Possible new IPS

[Jason]

I'd like to try 240-250 undizzy with setting undizzy to zero immediately after the end of the combo. My only real problem with current undizzy limit is how badly it shortens your reset combos.

I know with the 350 undizzy limit that long combo - reset - long combo was a pain in the ass and not very fair, but I feel like with the reduced overall combo length that undizzy carry over could be removed? Just a thought.

Also please don't scale down big band he's so awesome.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Patch notes are extremely depressing, THIS change might be the one? With Parasoul I can't do anything creative anymore unless I want to fuck my damage to the point of being laughable. [..] The only shit I've been able to find with her that does even 6.5k with meter is generic, boring, and bad looking.

Evidently.

Parasoul's combo freedom has been killed entirely.
(Note: The combos start the last chain with 200/220/230 Undizzy - Everything is very very unoptimized)

 

[IsaVulpes]

I'd like to try 240-250 undizzy with setting undizzy to zero immediately after the end of the combo. My only real problem with current undizzy limit is how badly it shortens your reset combos.

Does it? I played some 50 matches on the 230 and slower deterioration build and didn't hit Undizzy a SINGLE time(!!), while also not feeling gimped at any point.
200 was a bit too strict for my taste, but I expected Mike to lower the 230 further and/or increase the deterioration time to see where it becomes restrictive.

Instead he ups it again AND throws faster deterioration on top.. I honestly don't see no reason at all for doing this;
Especially given he said just YESTERDAY that he'd "put it as low as possible without being annoying". 230 definitely wasn't annoying.

 

[Darklightjg1]

I didn't like 230 because the normals I had to omit or replace just made comboing harder than it had to be for some of my stuff. 240 eliminates that for me with a tiny sacrifice of damage (don't really care, it was the lesser damage combos anyway), but it makes lightweights A LOT more tolerable to juggle.

I'd still prefer more undizzy (somebody came up with something during one of the experiments that started off cool and would've led to something so much sicker with MDE's undizzy. It was strict as hell though and would've mostly been for style points.)

Anyway, I've got a few paths to roll with under these conditions. Not too strict on what it prevents me from doing, but I can only speak for myself here. Damage is still relative to what other characters can do (not soviet-level without a shit ton of meter or skewed ratio).

 

[RemiKz]

I really feel like taking a leave from the game if undizzy stays as it is. It honestly kills a lot of the fun I had with the game. Stun starting at stage 3 not only really restricts the freedom the game offers, but also makes resets a pain to keep track of because you hit stage 3 so soon and oops undizzy burst from just a couple of hits into your reset.

Instead of just experimenting to the lowest tolerable change, can we experiment with stuff that keeps the game fun without making it ridiculous? So far, most of the "good" players I've discussed the changes with haven't really had anything positive to say up to now, they just aren't very vocal on skullheart.

I'm going to suggest again to try 230-250 stun starting at stage 5, assist scaling to 66% and counter hit reducing stun by 100 (assist counterhit only reduces by 50).

 

[ClarenceMage]

From what I've tried out, I really like the the combo length in the current build of the beta. For the first time in history, being lazy at fighting games is paying off for me.

 

[Mwisk]

I think Mike might finally have found a nice threshold to the Undizzy. The current 240 undizzy with -25 on lights CH, -50 on mediums CH, -100 for heavy CH + the new assist behavior (66% scaling on normal hit, 90% scaling and -50 undizzy on Counter Hit) is looking very interesting. Both keeping combo paths varied for reaching an effective damage spectrum and it added more liking possibilities. CH are useful and something to be mastered in the future (assist frame traps setups etc.). Undizzy decreases faster too, which makes fast resets threatening and more slower mixups super dangerous.

Currently damage seems to be floating around 7k for 1 meter for most characters non mid-screen. From optimal situations you can net a little bit more.

Currently, to me, it feels like it has everything, shorter but nicer combo length that still allows for variety in comboing approach. Links have a little more breathing room for those fancy combos. Undizzy resets faster enough to give resets more gas. Throws are still damaging and CH will be valuable resource and CH Assists will still net beefy damage for all of you who like to empty jump call assist.

So far I can't see anything to change about this one. But again, let's experiment... this is actually becoming fun, also, Biggu Bandu!!!

