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Europe PC Danisen League: EU Edition

Second thing - in new post for reasons.

Why is this so dead!?
If you have grown uninterested, please at least write *why* that is the case?!
A ton of people signed up, but many of these haven't even played 1(!) game :/

I didn't play in this for a while because I dropped Peacock and have been practicing up Fortune;
doesn't make too much sense to keep playing a team in Danisen that I don't actually want to play.
Now with the teamswitch somewhat settled, I will be back to playing..

Quite apparently, this isn't met with half the actual enthusiasm as it got positive reception.
I have some ideas how to make this more appealing to people, but if I don't know what the respective issues are, it is hard to actually do something..

---

If the problem is just that it is too much of a hassle (ask "strangers" to play, be serious about the win, report score afterwards), there is very little we can fix :/

But if it's eg "I am scared of things", there are a plethora of adjustments that could make it a bit less.. pressuring.

For example:
- Everyone now starts in Dan 0 rather than Dan 1.
- Dan 0 players can challenge other Dan 0s, and also Dan 1s
- You get into Dan 1 by winning 2(3?) games.
- You can't fall from Dan 1 into Dan 0
- Losses plain aren't counted

This way you could "massgame" yourself up to Dan1, with no fret for the results, to ease into the entire thing a bit -
You would still get into Dan1 with a score of 2-50, so you can just play in a very relaxed atmosphere and try to get accustomed to the system.

This would have the additional advantage that there is an actual reason to keep playing a team (currently if I am in D1 and play say Parasoul/Filia and lose my first 3 games, I can either try to climb from -3, or say "okay I switch teams, Filia/Parasoul now!" and am back to 0).

I have a lot of other ideas..
There's stuff like "When you get demoted, you still are at +1/+2 points rather than 0, so it's less of a hassle",
or "You go up a rank with +2, get demoted with -3" to make it a bit easier to climb ranks,
or whatever

Really, there are many possibilities to make this entire thing a more "rewarding" prospect - which may make it more entertaining.

---

But!
As it stands currently, I am not sure whether most of those "other ideas" (I like the Dan 0 one) would actually do anything -
If we had four people at Dan2 on -2 points, who now don't want to play anymore due to being afraid of falling down,
We could consider such things - but currently the problem lies more in 8 people having played ZERO matches, with a further five sitting on 1 game each;
and those guys surely don't have problems with how easy it is to "fall down a rank".

Maybe an additional rankup option from Dan1 that goes something like "Instead of a +3 score, you can also go from Dan1 to Dan2 by scoring 10 wins"?
Similar to the Dan0 idea, this would make it more fun for "beginners", who get a realistic shot of at least sometimes getting into a higher rank, rather than dancing around at +1/0/-1 points all the time (Kuro is not a beginner, but still a decent example here)?!

Again, the problem here is: I don't know why people don't play matches, so it is difficult for me to come up with solutions that make it more fun for you.

Some people might just have lost interest in the game right after they entered,
or their connection mucks up nowadays, or they got busy, or anything else.
But I can't/don't believe this is the case for *everybody*.

So, please: Write what you dislike about the system!

It is a community effort, so the community can change it. No rule is set in stone.

---

Pinging people to call them..

@Woofly @Thalq @DimitriAwsometh @RavenSama @Yallus @chickenwithtie
@shadowparrot @Darren20500 @Armageddon11 @Platnuu @Rice @Ouhogen @Thrasher08
 
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As a bonus mention (Triplepost yay!):

Prior to every single Skullbats match you are playing against someone in your Dan,
you could ask them "Do you mind also counting this for Danisen?" and play both (Danisen+SBats) at the same time.

That would have been, *in just the last Skullbats* (provided nobody ranks up/down in the middle of it, too lazy to check for that)

Dan 2:
Crux - Sanji

Dan 1:
Woofly - Pombear
Woofly - Raven
ViVr - Darren20500
ViVr - Pombear
ViVr - Kuroonehalf
ViVr - Dragon-M
ViVr - Raven
Dragon-M - Raven
Dragon-M - Darren20500
Darren20500 - Woofly
Darren20500 - Raven
Kuroonehalf - Raven
Kuroonehalf - Pombear

14 Danisen Matches total!
(or perhaps I even forgot some..)

What keeps you from doing this?

