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SG Game Design Discussion

I don't even think Spencer believed that, I just think he was in the flow of discussion and something wrong came out.

Sometimes you need a jarring effect for people to straight up see something.

Some people like loops, some people don't, but one isn't more braindead or easier or whatever, they both just exist.

Spencer know remembers that.
 
I doubt harsh language on a forum is going to "jar" me into straightening up.

My point is this... combos in SG are some of the easiest combos in any fg. They are so by design.

Things like loops (even the easier ones) are harder in other games. Those loops (as easy as they may relatively be) are dropped, even at the higher level.

You'll almost never see a barrel loop dropped by a remotely competent player.

My criticism is less with loops, but more with the ease vs damage you get out of a SG combo.

Now, I'll avoid the general douchebaggary with which you think this conversation should happen, but your posts are hyperbolic.

Watch the EVO KoF matches. There were no (few?) ToDs and an interesting and dynamic neutral game.

You may argue that SG is done this way by design, and that is fine... but from what I can see, the community wants more time in neutral and less time in combo.

Anyway, I'll end it here. I've got to start wrapping up to close at work.
 
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Wut?

There are no (few?) ToDs in SG as of now.

It's actually a lot like kof 13, a couple of stray hits to put you to around 50 to 60 percent, and then you die, ESPECIALLY around the 2nd/3rd character.

The difference is that the assists are doing the stray hits in this game.

Difficulty shouldn't really be the reason why something is allowed in a game or not.

Resources or risk, sure?

But difficulty, no.

I remember when SMP first came out, and everyone around me was like "man they're too hard to really set up so we're not gonna see them alot" and I just told my scene "wait, it ALWAYS starts that way until that one guy or group cracks the code and the flood breaks through".

Who cares how difficult it is?

Someone somewhere will always have the lab time to make it "practical".
 
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@iLoli

So I think we are talking past each other or you are intentionally misrepresenting my position. Let me sum up:

I mention that I think that the real problem is combos are too easy to execute compared to the damage you get. I mention KoF because though damage can be brutally high, the level of execution to get that damage is higher than it is in Skullgirls. The reason I quoted Clarence is because I think loops are a perfect example of this (why learn say 6 different chains when you can learn fewer and loop them, not to mention that muscle memory etc. makes it even easier). Of course, this loop bit was a relatively minor portion of my post.

I may not have been clear though, so let me take right now to clarify. The damage to difficulty ratio is too damn high.

You then mention KoF has loops... which frankly is beside the point because, the real point is that the execution in KoF is far tighter which decreases the damage to difficulty ratio. You then mention a few examples of other loops... as if pointing out that other games have shit in them some how justifies shit. Not to mention that a few of those games has far tighter execution (often times for less) than in SG. Then you tell me to stop making generalizations right before you make your next post filled with sweeping generalizations.

In any case, you can just watch the EVO videos between the KoF and SG finals. Hell, start a timer and see how long each game spends respectively in combo (another complaint I had in my very first post). Check out the damage that the combos are doing per run and how few and far between resets are (just like I've been bitching about... they do a huge damage combo, reset once, and finish on a huge damage combo).

This game seems to be at a point in which you need to justify your reset as you are often better off just pushing for the damage and ending on a knockdown. I'm saying I would prefer if it gave equal reason to reset vs finishing the combo.

It is important to note that I don't want SG to be KoF (or any other game), but that doesn't mean that it should be immune from criticism, and at least in my opinion it isn't perfect yet (which is about the time criticism should stop, no?).

And yes, difficulty vs damage does matter. It is insane to suggest that it doesn't. You would never implement a combo that would let me push one button 5 times to take down 75% of your life... why? Because it would be too much for too little. Big damage generally comes at incredibly tight execution.
 
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@Spencer

Sorry, but damage has little to do with execution... Or at least SHOULD have little to do with execution. It should be more about opening your opponent up.

Execution is there to balance overpowered moves. Like if there were a safe on block super that did crazy damage and was unblockable from 3/4 screen away... That shit would need to be like a triple 360 while holding 5 buttons and perfectly negative edging the last input (5 button releases on the exact same frame)

In st, there are huge damage combos that require little to no execution... Like fei long fierce fierce rekka...