 

[KhaosMuffins]

I don't like or dislike the fact that undizzy builds up during stage 3, but I do dislike how undizzy burst can trigger during stage 3 because there's only so much you can do to setup another reset before stage 3. But I tested the beta out for a bit and I only ended up setting off undizzy once (and I kinda knew it'd set off in the next chain anyways); even when I played against a solo with a trio I kept chaining reset after reset and managed to get a quick kill without setting off undizzy. I guess the faster deterioration and counterhits make up for it, so yay. I'd like to know how it affects others with reset-heavy playstyles, though.

Also, Fortune's head applying 45 undizzy off of a juggle makes me sad. :(

 

[IsaVulpes]

I don't like or dislike the fact that undizzy builds up during stage 3, but I do dislike how undizzy burst can trigger during stage 3 because there's only so much you can do to setup another reset before stage 3.

The problem with Undizzy not bursting in Stage3 is this:
- You're at 1500 Undizzy
- Parasoul hits you
- [c.LK s.MP c.HP > j.MP j.HP j.HK > Snipe DHC Something]
- You just took some 9k Damage (in 3v3)
It pretty much makes the whole deterioration etc thing meaningless, because you just die in 2 touches anyways.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

The problem with Undizzy not bursting in Stage3 is this:
- You're at 1500 Undizzy
- Parasoul hits you
- [c.LK s.MP c.HP > j.MP j.HP j.HK > Snipe DHC Something]
- You just took some 9k Damage (in 3v3)
It pretty much makes the whole deterioration etc thing meaningless, because you just die in 2 touches anyways.

I totally just responded to you in the IRC but I'm gonna post my reasoning here as well for others to see.

Khaos: "There are only so many resets I can setup in stages 1 and 2, so then I'm basically forced to end everything. It also hurts grab resets for certain characters."
Vulpes: "Alternatively you can always just not hit the undizzy limit khaos

"
Khaos: "It's hard when you can't tell what the undizzy counter is at. Sure you can just guess, but if I end up getting a reset off too quickly and the counter doesn't countdown enough, I can't just go into stage 3 and attempt another reset. I have to either hope that I CAN reach stage 3 or just end my momentum. (by this I meant end my combo instead of keeping up the guessing game with my opponent)"

 

[RemiKz]

The problem with Undizzy not bursting in Stage3 is this:
- You're at 1500 Undizzy
- Parasoul hits you
- [c.LK s.MP c.HP > j.MP j.HP j.HK > Snipe DHC Something]
- You just took some 9k Damage (in 3v3)
It pretty much makes the whole deterioration etc thing meaningless, because you just die in 2 touches anyways.

Wait so leaving an opening for your opponent to possibly escape/counterattack and using up 2 meters shouldn't reward you with taking out a character in 3v3 where damage is higher than 1.0? I thought the point of using a 3 man team was to have more tools at the expense of your characters being frail. Using up 2 meters like that is meter negative as well, so it's not like you aren't giving up something. I would maybe understand if you could pull off the kill with a single reset and super, but you really can't with the combo length this restricted.

At this point, I'm not even bothered so much about the combo length as much as stage 3 stun hurting resets so much, especially throw resets.

Once again, I don't understand why we are only testing the lowest tolerable changes and not trying something that doesn't bother the other half of the player base.

 

[Spencer]

Wait so leaving an opening for your opponent to possibly escape/counterattack and using up 2 meters shouldn't reward you with taking out a character in 3v3 where damage is higher than 1.0? I thought the point of using a 3 man team was to have more tools at the expense of your characters being frail. Using up 2 meters like that is meter negative as well, so it's not like you aren't giving up something. I would maybe understand if you could pull off the kill with a single reset and super, but you really can't with the combo length this restricted.

At this point, I'm not even bothered so much about the combo length as much as stage 3 stun hurting resets so much, especially throw resets.

Once again, I don't understand why we are only testing the lowest tolerable changes and not trying something that doesn't bother the other half of the player base.

I'm okay with throw resets taking the hit, and I say this as one who throw-resets constantly. They are brutally hard to counter (harder than a hit reset imo). I just wish there was a way to track your dizzy a bit (like a glow around your character that gives an "at a glance" estimate as to where you are at).

