Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?

[Broken Loose]

Cool video but first of all, I didn't say corner carry is impossible but it is more difficult for some characters without resources without building substantial undizzy meter especially if you're further than midscreen. I also acknowledged that people still died in two touches anyway. My issue is with momentum and pressure while capitalizing on every hit confirm and I see a hindrance with a strict undizzy. Putting aside the counterhit and the starter, let's analyze the end of your reset combo: your undizzy meter is about 340 when your opponent's next character jumps in. If you hit that character, by the time you've reached stage 5 again, you're only going to get in what, 7 hits of your combo? So what do you do after the kill? You just block and wait for the stun meter to drain long enough before trying to do the same combo again? People complaining about combo length equate MDE and past versions of ultimately being a 1 player experience/turnbased RPG. Well now because of Undizzy, it's like the game has an ATB system and you're waiting for your turn to attack again, how fitting. But I digress, how does that not affect negatively momentum again? You don't find that bothersome in the least? Sure, you've managed to kill a character in two touches but we also essentially have an ingame referee meddling with the match telling players to "break it up" just when when you've successfully put your opponent on the ropes and turn the tides in your your favor. Think how disheartening such an instance would be if you've only got Peacock left on your team and your opponent still has 2 healthy characters left. It's easy to just look at a portion of the issue from training mode and go "well, there is low resources, carry and damage...I guess that about wraps it up!" and then fail to also consider the momentum of the match and how a strict Undizzy affects that. The fact people want the system to go ever further than that astounds me.

It took half a fucking second for the gauge to deplete.

No, seriously, it goes down at 10/frame. By the time Parasoul's landing animation was complete, almost all of it had drained.

If you seriously think that your momentum is negatively affected by half a second of opponent control, you never had momentum. Not to mention that part of momentum is being able to control what your opponent has to guess (as demonstrated by that video), so it's trivial to set up a situation in which you (A) do another counter-hit or (B) start another combo that ends in an early reset. All you have to do is set up a grounded mixup on incoming and enjoy either a virtually empty gauge or a completely empty gauge if there's a counter-hit.

I'm beginning to think that the only thing you know how to do is meaty throw as a reset based off your complaints. You play Valentine. You can do SF4-style corner crossups that give your opponent a mere 10-20 frames to react, and during this time they have lost 100-200 undizzy. You can do j.LK crossunders, j.HP crossups, orange vial trolling, command throw mixups, TONS OF SHIT that gives the opponent reaction time which depletes the gauge entirely. If reaction time is viewed in your eyes as a hopeless loss of momentum like your "turn" is finished, then go back to MvC3 or SDE.

There is a universe in which your complaints are reasonable, but that universe doesn't have the gauge deplete at 10 points/frame, evaporate on counter-hit, or clear on wakeup/burst. You even have options that enable you to start from 0 at will. Your complaints of "the game doesn't have momentum anymore" are about as valid as complaining that you can't throw the opponent since the tech window is 17f.

 

[Jason]

Before we had an undizzy gauge, the 10 undizzy decay per second was a bit probematic. It was so fast that changing the timing of your reset by just a couple of frames was enough to totally change your followup combo and it felt really random when your opponent got to burst (especially when you add CH undizzy bonus).

But now that we have a visual indicator of how much undizzy room you have left to play with, this isn't really a problem anymore.

 

[POS Industries]

Just wanted to address a comment a long time ago that those who want to play neutral should play Peacock. Yeah she is a certain type of cheezy zoning neutral, like O. Sagat from ST or V-13 from Blazblue: CT or Cable from MvC2. She is annoying as hell to fight against and terribly boring to play. Even Peacock players seem annoyed when they have to face a Peacock themself. If winning was my only goal I'd probably pick her up, but I play Skullgirls to have fun.

Yeah, lord knows I don't play this game for fun or anything. All I do is win win win, but it's just so boring despite all that ceaseless winning I'm doing with Peacock all the time. That's how I became Evo champion after all, because Peacock is the winningest character, but I never enjoyed a second of it.

Tell me what is this "fun" you speak of? Surely it is just something I cannot objectively experience by playing Peacock.

