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SG Game Design Discussion

That's sorta how KoF works and would be fine in my book, but I like Vsav downs as well, .. whatever.
Anything that isn't "You perfectly zone out Filia for 80 seconds and kill her, now your reward is that she's in for free" looks good to me
 
I like the idea that death is always a slide knockdown and play resumes when the downed player gets back up

that should allow for plenty of time to either back off or close in for pressure -- the super animation issue would have to be handled somehow though
 
Personally I have no problem with how Downs work right now, but since suggestions are being thrown around....

How about if it was like in Angel Eyes:
  • Distance is increased if characters are at close range
  • No pre-round movement
Example video: Link because timestamp.

So if you were Peacock and killed in the corner by Val, Val would dash back to midrange and not be able to corner you with no recourse. You're still in the corner (Val got you there so that's her advantage), but you have some breathing room before getting j.HP again. And if you killed Val from fullscreen, she isn't getting in on you for free afterwards.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Do you recall what exactly they complained about? For the life of me I can't see any advantage in letting rushdown chars walk into my face for free.
The only complaint I can even think of would be "It doesn't really feel like killing a character if they just stand up instantly after", which could be circumvented by whatever.. plain freezing the screen for a second?

Same thing for preround movement in teams, how is that anything but a tremendous buff for characters who want to be in the opponent's face while a huge nerf for anyone with slower buttons / a different gameplan?
Because both of you can jump, dash, or do whatever else you want.
 
Woofly said:
Vulpes complaining as Vulpes does, lets ignore him guys and talk about the pros and cons of pre round movement. You know........a real topic.
pros? I dunno really

cons? Show me a game where they don't just walk into each other and use their fastest normal / try to back up but fail miserably cornering themselves.
 
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You can jump OVER the opponent, and you can dash UNDER the opponent and you can do things like double jump or airdash in either direction to gain or close distance.


If people arent doing it already, they need to start using all of those options because if they do it becomes more than just corner ones self, or rushdown with fastest button.

Having said that, i dont really like the pre round movement in this game either, but none of the fixes that i suggest would be implemented so its whatever.


Also, one of the least enjoyable aspects of sg's play in my eyes is the teams start of the round opening mixup gambit... Losing or winning a round based entirely on what i do at start of the round and having little to nothing to do with footsies at all, never sits well with me.
 
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Yeah as someone who usually uses headless Fortune or Filia when playing solo I can't say I put too much thought into what I do in the preround movement time.

With Fortune I don't really care where I am because the head either lets me cover more space or is backing me up (although if my opponent has clearly set themselves up to bully the head as soon as next round starts I'll move in on their face and just mash s.LP or something).

With Filia I don't have any reason not to dash right up into someone's face with an effortless 2 button, 1 direction wavedash with the exceptional ability to auto-target the opponent which I can then either follow up with a c.LK or jump->j.HK (which will crossover if they're on the ground because dash as well as cause Pillar to miss if a Psoul knows I'm going to attack straight away) when the round starts.

I don't play solo v solo frequently nor enthusiastically enough to care, but I can't say that my experiences suggest it wouldn't benefit from some changes.
 
A couple ways that issues that people have trouble with could be fixed as follows:

If you want actual VSav style downs, then perhaps on the finishing blow, the game could lock out input then wait until the killing move is finished recovering before playing "Take 2, ACTION!" then letting you bounce, but that actually would look rather awkward and just be removing movement from the current downs system actually while forcing soft knockdown so nevermind

or

If you want to be less boned by using characters with limited movement options between rounds but they DO have movement options that require button presses, allow them to use those button press moves but make sure they don't produce hitboxes if they could, so Parasoul could Mary Poppins after a down without having the ability to hit you between rounds(because that would be dumb), or Painwheel could actually do her thing and fly between round 1 and 2. Heck, even Cerebella could fly with her held j.HP. Or Filia could user her j.HK to stay put in the air. Or val could use j.MK or j.HK or.... actually I really want this to happen.
 