I think you can "feel" it out in one combo, and no doubt we'll get used to feeling it out after resets to some extent, but that damn green burst still takes me by surprise (and I can't imagine I'm alone).

 

[Mwisk]

Maybe what we need is a small Undizzy meter under the lifebars, to keep track of things, like 3rd Strike stun bar.

 

[NCV]

I'd rather have it like GG, where the character portrait flashed when you're close to getting stunned, but you still don't *know* how much it's going to take to get stunned. I think having a bar which would give too exact a value only benefist the defender.

 

[Luweewu]

Neither of those are likely going to happen. Mike has said multiple times that an undizzy gauge of any sort isn't happening unless he's changed his mind (no indication of that). We went over this in the old SH Undizzy thread.

 

[Spencer]

Neither of those are likely going to happen. Mike has said multiple times that an undizzy gauge of any sort isn't happening unless he's changed his mind (no indication of that). We went over this in the old SH Undizzy thread.

But we can dream?

I do think it is a conversation that needs revisited. It seems like Mike is moving undizzy more toward a legitimate game mechanic that is likely to happen in game from a game mechanic meant to protect against certain abuses.

 

[RemiKz]

I'm okay with throw resets taking the hit, and I say this as one who throw-resets constantly. They are brutally hard to counter (harder than a hit reset imo). I just wish there was a way to track your dizzy a bit (like a glow around your character that gives an "at a glance" estimate as to where you are at).

I think you can "feel" it out in one combo, and no doubt we'll get used to feeling it out after resets to some extent, but that damn green burst still takes me by surprise (and I can't imagine I'm alone).

Now stack the fact that throw starters already scale the rest of your damage with only being able to do a few chains because of stage 3 stun, and that throw reset will do a pitiful amount of damage to the point of not being worth doing.

I'd rather have it like GG, where the character portrait flashed when you're close to getting stunned, but you still don't *know* how much it's going to take to get stunned. I think having a bar which would give too exact a value only benefist the defender.

The counter argument to this is that the bar would also be visible to the guy doing the combo, so if he knows the opponent is burst happy and is watching that bar, it'll be a lot easier to burst bait him. With that being said, I'm fairly sure Mike said it's not happening either because it's not easy to add stuff like that or he just didn't like it.

 

[Icky]

Once again, I don't understand why we are only testing the lowest tolerable changes and not trying something that doesn't bother the other half of the player base.

Quoting this just so it can be in this thread more

 

[Dime]

Unfortunately I don't have time to wax poetic against vulpes' post as well as "others" but the stage 3 undizzy is not good at all when applied to throws. A common sense change such as making throws do regular damage, or making undizzy only kick in at stage 5 from a throw, or making stage 3 ALOT slower to kick in on throw starters, is needed.

If throws get made shit... I'm seriously not going to be happy. Throw game is half the reason why I love sg.

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

I also think visible undizzy is something to be revisited; managing, or at least adapting to, your undizzy value is going to become an actual part of gameplay now and is no longer a way to exploit the longevity of your combos, so making it invisible is like making health bars invisible.

 

[Tomo009]

Or make a string after throw not automatically stage 3, if that were at all possible.

I need to test this version more, my knee-jerk, been in the lab but not much play reaction would be that this seems to affect Squigly disproportionately to other characters I've tried. Fillia really doesn't even feel the lowered stun at all in my experience.

I need to get to testing in game, a lot of my resets aren't instant, so it could be that with the faster decay I'm actually able to reset more without glowing green now, in which case I'd be content with this version because that's kinda what I do.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Just something to let me know if I'm at least over 170 (or some other value) stun or not would be helpful to know if it's safe to attempt another reset or if I should just end my combo with a super would be nice. I'm mainly afraid of people coming across situations where they believe they just "randomly" hit undizzy because they got a reset off a few frames too early, because in some matches I'll get off reset after reset and not set off undizzy, yet in others I end up setting off all of the time. So at least knowing whether or not one is about to hit the undizzy limit would be helpful. Though I mainly only stand by this belief if stage 3 undizzy stays.