In new games i dont think that dropping combos is something that the designers should be striving for... That just makes the games look sloppy. The emphasis should be on getting openings and choices made for those openings.

I dont mind semi long combos but i dont mind short ones either and neither is really that much better than the other.
 
Spencer said:
I think the downside is that we end up with combos that are virtually undroppable. That makes huge portions of online play a 1-player game.

Only if you're bad and drop combos, or you live in Australia and the net is garbage THANKS ABBOTT. Therefore we must enforce a ban on players with good execution, and a ban on players with good internet connections - if you have good execution and you don't drop combos, with a good internet connection so that the netcode doesn't drop inputs, that makes a majority of your play a 1-player game, and Skullgirls is better if it's more of a 2 player game. aheuaehuahe
 
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ClarenceMage said:
Only if you're bad and drop combos, or you live in Australia and the net is garbage THANKS ABBOTT. Therefore we must enforce a ban on players with good execution, and a ban on players with good internet connections - if you have good execution and you don't drop combos, with a good internet connection so that the netcode doesn't drop inputs, that makes a majority of your play a 1-player game, and Skullgirls is better if it's more of a 2 player game. aheuaehuahe
Fuck Abbott, that is all.
 
No, Spencer.

Either a combo is too hard to do reliably, then it may as well not exist.
Or a combo can be done in say 95% of cases, then there's little to no difference between it being even easier or not.

You can't balance like that, and nobody does.

Combo execution is there as an entry barrier, so someone who plays the game for three days can't do the same shit as someone who plays it for a year;
And also there because a load of people genuinely enjoy grinding out difficult shit in training mode (Hello Sakonoko).

It has no impact on high level play and game balance at all. If you can do it reliably with training, people WILL be doing it, and won't be dropping it.
"He can ToD, but hey, he has to grind some hours in training mode first so it's fine" does NOT count for anything other than Bulleta's Sakocombo.
 
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I would agree that using execution as a way to limit combos isn't that effective. It would actually focus more attention on your ability to do combos as opposed to neutral game/mixups/defense than there is currently.

With that said, some of the most fun I have in SG is when the combos don't get completed. It's not always pretty, but having to react to dropped combos creatively can make for some really interesting situations, and can teach you things about a character you would never otherwise think of.

As a hypothetical, instead of an execution barrier you could introduce a literal random factor hitstun so that those moments are never really banished from high level play. That sounds heavy handed even to me though. I might be wrong, but I think soul calibur and smash actually allow the person being combo'd some influence on the direction they fall during juggles, which probably has a similar random effect on comboability.

Just musing. For SG I think random factors like that would go against the design of the rest of the game which tends to have set rules that let you theorycraft stuff pretty accurately.
 
Imho the proper place of random factors in games are in environment related stuff. Enemy ai and such. I think the player should have complete control of the outcome of their own actions.

Stuff like Faust in Guilty Gear is differant because both players have options to avoid gambling on that altogether (iirc).

iLoli said:
the opponent should never be thinking "time to think of my punish when he drops this".

To be fair, taking advantage of human error is a good fundamental. It's not something to rely on, but if you can react to it instead of just throwing down your controller the moment you get hit confirmed, that's certainly to your advantage.

I agree with your point though, I just wanted to point that out.
 
Oh yeah, punishing human error is the bee's knees, but it really isn't an implemented factor from the start.

No developer is going "oh they're gonna drop this combo so there's no need to retweak it anyways".
 
Yeah, it's definitely not the point behind execution barriers on combos. I think the point of that is that you reward players with higher fundamental execution skills and game knowledge with better damage. IMO damage should really be the only thing in a fighter that should have an execution barrier on it (besides actually putting your tools to use, but actually being able to utilize said tools in the first place shouldn't have execution barriers).
 
I understand the ideological difference. If you dislike drops (as Dime does), that is as equally valid as those of us who like drops (I feel they provide dynamism to the game).

But to say that they aren't a limiting factor in the genre is wrong. When you have say a 1 frame link, it is a limiting factor and it does get dropped. I am of the (perhaps mistaken) belief that high damage in an fg comes at a cost. That cost is sometimes brutal execution (which is dropped even by pros), a resource like meter, or the potential for a counter punish on whiff or block. No doubt there are other "costs", these are just examples.

