Jason
Not JasonD
All of that stuff you could still learn from a significantly shorter combo.
Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?
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All of that stuff you could still learn from a significantly shorter combo.
Mr. X
Groovy
Go for it. Get people familiarized with the new system as soon as possible because waiting til Big Band is just even less time before the tournament season goes into full swing or concludes with EVO. If these changes feel like they are going to hold up for a long time coming, do it.
blufang
Ink does a body good
Yup, and likely you have much more combo starts, reset attempts, so even more learning! Oh yeah and more neutral so a boatload of additional learning there.
Spencer
Painwheel
Spencer
Painwheel
Haha, OG... I'm currently playing ARR.
But were that any other IP, that game wouldn't have lasted even a f2p transition.
Spencer
Painwheel
The strawman:
I said: The thing is that it is miserable to have to learn by getting two play roughly 2 seconds of any match for a dozens of matches. The neutral at least provides a newer player (or a worse player) with the opportunity to see why they lost. At its peak, all a new player would learn from Skullgirls is "oh shit... don't get hit". (embarassing typo and all).
You countered with: "You seem to want to say that competitive games are badly designed because the player with WAY MORE hard won experience will kick the shit out of the player with way less experience."
Which is not what I said, implied, or meant at all. That is classic strawman.
Next, I didn't ever strawman. I stated an opinion which I think to be both common sense and observable (it is often even worn as a badge of pride as to why "we few, we happy few" persevere in FGs while most don't).
But yes, I'll grant you your list (at least most of it), but we are getting awfully specific. Most of it is relatively unimportant at most stages of the game (How much damage did there combo do? A lot... How long did it last? A long time... ). And some of it is not beginner friendly (learn a reset?). But, in any case, I should be a tiny bit less hyperbolic, you're right. You can learn a handful of very specific things as a new player getting rocked repeatedly by someone better than you.
KhaosMuffins
Washed and Bougie
Too much arguing over meaningless... things. Not enough playing and gitting gudder.
Shin ATproof
I BRZ I Shin ATproof
Can we dispel the myth that the only reason people are opposed to some of the undizzy changes is because they are mad about not getting long combos? That isn't the only thing that can be affected by undizzy, particularly a strict one. A main reason some people don't like some of the undizzy experiments has been that we want with the combo system in this game to offer substantial damage output, strong player momentum as well as strong damage potential & viability with resets.
Undizzy experiments like the Stage 3 240 Undizzy a little over a week ago(?) was incredibly stifling to those reasonable desires. Unless you had the resources available such as plenty of super meter or an assist, the momentum of the attacking player was hindered because depending on where and even how you started the combo, you ran into the undizzy quickly when trying to do say corner carry or put the opponent in an opportune position for a setup for a reset. In addition, when in a reset, one wouldn't be allowed to convert maximum damage but would have to try to find shorter combos each time. As a solo or even as the last remaining character in a team, every single hit you land is super critical to victory especially when facing pressure and keepaway with assists. Being able to convert that hit confirm into a combo that does high damage and helps put the flow of the battle in your favor is something you don't want to be messed with or taken for granted in the mere pursuit of making a fighting game more friendly to new or lesser skilled players.
While the current Undizzy is more reasonable than some of the past experiments, it boggles my mind that some people liked the level 3 240 Undizzy and even think it wasn't strict enough, because one could die in 2~3 touches per character. Undizzy ultimately still feels like a system that is intrusive and trying to force a neutral game by telling the attacking player "okay, you've hit them enough, let them breathe a little". Except I don't want my opponent to breathe a little, I want them to suffocate under my pressure until they die or learn to break my offense by their own power. Whether you're a solo or using a team of 3 and you're in a 1v3 deficit, this is something that should concern you. Unfortunately this is something a lot of people don't understand and their suggestions are things like "play teams instead of solo, don't do your reset too quickly, end your combo with a sweep" and I immediately want to find the closest table and flip it hearing such shit suggestions since these are people that don't see combos and resets as anything more than something for damage output rather than something that also affects gameflow and player momentum.