E: This is of course assuming that people played the same team in SBats as they signed up to Danisen with, but for most this is probably a correct assumption to make
 
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I joined because some pals pushed me a bit but I'm not interested in this at all.
Studying and art suck me completely so I currently have no interest in playing this game competitively.
I forgot about this thing and may pick it up again for summer or something
 
I think there's a fundamental problem in the informal nature of this entire thing. Like, you can challenge anyone you want and deny any game you want, what's to stop you from just accepting matches with players you can easily beat and denying higher skilled players? If Peck comes up to me and asks me for some Danisen matches, I can be damn sure I'm gonna get my ass whooped, lose rank and I'm thus more likely to dodge it.

With that in mind, the ranks that come out of this can't be judged as entirely accurate and people are thus less than likely to bother with it.
 
My computer has been dead for a few weeks so I haven't had much access.

I'm certain I've had at least one match however, its unlikely that I will have matches often.
 
Completely lost interest in this.

The format being BO3 is the main reason.
Will probably come back to it if it changes to FT5 (or FT3, at the very least).
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Why is this so dead!?
If you have grown uninterested, please at least write *why* that is the case?!
I don't like playing retail, there's only one other person in my dan, and I'm experimenting with different teams and probably won't stick with the one I signed up with.

If it wasn't for those things I'd keep playing. I don't have any problems with the format at all.
 
To be honest, I'm too busy studying and playing other games to do this.
I might come back when I've got more solid time.
 
Agreeing with IsaVulpes here.

Anything that brings some fresh activity into the Danisen is a good thing. Some rules will be indeed changed/altered to try and make it more interesting for everyone. That said, nothing helps with making something more appealing for the community than feedback from it!

Don't be shy, speak up your ideas/objections/etc.
IsaVulpes said:
Prior to every single Skullbats match you are playing against someone in your Dan,
you could ask them "Do you mind also counting this for Danisen?" and play both (Danisen+SBats) at the same time.

E: This is of course assuming that people played the same team in SBats as they signed up to Danisen with, but for most this is probably a correct assumption to make
A good suggestion, I for one sure plan on asking people from my Dan about this during Skullbats.
 
Hey,

I'd like to join the Danisen League too. My team is Painwheel/Filia/Cerebella.

Sorry for being a bit late to the party, I haven't been playing a lot lately.
 
Done, you're now added and ready to gain ranks.
 
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I wanted to answer this stuff a while ago, but forgot about it. Now I remember! So here goes:

chickenwithtie said:
I currently have no interest in playing this game competitively.
I honestly see Danisen more as a place to just 'meet up' with other people from the EU community than a "competitive" thing.
Usually my Danisen matches go like this: Play 2-3 games Danisen win or lose, ask "Hey, do you wanna just keep playing?", other guy says "Sure", and then we play another 15 matches

Something like Skullbats is neat, but only once per week, randomized, a serious time commitment, and has a ton of downtime.
This here is -to me- a big group for all of EU to play each other, and tacked onto it is a more-or-less useful measuring system, so people don't run into vastly better opponents (two people who both have 10 matches played each and are both still in Dan1 are likely to be of a similar enough skill level).

Read: This isn't necessarily a "Huaarrrgh do your best or the sky will crash down" kinda thing, but more of a group of people who like to play SG.
If you have no interest in going beyond casual play, it is still perfectly fine to challenge someone and just play some matches.. you may get a loss on your scorecard, but there's no real reason to care about that?!