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

snip

I get what you're saying, but Undizzy decays in like, what? 1 second? It's hardly a matter of waiting around for your opponent to start attacking you it is simply to stop the joint forces of half health (or more) combos and resets together to defeat an opponent with an absolute victory. You can still effectively finish a character with the Undizzy limit low enough to finish the next character in the same way if you reset earlier, giving the opponent more opportunity to escape as they have more chances to defend against resets, so it becomes a decision of that wonderful thing called risk-reward.

In MDE long combos are just simply more useful than short ones due to their safety and damage, in the current beta build long (relative to other current beta stuff) combos still have the safety and still do more damage, but if you use those then you are forced to give the opponent that 1 second or so of breathing room when their next character comes in, assuming you don't immediately start with an Undizzy burst-bait.

So, once again, the change pretty much just comes down to the encouragement of using short combos and resetting early, however you still have the option to do 2 touch kills at the costs you have previously detailed, if you ask me, that's more satisfactory for the other half of the community that liked 2 touch kills than the only option being to reset early.

Just wanted to address a comment a long time ago that those who want to play neutral should play Peacock. Yeah she is a certain type of cheezy zoning neutral, like O. Sagat from ST or V-13 from Blazblue: CT or Cable from MvC2. She is annoying as hell to fight against and terribly boring to play. Even Peacock players seem annoyed when they have to face a Peacock themself. If winning was my only goal I'd probably pick her up, but I play Skullgirls to have fun.

I find Peacock is incredibly fun to play against, even when the matchup is out of my favor (Bella v Peacock is one of my favorite things to do in Skullgirls), likewise playing as Peacock is fun, it's not mindless play unless you feel like getting pounded by anyone who knows what they're doing.

Also if you wanted wins you'd be better off using Fortune.

 

[blufang]

Yeah but with Fortune you have to learn decent length combos to do well. Peacock can get far at lower levels with smart use of her various projectiles and teleporting at opportune times. Combo into Argus Agony whenever you land something.

Sorry for calling her boring, that is merely my opinion I didn't mean for it come off as a factual statement. I should have worded it better.

From Seth Killian "Sheathed Sword"

"In many games, though, it’s possible to lay traps or perform tricks that must be dealt with before the actual conflict can start. What I mean is that it’s possible to throw up brick walls that the opponent must break through before the back-and-forth strategic play, the “fun part,” can even begin. If an enemy must first defeat three brick walls before even facing you in actual battle, then he’ll be weakened—or even defeated—before real battling begins."

So essentially Peacock is all about this. That's why I compared her to those other characters.

 

[POS Industries]

That seems like it's running off the idea that what zoners do isn't "strategic play" or that skill is only determined by combos or just what a player does with punches and kicks rather than ranged attacks. But we're getting sidetracked.

I agree with you about the complaint that people who want more neutral should play Peacock, mind you. She's pretty much the most neutral-centric character, but she's not for everyone. It shouldn't be the only remotely effective option available for people who don't want to play "Long-Ass Combos: The Game."

 

[blufang]

Yeah that was what I was trying to say, and why I found the statement of "Play Peacock if u want neutral" so repulsive. She isn't for everyone, just like Bella or any of the characters isn't for everyone.

 

[Dime]

Yeah but with Fortune you have to learn decent length combos to do well. Peacock can get far at lower levels with smart use of her various projectiles and teleporting at opportune times. Combo into Argus Agony whenever you land something.

Sorry for calling her boring, that is merely my opinion I didn't mean for it come off as a factual statement. I should have worded it better.

From Seth Killian "Sheathed Sword"

"In many games, though, it’s possible to lay traps or perform tricks that must be dealt with before the actual conflict can start. What I mean is that it’s possible to throw up brick walls that the opponent must break through before the back-and-forth strategic play, the “fun part,” can even begin. If an enemy must first defeat three brick walls before even facing you in actual battle, then he’ll be weakened—or even defeated—before real battling begins."

So essentially Peacock is all about this. That's why I compared her to those other characters.

You have no clue what you are referencing here. The sheathed sword refers to inoptimal play that once defeated is almost never seen again or is only seen in extremely limited form.

Taken from a3 this would be gief jumping up and down with j.hp and figuratively asking you what you are going to do about it. Or from a2, rose sticking out cr.mp and totally killing most of your options. You arent playing the game yet.

But even that is just one mans opinion.