Hell, to state my position plainly, I'm not actually opposed to the new IPS changes, but I'm not for them either (I fall on the side of "if it is purely cosmetic, then to hell with it", but I'll gladly relearn my combos if it comes down to it).

I am instead rallying against the practically cost-free damage that comes from a confirm in this game. A large portion of this community (or the one I'm playing anyway) has a pocket combo and zero understanding about any other portion of this game.

The absolute worst parts of this game are 1) the 20+ seconds you have to wait for the asinine long combo to end and then 2) the 20+ seconds you have to shut down the brain to hit the asinine long combo.

The best parts of this game are everything else.

Making execution tighter would have the effect of more dropped combos. Making a resource burst would have the effect of giving you something to do during the combo. I'm hugely pro-dizzy (though I wouldn't be opposed to some transparency in game) as it is effectively a ceiling (one I personally feel is still too high) on how long a combo can be, and I think IPS is a lovely and intuitive system which does its job nigh perfectly. Who knows what the answer is, but my argument is that combo damage is too high for too little cost (whatever that cost may be), and the other aspects of the game are largely minimized because of it.
 
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I don't think I'd dislike combo length in SG if you couldn't confirm off of most things meterless and virtually anything else for 1. That's pretty much it. But if we don't want to change the comboability of moves (i.e. avoiding overly situational stuff) then shortening combos does the next best thing.
 
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1. Those mentioning the Bulleta loop, is very tight and really high execution, few other than Sako pull it off. The damage per hit is really low, and the loop is always eventually dropped.

2. ST has high damage combos, but everything in that game is high damage. It is far less combo based than most other fighters.

3. Execution does matter, quite a few SF4 combos are reliant on 1f links, and even in EVO finals you see these links dropped. U could say there is an element of risk, cause even the most technically able (Sako and the like) drop links, so do u go for that longer combo or a safer shorter one?

4. I watched the entire KOF XIII final and Skullgirls final. There was a ton more 1 player in Skullgirls. KOFXIII had tons more play that wasn't someone in a combo.

5. I just think it is a shame at how amazing these characters are, and how developed their movesets are, yet 90% of the time is comboing someone, or getting comboed.

(Did I use the word combo too much in this post?)
 
Yeah, but Zero hit more loops than he dropped in GFs.
 
blufang said:
1. Those mentioning the Bulleta loop, is very tight and really high execution, few other than Sako pull it off. The damage per hit is really low, and the loop is always eventually dropped.

2. ST has high damage combos, but everything in that game is high damage. It is far less combo based than most other fighters.

3. Execution does matter, quite a few SF4 combos are reliant on 1f links, and even in EVO finals you see these links dropped. U could say there is an element of risk, cause even the most technically able (Sako and the like) drop links, so do u go for that longer combo or a safer shorter one?

4. I watched the entire KOF XIII final and Skullgirls final. There was a ton more 1 player in Skullgirls. KOFXIII had tons more play that wasn't someone in a combo.

5. I just think it is a shame at how amazing these characters are, and how developed their movesets are, yet 90% of the time is comboing someone, or getting comboed.

(Did I use the word combo too much in this post?)
Your usage of the word "combo" combo'd quite well with your post.
 
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Making more damaging/longer combos higher execution isn't going to change anything. People will just hit the lab longer until they learn them, go into a match and lose because they have no defense/neutral as per the norm.
You cannot use "high execution" as the pass for long combos, once they're in they're in.

As far as shortening combos is concerned, I don't think that's really necessary at all at this point. No matter how short you make general combo length, you can't really stop people from going for max damage off of any starter they can get every time. Hell, even if you got like 1k more doing a longer combo than a quick combo with a reset thrown in, people would still do it.

Just keep short combos into resets able to kill without giving your opponent a ton of meter (maybe even giving your opponent less than one bar!) while longer combos give your opponent more meter for the kill. With the power of hit-stop super into DHC and some supers in general, I don't really see why this isn't the way forward now. Maybe reduce undizzy some more to shorten combo length in general, but a new system doesn't seem necessary at all.
 
I trained until Lame loops and extended Carcass Raid loops.

