Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?

[Arcana]

It was always just a limiter mechanic but now you can see where that limit is.

Not having a visual undizzy meter was as ridiculous as not having a visual super meter or health meter.

do we really need a visible health bar and super meter? we should just have undizzy bar visible instead

 

[MysteriousJ]

Visible undizzy meter was needed. Defender being able to see when he can burst means he stops mashing? Great, no fear of getting hit by mashed super during resets, go for your 50/50. Now the attacker doesn't have to worry about where he is in terms of undizzy.

Plus the defender is looking at the meter and probably just missed seeing the reset. But IMO, undizzy meter isn't going to affect the gameplay very much. However, it is fantastic for helping spectators keep up with the match. The tournament at the expo was MDE with undizzy meter, and it made watching combos much more engaging.

 

[View619]

Plus the defender is looking at the meter and probably just missed seeing the reset. But IMO, undizzy meter isn't going to affect the gameplay very much. However, it is fantastic for helping spectators keep up with the match. The tournament at the expo was MDE with undizzy meter, and it made watching combos much more engaging.

As an attacker, you'll be better able to adapt to the situation at hand instead of trying to calculate/guess exactly where you are in terms of undizzy; as a defender you'll know exactly when your burst will be available instead of mashing and hoping it's soon or reacting to the colour flash and mashing then; more complete information for the players is a GOOD thing.

I doubt spectators are going to care about the undizzy meter at all, just when the combo ends/burst happens.

 

[Kongk4]

I voted the #1 option, but I feel that undizzy should be 250 IMO.

 

[Luweewu]

If they don't mash they are totally open. Unless you only have gimmicky resets, you have 50/50 situations. So mashing out is still a good option for them in any situation where they can. You also don't have to take the meter to the end, remember. You could reset a little before it, if you think they will be anticipating it at the end so strongly as you claim.

I already utilized early resets, thanks. Those are kind of part of the undizzy game. How else are you going to play with the values if you aren't?

Mashing out is hardly ever a good option for the defender. If the choice is between mashing and getting burst baited or, say, taking a hard knockdown for a high/low/crossup/throw wakeup situation, the latter is the better option for you since 1)you don't clear your stun, 2)you don't get sent for another ride and 3)you actually have a chance to defend yourself.

That was the threat that kept players honest. Bella isn't going to reversal Dynamo or Filia Fenrir (Gregor in the air) if they think they might be getting set up (or maybe they will. mind games, etc).

Lower stun value with resets "gimmicky" or otherwise w/e works, keep them guessing, once you kept track of everything well enough trigger undizzy and see if they bite. If not, hopefully you had set it up in a favorable position and continue from there. If they were able to reversal out during one of your resets or you guessed wrong and they blocked/teched/alpha'd, welp one of the risks of doing resets gotta live with it. Positioning. Mind games. Woo.

The undizzy meter is there for 1 primary reason: to show the attacker exactly where they are in undizzy when they are 2-3 resets into an attack sequence, which before it was near impossible to keep track of.

Near-impossible? No. Hard, sure, but it's doable. I guess you didn't bother, which is fine, but that doesn't make it impossible.

And no, you don't need to do some crazy mental math to figure it out.

I've already gone over how the bar gives both players information which defeats the purpose of doing games with Undizzy, which the hinged on the fact that it was hidden before.

1 reset was easy, multiple resets was VERY hard.

git gud then

Get better non gimmicky burst baits and use your resets at different times than always at the end of combos/full undizzy meter.

Call me when burst baits are not gimmicks (I guess there was one, but that got patched out), and I already do use my resets at different times thank you.

 

[Dime]

Lol.. This guy :)

 

[KhaosMuffins]

If at any point someone were to trigger undizzy and they felt it was "random" because they reset "too quickly", that's a very bad thing. That's a part of why some people didn't like undizzy, and the undizzy bar is there to prevent that.

 

[Mwisk]

I'm incredibly happy with the Undizzy bar (thank you based Brady). The greatest thing about it, it's that it ADDS a new layer of mind games.

 

[iLoli]

I feel weird for the undizzy bar.

I kind of don't want it, but on the other hand it does change what an "optimal combo/reset" is, it's no longer "the most damage until undizzy", now it's "the most unpredictable reset you can do".