The difference with peacock here is that her optimal play is to keepaway as default. Therefor this isnt a sheathed sword.

If anything the sheathed sword would be peacock playing rushdown before she was forced to abandon it in light of her having to actually play keepaway, since keepaway is what she is best at.

The sheathed sword is in essence her sandbagging and not allowing you to see her keepaway game, but instead make you deal with her rushdown before you even get to play the "real" game of trying to get in on her while shes trying to keep you out.

Give almost any character in sg a dp assist and this a possible gameplay style... Such as val or bella playing keepaway.

 

[blufang]

Not really the same, cause Peacock is throwing projectiles that do chip damage and force the character to come to you. With a DP you can keep the character away, but you are not forcing them to approach. They can stay with their own DP assist and sit there if they want. Against Peacock you can't sit there, you have to move forward carefully and get close to her. Look at most Peacock matches (high level ones) and usually characters are frantically trying to get to Peacock where they have a marked advantage cause sitting away you'll just be taking chip damage or worse.

Summary: Comparing projectiles to DPs is ridiculous.

 

[Dime]

Yeah that was what I was trying to say, and why I found the statement of "Play Peacock if u want neutral" so repulsive. She isn't for everyone, just like Bella or any of the characters isn't for everyone.

The problem is when your entire argument is "more neutral" yet you dont play peacock.

Its like saying more command grabs but not using bella.

Or more iad but not using an airdasher.

Or more flight but not using painwheel.


You come off as disingenuous.

I mean, seriously, if neutral was really your thing, then you WOULD play peacock.

I play her, i like neutral. I like getting up in peoples faces to. I like mixups.


I like command grabs but dont play bella...

Doesnt that mean that I'm being hypocritical? Nope. Becaus I'm not asking for more command grabs in this game.

If i thought that grabs were underrepresented in this game though and wanted more grabby action than what i was getting, and STILL didnt play bella... Then YES, i would be being hypocritical when there is an obvious answer to my problem but instead i ask for every other character to become grabby because i dont like the grabby character.

Thats my basic problem with your arguments. You want the game to change to accommodate you, when the game has already taken steps to accommodate you, its just that you dont want to accept the help thats already been given in the form of a neutral heavy character.

 

[blufang]

Really is that so? So my only choice if I want to play neutral is a pure zoner. I get 1 character to choose even if a pure keepaway style isn't my type? Wonderful.

Also you are comparing character types (flight, grappler, rushdown) with something that isn't a character type. It is a state of the match, something that exists in various degrees in different games. Wanting more emphasis on the neutral game, generally considered the most tactical and cerebral part of matches, has nothing to do with character type.

 

[Dime]

Summary: Comparing projectiles to DPs is ridiculous.

Dp assists are projectiles that do chip damage...













I know im being pedantic there..
But seriously dude... C'mon. Watch any high level match of 2 players with dp assists and watch as they TRY to approach each other.

Also:

Not forcing them to approach?

Pick val with updo against bella with updo.

Make bella block a projectile.

Congratulations, youve just forced bella to come to you.
And before you think that I'm just using a stupid example, this is what actually happens. In fact im reminded of a fairly recent game i played against age with tomo spectating:


I had the life lead in 2v3 the clock was ticking down, he had double with some assist on point and i had filia on point with pillar assist

He had a bunch of red hp gaining back and i didnt. I still find it hard to approach lp shot spamming double with filia especially when its an easy confirm into car just for trying to instant airdash. So since i had the life lead i just sat there in crouchblock. Well, he sat there with his Life regen and he took the lead with about 3 seconds left to go... Much to my dismay.

An easy example of forcing someone to come to you:

The clock plus life lead. In sg if you get a life lead and you have updo... You have a big advantage. Because the opponent has to try to open you up with updo saying no and confirming into full combo. Or if not confirming, then putting you into blockstun and giving the keepaway character a chance at a mixup.

Long story short, peacock isnt the only character or team or strategic possibility that forces people to come to attack.

 

[Dime]

Really is that so? So my only choice if I want to play neutral is a pure zoner. I get 1 character to choose even if a pure keepaway style isn't my type? Wonderful.

Thats sg for ya...

This is a small roster after all. You would have a point if this were a 56 character game. But it isnt. I want more flight characters... But seeing as to how this game came out with only 8 playable characters, i feel happy that a flight one was even included.