Everything else about the new IPS I like, though. Combos are a good length, the undizzy deterioration is nice (though I still stand by what I said above), you can still get creative especially when using assists in your combos, and I actually kinda like that Valentine, Filia, and (headless) Fortune took a bit of a hit in damage when they're the characters with the best mixup, reset, and pressure games along with a good set of tools to help in neutral, while the grappler does a fair bit more damage. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this) It's a shame that we couldn't stick with MDE a bit longer, but meh.

 

[Jason]

Once again, I don't understand why we are only testing the lowest tolerable changes and not trying something that doesn't bother the other half of the player base.

The current change only trunkates about 2 stings off of the end of current optimized MDE combos. TBH increasing it by a significant amount would just bring us back to MDE combo length and we already know how that works.

 

[Spencer]

The current change only trunkates about 2 stings off of the end of current optimized MDE combos. TBH increasing it by a significant amount would just bring us back to MDE combo length and we already know how that works.

Plus, granting that this is the "lowest tolerable change (which I don't think it is)" is a nice way to get a range. I think you've already seen it with x < dizzy < y is a good value for dizzy which is far better than just dizzy < y.

 

[RemiKz]

The current change only trunkates about 2 stings off of the end of current optimized MDE combos. TBH increasing it by a significant amount would just bring us back to MDE combo length and we already know how that works.

I'm not saying to increase it by a significant amount. We can always, you know, try a lower stun than 240 with stun counting at stage 5. How about 200 stun starting at stage 5? I don't know how good or bad that would go, but isn't that the point of experimenting anyway?

I already mentioned that the combo length isn't as big of an issue to me as stage 3 stun.

Plus, granting that this is the "lowest tolerable change (which I don't think it is)" is a nice way to get a range. I think you've already seen it with x < dizzy < y is a good value for dizzy which is far better than just dizzy < y.

You would be surprised how many people don't post on skullheart and are very much against the current beta.

 

[Spencer]

You would be surprised how many people don't post on skullheart and are very much against the current beta.

You would be surprised how many people don't post on skullheart and are very much for the current beta.

In any case, that doesn't matter. All I was pointing out is that using extremes (as you feel they are) is a perfectly valid way of narrowing down the field of changes.

 

[RemiKz]

You would be surprised how many people don't post on skullheart and are very much for the current beta.

In any case, that doesn't matter. All I was pointing out is that using extremes (as you feel they are) is a perfectly valid way of narrowing down the field of changes.

I would be, considering a lot of the well known players I chat with seem to be against this because they are the one pushing the limits to the point where they see the flaws. Not to put everyone else down, but I strongly feel like a lot of the people that are ok with the current state of the beta aren't testing the extremes or actually playing matches. People that make posts like this:

From what I've tried out, I really like the the combo length in the current build of the beta. For the first time in history, being lazy at fighting games is paying off for me.

 

[Broken Loose]

Once again, I don't understand why we are only testing the lowest tolerable changes and not trying something that doesn't bother the other half of the player base.

We already tried that; it was called the Squigly Beta.

A visible stun gauge would not positively contribute to the game. 2 things would happen:
1. Defenders would have a very clear indicator of when to stop mashing reversal. All the complaints about Super Flash Hitstop would come back and drown everybody.
2. The attacker gets a massive advantage due to being able to focus way more attention on the stun gauge than the defender. Short resets followed by long combo gets reversed at precisely the most convenient time for the attacker, when long combo followed by reset was supposed to be the strategy discouraged by green sparks.

If the attacker has a shorter (or has a perception of a shorter) period of time to reset, resets are more interesting and less single player. The problem with SDE resets was that defending against them was impractical because they could happen at any fraction of a second within the 35-second window that was the entire combo, the difference between spotting a specific needle in a pincushion and a needle in a haystack.

If you, as the attacker, want a deterministic indication of when the green sparks will occur, either allow enough neutral to let your combo points drain, cause the appropriate type of knockdown, or bait a burst. If you, as the defender, want a deterministic indication of when green sparks will occur, stop mashing.

 

[Spencer]

I would be, considering a lot of the well known players I chat with seem to be against this because they are the one pushing the limits to the point where they see the flaws. Not to put everyone else down, but I strongly feel like a lot of the people that are ok with the current state of the beta aren't testing the extremes or actually playing matches. People that make posts like this:

Look, you don't need to be pro to see the flaws.

The long combos bore a lot of people (and boredom has zero to do with "pushing anything to its limits").

