Possible new IPS

[Mwisk]

230 Undizzy doesn't feel right. Seems to give different significant amounts of damage from certain characters' tools. Certain combos pathways feel stricter than before. Maybe try it with 240 Undizzy in the future?

 

[IsaVulpes]

230 Undizzy doesn't feel right. Seems to give different significant amounts of damage from certain characters' tools. Certain combos pathways feel stricter than before. Maybe try it with 240 Undizzy in the future?

Examples? I can still do everything I want to do with all of Parasoul/Peacock/Painwheel/Filia. Actually, reducing it to 220 would still work most likely.
210 would require some changeups, 200 was pretty strict. Not sure what you're trying to do with what character that doesn't work @ 230 and is in any way 'necessary'.

 

[Mwisk]

Filia is getting 8k on corner with easy to combo stuff while Val needs to go for a more stricter path to do like 6/6.2k, in the same situation. A small increase would allow her to be more consistent in comboing characters without having to resort to tough stuff, while still dealing around 6.4/6.6K damage which is good enough, but not enough to restrict pathways of a character who has to resort to heavy scaling normals to begin with. Bella can get even more than Filia, with like mid-screens too. Also, I'm not sure on this last one, but Filia seems to wall carry better, she seems stronger with 230, since other chars aren't keeping it up in a good way.

Any change on CH on this build?

Currently a very quick impression, not optimized, but I'm always curious as to what people can come up with, regarding optimization, and how modifiable it's to reach similar results.

 

[Alstein]

Then why did you pick up this game? It doesn't sound to me like you want to play a game like Skullgirls.

Here's why I picked up the game, despite certain locals really not understanding why I'd like it (Darklight could attest to that):

1) I loved the art style and music, I knew I wanted this game when I first heard about it 10 years go

2) I wanted to support an American FG company


I honestly was expecting this game to be another mediocre Arcsys-clone when it came out, and initially, this game was pretty damn mediocre. That said, Mike Z has really polished this up over time , and it's now my favorite FG game despite not being perfect/what I would call perfect.

When a game is great but not perfect, I get passionate about wanting it closer to perfection. That's the stage I am at with this game.



BTW in the above post, one of my friends I got into this game recently, he got mad at and quit VF5FS over effectively what you just mentioned, though more in the aspect of what it did to the rest of the game (he felt it destroyed nitaku, and it does to a certain extent). He really sees some of older VF in Mike Z's vision for SG (as do I, though we both agree it's imperfect and unrealized)


To me at least, the real impact I wanted to see is lower damage from combos to increase the importance of resets. Just making combo paths stricter I think does more harm than good.

 

[blufang]

Obviously there is a lot of difference of opinion here. Ultimately it's Mike's game, and what I think he is trying to do (though I'm not a mind reader), is making the game..

1. Less loopy
2. Strengthen the neutral game, and make it less of hiding behind assists to do everything
3. Prevent mindless assist spam, through heavy penalties
4. Further combo creativity while at the same time shortening them somewhat
5. Make it much more based on resets, so the defender has more chances to escape
6. Make solos more viable. It probably is still 3>2>1.

 

[Hilary]

Yes, a well optimized combo in most FG does huge damage... but not many games confirm like SG confirms.

I watch KoF, Tekken, GG, SC, MK, and Injustice (monday, whoo!!!) and the time spent in neutral ie out of combo is significant relative to SG.

I feel like that's a community meta issue more than a problem with the game.

I think it's important to note that all that time spent in neutral accurately reflects how deeply serious people are about not getting hit by two combos. Each game varies and I won't say fear of combos is the only reason those games have relatively longer/deeper neutral games, but it's definitely a large part of it.

I feel that defense is often the last thing anyone tries to understand in Skullgirls, and in our game/meta, everyone is in this combo arms race that's not really going to get anyone much further. It's like everyone hates or is terrified of combos, but instead of trying to practice all of the things that would help prevent/survive agression and combos like people would in any other game, people just practice combos of their own.

If you replace airbags with knives, everyone drives the speed limit. If you're scared of crashing and dying on the knife in front of you, the solution is not to install a bigger, sharper knife in someone else's car, it's to get better at driving.

 

[Beuzer0]

If you replace airbags with knives, everyone drives the speed limit.