Also, i dont know what team you use. But if you dont use updo or pillar assist you lose even more credibility for wanting more neutral since those assists force more neutral than any other thing in the game besides peacock.

 

[blufang]

1. Read my edit.

2. Really comparing Peacock's barrage of projectiles with any hit leading to Argus Agony to Val's deadly needle projectile? Lol. Look I can avoid Val's lame projectile all day if she just throws it out across the screen. Maybe Parasoul can force certain characters to come at them, cause her projectiles are pretty good.

3. Yes I lose all credibility for wanting more neutral if I use an anti air assist. Cause that forces as much nuetral as any fighting game can withstand.

 

[Mao]

Yeah but with Fortune you have to learn decent length combos to do well. Peacock can get far at lower levels with smart use of her various projectiles and teleporting at opportune times. Combo into Argus Agony whenever you land something.

#Skullgirls

Spoiler

amidoinitrite?

Also this thread in general man. Legitimately wondering if it was the best idea to make this in the first place

 

[Dime]

Peacock doesnt represent the character type that emphasizes neutral game and mid ranged play?

Could have fooled me. I guess keepaway isnt an archetype (cable Sagat spiral), and neither is a trap based character (yuri, dr.strange,Phoenix, trish) or a midrange character(dhalsim, yunsung, nightmare/Siegfried,astaroth or a projectile based character(Sagat,nu, blackheart) or a lockdown zoner (spiral) all of which peacock is.

Yet shes "boring".... Ok dude. Opinions are fine and all but when you have one of the best and most versatile zoning/neutral/keepaway/aggressive characters ever made and dont want to pick her in a game where everyone knows that character options are limited... You dont come off very well.

Also, yeah at chairman Maos point:

Fortune has great neutral game turtling with her head. And her great backdash for gaining space.

 

[keninblack]

Peacock can be whatever you want her to be.

Except your lover, but I mean thats just frowned upon live your life.

 

[blufang]

Again neutral game isn't a character type.

Definition: When both characters are upright and trying to get an advantage.

So in this game, at the beginning of the match regardless of what character I pick, we are in neutral. Both of us. As soon as I am forcing you to block, or I have you in a combo, it isn't neutral. In Skullgirls neutral game is landing one assist into combo, reset combo character dies. I'm sorry if I want a bit more neutral game than that, I must be crazy.

 

[destruction_adv]

Again neutral game isn't a character type.

Definition: When both characters are upright and trying to get an advantage.

So in this game, at the beginning of the match regardless of what character I pick, we are in neutral. Both of us. As soon as I am forcing you to block, or I have you in a combo, it isn't neutral. In Skullgirls neutral game is landing one assist into combo, reset combo character dies. I'm sorry if I want a bit more neutral game than that, I must be crazy.

I don't believe he's saying neutral game is a character type, I think he's saying that matches with peacock naturally have more neutral than matches with other characters. By extension I believe he's also insinuating that if one wants to play more neutral, one should play peacock.

I'm no mind reader though.

 

[keninblack]

Peacock throws a lot of shit.

So she's a "throws a lot of shit" character.

DATS DAT

 

[IsaVulpes]

Peacock can be whatever you want her to be.

Except your lover

 

[POS Industries]

pic

 

[Broken Loose]

I get what you're saying, but Undizzy decays in like, what? 1 second? It's hardly a matter of waiting around for your opponent to start attacking you it is simply to stop the joint forces of half health (or more) combos and resets together to defeat an opponent with an absolute victory. You can still effectively finish a character with the Undizzy limit low enough to finish the next character in the same way if you reset earlier, giving the opponent more opportunity to escape as they have more chances to defend against resets, so it becomes a decision of that wonderful thing called risk-reward.

Actually, in MDE, Undizzy decays from maximum in a second and a half. (4 combo points/frame from 350)

At its most strict in the Beta (CS3 Burst 240 max), it would decay fully in one third the time. (10cp/f from 240)

If we're going to talk about "momentum" between versions, the version with more momentum is the new one. The only thing the old one had was longer combos.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Undizzy decays at 8ud/f, and unlike in the previous version it doesn't reset to the border automatically
(In SQG, being at 1000 Undizzy, then combo drops means next frame you're at 346; in BB being at 1000 Ud then combo drops means next Frame you're at 992)

With Undizzy not building until Stage5, a 2f reset automatically means you get 3 chains (Ground>Air>Ground) even if you did a max length combo before, while Stage3 build means that you'll generally only get 2.

