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Possible new IPS

The problem with snap ins is it's such a gamble of meter. It isn't like marvel where meter is easily accrued, and then one touch on an incoming character is total death. snaps in THAT game are good. In sg with the fact that damage is now low (no 1hit kills and low meter gain, plus no tac etc etc) resources to kill don't grow on trees. Plus no character in the fame is Arthur/Phoenix level where they are a super liability on point. You snap in double... You have to deal with catheads plus assists... And you've used a valuable killing resource. If snaps in sg did something redundant like give the snapper a one time only damage buff for like 600 frames... Snaps would be worth it in my mind... But in current sg they aren't because most teams have 3 good assists and there are few to no assist characters... Plus there are more than just cats as a safe dhc. There's also hatred install, peacocks Lenny, parasouls bikes, squiglys sbo

That's 5 out of 9 characters that have safe (ish) dhc... So snapping double doesn't exactly get rid of the problem and assist lockout on snapped in characters doesn't help that much when one combo will kill the lockout period and allow the snapped in character to assist defend itself.


Snaps are good right now but only situationally speaking for double snaps, and low health characters or high red life characters... They aren't that great for getting rid of full life problems though... Because the problem will usually just bite back at which point all you've accomplished is spreading the damage across 2 characters instead of 1 and losing a meter to do it.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Annnnnnd I'm kinda done with this thread. It'll be in the beta at some point or it won't. I've certainly learned my lesson and will keep any experiments or mentions of them to a small group of people in the future. Capcom policy, forward!
I'm sad now. By the time I get back on the internet ya'll broke Mike. If it's worth anything, I very much would like the development of new mechanics to stay open.

@everyone_else_including_mike_z
I have like a 10k combo with Solo Cerebella that works on everyone except Double midscreen with the new system (2 meters, I think it is 1 meter start). There's a lot to read so I'm not sure how much discussed it's been, but I thought I'd share that because people were talking about damage in the parts I skimmed.

My only thing I don't like this new system for (it was really weird at first, but I've gotten used to it already and it seems better, though I still think changing the game system too often may be bad, though I guess doing it now before Beowulf and Eliza show up is good since a lot of new players may show up then) is that I can't do with bella c.hp, j.lk, j.hk, c.lk, c.mk, j.mp, j.hk, anything. That's not really a loop with j.hk, but it's getting affected. I think there's more good than this small gripe coming out, but it'd be nice if this could be not affected. Maybe have moves that eat an OTG not count towards the new IPS-ender thing? That's my suggestion, I guess.
 
Playing around with it didn't really change anything for me, just made me go "okay so do something else" and I have the same damage as usual give or take a few bits. So it'll be interesting to see how this changes things and if it stays at all. So I look forward to trying it out more and see how it evolves, look how vanilla started up until now.

Filia_Blackachu.jpg
 
Dime_x said:
The problem with snap ins is it's such a gamble of meter. It isn't like marvel where meter is easily accrued, and then one touch on an incoming character is total death. snaps in THAT game are good. In sg with the fact that damage is now low (no 1hit kills and low meter gain, plus no tac etc etc) resources to kill don't grow on trees. Plus no character in the fame is Arthur/Phoenix level where they are a super liability on point. You snap in double... You have to deal with catheads plus assists... And you've used a valuable killing resource. If snaps in sg did something redundant like give the snapper a one time only damage buff for like 600 frames... Snaps would be worth it in my mind... But in current sg they aren't because most teams have 3 good assists and there are few to no assist characters... Plus there are more than just cats as a safe dhc. There's also hatred install, peacocks Lenny, parasouls bikes, squiglys sbo

That's 5 out of 9 characters that have safe (ish) dhc... So snapping double doesn't exactly get rid of the problem and assist lockout on snapped in characters doesn't help that much when one combo will kill the lockout period and allow the snapped in character to assist defend itself.