Best comment ever.

 

[Narroo]

Many if not most, are, yes.

Bb "combos" suffer the off axis/non perfect spacing starter syndrome where they can only be confirmed into very small combos from many spacings, but can go huge with optimal spacing and starter.

@Narroo


I'm paraphrasing here, but in your last post you say that learning longish combos is something that some people, yourself included I would think, don't like doing, yet, you think its fine to learn long combos off obscure starters that only start in the corner...

That to me is kinda like putting the horse before the cart. Because what you are basically saying is that we will still have to learn longish combos, but now those combos are less relevent... Meaning that not only do we still have to learn longish combos... We now have to learn largely irrelevant combos as far as their current utility is concerned.


Which makes little sense to me, cause I know that I for one would hate learning combos under that system. It would feel like a waste of time.

BlazBlue doesn't have short combos; I'm just more familiar with it. That said, it's still much shorter than skullgirls. A meterless 5A mid-screen with no counter does not land you the sillyness that happens in skullgirls.

What I mean is that I don't think that basic BnB's should be these gargantuan monstrosities whose length dominates the game both in matches and in training. Having longer combos in more specific situations is fine if you earn it; If you manage to save your resources, bait a reversal, position correctly, and so on, it's perfectly fine to be able to perform a combo that's not basic BnB you see every match. This has two effects: The long combos have real meaning and are actually impressive because they are occasional and earned. Also, it allows people to pick up the game/character without having to deal with arbitrary execution barriers. (Who wants to spend 5 hours in training mode before they can even play a decent match? Not everyone is good at learning combos....)

Of course, that would have the odd effect you mentioned of making some more minor things harder to learn. Honestly, I'm fine with that. If you're learning how to do fatal counters in the corner you already can play the game and are simply taking that to the next level. I don't mind the higher level stuff being a bit harder to learn out of necessity. I'm a fan of "easy to learn, hard to master."

 

[Zidiane]

You could always just try reading the patchnotes..

I went through all the notes again. I don't see extra undizzy mentioned anywhere after 11-2 notes. It never says it was taken away, I assumed they came back when undizzy came back. And still, opinions about past experiments could still be useful, as Mike Z could still have not made up his mind on one of them.

Also, this means that all my damage counts were me avoiding using any button twice, in fear of a limit that wasn't there. Don't know if I could have gotten more damage somewhere.

 

[Spencer]

I feel like that's a community meta issue more than a problem with the game.

I think it's important to note that all that time spent in neutral accurately reflects how deeply serious people are about not getting hit by two combos. Each game varies and I won't say fear of combos is the only reason those games have relatively longer/deeper neutral games, but it's definitely a large part of it.

I feel that defense is often the last thing anyone tries to understand in Skullgirls, and in our game/meta, everyone is in this combo arms race that's not really going to get anyone much further. It's like everyone hates or is terrified of combos, but instead of trying to practice all of the things that would help prevent/survive agression and combos like people would in any other game, people just practice combos of their own.

If you replace airbags with knives, everyone drives the speed limit. If you're scared of crashing and dying on the knife in front of you, the solution is not to install a bigger, sharper knife in someone else's car, it's to get better at driving.

But to stick with the analogy, in this case we are advocating for the removal of the knives (or more accurately, smaller... safer knives :P ). I don't disagree with you, but you find a good poking meta in those games as well. I think SF is kind of a yawn fest, but KoF and Guilty Gear are both dynamic and great fun to watch while having big damage, good neutral, and poke.

The reason we are in a combo arms race is because right now it is the best price to performance. You don't need to know much about this game. You need 1 pocket combo (maybe 2... Double you bitch), and the ability to confirm which is made doubly easy in this game.

It isn't uncommon to corner someone who clearly knows nothing about your character, the capabilities of their character, or how to defend and take them from 100 to 0 with little problem only for them to surprise you the next round with a huge combo off of a luck confirm. I think that speaks more to a sickness in the game than to intentional design, but I could be wrong about that.

 

[Icky]

It isn't uncommon to corner someone who clearly knows nothing about your character, the capabilities of their character, or how to defend and take them from 100 to 0 with little problem only for them to surprise you the next round with a huge combo off of a luck confirm. I think that speaks more to a sickness in the game than to intentional design, but I could be wrong about that.