Pombear said:
I think there's a fundamental problem in the informal nature of this entire thing. Like, you can challenge anyone you want and deny any game you want, what's to stop you from just accepting matches with players you can easily beat and denying higher skilled players? If Peck comes up to me and asks me for some Danisen matches, I can be damn sure I'm gonna get my ass whooped, lose rank and I'm thus more likely to dodge it.
The base idea is:
1) If you are good enough to rank up (ie better than Dan 1), you will rank up quickly. After 3 games, MrPeck was 3-0 and in Dan2 - there he can't challenge Dan1s anymore, so that problem is solved
2) If you are good enough to beat Dan1 players but scared of someone like MrPeck, this won't work for too long - You will also get to D2, and then you plain can't avoid all decent players, because you too can only challenge people in Dan2! At some point you will run out of people to fight when you dodge everyone decent.
So if you want to continue climbing, you will have to challenge decent players (other Dan 2s), and if you do manage to win there, you will be in Dan 3 with just zeknife and MrPeck and that's that.
3) At the same time, someone who will accept matches against better players will lose, but (as mentioned before) these "better players" will have left Dan1 quickly - he may 'start' from -3 instead of 0 now, but in the end that doesn't matter all too much.

THAT SAID, I do agree there is somewhat of an issue with "obviously superior" players in the low ranks.
Dan1s will prefer to avoid fighting better people (making it annoying to find opponents), the good players 'feel bad', and, what's even more crucial, this thing can repeat quite easily.
Normally the system works as outlined in 1), zeknife wins his matches and then zeknife is out of Dan1 and done. BUT! If he were to change team, he would start in D1 again, and that's where it gets iffy.

Like, I am in Dan 1 right now again, and I don't really want to challenge anyone in there because I'm 99% sure I will win -
Essentially I am just waiting for someone to be "stupid" enough to accept my request for a Danisen match and then farm a point off them.
.. and I'm not even very good. If MrPeck were to change his team, this problem would be notably larger -
he can essentially challenge anyone in the first two Dans and always know he is going to win before the match even started, which makes playing this a bit of a 'chore'.
I do want to rank up, and I do know D1 people who would likely accept a Danisen match vs. me without a second thought (say, ViVr), but I don't want to punish them for being nice enough to accept this match, so I kinda don't even get to the challenge part.

---

Tossing a suggestion into the room: Players who are known to be clearly better than Dan1/2 can just start in a higher rank on request.
That makes it simpler for someone like Woofly, who can now just start from Dan3 instead of being forced to beg people until he gets the 6 games he needs,
And makes it more fun for Dan1 players, who when requested to play can somewhat expect to fight someone of a similar skill level rather than getting mutilated.

Of course a potential downside of this is 'bad blood' (in the sense that eg I ask Muro "Hi I want to start in Dan3" and then Muro says "Nah you suck too much for that" and then I get angry) - so I don't know how exactly to handle this; finetuning would likely be necessary. Just to have the idea out there.

RexLeRouge said:
Completely lost interest in this.

The format being BO3 is the main reason.
Will probably come back to it if it changes to FT5 (or FT3, at the very least).

Another Suggestion: Since we have a "Default Retail, but if both players agree, Beta is perfectly fine" rule - is there anything going against "Default BO3, but if both players agree, any other format is fine too"?
It's impossible to check for Muro anyway, and I don't really see the problem in "*As long as both players are fine with it*, just play FT10 or whatever"? Of course, as with the other rules (such as "play a lag test match prior"), one has to be absolutely clear in what one wants (instead of one guy going 2-0, leaving+reporting, and then the next guy posting "WTF? We had agreed on FT5!") - but that should be doable?

A potential issue would be that this "splits the community" - as in, some people will demand FT3, others want FT2, a small group wants FT5, and then the FT5ers never play with the FT2ers.. but:
1) This is already kinda happening, just instead of "I want FT3, I will only play other people who want FT3" it is "I want FT3, I won't play at all"
2) It's not like we are currently super active and this would threaten killing something. If we get enough active players to argue over this, that would already be a hugely impressive improvement~

Mr Peck said:
I don't like playing retail, there's only one other person in my dan, and I'm experimenting with different teams and probably won't stick with the one I signed up with.
These are very valid (well aside from perhaps the Retail one - I haven't met anyone in Danisen or Skullbats aside from Meiynas Snowlag who demanded retail), and there's little one can do about them :(
The previous suggestions may perhaps help with getting Woofly up to 3 and into the mood of playing; beyond that .. I don't know. I guess you have returned to the team, so that's one problem out of the way :~
 
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Oh yeah an additional note @Muro, I would prefer if the Danisen Sheet had characters like the Team Popularity Database;
ie when someone play Duo, it's listed as X/---/Y, rather than X/Y/---, as the two chars in a Duo are closer to Point/Anchor than Point/Mid (when compared to a Trio).
Would make it a bit easier to tell at a glance who is playing what .. just name it Point/Middle/Anchor instead of Char1/Char2/Char3, I suppose?