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Tomo009 said:
pros? I dunno really

cons? Show me a game where they don't just walk into each other and use their fastest normal / try to back up but fail miserably cornering themselves.
MvC2, because they do the smart thing that MvC3 didn't do and DISALLOW THROWS for the first few seconds.
[edit, at 5:37]
Lots of people open with block+assist, Sent can open with armored jump or backdash, Juggernaut can open with team super, etc. Because nobody can beat Magneto's crouching Short since it's one frame, a good option is crouch block, but then he can open with jump forward + Psylocke. Cable can open with F+RH against Magneto because it goes over crouch Short.
In SG, jump startup is faster than all normals, so opening with a jump would be a decent tactic also.
I intentionally back up at the start of the round in MvC2 because it screws with screen position and some things that are common round opener followups don't work with the camera offset, like square-jump+Psylocke.
Etc.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
If you want to be less boned by using characters with limited movement options between rounds but they DO have movement options that require button presses, allow them to use those button press moves but make sure they don't produce hitboxes if they could, so Parasoul could Mary Poppins after a down without having the ability to hit you between rounds(because that would be dumb), or Painwheel could actually do her thing and fly between round 1 and 2. Heck, even Cerebella could fly with her held j.HP. Or Filia could user her j.HK to stay put in the air. Or val could use j.MK or j.HK or.... actually I really want this to happen.
This sounds like something that could be good, or horribly broken, especially with a good painwheel being able to fly just into the right position for a cross up. But the whole turn off hitboxes is a neat idea.
 
Broseidon Rex said:
This sounds like something that could be good, or horribly broken, especially with a good painwheel being able to fly just into the right position for a cross up. But the whole turn off hitboxes is a neat idea.
Hitboxes are already off, witness having a LK George out.

And like...I agree with maybe Peacock teleporting but the rest eeeeeeeeeeeeeh no. Nothing that has the ABILITY to hit.
 
Shows my knowledge. What about all grounded non-hitting special moves that involve movement (Tumble run and feint, flesh step, E-braked BB stuff) can be done or why specifically peacock's teleport?
Also keep in mind I don't know what stuff is actually currently allowed (such as never seeing a walking george inbetween rounds), so assume ignorance on my part.
 
You can throw a George and then kill them, and it won't hit between rounds. All hits are disabled.

And yes, I meant things like teleport / run without followups, but E-Brake wouldn't make it because the initial part is an attack and you can't force the player to E-Brake.
 
Mike_Z said:
Lots of people open with block+assist, Sent can open with armored jump or backdash, Juggernaut can open with team super, etc. Because nobody can beat Magneto's crouching Short since it's one frame, a good option is crouch block, but then he can open with jump forward + Psylocke. Cable can open with F+RH against Magneto because it goes over crouch Short.
In SG, jump startup is faster than all normals, so opening with a jump would be a decent tactic also.
I intentionally back up at the start of the round in MvC2 because it screws with screen position and some things that are common round opener followups don't work with the camera offset, like square-jump+Psylocke.
Etc.


Suddenly the reason I open almost every round with jump forward + block and call assist makes sense.
 
Tbqh though the post round movement does seem tacked on... Witness painwheels INABILITY to unfly in any way... Being stuck flying isnt a good thing and always pisses me off.

Saying that, yeah, id like more options to be open. Something like a screen attack cancel that cancels all hitboxes when the round starts so that any projectiles that were on the screen get fizzed out. This way filia j.hk is open and most /all other attacks... But without the ability to hit.
 
lol

Your reward for beating your opponent is winning that round. That's all you're going to get and should get.

I've never had a problem with pre round movement, ah well~
 
Mike_Z said:
And like...I agree with maybe Peacock teleporting but the rest eeeeeeeeeeeeeh no. Nothing that has the ABILITY to hit.

The using normals for movement during between-round movement was a spitball idea anyway, but I don't see why Painwheel shouldn't have the ability to fly.
 
Yeah, fly would be allowed. Right now though nobody has the ability to anything, unsubscribing. :^)
 
I actually really like the starting positions for the rounds

*shrugs*
 
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It's heartwarming to see people actually caring about a solo-only mechanic.

As for the length of time of a down, it's fine for me. If I win I usually use that period of time to make sure my opponent stays with their back to the corner and I'm a slight distance away. Then again I'm Cerebella so I can probably do that better than Parasoul can.

On adding more down movement options, I don't think the person who loses the round should get those movement options. As the winner, if I put someone in the corner and kill them there I like being able to use the down to make sure they at least stay somewhat trapped. There's usually a full Titan Knuckle between at least (unless they just run into me like a mad man), so it never feels like too good of an advantage, but it a nice treat that I got. If Peacock and Painwheel and Cerebella get their movement options on loss, they can just get out of that for free. How about disabling things like air dash and double jump (so everyone would basically become Parasoul) during the down for the losing character, if we're talking about changing downs?
 
Already posted this in two other threads but this seems like the most appropriate place and seems to be where the attention is.
KhaosMuffins said:
What if after launching the head with s.HK, Fortune could send it flying like a volleyball with j.HK? It'd give her another way to move the head around and allow it to approach from different angles.
Just remove the hitbox on the head when she spikes it in this way, and I think this could be a fun, potentially non-overpowering utility tool that gives her another way to position the head.
 