If you're playing against someone who doesn't know anything about the character you are playing then they are so new that NONE of this matters even slightly. Balancing this game around people who have never played before does nothing but fuck over any player who actually does play.

 

[blufang]

Narroo makes a fabulous point. Now KOF XIII has 70, 80, even 100% damage combos with some characters. However do u want to waste all 5 bars of super, and 100% of ur drive? You have to empty out your resources completely, resources that u spent a long ass time saving. In Skullgirls the cost of combos is tiny, you can get a ton with 1 meter or even meterless. This is why games are long combo after long combo. This is why as opposed to other games with high damage combos, that the majority of time in Skullgirls is being spent being comboed or comboing someone else. Add to that as others have pointed out u can confirm off of anything, meaning any stray hit leads to a giant combo.

 

[Pandamanana]

Narroo makes a fabulous point. Now KOF XIII has 70, 80, even 100% damage combos with some characters. However do u want to waste all 5 bars of super, and 100% of ur drive? You have to empty out your resources completely, resources that u spent a long ass time saving. In Skullgirls the cost of combos is tiny, you can get a ton with 1 meter or even meterless. This is why games are long combo after long combo. This is why as opposed to other games with high damage combos, that the majority of time in Skullgirls is being spent being comboed or comboing someone else. Add to that as others have pointed out u can confirm off of anything, meaning any stray hit leads to a giant combo.

Very good point. Perhaps a decrease in meter gain rate would solve the problems?

 

[Hilary]

But to stick with the analogy, in this case we are advocating for the removal of the knives (or more accurately, smaller... safer knives :P ). I don't disagree with you, but you find a good poking meta in those games as well. I think SF is kind of a yawn fest, but KoF and Guilty Gear are both dynamic and great fun to watch while having big damage, good neutral, and poke.

I would agree; Guilty Gear requires one of the broadest skillsets in the games I've seen. Spacing, offense, combos, oki, defense, and good judgement/reads, on top of all the really unique character mechanics. I do feel skullgirls has most of that, but instead of Oki or emphasis on point judgement reads, you have resets and assists to consider.

That said, I don't think the discrepancy/emphases on those skills between games exists as it does because of combo damage though, but rather the fact that you're playing solos or teams.

The reason we are in a combo arms race is because right now it is the best price to performance. You don't need to know much about this game. You need 1 pocket combo (maybe 2... Double you bitch), and the ability to confirm which is made doubly easy in this game.

I won't disagree; combos/damage are still really important. But consider that maybe the price:performance of combos and damage is/seems incredibly valuable because no one's practicing defense. In a metagame like ours, that's really strong, but I do believe it's going farther than it should because of neglected aspects of gameplay.

It isn't uncommon to corner someone who clearly knows nothing about your character, the capabilities of their character, or how to defend and take them from 100 to 0 with little problem only for them to surprise you the next round with a huge combo off of a luck confirm. I think that speaks more to a sickness in the game than to intentional design, but I could be wrong about that.

I have to go with Icky on this one; if there's character mechanic/strategy considerations that the defending player isn't aware of, I don't think that's a systemic problem with Skullgirls.


edit: I suck at xenforo formatting. ;_;7

 

[Dime]

BlazBlue doesn't have short combos; I'm just more familiar with it. That said, it's still much shorter than skullgirls. A meterless 5A mid-screen with no counter does not land you the sillyness that happens in skullgirls.

What I mean is that I don't think that basic BnB's should be these gargantuan monstrosities whose length dominates the game both in matches and in training. Having longer combos in more specific situations is fine if you earn it; If you manage to save your resources, bait a reversal, position correctly, and so on, it's perfectly fine to be able to perform a combo that's not basic BnB you see every match. This has two effects: The long combos have real meaning and are actually impressive because they are occasional and earned. Also, it allows people to pick up the game/character without having to deal with arbitrary execution barriers. (Who wants to spend 5 hours in training mode before they can even play a decent match? Not everyone is good at learning combos....)

Of course, that would have the odd effect you mentioned of making some more minor things harder to learn. Honestly, I'm fine with that. If you're learning how to do fatal counters in the corner you already can play the game and are simply taking that to the next level. I don't mind the higher level stuff being a bit harder to learn out of necessity. I'm a fan of "easy to learn, hard to master."