Snaps are good right now but only situationally speaking for double snaps, and low health characters or high red life characters... They aren't that great for getting rid of full life problems though... Because the problem will usually just bite back at which point all you've accomplished is spreading the damage across 2 characters instead of 1 and losing a meter to do it.
Wow, you'd lose your shit if you ever discovered Marvel vs. Capcom 2.
 
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winnie said:
Opponent goes for a reset and I have 2 bars I will always reversal and if that fails Ill just DHC to cat heads to make it safe, advantage goes to me.

I think that speaks to the problem of easy DHC (specifically Install and Catheads). Could be fixed by putting a lock on it kind of like an assist lock, right? Maybe lock DHC for x frames if you've been hit within t frames? t wouldn't even have to be a huge number (ie not affecting other parts of the game) since DHC comes literally frames after being hit in a DHC reversal.

Of course, it could convolute the game further, though you could argue that by the time you see the power in cathead/install DHC, you are already fairly familiar with the game?
 
Spencer said:
I like it.

I'd love to see combos shortened/damage lowered per confirm.

SG has a super fun neutral game with a fair amount of depth that is almost entirely minimized once you get a single hit. Not to mention that I much prefer a reset heavy game.
I don't think people understand yet that damage will likely not be lowered, combos will likely not be shorter, and the game will likely not become more reset based because of this change. The combos will just look different, and corner carry might be a little different (I think Val will still be able to go corner to corner though, not entirely sure.)
 
Zidiane said:
I can't do with bella c.hp, j.lk, j.hk, c.lk, c.mk, j.mp, j.hk, anything. That's not really a loop with j.hk, but it's getting affected. [...] but it'd be nice if this could be not affected.
I mean, every character is equally effected by this. PW loses buer loops, double lose barrel loops. El gato, val's rejumps with j.hp, napalm shot loops...Everyone's got to learn new stuff.
 
Broken Loose said:
Wow, you'd lose your shit if you ever discovered Marvel vs. Capcom 2.


Wow... I'm replying to you... and I will try to keep it civil.... Wow.

Ok so, I don't think you or mcpeanuts read my post... Perhaps you should. What assist only character is in sg? You snap double in and you've still got a major problem... Perhaps even worse than the original problem.

You snap in cyke, or psylocke, or capcom in mvc2 and it's damn near problem solved cause they as a whole suck against the god tier on point.

So yeah I don't see what you are referring to. Care to enlighten me?

-edit

Though this has nothing to do with the current post, it's an add on to the previous post:

Let's not forget that in mvc2 snap ins were even better because of guard break on incoming. Just another thing that makes snaps good in that game... And I still don't remember lots of snaps against points in that game to get in the assist only character.
 
Dime_x said:
Wow... I'm replying to you... and I will try to keep it civil.... Wow.

Ok so, I don't think you or mcpeanuts read my post... Perhaps you should. What assist only character is in sg? You snap double in and you've still got a major problem... Perhaps even worse than the original problem.

You snap in cyke, or psylocke, or capcom in mvc2 and it's damn near problem solved cause they as a whole suck against the god tier on point.

So yeah I don't see what you are referring to. Care to enlighten me?

I like Cyclops...
 
konkrete said:
I mean, every character is equally effected by this. PW loses buer loops, double lose barrel loops. El gato, val's rejumps with j.hp, napalm shot loops...Everyone's got to learn new stuff.

Not equally; randomly. The combos you can get out of their movesets will change with the system and the combos that different characters produce aren't gonna be perfectly correllated with what they can do now. I don't think combo potential has ever been all that "balance targeted" but this will be a reshuffle again.
 
obregon said:
Not equally; randomly. The combos you can get out of their movesets will change with the system and the combos that different characters produce aren't gonna be perfectly correllated with what they can do now. I don't think combo potential has ever been all that "balance targeted" but this will be a reshuffle again.
To add an example, I think having multiple launches will be more important now.
 
destruction_adv said:
I don't think people understand yet that damage will likely not be lowered, combos will likely not be shorter, and the game will likely not become more reset based because of this change. The combos will just look different, and corner carry might be a little different (I think Val will still be able to go corner to corner though, not entirely sure.)