 

[dekillsage]

If that means less people mashing supers while I try to reset them, that's fine.

stop going for resets that lose to reversal supers. Easy

 

[RemiKz]

stop going for resets that lose to reversal supers. Easy

You are right but it's nice to know that people will be more hesitant to do it

 

[Spencer]

stop going for resets that lose to reversal supers. Easy

Not all supers are created equally.

Zero air reset options vs Filia, for example.

In my experience, all resets are prone to some form of mashing (super, normal, throw) depending on MU and reset, but it is far more difficult than "just don't use that particular reset".

 

[dekillsage]

Not all supers are created equally.

Zero air reset options vs Filia, for example.

In my experience, all resets are prone to some form of mashing (super, normal, throw) depending on MU and reset, but it is far more difficult than "just don't use that particular reset".

Pick parasoul
launch
j.lp, j.lk, j.mp
land call updo cross under

congrats you just air reset a gregor mashing filia

 

[CaioLugon]

Mike please put the new 1v1 system on the game already, its long overdue with a game that has such high damage.

But I'd wait for Big Band to add Undizzy changes.

 

[Spencer]

Pick parasoul
launch
j.lp, j.lk, j.mp
land call updo cross under

congrats you just air reset a gregor mashing filia

Oh, I meant for my solo PW.

In any case, like I said, resets are MU dependent and more difficult than just intrinsically bad or good resets.

 

[dekillsage]

yes yes

 

[Number 13]

Mike please put the new 1v1 system on the game already, its long overdue with a game that has such high damage.

He is not done tweaking with the downs yet according to his to-do list.

 

[Dagwood]

I'm in favor of anything that makes this less of a 1-player game

 

[Dime]

I'm in favor of anything that makes this less of a 1-player game

Then play with people of equal skill. Fighting games are one player no matter what, when there is a big skill difference.

 

[blufang]

Fighting games are only one player during combos. Supposing there was a fighting game where combos didn't exist at all. Then it would be 2 players 100% of the time, unless you got dizzied in which case you are helpless. Supposing a game where after you land the first hit you can do an infinite to kill your opponent. Then the game is only 2 players for the first landed hit, afterwords it becomes a test of execution for one player while the other player watches.

Even if the worst player who ever played faced off against the best player of all time, it would still be two player other than combos. The worst player could still do stuff even if he sux at the game. However while being combo regardless of how good you are, you watch...or mash, essentially you are uninvolved til the combo ends.

 

[dekillsage]

Super smash brothers brawl is the most 2(or 4) player game you can ever play in your entire life. Give it a try and tell me how much fun you have.
Or even melee for that matter

 

[Spencer]

Then play with people of equal skill. Fighting games are one player no matter what, when there is a big skill difference.

The thing is that it is miserable to have to learn by getting two play roughly 2 seconds of any match for a dozens of matches. The neutral at least provides a newer player (or a worse player) with the opportunity to see why they lost. At its peak, all a new player would learn from Skullgirls is "oh shit... don't get hit".

It is poor game design for most of the genre as a whole. You are expected to lose a ton of games when you start SC2. You are expected to lose a ton of games when you start Dota/Lol/HoN. You are supposed to die a ton when you pick up TF2 or other shooters and so on.

In each of these games there is a number of learning moments. A rush comes and you lose to it? Oh shit, Zerg can 6 pool. Sniped from across the map? Oh shit, that place isn't secure at all. Stunlocked to death? Fuck me, watch out for Crystal Maiden.

Then you're back in the fight (or starting a new game). In an FG, your first dozen games are learning a combo (on the off chance you get a confirm) and learning not to get hit (a valuable skill, no doubt, but not the only skill by far). Only then after you cut your teeth are you able to start learning the game. The barrier for entry is immense.

 

[dekillsage]

More neutral in a game wont change the fact that if my newbie opponent gets hit he will die and cry about it.(or learn from it. we want these guys)

 

[Nap1400]

Super smash brothers brawl is the most 2(or 4) player game you can ever play in your entire life. Give it a try and tell me how much fun you have.
Or even melee for that matter

Melee is a legit game. Don't know what you're talking about.

Brawl is a bad competitive game, though.

 

[Dime]

The thing is that it is miserable to have to learn by getting two play roughly 2 seconds of any match for a dozens of matches. The neutral at least provides a newer player (or a worse player) with the opportunity to see why they lost. At its peak, all a new player would learn from Skullgirls is "oh shit... don't get hit".