So, basically what we have here folks, is once again, a player that comes from a different game... And seems to want to bring that game to skullgirls...

I wonder why since you like bb so much, you don't just stick with that game?

I love oldschool streetfighter, but I want oldschool streetfighter in old school streetfighter.


Also, seriously, this is just my opinion, but I hate bbs:

Fatal counters
2a damage proration
Super long hitstop on everything
4 buttons

And more.

Though yes I was wrong about bb I meant gg when replying to isa, though yes bb does have short combos it isn't like gg in that aspect.
I didn't change my post because I haven't had the time, and it's to late now.

Narroo, there's no problem with wanting certain systems from one game in another, it's another thing to come out and talk about a games current systems as if they aren't good and that those systems could change to that of a fighter that you play. I mean, I if wanted bb systems I would play bb. when i want streetfighter systems I play streetfighter.

I guess my problem with your logic is the way you seem to throw it out as if bb's damage proration and massive amounts of mechanics is a good thing, when to me its anything but... Though Kokonoe is the first character that has really made me want to check out the game seriously since... Arakune... But that's ot so whatever.

 

[Spencer]

I have to go with Icky on this one; if there's character mechanic/strategy considerations that the defending player isn't aware of, I don't think that's a systemic problem with Skullgirls.

Perhaps you're right on the "community needs to practice defense more". I just think that defense in this game is relatively... boring. There are no interesting mechanics. Hold db, watch for an overhead, try to predict throws (or mash if you are 90% of this community). But I do admit that we don't see a lot of defense oriented gameplay at any level but the highest (which is arguably all defense until your freaking updo connects).

My point on the quoted bit wasn't that we need to balance around beginners not able to defend, but rather it is a sick system that allows such a beginner (one that has no neutral or understanding of the game but has an optimized pocket combo) to compete on relatively equal footing given a confirm.

One lucky mashed out super on your reset = half your life + the momentum is in their favor. Now, god forbid you eat an assist or whatever else... you are dead or close to it.

My point isn't that you shouldn't be punished for mistakes, you should (especially dropped combos, misreads, etc.). My point is that the combo system we have now artificially inflates skill below a certain level because the gain for a huge combo on a confirm is massive.

 

[Narroo]

My point isn't that you shouldn't be punished for mistakes, you should (especially dropped combos, misreads, etc.). My point is that the combo system we have now artificially inflates skill below a certain level because the gain for a huge combo on a confirm is massive.

And consequently, it makes learning the game very combo heavy. Why practice much else when you NEED to perfect that crazy long combo in order to maximize chances of wining?

 

[Spencer]

So, basically what we have here folks, is once again, a player that comes from a different game... And seems to want to bring that game to skullgirls...

I wonder why since you like bb so much, you don't just stick with that game?

I love oldschool streetfighter, but I want oldschool streetfighter in old school streetfighter.

Oh this is bullshit, dismissive, and insulting.

Learning lessons from other games is something that should be encouraged, not mocked.

Not many of us want SG to be anything other than SG. We just think there are things about SG that aren't perfect (and you of course are free to disagree with us) and we bring in lessons learned from other games. Hell, the only FG I play are KoF, SG, and GG (and Monday, Injustice), and I started on SG. That doesn't mean I can't bring in things I liked about those game into a discussion of "what would you like to see in SG". Nor does it mean that I endorse everything about those games especially not relative to SG (we talk a lot about what we'd like changed in SG, but we are all here because there is a lot to love about it).

In any case, try to give those of us on the other side some consideration. You wouldn't be thrilled if we boiled down your position to, "Dime_x is just afraid of change."

I'd like to acknowledge that you did address the rest of it after your snarky starting paragraph.

 

[Alstein]

Very good point. Perhaps a decrease in meter gain rate would solve the problems?

I'd go the opposite route, make supers do more damage, make the other stuff less damaging. (maybe by a different damage scaling system?)

This would also decrease the reward execution grinding would get (you'd still get a meter bonus). Also would increase the value of using supers outside of combos as wake-ups slightly.