Moreover, I think the lack of a neutral (which is prevalent at all skill levels, but more so below the pro level) is a huge hurdle for new folk who don't feel like they can do anything. For what its worth, it is probably the better players who feel the issues less (not more). And, might it be possible, just maybe, that those at the tippy top have a vested interest in keeping the game as is?

Finally, some of the disagreement between you, me, and whomever else is simply design preference. I prefer neutral game. I've made that abundantly clear. I'm pro-"anything that gets me more neutral". In some sense, this may put me at odds with those that prefer less neutral (or things that lead to less neutral), but that doesn't make me, you, or anyone else wrong for a preference. It is on this last point that I want to stress that a few on your side seem to want to brow beat, insult, and generally act like d.bags because some of us would like to see the game head in a different direction than them.

 

[RemiKz]

Finally, some of the disagreement between you, me, and whomever else is simply design preference. I prefer neutral game. I've made that abundantly clear. I'm pro-"anything that gets me more neutral". In some sense, this may put me at odds with those that prefer less neutral (or things that lead to less neutral), but that doesn't make me, you, or anyone else wrong for a preference. It is on this last point that I want to stress that a few on your side seem to want to brow beat, insult, and generally act like d.bags because some of us would like to see the game head in a different direction than them.

I don't mind a neutral game. I use Peacock and over half of my gameplay is neutral. I do mind the way it is forced in the current beta. I already presented why I think it's flawed.

Do you think that with a combo > reset > DHC, you shouldn't be able to take out a character in 3v3? From a 1 meter start, you are literally exhausting your entire 2 bars and left with nothing, ON TOP of the fact that the next character is going to come in with super stacked stun because their stun carries over from knocking out a character. That doesn't sound unreasonable to have in the game given you gave up your resources and combo potential to use on the incoming character. Hell, that is already forcing a neutral.

I can guarantee you that there will be plenty of neutral to go around with testing something like 200 stun limit starting in stage 5. What I don't like is that Mike doesn't seem like he is willing to try something like that because he thinks he hit a sweet spot. I already said I think the combo length is fine, I just think the way it effects resets is flawed and he should consider other options.

 

[Spencer]

I don't mind a neutral game. I use Peacock and over half of my gameplay is neutral. I do mind the way it is forced in the current beta. I already presented why I think it's flawed.

Do you think that with a combo > reset > DHC, you shouldn't be able to take out a character in 3v3? From a 1 meter start, you are literally exhausting your entire 2 bars and left with nothing, ON TOP of the fact that the next character is going to come in with super stacked stun because their stun carries over from knocking out a character. That doesn't sound unreasonable to have in the game given you gave up your resources and combo potential to use on the incoming character. Hell, that is already forcing a neutral.

I don't know how I feel about 3v3 to be honest. I do know that I don't like 1v1 being a 2 combo game. I do know that I despise being stuck in a two (or three) character combo for what feels like half the match. I know that in multiplayer games it is almost universally acknowledge that there needs to be meaningful counter play for players which there isn't during a combo which means the longer you are in a combo, the less "multi" there is in "multiplayer".

It is pejorative that we refer to being stuck in a combo as "single player", but it is kind of true isn't it? "Oh... you just got hit. Take a drink of water, wipe off your hands, maybe stretch a bit... this could be a while".

 

[scrubbyscum999]

Now, I am a beginner and a scrub. I don't honestly understand the dizzy system that well, hell I am still trying to learn my first combo. However, I have been watching this game since summer time this year and I feel I know enough about strategies good players to use to have a little input. Watching the various new beta IPS builds I am very discouraged. One of the great things about this game I think is the relatively long combo length. It is a very interesting and more importantly allows for creativity as well as just showing how much of a badass you are. Some of the IPS builds I have seen beta somehow severely limit the creativity of combos and burst will activate REALLY early.

Thus the combos are short and in my opinion boring. I am all ok for making the game more reset heavy, even though I feel you can already play like that if you want, but as a noob I like the game the way it is. I personally don't feel the supposed lack of neutral game is a problem. Again, as someone new I find the lack of neutral compared to something like 3S encouraging because it makes the game more flashy and ultimately as a beginner it feels more encouraging to me. Finally, as a noob I don't like the idea of the game just changing just because when I just started it. I like the the idea of something being consistent. Nobody was saying much when MvC2 didn't change or 3S, and those weren't even play tested much PLUS they had broken stuff in it. People still had fun. I do want gameplay changes, but they are very simple.