While some people would prefer the combos be shorter, I think the vast majority of us just never want the low resource TOD stuff from Vanilla or SDE to return ever again. However, arguing for a system that can weaken offense and force neutral in the pursuit of giving the illusion of "fairness" or a "fighting chance" to new and lesser skilled players is a foolish endeavor and to only see the change affecting how many X# of seconds a combo lasts and only seeing positives from such a change is only looking at combos from a very narrow and short sighted perspective.
Undizzy experiments like the Stage 3 240 Undizzy a little over a week ago(?) was incredibly stifling to those reasonable desires. Unless you had the resources available such as plenty of super meter or an assist, the momentum of the attacking player was hindered because depending on where and even how you started the combo, you ran into the undizzy quickly when trying to do say corner carry or put the opponent in an opportune position for a setup for a reset. In addition, when in a reset, one wouldn't be allowed to convert maximum damage but would have to try to find shorter combos each time. As a solo or even as the last remaining character in a team, every single hit you land is super critical to victory especially when facing pressure and keepaway with assists. Being able to convert that hit confirm into a combo that does high damage and helps put the flow of the battle in your favor is something you don't want to be messed with or taken for granted in the mere pursuit of making a fighting game more friendly to new or lesser skilled players.
While the current Undizzy is more reasonable than some of the past experiments, it boggles my mind that some people liked the level 3 240 Undizzy and even think it wasn't strict enough, because one could die in 2~3 touches per character. Undizzy ultimately still feels like a system that is intrusive and trying to force a neutral game by telling the attacking player "okay, you've hit them enough, let them breathe a little". Except I don't want my opponent to breathe a little, I want them to suffocate under my pressure until they die or learn to break my offense by their own power. Whether you're a solo or using a team of 3 and you're in a 1v3 deficit, this is something that should concern you. Unfortunately this is something a lot of people don't understand and their suggestions are things like "play teams instead of solo, don't do your reset too quickly, end your combo with a sweep" and I immediately want to find the closest table and flip it hearing such shit suggestions since these are people that don't see combos and resets as anything more than something for damage output rather than something that also affects gameflow and player momentum.
While some people would prefer the combos be shorter, I think the vast majority of us just never want the low resource TOD stuff from Vanilla or SDE to return ever again. However, arguing for a system that can weaken offense and force neutral in the pursuit of giving the illusion of "fairness" or a "fighting chance" to new and lesser skilled players is a foolish endeavor and to only see the change affecting how many X# of seconds a combo lasts and only seeing positives from such a change is only looking at combos from a very narrow and short sighted perspective.
Spencer
Painwheel
I think the problem I have is that under the original system there was no real way to break from your offense. There was in some severe cases literally only one chance to get out of the combo chains. In that system it isn't so much a matter of "get good", but more a matter of "don't get hit" which isn't fun for anyone.
I like the way it feels to execute a huge combo, but I hate how it feels to be on the receiving end of one. There is little to do. I've literally taken a drink of my water/coffee/beer in the time it took to get out of some of the longer combos.
Generally it is considered good game design to have meaningful player interaction. In the case of the huge combo, there is zero player interaction... just one dude timing button presses and another guy cursing.
I'm all for long combos but there needs to be some form of metered burst (a la GG) or some other system which gives the recipient something meaningful to do.
Darklightjg1
Am I ever not pissed?
No there doesn't need to be something like a burst to give the recipient something meaningful to do (my opinion).
Contemplating your next move or reflecting on your loss/how to not lose like that next time is meaningful enough for me.
Contemplating your next move or reflecting on your loss/how to not lose like that next time is meaningful enough for me.
Dime
The power of BEAT EXTEND
@Shin ATproof ... I concur. And you do bring up points that I had thought obvious and have been glossing over.
Namely that sg as it is now is very high stakes. And momentum based. And high damage. Personally, like you have eluded to here, no one wanted severin evo style combos to be a thing of regular occurrence or even possible.. That was overkill. But as you said, the community was almost overwhelmingly in favor of restricting those combos and not allowing the blatant abuses that those combos brought forth such as raw tag and then going back through the ips again, and then doing it a third time, and also allowing dhc combos to do the same thing.