 

[Number 13]

The logic of "If I wanted to play a game like X then I would play X instead" doesn't really work in Skullgirls case when the game is hardly unique at its core. It adopts and enhances other existing mechanics in other fighters. It doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, but instead gives the wheel some bling and spinners to carve its own identity.

Which begs the question that each player will ask themselves 'what is the ideal version of "My Skullgirls" '?

Some people prefer the current incarnation of the the relatively long length combos arguing it leads to creativity that is a result of hours of practice following the "Get Gud" philosophy. Others are opposed to this and argues for further stricter combo systems to decrease the likelihood of "one player mode" combos in matches like the game is "DDR: The Fighter" favoring for more reset/neutral situations.

In any case, the fact is Mike the developer feels the need to tweak the current system (MDE) on the beta alludes the current system isn't quite up to his vision for his Skullgirls.

Do I feel MDE is perfect? No in my honest opinion. It sure was an improvement over vanilla and SDE though. That doesn't take away though that it could still be improved. "Why become a mere Millionaire when you can become a Billionaire?" In all likelihood even if the game was directly tailor-made for me and I feel the game became "perfect" I'm pretty sure someone else would feel it's anything, but "perfect".

This means compromise has to happen to appease to both sides of the fence which is one of the reasons I think these numerous beta test experiments for the IPS is happening to find the right equilibrium. It appears to be sacrificing simplicity and elegance for complexity and try-and-true roughness. We don't know which style is essentially "better" or even "true" to Skullgirls in the end so lets not belittle each other for having different visions on how the game should end up to be.

 

[Alstein]

MDE to me was when this game started to realize its potential.

Ultimately what SKullgirls becomes is up to MikeZ. Hopefully the game keeps moving towards what I want- I realize I won't get fully what I want, but I want something where the main factor in whether a player is legit or not is the ability to make reads, not doing some safe assist into a 20 second over half-life combo if you barely get touched. (why I'm also glad assists are a bit riskier now)

 

[View619]

Perhaps you're right on the "community needs to practice defense more". I just think that defense in this game is relatively... boring. There are no interesting mechanics. Hold db, watch for an overhead, try to predict throws (or mash if you are 90% of this community). But I do admit that we don't see a lot of defense oriented gameplay at any level but the highest (which is arguably all defense until your freaking updo connects).

My point on the quoted bit wasn't that we need to balance around beginners not able to defend, but rather it is a sick system that allows such a beginner (one that has no neutral or understanding of the game but has an optimized pocket combo) to compete on relatively equal footing given a confirm.

One lucky mashed out super on your reset = half your life + the momentum is in their favor. Now, god forbid you eat an assist or whatever else... you are dead or close to it.

My point isn't that you shouldn't be punished for mistakes, you should (especially dropped combos, misreads, etc.). My point is that the combo system we have now artificially inflates skill below a certain level because the gain for a huge combo on a confirm is massive.

If you play against a player with no neutral, you can dominate him to the point where he never gets into a situation where he has a chance to confirm anything; having an optimized combo is not enough, you will get wrecked by any player who can play the neutral well and not just run at you trying to get his combo off first. Beginners with optimized combos and nothing else will always lose to better, smarter players. Thankfully, there is no come back mechanic that "gives you a fighting chance".

 

[blufang]

They will lose to better, smarter players who also have nice lengthy combo if not optimized. What if one player only has a 10% damage combo, while the other person has a 100% combo with one reset? The former has to make 10 reads to the latter's 1. There is no doubt that nuetral (which mostly consists of assists), is important to landing that first hit. However if u don't have at least a decent damage combo, u don't have a chance against someone with optimum combos even if they are inferior in the neutral game. The point is yeah superior/smarter players will almost always win if they also have a great (even if slightly less damaging) combo themselves.

On supers, it would be nice if they did more damage. Maybe make other hits in a combo have much more severe scaling, while supers have much less scaling.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

I just think that defense in this game is relatively... boring. There are no interesting mechanics. Hold db, watch for an overhead, try to predict throws (or mash if you are 90% of this community). But I do admit that we don't see a lot of defense oriented gameplay at any level but the highest (which is arguably all defense until your freaking updo connects).