It is poor game design for most of the genre as a whole. You are expected to lose a ton of games when you start SC2. You are expected to lose a ton of games when you start Dota/Lol/HoN. You are supposed to die a ton when you pick up TF2 or other shooters and so on.

In each of these games there is a number of learning moments. A rush comes and you lose to it? Oh shit, Zerg can 6 pool. Sniped from across the map? Oh shit, that place isn't secure at all. Stunlocked to death? Fuck me, watch out for Crystal Maiden.

Then you're back in the fight (or starting a new game). In an FG, your first dozen games are learning a combo (on the off chance you get a confirm) and learning not to get hit (a valuable skill, no doubt, but not the only skill by far). Only then after you cut your teeth are you able to start learning the game. The barrier for entry is immense.

I have no idea what point you are making here... You seem to want to say that competitive games are badly designed because the player with WAY MORE hard won experience will kick the shit out of the player with way less experience.

I mean seriously... The examples you use are utter trash. So learning to not get hit isn't actually learning the game? Could have fucking fooled me.

And Starcraft being easier as far as having a learning point? Give me a fucking break dude. You have to know build structures that last 5 minutes into the game and more... That is a 5 minute combo... I used to play wc3 at a moderate level and it took me quite a long time to find a good build structure that I could use for Orc that was good enough against newb and pro strats. I got. Killed by peon rushes, tower rushes, mofos building mass destroyers and double racking melee, and mass air, and gruntapult, and rifles sorcs and etc etc etc.

But all that ass kickery that I got subjected to was a learning experience that was NO DIFFERENT THAN LEARNING SG. You get your ass handed to you in Warcraft, you get your ass handed to you in sg you get your ass handed to you in lol... It is all a part of learning SKILLED COMPETETIVE GAMES.

any and every game is like that. Chess... Get owned by grandmasters before you even know what was done to you.

Boxing?
Good luck making it past the first 30 seconds against a world champ. And even the first round against an intermediate.
Football?
Your gonna get your dick knocked in the dirt.

Baseball?
90 mph fastballs that you aren't even going to be able to see much less hit, much less a base hit, much less a home run.


I could go on... But the point is obvious.

This argument:

"Beginners need to take losses for their first dozen games and learn combos before they learn to cut there teeth and begin to learn the game"

Is a ridiculous argument:

Learning to cut ones teeth isn't learning the game? Could have fooled me. I thought I was learning not to be in throw range, not get hit by assists, not to be in cr.lk range, to be observant and mindful of my opponents patterns, and how they like to mixup...

But I guess that isn't actually learning how to play the game?

Same as learning build structures in Starcraft and Warcraft isn't learning the game, same as learning to throw a football or run tight zig zag patterns isn't learning the game, same as learning to throw a curveball, or to recognize the difference between a curveball or a slider or a fastball or the opponents pitching patterns isn't learning the game.

I've got it:

We should all be playing turn based competetive RPGs.

 

[blufang]

I think it's just the 'in' think to bash Super smash bros. Seemed like a fun game to me from what I've played.

More neutral in a game wont change the fact that if my newbie opponent gets hit he will die and cry about it.(or learn from it. we want these guys)

Crying would be cut down by approximately 85% according to my calculations. In neutral game, you would learn...oh my move x doesn't work against move y, or it is good to use move z in this situation, move b is a wonderful anti air, etc. etc. What you learn while getting comboed? Nothing, except getting hit is bad.

 

[View619]

Not sure why people keep bringing up more neutral like it's the great equalizer. If the game had no combos, a skilled player would still shit on a new/bad player and send him packing if he's not willing to suck it up. I don't know about you, but getting the feeling that nothing you try during neutral works is FAR WORSE than getting stuck in a combo for a while and looking for the reset; at least I can avoid losing immediately if I learn how to space myself properly to avoid the situation entirely or figure out HOW TO DEFEND vs never being able to make any progress and constantly losing ground during the neutral.

You can have a game with no combos and many players still won't figure out why they keep losing.

 

[dekillsage]

Melee is a legit game. Don't know what you're talking about.

Brawl is a bad competitive game, though.

Brawl is a legit game. Don't know what you're talking about.

Melee is a bad competitive game, though.