E: Also you can just delete my old team rather than keeping it there in Red, I won't play it again I don't think and those are the rules!
 
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I'm in favor of trying out changes (even some bold ones) when it might bring in some life into the League. It's always preferable to a League with solid rules yet no activity, after all. That said:
IsaVulpes said:
Tossing a suggestion into the room: Players who are known to be clearly better than Dan1/2 can just start in a higher rank on request.
That makes it simpler for someone like Woofly, who can now just start from Dan3 instead of being forced to beg people until he gets the 6 games he needs,
And makes it more fun for Dan1 players, who when requested to play can somewhat expect to fight someone of a similar skill level rather than getting mutilated.
Interesting idea. A really good player climbing up over new players is awkward for both sides. Him ending up in a higher Dan is only a matter of time, and might be better for collective morale if done without having to give a bunch of beginners negative points. Straight into action vs players on his level and all.

So, I'm willing to allow this, though it needs to be said that it will only happen on request by the player (i.e. I won't force a good player into Dan 2/3 if he prefers to climb up there normally). Also, each case will be treated individually - I can see how well known player X deserves to be in Dan3 with his main team, but not necessarily with this new experimental team I've never seen him use; player Y in my judgement might not be good enough to be automatically moved to Dan3 given what other players are there atm, but can be safely placed in Dan2; and so on.

Also, needless to say I'll assume a player who'll request this does so because he wants to actively play in that higher tier. I would be very disappointed if he was simply content with that tier and just stayed there without going for any matches vs other players.
IsaVulpes said:
Another Suggestion: Since we have a "Default Retail, but if both players agree, Beta is perfectly fine" rule - is there anything going against "Default BO3, but if both players agree, any other format is fine too"?
It's impossible to check for Muro anyway, and I don't really see the problem in "*As long as both players are fine with it*, just play FT10 or whatever"? Of course, as with the other rules (such as "play a lag test match prior"), one has to be absolutely clear in what one wants (instead of one guy going 2-0, leaving+reporting, and then the next guy posting "WTF? We had agreed on FT5!") - but that should be doable?

A potential issue would be that this "splits the community" - as in, some people will demand FT3, others want FT2, a small group wants FT5, and then the FT5ers never play with the FT2ers.. but:
1) This is already kinda happening, just instead of "I want FT3, I will only play other people who want FT3" it is "I want FT3, I won't play at all"
2) It's not like we are currently super active and this would threaten killing something. If we get enough active players to argue over this, that would already be a hugely impressive improvement~
Yeah, I have no problem with that. FT2 is the default, but if both opponents are fine with it, it can very well be a FT20. A long, preferably recorded/streamed set for a point between higher dans sounds pretty hype, too!
Just make sure you both make a clear agreement on it before the set starts, so that no one feels cheated afterwards.
IsaVulpes said:
Oh yeah an additional note @Muro, I would prefer if the Danisen Sheet had characters like the Team Popularity Database;
ie when someone play Duo, it's listed as X/---/Y, rather than X/Y/---, as the two chars in a Duo are closer to Point/Anchor than Point/Mid (when compared to a Trio).
Would make it a bit easier to tell at a glance who is playing what .. just name it Point/Middle/Anchor instead of Char1/Char2/Char3, I suppose?
I see the logic in that. Sure, why not. It is now done.
IsaVulpes said:
E: Also you can just delete my old team rather than keeping it there in Red, I won't play it again I don't think and those are the rules!
You can't play it anymore indeed, but it did earn a 2nd Dan, give other players negative points, earn its stats and has its entries in match history, so I figure that as long as it isn't too distracting, I'd like to keep abandoned teams in the database (albeit marked as red to make them stand out as no longer valid).