I'd have to say I disagree with that, with us having pushblocking, pushblock guard cancels, and alpha counters. Even when on the defense you have the opportunity to quickly turn things around with proper timing and reads. It's just that at lower levels people like to downback and mash a DP assist, which against good players who know how to adapt quickly, you will get blown up for that.

 

[Spencer]

If you play against a player with no neutral, you can dominate him to the point where he never gets into a situation where he has a chance to confirm anything; having an optimized combo is not enough, you will get wrecked by any player who can play the neutral well and not just run at you trying to get his combo off first. Beginners with optimized combos and nothing else will always lose to better, smarter players. Thankfully, there is no come back mechanic that "gives you a fighting chance".

This isn't fully true. I will give you that the better neutral will usually win, but you are talking about "perfect" games. My point is that mistakes do happen. You reset and they are mashing, you try and cross up and overshoot, you throw a fraction of a second too early, you jump into an assist you thought was on lockdown.

These things happen, my argument is that mistakes like this are disproportionately punished by bad players (the gap minimizes top tier vs top tier simply by virtue of less mistakes). This makes for some potentially dynamic games where you are 100% life to 25% life, fuck up and all of the sudden it is 50% life to 25% life, but my question is how many mistakes should cost you a round?

 

[View619]

They will lose to better, smarter players who also have nice lengthy combo if not optimized. What if one player only has a 10% damage combo, while the other person has a 100% combo with one reset? The former has to make 10 reads to the latter's 1. There is no doubt that nuetral (which mostly consists of assists), is important to landing that first hit. However if u don't have at least a decent damage combo, u don't have a chance against someone with optimum combos even if they are inferior in the neutral game. The point is yeah superior/smarter players will almost always win if they also have a great (even if slightly less damaging) combo themselves.

On supers, it would be nice if they did more damage. Maybe make other hits in a combo have much more severe scaling, while supers have much less scaling.

Dominating neutral means you dominate the match. I never even have to combo to win and you'll never be in a position to confirm into anything, as well as getting your bad assist calls blown up frequently. I understand that SG combos are really strong, but they are not something that give "bad" players a fighting chance against "top" players, that's just silly.

On topic, I am of the opinion that "big" damage should require you to spend the meter to do it; low cost, high damage scenarios aren't interesting at all. If I've gained the meter for a tod and you fuck up once, I should be able to kill you off of it from an unscaled starter for example (which goes towards making resets better since they give less meter for the kill).

 

[Spencer]

I'd have to say I disagree with that, with us having pushblocking, pushblock guard cancels, and alpha counters. Even when on the defense you have the opportunity to quickly turn things around with proper timing and reads. It's just that at lower levels people like to downback and mash a DP assist, which against good players who know how to adapt quickly, you will get blown up for that.

That's fair, and I did forget to mention pbgc (though I think pushblocking is borderline mindless as well) as being dynamic.

That said, I think that mashing is understated. I have seen top level players mash out supers, which says it is at least viable (though likely not in the "everytime I get hit" situations we see it in at lower levels).

 

[Camail]

Pushblock is only mindless if the other person's pressure is also mindless. Pushblock isn't just about "any time I'm in blockstun I should just mash out pushblock" because there are ways to abuse that view, for example you can bait a pushblock with a move that has low blockstun and make them do a backdash instead. You are by no means required to be a passive defender.

 

[blufang]

Dominating neutral means you dominate the match. I never even have to combo to win and you'll never be in a position to confirm into anything, as well as getting your bad assist calls blown up frequently. I understand that SG combos are really strong, but they are not something that give "bad" players a fighting chance against "top" players, that's just silly.

You are using extremes, obviously top pro players are going to destroy people who absolutely suck at the game or are completely new regardless. However what about people who don't absolutely suck at the neutral game, but are decent...yet knowing the optimum combos vs someone who is substantially better at neutral (but not worlds apart) but can't string more than 5 or 6 hits together? I'd put my money on the former.

 

[View619]

You are using extremes, obviously top pro players are going to destroy people who absolutely suck at the game or are completely new regardless. However what about people who don't absolutely suck at the neutral game, but are decent...yet knowing the optimum combos vs someone who is substantially better at neutral (but not worlds apart) but can't string more than 5 or 6 hits together? I'd put my money on the former.