Until Bulleta loops and SMP and A groove Hibiki resets.

That's how you get execution.

You just don't have it.

So when people wonder why people don't drop combos, it's because once upon a time those guys just grinded the shit out of the harder ones.
 
In case people are curious about what exactly the bulleta loop is, I think I found it here. starts at about 1:33
 
@Broseidon Rex

I'm not familiar with Vampire Savior, but that looks like it did less damage than an optimized Skullgirls combo, no?
 
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Spencer said:
@Broseidon Rex

I'm not familiar with Vampire Savior, but that looks like it did less damage than an optimized Skullgirls combo, no?
He dropped it, it's an infinite IIRC so it is a TOD.
 
I've been playing vsav for quite a while (long breaks inbetween and I didn't take it seriously until the end of middle school) and I can only do about 5 reps in training an maybe 3 on a good day in an actual match.
I can only do the baaby version on ggpo.

It's hard.

It's a dashing 2 frame link (the jabs aren't hard, that's just some practice, even when dashing into it someone with decent execution can do it after a day or 2 in real life).

The dashing strong into standing jab is a little harder, but once again, it's not too terrible.

The weird thing about them all is doing them together because all the links have silly timing so you have to keep adjusting.

I've never tried the crouching short version seriously so I have no idea how hard that one is.

There's a player who lives in I believe upstate sc or nc and he can do them no problem and it always makes me salty as shit when I see it.

A lot of the loops are character dependent in the scene that taller characters get the D a lot easier and shorter characters are kind of funky (i think so).

Maybe I'm doing it wrong but on "skinny" chars I feel the need to add extra jabs in, but then again I'm a scrub.
 
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As that Sako combo proves, execution does matter. No amount of lab work will get u infinitying everyone everytime. If Sako drops it (eventually), pretty much anyone will. So it can make a big difference, though to do so the execution has to be difficult enough that it is virtually impossible to hit consistently.
 
blufang said:
As that Sako combo proves, execution does matter. No amount of lab work will get u infinitying everyone everytime. If Sako drops it (eventually), pretty much anyone will. So it can make a big difference, though to do so the execution has to be difficult enough that it is virtually impossible to hit consistently.

Player execution does not factor into what tools a character has. If only one character in a game has a tod, solo meter-less combo off of a standard starter that requires the player to be an accomplished jazz pianist in order to land it consistently while all other chars have short, low damage combos only, it does not change the fact it's the only character in the game with such a powerful tool. Anybody can sit in the lab and grind something out if he's dedicated enough, no matter how difficult it may seem to you. I'm guessing you started fighting games with SG?
 
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@blufang

Do you believe Fortune is the best character in the game?
 
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Lol. U don't know what ur talking about.

If you've ever watched other fighting games you'll see combos dropped all the time cause of execution at the highest levels. These are people that have put thousands of hours into a game. Sure it is an available tool, but it isn't something that even the greatest executors regardless of amt of practice hit 100%. Watch all the dropped links in SF4 finals for example.

Why don't u try to grind that Sako combo out and try to infinity loop everyone to death in a tournament? See how it woks out for u.
 
iLoli said:
@blufang

Do you believe Fortune is the best character in the game?

I don't have an opinion on the best character in the game, why do u ask?
 
blufang said:
I don't understand why execution isn't a good reason for including/excluding tools in fighting games.

I figured as much based on how you're hanging on to "execution". Don't worry, I'll leave it at that.
 
When did I say that?
 
blufang said:
Lol. U don't know what ur talking about.

If you've ever watched other fighting games you'll see combos dropped all the time cause of execution at the highest levels. These are people that have put thousands of hours into a game. Sure it is an available tool, but it isn't something that even the greatest executors regardless of amt of practice hit 100%. Watch all the dropped links in SF4 finals for example.

Why don't u try to grind that Sako combo out and try to infinity loop everyone to death in a tournament? See how it woks out for u.


He's not saying that he can or cant do it. He's saying that execution to provide balance is stupid because there will always be the sakos or desks of the world that can do that thing that was determined to be "to impractical" to be done by humans and therefor doesnt need to be balanced. At least thats what i think hes saying.