That was certainly overkill. But, here we are with a good system (mde) that does restrict super abusive rawtag and dhc combos, but for the most part allows the longish solo combos to exist and it still isn't good enough for the winers.
That's really my biggest problem: them wanting the game changed so drastically when the combos are almost perfectly balanced as it is right now in mde.
Dying from one reset in 3v3 while using a meter that was given to you for free and using 2 of the strongest dhc supers in the game doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
I see skullgirls more as no limit poker... The poker that is considered to be the most skilled in the world cause of the extreme emotional variables that come with playing hands in multi thousand dollar pots.
I mean, I just see this whining (and yes I do see it as whining) about combo length outside of sde as simply not wanting to lose, not liking to assess situations from a disadvantage, and trying to make as many terrible arguments as possible for the inclusion of said examples.
Like seriously, that is all I can see from these guys. Lots of lose, very little win.
I think they make some good points such as moar neutral, but they lack insight to see that shorter combos don't make for more neutral. Better neutral tools make more neutral (see peacock) lower ability to hitconfirm into a combo make more neutral (see fuerte, Bridget) and a game that was initially designed to have a higher amount of neutral (see soulcalibur) make for more neutral. I also find it HIGHLY suspect that many of these guys that cry more neutral don't use peacock (on there main team)... The best neutral in the game, and one of the funnest zoning characters that at least in my opinion has ever been invented. And is even fun to play against.
And also as you said shin, this lower damage/shorter combos thing actually makes it harder to make comebacks... Not the shorter combos, but definitely the lower damage. And that in itself DEFINITELY makes for a worse game since the attacker and defender should rarely think they are completely out of the game and that being able to win is statistically rare when faced with a big lead.
I seriously see the complaints as no more valid than all the people that complained that throws are cheap at the beginning of the ce era (they actually WERE op in world warrior since tick throws were impossible to escape) but a completely viable tactic after that.
In oldschool streetfighter it wasnt even about not getting hit, it was almost completely about denying certain ranges, because if you allowed certain ranges you were probably going to lose. Imagine a game where getting hit was less climactic than simply allowing the opponent to get close.
Well that is almsot exactly what we have in sg... Its just that many players havent come to realize it yet. They think that getting hit is the problem when they couldn't be further from the truth.
Allowing the opponent to get anywhere near you with frame advantage is the big mistake in sg. Everything on top of that is just making a good read in a bad situation... Which is a FURTHER option to not take damage. Thats 2 options already to not take damage: deny them the range, and if not possible or you made a mistake, guess correctly.
But nooooo, that isnt enough. Having pbgc on block for no meter for some charcters isnt enough, having alpha counter for others for meter isnt enough, denying range isnt enough, guessing correctly isnt enough, grabbing a dp assist if your defense cant hack it isnt enough.
We also have to lessen the reward that a correct offensive read or guess gives.
Idk, im convinced that it is whining, plain and simple. I still see no evidence that THIS game becomes 1 player in combo... I pay attention when combod. I guess others dont...
I dont see how other players lacking observation skills warrants shortening combos to such a degree that they currently are in the beta.
I can and will adjust, easily. I just wont be having as much fun. Which is a shame since i was one of the many people that liked the game right out the gates.
Namely that sg as it is now is very high stakes. And momentum based. And high damage. Personally, like you have eluded to here, no one wanted severin evo style combos to be a thing of regular occurrence or even possible.. That was overkill. But as you said, the community was almost overwhelmingly in favor of restricting those combos and not allowing the blatant abuses that those combos brought forth such as raw tag and then going back through the ips again, and then doing it a third time, and also allowing dhc combos to do the same thing.
That was certainly overkill. But, here we are with a good system (mde) that does restrict super abusive rawtag and dhc combos, but for the most part allows the longish solo combos to exist and it still isn't good enough for the winers.
That's really my biggest problem: them wanting the game changed so drastically when the combos are almost perfectly balanced as it is right now in mde.