---------------------------------------------------
SUMMARY/TLDR - NEW/MODIFIED RULES:
- A known player can on request be automatically moved to a higher Dan (treated individually) to avoid gaining points at the expense of beginners,
- Every match for is a FT2 by default. However, if both players want and agree, it can be FT3, FT5 or any other format,
- (not mentioned above but only reasonably in our smaller EU community) To enter with a second team without abandoning the previous one, your first team needs to reach Dan 4 (previously was Dan 5). To enter a third team without deleting the first two, both of them need to be Dan 4, and so on for following teams.
 
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Two more modified rules:

1. Once per team*, a known player can on request be automatically moved to a higher Dan (treated individually) to avoid gaining points at the expense of beginners. He is then placed in the new Dan at (-1) points, so that he has to work a little harder for the next promotion to make up for this free level up.

(*I'd expect it's only common sense that if someone requests Dan 3 and loses enough times to drop to Dan 2 he won't request getting back into Dan 3 for free, but just making sure we're on the same page)​

2. (a rule alteration to make losing a rank less punishing):
When dropping to a lower rank, the player is set at (+1) points (instead of (0) how it was previously). For example:
A player at Dan 2(0) wins three sets -> he is now Dan 3(0).
A player at Dan 3(0) loses three sets -> he is now Dan 2(+1).
 
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Muro said:
You can't play it anymore indeed, but it did earn a 2nd Dan, give other players negative points, earn its stats and has its entries in match history, so I figure that as long as it isn't too distracting, I'd like to keep abandoned teams in the database (albeit marked as red to make them stand out as no longer valid).
Mhh I guess I get the thought behind this

My "issues" with this are
1) My current team looks a bit weird with the [2] there. I would prefer it Old Teams were noted as smth like [O.1], [O.2] etc, while the respective current team is just the nick (imagine I switched teams a bunch, I wouldn't want to run around with my current team being IsaVulpes[14], that just looks silly IMO (of course that will have to be the case for multiple D4 teams, but can't do much about that)
2) While the "Red" makes it clear that something is different about the team, it makes it uuuhh.. /too/ clear. Like, when anyone opens that list, their eyes are instantly pulled to the one team in the list that isn't allowed to play anymore; that seems a bit backwards. I would recommend instead to unbold my nick there, remove the Link (as I will always have at least one active team with the Link, so it's not needed), and add another column (under M) of the sort "Special Notes", where that team gets a Red "Deleted". That sounds "obvious enough" for me, while being less on an instant smash in the face.

Bonus Note, perhaps it would make sense in the Match History to note those you-approved RankUps
As in, "Dan: 1 - Winner: IsaVulpes - Score: + - Loser: RankUp to Dan 2", with the respective Date/Time
Right now I'm listed as in Dan2, with 1 win, 0 losses, and -1 Score. That looks a slight bit confusing; a note for that in the Match History may help.

E: Man, you are quick at updating. And I didn't even get to grumble at the Usa!

E2: I just noticed that my 1) Suggestion WOULD be a hassle for the match history updates. Bleh. Keep it as is then, I guess
 
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I'll admit I'm not content with the attention-grabbing redness of abandoned teams either, it's definitely a temporary measure.
I'll experiment a bit and try to figure out how to still keep 'em in the database without them being distracting from the non-archived content.

Same for promotions on request. Atm I keep them in a chart in match history, might eventually be tweaked into something better aesthetically.

Also, here's the recording from our tonight's set with IsaVulpes.
00:00 - 09:54 is the proper FT3 we agreed upon, everything after that is casual matches I recorded as well because why not.
Obligatory reminder to watch in 720p for the 60fps experience.
 
Done and done.
Muro said:
1. Once per team*, a known player can on request be automatically moved to a higher Dan (treated individually) to avoid gaining points at the expense of beginners. He is then placed in the new Dan at (-1) points, so that he has to work a little harder for the next promotion to make up for this free level up.
As per this rule, Mr Peck's new team is placed in Dan 2(-1).