As a side plus, you can always just do 1:1 the same in SQG as in BB, end your combos at like 200 Ud, And even though the deterioration is half as fast,
You have way more Ud to work with (BB: 200 Ud, 5f reset = Sit at 160 Ud, can do +80 vs. SQG: 200 Ud, 5f reset = Sit at 180 Ud, can do +170 - and yeah, this isn't even counting Stage3 vs Stage5 yet)

 

[Broken Loose]

Undizzy decays at 8ud/f, and unlike in the previous version it doesn't reset to the border automatically
(In SQG, being at 1000 Undizzy, then combo drops means next frame you're at 346; in BB being at 1000 Ud then combo drops means next Frame you're at 992)

With Undizzy not building until Stage5, a 2f reset automatically means you get 3 chains (Ground>Air>Ground) even if you did a max length combo before, while Stage3 build means that you'll generally only get 2.

As a side plus, you can always just do 1:1 the same in SQG as in BB, end your combos at like 200 Ud, And even though the deterioration is half as fast,
You have way more Ud to work with (BB: 200 Ud, 5f reset = Sit at 160 Ud, can do +80 vs. SQG: 200 Ud, 5f reset = Sit at 180 Ud, can do +170 - and yeah, this isn't even counting Stage3 vs Stage5 yet)

I'm pretty sure the concession to reduce it to 8/f from 10/f was that burst isn't ever enabled until CS5 (which is the current Beta version). I was only using the strictest Beta in my series of examples.

Regardless, the point stands. The highest you'd ever get the gauge is 235 + a max-strength chain (all normals + 1 special), so 385. That would take 48 frames to decay fully, which is still half of MDE. And since you can only ever burst in CS5, you could do a 10-frame reset (which is around 1/3rd the average human's reaction time) and be able to get a "real" combo with room for at least 1 CS5 chain before doing it all over again.

 

[Shin ATproof]

If you seriously think that your momentum is negatively affected by half a second of opponent control, you never had momentum. Not to mention that part of momentum is being able to control what your opponent has to guess (as demonstrated by that video), so it's trivial to set up a situation in which you (A) do another counter-hit or (B) start another combo that ends in an early reset. All you have to do is set up a grounded mixup on incoming and enjoy either a virtually empty gauge or a completely empty gauge if there's a counter-hit.

I'm beginning to think that the only thing you know how to do is meaty throw as a reset based off your complaints. You play Valentine. You can do SF4-style corner crossups that give your opponent a mere 10-20 frames to react, and during this time they have lost 100-200 undizzy. You can do j.LK crossunders, j.HP crossups, orange vial trolling, command throw mixups, TONS OF SHIT that gives the opponent reaction time which depletes the gauge entirely. If reaction time is viewed in your eyes as a hopeless loss of momentum like your "turn" is finished, then go back to MvC3 or SDE.

So I point out a very likely scenario that is of concern regarding momentum and your reply is to say "it's not a problem because I said so". Excellent riposte!

The character jumps in and lands and over a second goes by before the undizzy fully drains. That's 60 frames going by of nothing, that's an eternity in this game. You calling my skills with Valentine into question, I can think of situations where I use things such orange vial and still run into undizzy on a reset. Also if my undizzy meter reached 340+ and only lost 100~200 for my reset, my combo from my reset is still going to be a lot shorter. My momentum has been negatively affected despite landing a legitimate opener on an incoming character. I'm not doing a continuous combo, I'm starting an entirely new combo and the game is still forcing neutral into the game by making me back off. Now I could try a undizzy burst bait but that's still a lame gimmick at the end of the day considering we can now see the goddamned undizzy meter fill up, the element of surprise is gone. It's no wonder some suggestions have been "don't reset so fast", what's the bloody point in doing a reset if it's not fast? All you're doing is giving the opponent more breathing room to escape pressure.