Dying from one reset in 3v3 while using a meter that was given to you for free and using 2 of the strongest dhc supers in the game doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
I see skullgirls more as no limit poker... The poker that is considered to be the most skilled in the world cause of the extreme emotional variables that come with playing hands in multi thousand dollar pots.
I mean, I just see this whining (and yes I do see it as whining) about combo length outside of sde as simply not wanting to lose, not liking to assess situations from a disadvantage, and trying to make as many terrible arguments as possible for the inclusion of said examples.
Like seriously, that is all I can see from these guys. Lots of lose, very little win.
I think they make some good points such as moar neutral, but they lack insight to see that shorter combos don't make for more neutral. Better neutral tools make more neutral (see peacock) lower ability to hitconfirm into a combo make more neutral (see fuerte, Bridget) and a game that was initially designed to have a higher amount of neutral (see soulcalibur) make for more neutral. I also find it HIGHLY suspect that many of these guys that cry more neutral don't use peacock (on there main team)... The best neutral in the game, and one of the funnest zoning characters that at least in my opinion has ever been invented. And is even fun to play against.
And also as you said shin, this lower damage/shorter combos thing actually makes it harder to make comebacks... Not the shorter combos, but definitely the lower damage. And that in itself DEFINITELY makes for a worse game since the attacker and defender should rarely think they are completely out of the game and that being able to win is statistically rare when faced with a big lead.
I seriously see the complaints as no more valid than all the people that complained that throws are cheap at the beginning of the ce era (they actually WERE op in world warrior since tick throws were impossible to escape) but a completely viable tactic after that.
In oldschool streetfighter it wasnt even about not getting hit, it was almost completely about denying certain ranges, because if you allowed certain ranges you were probably going to lose. Imagine a game where getting hit was less climactic than simply allowing the opponent to get close.
Well that is almsot exactly what we have in sg... Its just that many players havent come to realize it yet. They think that getting hit is the problem when they couldn't be further from the truth.
Allowing the opponent to get anywhere near you with frame advantage is the big mistake in sg. Everything on top of that is just making a good read in a bad situation... Which is a FURTHER option to not take damage. Thats 2 options already to not take damage: deny them the range, and if not possible or you made a mistake, guess correctly.
But nooooo, that isnt enough. Having pbgc on block for no meter for some charcters isnt enough, having alpha counter for others for meter isnt enough, denying range isnt enough, guessing correctly isnt enough, grabbing a dp assist if your defense cant hack it isnt enough.
We also have to lessen the reward that a correct offensive read or guess gives.
Idk, im convinced that it is whining, plain and simple. I still see no evidence that THIS game becomes 1 player in combo... I pay attention when combod. I guess others dont...
I dont see how other players lacking observation skills warrants shortening combos to such a degree that they currently are in the beta.
I can and will adjust, easily. I just wont be having as much fun. Which is a shame since i was one of the many people that liked the game right out the gates.
Spencer
Painwheel
I think there is a specific type of personality that is almost zen about it, but I think it is safe to say (speaking on behalf of a ton of people), that most people don't feel that way.
Broken Loose
Costumed Adventurer
Okay, so what counts as "substantial damage output?" In MDE, Painwheel regularly gets 11k and can do 5-way resets at nearly any point in there.
In the stage 3 240-stun version of the game, most of the cast could get 50% off a sane starter (some got 60ish). 2-touches from anybody in the cast isn't enough damage for you? MvC3 combos where you spend 3 meters + a BnB for a kill still existed, too. It really seems like you just want a single-player game.
In MvC2, the average was 3 touches to kill a character. MDE off a jump-in (or just with 2 meters) is closer to MvC3, which eventually went to 3/5 because the game was so incredibly random. The reason why people would rather use assists than "real" neutral in Skullgirls is because the risk is incredibly high if you get hit-- the game has a high momentum by design and resets are already good even with 0 stun, and it's trivial to drain the opponent's stun gauge in a reset before doing a 75% 1-meter combo.