(I'll be sure to eventually find a better place for abandoned teams than keeping them in the current rank while red-colored, promise)
 
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A few things:

1) I'm changing my team. Old: Peacock/Band/Bella. New: Peacock/Band/Beowulf.
As this is the team I always play now, it allows me to ask Skullbats opponents for sets to count for the Danisen when applicable, so you can expect that (+I encourage you to do the same!).
As there are currently many players of a level comparable to my own in Dan 1, I'll keep this new team in 1(0) and go up from there.

2)
IsaVulpes said:
I would prefer it Old Teams were noted as smth like [O.1], [O.2] etc, while the respective current team is just the nick
As of now, this suggestion is how it indeed works.

3) Abandoned teams are placed in a small table under the main one.

4) Moved the "Steam" column to be the second one rather than the first. Makes human errors less likely to happen while sorting the data.

5) RULE CHANGE
Players in Dan 1 can't go below 0 points. So, a loss for a player at Dan 1(0) does not affect his score. What this entails:
- All players who were Dan 1(-1), 1(-2) and 1(-3) have been moved up to 1(0) and won't fall lower.
- A player can't end up in a worse position than he was when he entered the league (it's only 1(0) or higher).
- Therefore, eliminates the chance to be that guy who gets negative points in Dan 1 and changes his team only to effortlessly be back at 1(0).
- Or from the other side, allows players who get losses in Dan 1 to change a team when they honestly want to without fear of looking like that guy.
- Hopefully prevents people from getting demotivated easily and leaving the league.
- Again, this is only for Dan 1, as it's the "entry level" Dan. Negative points work normally in higher Dans.

6) Lastly, Mr Peck started an initiative of weekly streamed and commentated Danisen sets. Be sure to check it out here:
http://skullheart.com/index.php?threads/eu-weekly-danisen-stream-thursdays-7pm-bst.7828/

Lets together shake this thing a bit, people.
If your current main team is different than what's in the table, be sure to simply request a change so you can be back in activity with us.
Follow Mr Peck's and my own example where starting with our main team from scratch is better than holding a higher inactive spot with a team we no longer play.
You'll get back in that spot (and higher) in no time!
 
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I'd very much like to sign up for this, now that I'm playing in Skullbats and so on.

Team: Peacock/Parasoul

Hopefully I can get some games soon.
 
I'd like to change my team to Painwheel/Squigly/Ms.Fortune.
 
Is there really any difference to this compared to Skullbats? Other than it being weekly you basically play with anyone you want, whenever you want with a BO3 and that's it?
 
Those are the only differences, but they're pretty significant. The only thing they have in common is that you're playing Skullgirls against European players in both of them.
 
I'm a new player and I would like to sign up for this.

I'll be going with Eliza / PW / Double for now.
 
LugerSpamDouble said:
Is there really any difference to this compared to Skullbats? Other than it being weekly you basically play with anyone you want, whenever you want with a BO3 and that's it?
Skullbats:
- Set time (Once per week, 8PM CEST)
- Random Opponents
- You can pick whatever chars you like
- Takes ~1.5 hours
- 7x Bo3

Danisen:
- Whenever you like
- Pick your opponent
- Locked teams
- Takes however long your Set takes, generally short
- 1x BoWhat-You-Want

They basically have nothing to do with each other at all, other than both being for EU players
 
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[FT7] 1st Dan: Muro wins vs Rex 7-4
 
Nanomachin said:
I'm a new player and I would like to sign up for this.

I'll be going with Eliza / PW / Double for now.
Am I guessing correctly this is you?
 
Ah yes, forgot to put my steam profile there for some reason, sorry.
 
So I would like to change my current team from Peacock/Bigband to Beowulf/Peacock/Bigband. thanks.
 
@Woofly changed his team from Valentine/Eliza/Parasoul to Eliza/Valentine/Parasoul.
Also, as per the cited rule, he's being placed in Dan 2(-1).
- Once per team, a known player can on request be automatically moved to a higher Dan (treated individually) to avoid gaining points at the expense of beginners.
He is then placed in the new Dan at (-1) points, so that he has to work a little harder for the next promotion to make up for this free level up.
 
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