Okay, first: People are still hung up on something I never talked about and actually explicitly wanted to sort-of-keep; Defensive Assists when on defence.
Of course Updo is great when you are being pressured. That's the fucking purpose of Updo.
I don't have an issue with my predictable Offense being read and DPd. I don't have a problem with jumping in and getting Antiaird. Again, that's sort of the idea behind a DP.
What I have an issue with is the DP assists, which are chrissakes great on defence (and they are that, despite the "But what if the opponent reads your assistcall and wasn't doing anything and you couldn't absolute guard and you block wrong" talk), also being a highly potent offensive tool and a monstrous space control option.
Yeah, if I jump at my opponent and predict he's gonna call Parasoul, then I see a shadow move in, then I can block, call my own assist with proper timing and get to start my pressure game + his Parasoul took a bunch of hits to the face.
The problem is, when I'm stuck in the corner and the opponents Val is rolling me with IAD j.HP / c.LK / Throw / Pushblock baits / etc while covering the holes in her offence with an invincible Hitbox, there's no "Well just bait it lel", "L2Countercall noop", whatever.
The problem I have with invincible assists is that they can be called at pretty much any time. They keep the opponent from going in (space control in neutral), they keep the opponent from halting your offence (invincible hitbox with frame advantage on block), they keep his offence from rolling over you (obvious), and they are prime countercall assists on top.
The problem in balancing this is that the things which make the offence/neutral great are also a crucial part of the defence. For example you could remove the invinc from them and then yeah, they're not very scary on offence anymore (just a big hitbox you can punch), their neutral control is greatly weakened, but clearly this would also kill their defensive capabilities, which I, repeating myself, do *not* want.
That's why we got the current experiment: Reduced blockstun is not much of a deal in neutral and on defence, but weakens the lockdown part of them considerably. Making you unable to convert easily off of them keeps them as a "GET THE FUCK OFF ME"-tool, and while the reward for landing one of them in the opponents face is smaller, the main reward (not getting hit, gaining breathing space) is untouched. At the same time, they're still strong neutral tools, but you have to call them with more consideration as to what the opponent is gonna do + have to expect to a certain point whether the assist is gonna hit or not + can't be nilly willy safeish jumpblock assistcalling anymore (or well you can, but the reward for doing so is much much smaller)
Why should some assist options being weak negatively reflect on DP assists? The game wasn't balanced around every assist option being viable in every situation.
No, the game was balanced around HK Bomber being the only viable option in every situation. Heh.
Why should some assist options being weak negatively reflect on Vanilla Bomber? Why did that ever get nerfed?
I'm not talking about making s.LP assist viable, so I can't really follow your point (if there is any).
They're a core part of the gameplay and just like MvC2 Psylock and Cyclops and Commando, learning how to deal with them is a skill you just have to learn.
I still have to learn how to deal with them in the current build. It's just that my opponent is now forced to learn how to actually use them.
either make Bomber only one hit if blocked+lower knockdown or not invincible, but not both.
Non-invinc Bomber feels perfect. It's still really, really strong.
Nerf Updo/Bomber/Pillar, and Filia will always pick Hairball, Double will always pick Cilia Slide, and Para just won't be picked at all unless on point.
I think you are misinterpreting "Nerf" as "Remove". You would be surprised, but most people who played Fortune Pre-Nerfs are still playing her. She's still in the game, and she's still good!
Let's get an MvC2 thing out of the way...Psylocke/CapCom/Cyke/Doom are the characters primarily picked for their assists that are not god tier on point. Doom is basically a DP assist as well as chip (he hits in like 2f or something, beats rushdown often, and eats projectiles). Of the good point chars, Cable has a DP assist and it is always chosen. Everyone else is a tossup, but you can bet if they had DP assists those would be always-used as well. DP assist is the way to go there too, it just so happens that the god tier point characters mostly don't have one. The fact remains that of the characters who are added to teams specifically as assists, they are all DPs. And CapCom is vulnerable for 2f before he hits, as well, which makes no difference for choosing him because the utility and damage is so high.
Uh, so this is supposed to back up my statement of "DP assists are most likely too strong", right? Because I can't really pull much else out of it.
Or is this "DP assists were busted good in MvC2 and this is based on MvC2 so clearly we should also have busted DP assists"?
DP assists are more versatile and overall stronger than other ones, is what you say. Is what I said.
I read from that: Maybe they should get a nerf
You read from that: I'm against nerfing, because people should l2p
?? Can't follow this logic, sorry.
IMO every team game is going to have some kind of assist that's the best and have that character be picked primarly for their utility [..]
That sort of 'utility character' archetype is pretty interesting to me and something that doesn't occur in games that don't have assists or DHCs.
- Every Teamgame is gonna have a 'best' assist and a utility character
- You like utility characters
Tell you what: After DP assists are nerfed and Butt is not retarded anymore, SG will still be a teamgame.
So something else will be the best assist, so someone else will become said 'utility character'
So you're really not missing out on anything, things just shift a bit. Woop?
I would prefer an experiment on longer assist lockouts for hitting the assist or longer startup (i.e., a few extra frames of vulnerability before move startup) to any experiments that just hit individual moves or characters and mess with specific teams and players.
The very POINT of the changes is that current Butt is dumb beyond belief and DP assists are too good.
Of course a nerf to them only affects them. I don't really get the reasoning behind "Updo is too good, so lets globally nerf stuff and make Peacock c.HP assist worse".
this new update......not liking it LMFAO
Loving posts like this
People who like the change: People who prefer not to use DP assists in their team order.
Actually I want a DP, is why I want this change ^_^
Everybody who doesn't have a grounded overhead has [..] a command throw.
Command Throws don't grab the assist, so there's no actual risk in calling it. Worst case you get thrown which would've happened anyway.
On the other hand, the mere presence of a DP assist forces your opponent to throw a whole fucking lot more, not just making him more predictable but also weakening his offense tremendously due to 50% scaling on everything.
Lol, double for roll tier with this change now.
You are just who I needed
What's so difficult to come up with solutions for these assists?
What's so difficult in using different assists or calling assist better? Have you actually tried using the changed ones?
If they were from the start like they're now in the Beta, wouldn't you say "Just l2p" to people who'd request easier ways to combo out of DPs and invincibility on their lockdown assist?
Overall I don't see why anything needs to be changed right now other than to appease some skullfans that would rather complain than use the amazing training mode to learn workarounds for whatever situation is beating them.
We've been over this about 50 times, when will people who can't play their character's neutral and just rely on getting assist converts have to l2p?
How many Peacocks are there who don't just drop the stick after you touch them once, followed by snapping Double/Bella in and killing their assist char?
How many Valentines can actually land hits without needing an assist?
How many players in general are capable of defending vs real pressure without Updo calls?
How many of this game's "top players" use neither one of the armor punches, nor a DP, nor Butt assist? I think I count 2. If they're so easy to handle, why is everyone using them?
Or, to simply repeat the question:
If Copter was fully invincible and +5 on block, would you tell someone who says "Yo, I think this is a bit too good" with a shrug "Well l2p!! There are ways to beat it, for example: Call your own Cerecopter"?
lk bomber could just have it's active frame invincibility removed, cause why even run it if it has no invincibility at all seeing as how it has like no range.
Aside from it still being lockdown (how much range do Painwheel c.MP, Filia c.MK, Squigly c.HP, tbc have?) I don't think there's an inborn law that forces LK Bomber to be a good assist?
There are much more cases of single assists being far better (or at least more used) than all other versions, why that'd be so terrible for Butt I can't follow (Filia L/M Hairball, Fortune L/M Fiber, etc)