Combos could do 3k damage max and the game wouldn't lose reset viability or momentum. It was never entirely about fairness or new players, it was about randomness and evening out the risk/reward ingame.
blufang
Ink does a body good
Can we stop with the name calling? So everyone who thinks combos should be shorter is a whining baby whose never played fighting games before and only complains cause they hate losing. I play SFxT, KOF XIII, and SF4 right now. I win much more in SG than in KOF XIII, but yet I have more issues with SG. Stop making stupid assumptions.
Broken Loose
Costumed Adventurer
To further compound my point, here's the dreaded stage 3 240-stun "incredibly stifling" "no substantial damage" version of the game:
Momentum and damage are practically gone from the game altogether! Look how much meter I needed to start with, and how I had to do the entire thing in the corner because carrying from midscreen is impossible.
Momentum and damage are practically gone from the game altogether! Look how much meter I needed to start with, and how I had to do the entire thing in the corner because carrying from midscreen is impossible.
destruction_adv
Yare Yare Daze
Well to be honest, people have been calling not likeing the changes whining for a LONG time now. Where were you then?
Spencer
Painwheel
It's been going back and forth since the beginning of time.
Doesn't make it right.
And in fairness, hurling unfounded insults is kind of Dime's thing.
destruction_adv
Yare Yare Daze
Hurling insults is more than just his thing, but bleh. I just had a horrible realization, with all the time I've spent in this tread, I could have been practicing the game.
KhaosMuffins
Washed and Bougie
VIVIT_rv00
Pillar assist dependant man
How much would that thing have done without the counter hit?
Darklightjg1
Am I ever not pissed?
Without the CH/reset and the 1.3 damage ratio...
Broken Loose
Costumed Adventurer
It's actually only a 15% boost because the life totals are at 115%. Regardless, the low/throw frametrap/reset is a legit and practical thing that should be considered for this scenario (including the fact that the opponent doesn't build enough meter for super during the first portion). It's also possible to iad j.mp and make it a 3-way mixup, and using the j.mp leads to more damage than c.mk by itself.
It's easy to make up bullshit excuses like "That was 3v3!" (as if 3v3 is never played or something) but that was Peacock, who isn't exactly known for extreme damage and crazy resets. With a "real" character, my point is made even clearer. I'd leave that exercise up to the reader, but
KhaosMuffins
Washed and Bougie
Peacock's damage is actually pretty ridiculous. Or was, at least (can't be bothered to search for the videos I'm thinking of right now). Not sure how much she does in the beta.
Anyways, meter gain/meter scaling seriously need to be looked at. Even with combos being shorter the opponent gains a ton of meter for being hit while the attacker gains pretty much nothing (though the latter is good, I say, especially when resets help the attacker gain meter "somewhat" quickly).
Anyways, meter gain/meter scaling seriously need to be looked at. Even with combos being shorter the opponent gains a ton of meter for being hit while the attacker gains pretty much nothing (though the latter is good, I say, especially when resets help the attacker gain meter "somewhat" quickly).
Broken Loose
Costumed Adventurer
Combo Stage 3 resets generate a SHIT TON of meter for the attacker and like none for the defender (and always have), but people don't do them in MDE anyway because you don't need to when your BnB does 10k+. The fact that people ignore this is part of the larger ecosystem of problems that all stem from long combos being a way more viable option than resets are in the current state of the game. CS3 doesn't even build stun, either, so it's not like there's any risk to doing it.
I tried to optimize Peacock's midscreen damage and got 9.7k (
Vladislav_Paizis
On hiatus from SG
But the competitive players make up a small percentage of sales compared to the casual players, don't they?
Arcana
BTSW | Gayonetta
Broseidon Rex
POWER UP!
Wait really? So is meter gain affected by what stage of the combo you are at moreso than how many hits you've done or is it combo of both? Sorry to be off topic.
Spencer
Painwheel
And mashing in my experience. My air throw reset is a huge, huge freaking risk against decent air supers (Filia, MF, probably PW), and if they are mashing throw then that counters it back to neutral... so in either of the two mashing cases in air, I at best return to neutral.
I'm liking the air reset less and less against anyone but the new players.