-I agree with scaling assists to about 50-60%, assists should be important but not so much so you pick Double just for Hornet Bomber
-Making solos more viable, how you do that I don't know but it would be nice to see this without changing the game too much
-Nerf Fortune, no lie this is probably the most balanced FG in history but Fortune is too good when both players are of equal rank. You have to try so much harder to beat Fortune in that case. There is a reason she is the only high level solo character you see right now.
-Give Double more tools for fighting, I know she has gradually got more stuff but I still feel she is considered an assist character first
-I would say buff Painwheel and Squigly, but seeing what pros can do I still am going to hold off on this one for now. Might put buffing Parasoul in there too
-This last one is sort of big but it would be nice if some new moves could be made so there are more assist options. This is sort of a dream request since that would take a lot of work

I am not saying my word should be taken with as much weight as say KhaosMuffins but I have been hearing a lot of "it's teh noobs that want these IPS changes." That may be true, but as a complete noob with NO FG experience I would like to say that I don't want much changed. To me if the IPS just ended up staying the same after all of this or even reverted to a previous build I would be completely fine with that. I feel most effort should be put in to characters rather than the system itself. That's my two cents.

 

[Broken Loose]

-Making solos more viable, how you do that I don't know but it would be nice to see this without changing the game too much

anything you had to say has been completely invalidated by this

 

[scrubbyscum999]

anything you had to say has been completely invalidated by this

Ok, thanks I guess. ;(

 

[Chip Blaster]

-Give Double more tools for fighting, I know she has gradually got more stuff but I still feel she is considered an assist character first

As a (former) Solo Double player, I think she has enough tools for fighting, actually, with the damage she can output. Just my own two cents.

 

[Broken Loose]

Ok, thanks I guess. ;(

This is a discussion very close to another thread's, but solos are already really good (especially if your neutral sucks but your combos are good, because any random hit turns into a dead character).

 

[scrubbyscum999]

This is a discussion very close to another thread's, but solos are already really good (especially if your neutral sucks but your combos are good, because any random hit turns into a dead character).

Tell that to duckator. I don't see a lot of solos around high level play. The only solos I see are Fortune, and even that isn't common. But whatever, I am not going to get hung on this one small point.

 

[Spencer]

Tell that to duckator. I don't see a lot of solos around high level play. The only solos I see are Fortune, and even that isn't common. But whatever, I am not going to get hung on this one small point.

I agree to some extent. Right now, 3s are strong for two reasons in my opinion.

1. Guaranteed 3 chances regardless of combo damage, length, resets, anything else. 3 chances.

2. Assists. This game seems to be wait for assist, confirm, kill. If there was any single buff solo needed, it is vs assist.

That said, both points are being addressed. The second has been addressed by assist damage nerfs. Hopefully that will take out some of the sting of having to deal with updo or pillar.

The first is being addressed in this thread actually. IPS and Dizzy changes could, in theory, combine well enough to take the sting out of some of the huge combos which take obscene amounts of your life (even with reduced damage).

At this point, I am super wait and see on any buffs to solo. Their damage output is such that any real buff could push them well over in my opinion.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Solos don't need buffing. Their damage and health is fine and within a reasonable amount; you just have to deal with the fact that you have less options and just have to work harder than your opponent to get a hit and to get out of pressure.

Anyways, back to talking about the beta....

 

[Broken Loose]

Tell that to duckator. I don't see a lot of solos around high level play. The only solos I see are Fortune, and even that isn't common. But whatever, I am not going to get hung on this one small point.

That's exactly my point, though. Solos more often than not are a way for bad-to-mediocre players to compensate with higher damage output and the ability to make more mistakes, neither of which are a sustainable strategy. They won't beat Duckator consistently because he has good defense, good neutral, quick adaptive abilities, and good psychology, but he is capable of being randomed out by solos occasionally. Good solo players like Khaos exist, though, but that's because they're legit good at the game. Most solo players aren't, yet they are still very threatening for the reasons I stated.