 

[iLoli]

like divekick

 

[Balrog]

Spoiler

I have no idea what point you are making here... You seem to want to say that competitive games are badly designed because the player with WAY MORE hard won experience will kick the shit out of the player with way less experience.

I mean seriously... The examples you use are utter trash. So learning to not get hit isn't actually learning the game? Could have fucking fooled me.

And Starcraft being easier as far as having a learning point? Give me a fucking break dude. You have to know build structures that last 5 minutes into the game and more... That is a 5 minute combo... I used to play wc3 at a moderate level and it took me quite a long time to find a good build structure that I could use for Orc that was good enough against newb and pro strats. I got. Killed by peon rushes, tower rushes, mofos building mass destroyers and double racking melee, and mass air, and gruntapult, and rifles sorcs and etc etc etc.

But all that ass kickery that I got subjected to was a learning experience that was NO DIFFERENT THAN LEARNING SG. You get your ass handed to you in Warcraft, you get your ass handed to you in sg you get your ass handed to you in lol... It is all a part of learning SKILLED COMPETETIVE GAMES.

any and every game is like that. Chess... Get owned by grandmasters before you even know what was done to you.

Boxing?
Good luck making it past the first 30 seconds against a world champ. And even the first round against an intermediate.
Football?
Your gonna get your dick knocked in the dirt.

Baseball?
90 mph fastballs that you aren't even going to be able to see much less hit, much less a base hit, much less a home run.


I could go on... But the point is obvious.

This argument:

"Beginners need to take losses for their first dozen games and learn combos before they learn to cut there teeth and begin to learn the game"

Is a ridiculous argument:

Learning to cut ones teeth isn't learning the game? Could have fooled me. I thought I was learning not to be in throw range, not get hit by assists, not to be in cr.lk range, to be observant and mindful of my opponents patterns, and how they like to mixup...

But I guess that isn't actually learning how to play the game?

Same as learning build structures in Starcraft and Warcraft isn't learning the game, same as learning to throw a football or run tight zig zag patterns isn't learning the game, same as learning to throw a curveball, or to recognize the difference between a curveball or a slider or a fastball or the opponents pitching patterns isn't learning the game.

I've got it:

We should all be playing turn based competetive RPGs.

Nice strawman m8. He wasn't talking about learning from experience being bad, he was talking about the fact that learning from experience in Skullgirls feels like getting punched in the dongers compared to learning from experience in other competitive games. In RTS games like WC3 you have the time to analyze what you're building and what your opponent's throwing at you and eventually say (for example) that if your opponent is throwing a lot of weak attackers at you in the beginning then he's probably rushing and that if you deal with the initial swarm by turtling you'll be able to exploit his crippled economy. In combo-heavy fighters like Skullgirls a beginner will just be going "OMG he's comboing me what do I do now wait wtf I'm dead already how was I supposed to avoid that".

Further, losing in combo-heavy fighters just isn't fun. In an RTS you can at least try to defend yourself in the face of a crushing offensive and bitterly take as many of the enemy with you as possible. Not so with Skullgirls; one screwup (which probably wasn't apparent to you in any way) and you've got nothing to do for the next 20 seconds but watch your character get beat on.

 

[Jason]

Not sure why people keep bringing up more neutral like it's the great equalizer. If the game had no combos, a skilled player would still shit on a new/bad player and send him packing if he's not willing to suck it up. I don't know about you, but getting the feeling that nothing you try during neutral works is FAR WORSE than getting stuck in a combo for a while and looking for the reset; at least I can avoid losing immediately if I learn how to space myself properly to avoid the situation entirely or figure out HOW TO DEFEND vs never being able to make any progress and constantly losing ground during the neutral.

You can have a game with no combos and many players still won't figure out why they keep losing.

Shorter combos don't make the game more fair for new players, it just makes it more FUN.

 

[Spencer]

...

Holy wall of text just to strawman...

The reason that FG as a whole have a shitty learning curve is because you have a number of games in which you have to lose before you can start learning most of the game.

Take WC3, sure you're going to get smoked by a better player.

But, in the meantime you're going to learn build orders, how to put off rushes, how to creep with your heroes, what each hero is capable of, how to get an economy going, how much static defense vs army you need, what counters what, and what doesn't work.