I'm using extremes yet you're talking about 10% vs 100% damage combos and stringing 5-6 hits together in SG?
Yeah...I think we're done here. Moving right along.

 

[Icky]

I'm using extremes yet you're talking about 10% vs 100% damage combos and stringing 5-6 hits together in SG?
Yeah...I think we're done here. Moving right along.

Exactly my thoughts lol.

 

[blufang]

If you play against a player with no neutral, you can dominate him to the point where he never gets into a situation where he has a chance to confirm anything;

Yeah you are the one who started with the extremes. Just wanted to have a discussion about the importance of long combos vs strong neutral game. Extreme examples like "A player who knows optimum combos but has no neutral game vs a pro player with godlike neutral game" are an easy way to duck the topic, but that is your perogative. Seems better to move on if it isn't going to be discussed seriously.

 

[NCV]

Way to keep on topic guys.

I haven't tried the new build yet but less undizzy but CH bonus has done wonders for how i feel about the game. People who say it's turning SG into "something it's not," are...interesting.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

The reason we are in a combo arms race is because right now it is the best price to performance. You don't need to know much about this game. You need 1 pocket combo (maybe 2... Double you bitch), and the ability to confirm which is made doubly easy in this game.

There's also the size of the community. If I wanted to work on my defense I would need access to good players of every other character to play against. Just finding matches can be hard sometimes, and even when you find someone there's no guarantee that he will be playing the character match-up you want to work on. Add to this the myriad combinations of characters and assists and it's a real chore just to get to the point where you can start training. It's no wonder that some people decide to just focus on developing non-interactive strats with their main.

 

[Icky]

Yay Big Band, but on topic with the new IPS: Patch notes are extremely depressing, THIS change might be the one? With Parasoul I can't do anything creative anymore unless I want to fuck my damage to the point of being laughable. I've been doing this thing in my combos for the past few months were I do napalm pillar to cerecopter and combo off of that, and due to being able to use it later in my combo it was a cool, unique thing that no one else did that did respectable damage. Now If I want to do that I have to use it so early that it scales my combo to being worthless. The only shit I've been able to find with her that does even 6.5k with meter is generic, boring, and bad looking.

If this is SERIOUSLY the most likely change to be added then I feel crushed.

PLEASE if you NEED to add any of these changes, just do the tracking enders + starts IPS, at least with that one i felt like i could still have at least SOME sense of creativity.

I AM FUCKING BEGGING YOU

 

[blufang]

Instead of begging, just state your reasons. Everyone's opinions on this are equal, no one is going to get exactly what they want. It will be Mike's ideal vision along with some pleasing of the general fanbase. You can't please everyone, it is impossible.

 

[Icky]

Instead of begging, just state your reasons. Everyone's opinions on this are equal, no one is going to get exactly what they want. It will be Mike's ideal vision along with some pleasing of the general fanbase. You can't please everyone, it is impossible.

read my post again. READ IT, I STATED REASONS.

 

[blufang]

Yes I know, even if it seemed more a complaint you can't do a combo you could before rather than a general criticism of the system. Just cut the begging, it doesn't do anyone any good.

 

[Icky]

Yes I know, even if it seemed more a complaint you can't do a combo you could before rather than a general criticism of the system. Just cut the begging, it doesn't do anyone any good.

You totally didn't read what I said. i clearly stated that it's because uniqueness of combos is getting neutered and different combo paths are a lot less viable now, forcing you to do generic stock shit. Jesus christ.

 

[Number 13]

Yeah mike pretty much addressed these kind of complaints.

[Some change] hurts my character!
That's probably true, but remember the changes affect EVERYONE. If you're having trouble getting the damage you used to, so is everyone else. Now, if the reason you thought your character was good or fun is because they can kill you off a light hit with no meter, I have news for you - that's not what designers want. Players always enjoy overpowered tactics, and designers do too, but if the tactics exist to the detriment of everyone else they will be fixed.

Sucks you feel your Parasoul lost its "uniqueness", but this change isn't just for your Parasoul. He would listen to complaints if the general consensus was the IPS changes made the game feel overall worse. Doubt Mike will change the undizzy limit much at this point if he feels "its about right" since he been hinting about "getting closer" to finding the right equilibrum since a few patches ago.