Yeah, I read Mike's post after I had posted that. That said, I think it will still affect damage (or up the skill for execution that it will implicitly affect damage) for a lot of characters. I keep thinking about PW, and depending on how it is implemented, it could potential hurt her damage potential (@Krackatoa where are you when we need you!).

Of course, back to my original post, MikeZ did say that community drives the vision (even if it is contrary to his vision), and a reset heavy/shorter combo game does seem to be what the community wants... so I'm still hopeful.
 
I am all for the game turning into more GG/Vsav territory (either do some short ass combo into beefy oki that the opponent can virtually defend if both he and you aren't silly and THEN you get big damage if you decide to spend a crap ton of bar/are in the corner).

I hope Undizzy stays and maybe it starts are stage 4 but the "they have to be at neutral for 4 seconds" shit stops?

Maybe Undizzy starts at a certain damage point instead of button restriction?

So you can stop your shit and reset or knock them down or go for long shit but knowing that Ips is coming up?

And to be real, ain't much change since 2 man teams still kill everything with a meter or 2, because EVERYTHING IN THIS GAME EVER CORNER CARRIES.
 
So, how would everyone feel about Ex moves?

Do what Ishiwatari did and make "red butterfly" cost meter? (yeah that was worded terribly but you get the point)

You get your old cheap shit for half a meter, make combos build shit meter in general?
 
Bleah that would make meter more of a comeback mechanic than it already is
 
iLoli said:
So, how would everyone feel about Ex moves?

Do what Ishiwatari did and make "red butterfly" cost meter? (yeah that was worded terribly but you get the point)

You get your old cheap shit for half a meter, make combos build shit meter in general?

Nah, SG doesn't need any more mechanics added. It just needs to settle down soon. If it's going to be like reset-oriented or combo driven, it needs to be decided soon.
 
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or it can be both
considering undizzy forces you to pick one of the two and they both have their benefits.
 
View619 said:
Nah, SG doesn't need any more mechanics added. It just needs to settle down soon. If it's going to be like reset-oriented or combo driven, it needs to be decided soon.
I think Mike's already decided what he's wanted.

The community as a whole seem to be screaming "RESETS" while going "B-B-B-BUT WHERES MY DAMAGE, HE DID SOMETHING DUMB SO HE NEEDS TO DIE RIGHT NOW".
 
Have street fighter style stun and make it so landing some # of raw hits in quick succession (like from a couple quick resets) can give you a no meter kill somehow.
 
dekillsage said:
I thought the neutral game was updo/hornet bomber.
You missed "SUPER INTO SAFE DHC TO GET IN" and "air bypass into scapel".

I'm starting to think that a few assists need to get beat into the ground during a beta to show just how ass a lot of our neutral is.

Not forever, but for like, a week and a half.
 
iLoli said:
You missed "SUPER INTO SAFE DHC TO GET IN" and "air bypass into scapel".

I'm starting to think that a few assists need to get beat into the ground during a beta to show just how ass a lot of our neutral is.

Not forever, but for like, a week and a half.

Air Bypass into Scalpel on block for pressure is still in? Why?
 
View619 said:
Air Bypass into Scalpel on block for pressure is still in? Why?
Whenever I see that dumb girl get started in the air, I DH.

I will admit it's a dead ass pain for Parasoul, goddamn is it a pain.

I just got back into the game, and I don't have immediate access to it all the time, but I'm gonna start messing around with jumping strong.

My squigs is terribad at the moment so I have no answer, maybe if I center stage while she's bypassing in the air her bypass will......."bypass" me?

The boy needs a damn pc.
 