In an FG (especially one as combo heavy as SG), you're not going to learn shit. You are going to learn that getting hit ends the game which is kind of a no shit moment, isn't it? You aren't going to learn how to counter specific moves. You aren't going to learn how to use your specials. You aren't going to learn what your regulars do. You aren't going to learn much of anything other than how to block and eventually pushblock (both of which are important... as I said).

Neutral at least gives the appearance of being able to do something despite the almost inevitable loss. It will also allow you to learn more of the game at once (instead of having to focus exclusively on one aspect).

And you want to talk skill? A more neutral heavy game lends itself to skill. More confirms required per kill means more opportunities to fuck up.

 

[RemiKz]

Shorter combos don't make the game more fair for new players, it just makes it more FUN.

Subjective. I enjoy fancy creative combos. Not to say I think we need combos that go on for days, but performing cool long combos are definitely fun for me to watch/perform.

 

[dekillsage]

There's a reason the most popular game in the States is Marvel and not Virtua Fighter.



Give Double a foot dive.

 

[Verstande]

Is there any way for MikeZ to implement 1v1 battles like King of Fighters? I think that would be extremely fun.

 

[dekillsage]

Is there any way for MikeZ to implement 1v1 battles like King of Fighters? I think that would be extremely fun.

I think Mike can do that for you yes yes -_^b

 

[blufang]

Verstande that is an awesome idea, I would love that too.

There's a reason the most popular game in the States is Marvel and not Virtua Fighter.

Thought it was SF4? According to sales it wins by a landslide, even domestically I believe. SF4 is a very flawed game but among modern games on the opposite side of the combo spectrum.

 

[Dime]

The hell are you 2 talking about? STRAWMAN is misrepresenting someone's argument and construing it to be something that it isn't. I'm not the one that brought up Starcraft. Spencer did. I just went with it.

Strawman:

Me: I like honey and wish there were more of it.
Other person: oh so what you are saying is that you want more bees in the world and for more people to be stung by those bees.



Anyways....

Even if my argument were strawman (which it isn't), the strawman was put up originally by spencer and co with their stance that you can't learn ANYTHING while being combod. And by the opponents being a beginner against a pro, and by saying that there is no neutral before the combo to learn off of. All these things are blatant fucking lies and misrepresentations or extreme generalities

It's absolutely hilarious that one person says its "fun" to lose in an rts, whereas in sg it isn't... Um how about you learn what an opinion is? Cause I mind losing in sg less than in an rts. It ain't fucking fun for me to be tower rushed, or mass aired, or triple racked with melee. But to others... Maybe it is...point being it's an obvious OPINION.

And if an absolute beginner can learn things of note versus a wc3 pro... I fail to see how that same beginner couldn't gain inklings of knowledge from fighting a seasoned sg pro... Fuck it let's look at all the things that an opponent COULD learn from, getting hit by ONE combo:

1. What the opening hitconfirm was
2. How much range it had
3. Did it counter hit
4. How long did it last
5. How much damage did it do
6. Where was the reset point
7. Hit level/type of starter (high/low/throw/assist confirm)
8. Did the opponent end without resetting
9. Was the reset high/low/throw/crossup or burstbait or with or without an assist
10. Did the combo kill in one touch or 3 resets
11. What would have been the best counter to the reset that the opponent did
12. If the opponent is playing your character you could find some new resets/combo paths that you didn't know about or if they aren't you might see a combo for their character that you didn't know was possible and may make you want to pick up that character

And I could probably come up with more if I actually sat here for more than 3 minutes.

So yeah.... TOTALLY can't learn anything while being combod. And can't learn anything form the openers nor from the opponents enders either.


I'm done here, it's obvious who is getting combod and raging at the screen for the pain to stop while not paying any attention, and the others that while combod are taking in all the information given to keep themselves out of combo or reset as best as possible.

TLDR

You can learn a lot from a combo

 

[iLoli]

There's a reason the most popular game in the States is Marvel and not Virtua Fighter.



Give Double a foot dive.

Yeah, but they're not the reasons you're insinuating.

 

[scrubbyscum999]

Ok, this what we all need to do. We need to give Painwheel greater damage. Death Crawl and Ber Thresher needs to do liek 3500 dmg. Then, we make Hatred Install one meter. Buer should count as a reset. That would make this the best game ever.