While momentum is negatively affected, it's not entirely gone and I made no such allusions to such a claim. That's yet again, another poor interpretation by you of what I said so it fits your argument. Look, it's clear to me you seem to like Undizzy or don't see it as a problem or even the least bothersome. That's cool and I respect your opinion but I gotta tell you, your head is so far up your ass that you're unable to actually clamly debate this subject since you've seem to have an attitude with me from the beginning and I have no idea why. I mention that I think none of us want to see SDEs low resource TOD combos again and your zinger is to say "go back to SDE". Fine, I'll go back to SDE and babyback bitches that whine about combos being too long can fuck off and play another video game. How's that sound? Want a game with a monster theme, quick chain combos, lots of neutral and resets and mixups from knockdown? Try Vampire Savior.

Nice talking with you.

 

[dekillsage]

Free pummel horse assist

 

[Spencer]

...

It is designed to affect your momentum and to shorten your combos.

In a better system, momentum is determined by keeping up the pressure on an opponent who is able to block and respond. That is a test of skill.

In the system you propose, momentum is determined by links and really doesn't allow your opponent to do anything at all.

You want the unstoppable assault by your own admission. Not many others want it precisely because it is literally unstoppable for the vast majority of the damage you take and time you spend in combo.

 

[dekillsage]

Man this game has hitstop on supers who cares about pressure and blocking.

 

[Narroo]

I wonder if Mike Z is crying yet?

Don't worry Mike Z! It's okay!

 

[Dagwood]

babyback bitches that whine about combos being too long can fuck off and play another video game. How's that sound? Want a game with a monster theme, quick chain combos, lots of neutral and resets and mixups from knockdown? Try Vampire Savior.

Nice talking with you.

Lol, you say that sarcastically, yet that's the only defense I've seen for the combos/resets in this game.

Any time anyone brings up the issue its just "Dont get hit lol" or some other BS excuse.
Well guess what, they already did "fuck off and play another game", incase you havent noticed, not many people are playing SG.

Next time you're at a tournament go and ask anyone why they don't play SG. You'll hear 2 things:

1. Not enough characters/I don't like the characters
2. Combos too long/looks like a 1 player game

You can go ahead and dismiss all that as "whiner bitches madcuzbad" if you want. Or you could consider that they have a point.
even Duckator posted before saying the game lacks variety. That's because of the combos/resets. Every character plays the same: Fish for hit, Make them guess till I win.
The only diffirent playstyle is Peacock and maybe Fortune slightly.

 

[blufang]

1. You think I'm going to pick up Peacock after Isavulpes posted that picture? How will that make me look?
2. Yeah I got what Dimex was trying to say, just thought it was stupid. SF2 has tons of neutral game, and you have keepaway characters, rush down characters, charge characters, grapplers, etc. etc. I want more neutral game as a result of the mechanics of the game engine itself.

 

[dekillsage]

Every character playing the same is bs

Painwheel can fly
Bella can't fly

Give bella fly

 

[blufang]

No characters are the same, but all of them sans Peacock try to rush in and do a TOD combo usually behind a safe assist. More neutral would allow the differences in character types to come through much more.

 

[dekillsage]

It's almost as if the goal isn't to kill your opponent.

 

[Icky]

No characters are the same, but all of them sans Peacock try to rush in and do a TOD combo usually behind a safe assist. More neutral would allow the differences in character types to come through much more.

Your perception of this game is so fucking skewed it's not even funny

 

[Kawalorn]

You guys are scaring me with your big paragraphs, difficult words and "I don't even know if you are hostile or not". ;_;

 

[winnie]

Give bella fly

Give bella everything = best game

 

[Dagwood]

i'll still play the game regardless, i like it the way it is. But pretty much every non-SG player that i talk to about SG says they don't play it because the resets/combos are too crazy.

And yeah Im not saying nerf the shit out of it to 15 hit combos only or something. The game is well established and has a pace to it that would be really fucked up if you nerfed the offense too much. It is a really offensive game and should stay that way. But it feels too much of a guessing game right now. You can still kill in 1 reset, maybe 2. Its not a gigantic change from SDE really.

 

[dekillsage]

It will be even more of a guessing game if this patch drops.
Also not everyone will be able to keep up with the games pacing. There are other games for those people.

Also chances are more people will play if the game was you know... hype? (and not dead)

You know what would be hype???!?!? Barrels that are on fire!!!
MakeItHappenGuys
MakeDoubleAFireBender