I'm no where good but I do INTENSELY like the idea of not seeing a lot of loops ever again. I don't care if the combo is a basic ground / launch / air / end to super / DHC or a long string or even if it seems completely disjointed and nonsensical. What I do care about is seeing the same combo multiple times in a row that registers as the same combo (loops).

Not to say I want them gone, Its just an irritant. I can deal with a differing of opinion on an otherwise agreeable thing. We've got it pretty good here either way just remember that and try to stay positive.
 
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iLoli said:
Whenever I see that dumb girl get started in the air, I DH.

I will admit it's a dead ass pain for Parasoul, goddamn is it a pain.

I just got back into the game, and I don't have immediate access to it all the time, but I'm gonna start messing around with jumping strong.

My squigs is terribad at the moment so I have no answer, maybe if I center stage while she's bypassing in the air her bypass will......."bypass" me?

The boy needs a damn pc.

Air to Air will shutdown the raw Bypass. I'm just surprised that it hasn't been removed, but oh well.
 
iLoli said:
My squigs is terribad at the moment so I have no answer, maybe if I center stage while she's bypassing in the air her bypass will......."bypass" me?

Some quick advice, if you bump into me... j.hp until I'm dead. I still haven't figured that shit out.
 
People need to stop talking about resets and snaps and damage. This idea is not about those.

People have given examples of combos that do comparable damage to the current system. Snaps are completely irrelevant. The only change to resets would be the fact that without undizzy you would be able to reset into an equally long combo, which probably means it will be 1 reset into death in most circumstances, and 100% with enough meter to burn.
 
I agree with Woofly entirely from page 2. I took a small break from this game due to family issues but I've pretty much been dying for the combos in this game to be short. Really short. Like one launcher per combo short. I also think this game has some nagging fundamental issues that should be addressed, which I HOPE this change may bring about. I want the characters and their tools to be fully realized, to bring out the absurd hidden potential in them, but as it is now we're still playing a game where no one has ANY problem being right in the face of the grappler of the game. I mean you should be DEATHLY afraid to be next to her but that's just not the case, and that's just one example.

So yeah, I am all for this pretty hard.
 
IIRC, you can jump and airthrow Val after bypass scalples, it's just no one does so it's a get in free card. And now I'm off-topic.

Uh, what is there left to say on the actual topic oh, here's something. When will this be in the beta anyway, and are they going to have it track starters too? Is Mike Z considering that?

EDIT: and Master Chibi, we've been over this several times in the thread, this probably won't make combos shorter or easier, or even less damaging. That's not what this is about.
 
destruction_adv said:
IIRC, you can jump and airthrow Val after bypass scalples, it's just no one does so it's a get in free card. And now I'm off-topic.

Uh, what is there left to say on the actual topic oh, here's something. When will this be in the beta anyway, and are they going to have it track starters too? Is Mike Z considering that?

EDIT: and Master Chibi, we've been over this several times in the thread, this probably won't make combos shorter or easier, or even less damaging. That's not what this is about.
Nah, I do it, I just want to punish them before they even get the Scapel off.

I dunno if a guy named Chase comes here, but he came down to play with my rusty ass 2 weeks ago and that scapel shit don't "fly" 'round here.

Nah, this is in part "make the bnbs shorter".

Maybe not less damaging, but definitely shorter.
 
Spencer said:
Some quick advice, if you bump into me... j.hp until I'm dead. I still haven't figured that shit out.
It is irritating, but you can play against it. Treat it like one of sims limbs(you can hit it) so pepw j.mp thrown out preemptively will tend tomrade from huge ranges. Also, I should probably check this out.... But painwheels hk buer should suck it in on hit as well.

Lol I'm
Kinda not liking the new ips... After experimenting for awhile with starters and Enders tracked, all I could manage was7820 damage (1meter) via some tough links and character soecific stuff.... So... So far I'm seeing increased execution for less payoff, which I'm not really liking ATM. So far all I'm really seeing is that resets will be much better now that I dizzy is gone... Which is a good thing but the increased execution... Isn't.
 