In my own personal experience ive run into some players (not on sg) that could do crazy reactionary things as well as crazy execution things, and it had to make me re evaluate the character they were playing.

In other words: some if not most characters are completely different to play against when the opponent has mastered a level of execution with said characters that no one else has.

Fortune to me is the best in the game... Perhaps still. But thats only at the highest levels of memorization and timing execution. There is no one that isnt japanese that has made her look top tier to me. So for practicality purposes i keep her below the "god 3" of val dubs and filia.

.... Waits for incoming shitstorm
 
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The question is:
If hitting that loop beyond 3 repetitions is nigh impossible -
Why not just disallow more than 3 repetitions and balance the character around that?

How are you balancing that character else?
If you balance it around 3, and someone comes who put enough time in to manage to do 4-5, he may be completely broken - that doesn't sound like a good idea?
If you balance it around 4-5, nobody in their right mind is going to pour time into learning a character that doesn't function without 100 hours training mode, and even then isn't better than others

Again, the point is really simple:
EITHER your execution barrier isn't realistically breakable (for example you have a combo that requires four manually timed 1f links in a row), then there's no difference between this combo existing or not
OR it is breakable, then it WILL BE broken. At high level everyone will be doing the shit, and your character will be godlike. Are Zero lightning loops easy? Nope. Are people dropping them? Yes. Is Zero still S-Tier because people hit them more often than not, and the char is hyper strong? Definitely.
Yes, even Sako sometimes drops 1f links. He still goes for them every time, because he hits them /almost every time/. It DOES make a character weaker if you're more likely to drop their combos, but you as a designer have no frickin clue what will be deemed workable, what will never be tried, etc. You cannot balance like this.
 
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There are definitely better ways to balance, and it isn't the smartest way. All I was saying is that execution does make a difference even at the highest levels.
 
Thank you Dime, I was actually waiting for that. :P

blufang said:
There are definitely better ways to balance, and it isn't the smartest way. All I was saying is that execution does make a difference even at the highest levels.

The question was, should execution be a factor in balancing tools at the design level. Nobody is asking/interested in whether or not execution matters at high levels of play.
 
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@IsaVulpes

It was neither inuchiyo nor khaos that made fortune look top tier to me.

Khaos made khaos look top tier to me and updo made inuchiyo look top tier to me.

The fortune im talking about is a random hyper execution jap that margherita used to playa against. H didnt have the greatest neutral (inuchiyos and khaos were much better) but he could could tod or very close to it off all kinds of obscure hitconfirms and head placements... No i dont have a link and yes it was sde. So much of it might not apply. But i saw the makings of a crazy top tier from those videos... Like if inuchiyo had his combo memorization, or he had khaos neutral...

And and your execution balance post is well said.
 
Wait, are people in this thread currently arguing that if you make execution incredibly hard people will still be able to flawlessly pull off ToDs (or giant combos for that matter) everytime if they spend enough time in training mode? Way to neglect everything that happens in an actual match. Let's also ignore the fact that teching a grab in Skullgirls becomes a lot less likely when under the stress of tournament play (see EVO top 8 for more). When someone's down on so much health their bar isn't even visible and their opponent has half health let's see how flawlessly they pull off their only hope of winning. There are still going to be instances of pure, unadulterated magic where someone makes a beautiful comeback against all odds (Daigo's Parry for example) but if you're going to say 1 frame links can be pulled off reliably every single time in actual matches you are fighting a losing battle against reason.

EDIT: Oh ok, you weren't arguing about that but instead about balancing things with execution. I got nothing on that.
 
Just skimming through the page...

I agree that execution shouldn't be used as a balancing tool. Tools themselves should not have execution barriers on using them imo, the only execution barrier should be able to put them to use effectively in the middle of a match (in like a footsies situation, which usually requires good reflexes and being able to do inputs consistently).

Balancing damage (aka stats) with execution is not really needed, because it already kinda is. The higher your execution, the better combos you'll be able to do and the more damage you'll be able to get. Making a characters effective combo execution barrier higher than all the others is a really gimmicky and arbitrary thing to do, and doesn't really accomplish much besides making sure that newcomers can't play that character (which is bad). In a balanced game, you shouldn't have to be Sako just to play a character at the same level as the other characters.
 
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