I don't really think airthrow resets should be particularly good. Good meaty air throw setups are not reactable and the universal counter is a tech that puts you back at neutral instead of like a block and punish, and only a few characters have air reversals to get a win off the read.
With 240 undizzy, stage 3 burst, and undizzy persistence an airthrow reset gets you some bar and a modest damage bump on that touch, which is about right for how good they are.
The burst bait/airthrow thing is kind of interesting atm because the structure of the reset is "gigantic reward for a BB, small reward for airthrow, but the airthrow beats patience while the BB beats mania".
With 240 undizzy, stage 3 burst, and undizzy persistence an airthrow reset gets you some bar and a modest damage bump on that touch, which is about right for how good they are.
The burst bait/airthrow thing is kind of interesting atm because the structure of the reset is "gigantic reward for a BB, small reward for airthrow, but the airthrow beats patience while the BB beats mania".
Broken Loose
Costumed Adventurer
It's by number of hits, but most people don't make it past CS3 without getting to 10 hits or so, and meter gain doesn't even out between players until 20 hits. At that part of the combo, you're generating about double the meter your opponent is. If you reset well before 10 hits, it's even higher.
Shin ATproof
I BRZ I Shin ATproof
Cool video but first of all, I didn't say corner carry is impossible but it is more difficult for some characters without resources without building substantial undizzy meter especially if you're further than midscreen. I also acknowledged that people still died in two touches anyway. My issue is with momentum and pressure while capitalizing on every hit confirm and I see a hindrance with a strict undizzy. Putting aside the counterhit and the starter, let's analyze the end of your reset combo: your undizzy meter is about 340 when your opponent's next character jumps in. If you hit that character, by the time you've reached stage 5 again, you're only going to get in what, 7 hits of your combo? So what do you do after the kill? You just block and wait for the stun meter to drain long enough before trying to do the same combo again? People complaining about combo length equate MDE and past versions of ultimately being a 1 player experience/turnbased RPG. Well now because of Undizzy, it's like the game has an ATB system and you're waiting for your turn to attack again, how fitting. But I digress, how does that not affect negatively momentum again? You don't find that bothersome in the least? Sure, you've managed to kill a character in two touches but we also essentially have an ingame referee meddling with the match telling players to "break it up" just when when you've successfully put your opponent on the ropes and turn the tides in your your favor. Think how disheartening such an instance would be if you've only got Peacock left on your team and your opponent still has 2 healthy characters left. It's easy to just look at a portion of the issue from training mode and go "well, there is low resources, carry and damage...I guess that about wraps it up!" and then fail to also consider the momentum of the match and how a strict Undizzy affects that. The fact people want the system to go ever further than that astounds me.
Tomo009
Well-Known Member
All 3 of Fortune, Fillia and Painwheel's air reversal supers lead to full combo on hit, hardly reset to neutral I think haha, its a complete momentum reversal, you should always reset Fortune and Painwheel on the ground. Fillia is risky to reset anywhere.
Spencer
Painwheel
Can't you go into a burst bait and keep up the pressure? Or sweep them and keep up the pressure? Don't both options reset dizzy?
Dime
The power of BEAT EXTEND
I'm just going to QFT that. It should be obvious, but it seems that some people dont know these things...or simply gloss over them as if they dont exist.
Resetting fortune is best done with crossups (air and ground) cause all of fortunes reversals are forward moving torpedo attacks.
Painwheel should obviously be reset on the ground so that her only reversal option is her terrible, though slightly buffed but still terrible ground super.
Filia should be burst baited and block baited
Double, peacock, bella, parasoul, squigly and big band should be air reset
Val should be treated like filia or player specific tendencies should play a bigger role in how she, in particular is reset.
blufang
Ink does a body good
Just wanted to address a comment a long time ago that those who want to play neutral should play Peacock. Yeah she is a certain type of cheezy zoning neutral, like O. Sagat from ST or V-13 from Blazblue: CT or Cable from MvC2. She is annoying as hell to fight against and terribly boring to play. Even Peacock players seem annoyed when they have to face a Peacock themself. If winning was my only goal I'd probably pick her up, but I play Skullgirls to have fun.
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