Dime_x said:
Lol I'm
Kinda not liking the new ips... After experimenting for awhile with starters and Enders tracked, all I could manage was7820 damage (1meter) via some tough links and character soecific stuff.... So... So far I'm seeing increased execution for less payoff, which I'm not really liking ATM. So far all I'm really seeing is that resets will be much better now that I dizzy is gone... Which is a good thing but the increased execution... Isn't.
That's still half of someone's health bar, and someone else may come along and find something that does even more damage. If you don't have the execution or don't feel like you can reliably do something in a match, then just go for a reset.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
That's still half of someone's health bar, and someone else may come along and find something that does even more damage. If you don't have the execution or don't feel like you can reliably do something in a match, then just go for a reset.
b-b-but mai garunteed damage
 
I am just one man, and a rather insignificant one in the realm of Skullgirls. Still I really like the one launcher per combo idea posed by by master chibi. So u can ground combo into a chain land and ground combo some more into a super possibly? Or go for a reset, but can't launch multiple times just cause the character has multiple buttons that work as launchers.

I also really like what iLoli said about the game going more in the direction of Guilty gear and Vampire savior, those are games that are definitely aggressive and with flashy combos. Yet they aren't combos that go forever, and there is a heavy focus on the neutral game.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
If you don't have the execution or don't feel like you can reliably do something in a match, then just go for a reset.

I don't get this sentiment. Resets and hard knockdown oki and incoming mixups are exactly the same kind of execution as combos. It's a script you play back. They just don't work sometimes. If a reset has really loose timing that lets it work for meathands it's probably neutral putting on airs
 
blufang said:
I am just one man, and a rather insignificant one in the realm of Skullgirls. Still I really like the one launcher per combo idea posed by by master chibi.
I feel this may be too strict. In the case of cerebella, that means any combo that already used cHP can't use cMK down the line (see flowchart bella), which would limit a good part of her reset game. I know that's your point, but it seems a bit restrictive.
Maybe another way of doing it (while maintaining dizzy system) is having launchers used after the first launcher add more dizzy than usual (+20? as arbitrary amount) or reduce the height that a character is launched (less sure since I feel some characters would be able to abuse this somehow).
Not sure how good this would be though, so feel free to rip it apart/support it.
 
I'm willing to try out the new IPS, but I'm really hoping the combos won't be any shorter. The current length feels perfect to me, if not just a little too short.
Just getting my opinion out there since everyone else is saying theirs
 
KhaosMuffins said:
That's still half of someone's health bar, and someone else may come along and find something that does even more damage. If you don't have the execution or don't feel like you can reliably do something in a match, then just go for a reset.


It's also still less damage than before
And it's still more execution and
It's still character specific unlike my previous bnb...

And woops, I actually used the same ender twice in it, so nope, that damage isn't applicable. As far as people coming up with more damage... Yeah I know that will happen... The problem is how much execution is it going to take to get to those upper echelons of damage, and how easy to hit those damage numbers online in a 100-150 ping environment, will be.


Offline combos mean absolutely nothing to me outside of evo which takes place 2-3 days a year 10,000 miles away from where I live. Combos doable in 50 ping matches also don't mean a whole lot when the lowest ping I ever get to play is around 85 and the majority are over 100.

Now if it were just me.., fuck it, whatever. But most of the sg population is in the same boat of dealing with 70-120 ping.

Also, resets shouldn't really be mentioned when talking about 1 off combo damage since resets are 2 combos. AND ARE NOT GUARANTEED.

Everyone in this thread knows that they can go for resets to try and get extra damage for a risk.
 
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Yeah I'm not going to start standing on a soap box to state what I think needs to be addressed but if this IPS equals shorter combos then good.
 
I... don't like this at all, seeing how I main Double and the best source of damage for her is her barrel loop for me...
 
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