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So, there's the matter of whiffing air grabs and still being able to act afterwards if your character has multiple air options (whiff air grab, double jump/super/throw out normal). What was the reasoning behind this? I can deal with getting hit out of an air-to-air attempt when a character like Filia whiffs hairball above me and cancels into super, but seeing the opponent act again after whiffing an air grab has always seemed odd.

Also, are there any vertical limits on jumping attacks for forcing opponents into standing block if they up-back on the ground? There have been count-less times where I try to air-grab/hit somebody directly above me at super-jump height, only to be forced into standing block if they are throwing attacks out.
 
Cancelable air grabs is a very very good thing. It allows safer tries at beating up back with something other than frame trap lows. Up/back is very non committal so a direct counter to it that is also slightly safer via non committal seems good to me.
 
Air grabs should be left alone indeed. It'd be kinda shitty if I was punished and blown up for simply messing up a grab reset because I was a second too early.
 
Dime_x said:
Cancelable air grabs is a very very good thing. It allows safer tries at beating up back with something other than frame trap lows. Up/back is very non committal so a direct counter to it that is also slightly safer via non committal seems good to me.

It's not being able to cancel air-grabs, which you can't do now. It's being unable to whiff punish bad air grab attempts (i.e. guessing air-grab during neutral instead of reacting with it to grab an opponent out of the air). Personally, I think that should cost two air actions as opposed to one based on the rewards you get for landing it . Also, you go from whiffing this move right into block/jump/attack/dash anyway.

It's not as problematic for me as being stuck on the ground when trying to air-to-air, though. Nothing is worse than watching somebody whiff jump attacks far above my head only to be stuck on the ground whiffing grab when I should be air-grabbing.
 
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BeatNinja said:
Air grabs should be left alone indeed. It'd be kinda shitty if I was punished and blown up for simply messing up a grab reset because I was a second too early.
That.. already happens.

"It'd be kinda shitty if I was punished and blown up for messing up" is a hilarious statement btw
 
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View619 said:
It's not being able to cancel, which you can't do. It's being unable to whiff punish bad air grab attempts (i.e. guessing air-grab during neutral instead of reacting with it to grab an opponent out of the air)

Almost nothing is whiff punishable on reaction
That's not how you go about whiff punishing people
Whiff punishing is predictive based on the situation and your spacing
If they guess you're going to jump forward and block and nj airgrab to preempt it -- and then you nj aerial or use an aerial with a large forward hitbox early in your jump you've whiff punished their airgrab
 
Actually I have been having trouble in situations where my opponent goes for a preemptive air grab but I don't upback, it's like "cool I didn't get grabbed" but I'm not actually sure how to capitalize on that situation. I've just been letting them land and going for a mixup, but I feel like I should be able to do better. If I'm Big Band I can just Beat Extend if they're in the air pushing buttons but I'm not sure what to do with my other characters. Maybe I can raw launcher, I dunno.
 
Merlock said:
Almost nothing is whiff punishable on reaction
That's not how you go about whiff punishing people
Whiff punishing is predictive based on the situation and your spacing
If they guess you're going to jump forward and block and nj air grab to preempt it -- and then you nj aerial or use an aerial with a large forward hit box early in your jump you've whiff punished their air grab
  • Opponent whiffs preemptive jump-forward air grab.
  • I react and go for the punish by attempting to hit before they land.
  • They manage to block/do w.e. because they recovered in the air.
My issue is the opponent recovering before hitting the ground. The only comparison I can think of in other games is you whiff a heavy attack if you preemptively air grab but the opponent isn't in range. It's not a major issue, I'm just curious as to why that was the design choice.
 
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View619 said:
  • Opponent whiffs preemptive jump-forward air grab.
  • I react and go for the punish by attempting to hit before they land.
  • They manage to block/do w.e. because they recovered in the air.
My issue is the opponent recovering before hitting the ground. The only comparison I can think of in other games is you whiff a heavy attack if you preemptively air grab but the opponent isn't in range. It's not a major issue, I'm just curious as to why that was the design choice.

Because throws are short range, fast startup, techable and any conversion is heavily scaled if they land, while whiff punishing a throw gives you unscaled damage
 
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Merlock said:
Because throws are short range, fast startup, techable and any conversion is heavily scaled if they land, while whiff punishing a throw gives you unscaled damage

Yeah, that's fine. It's just something I wanted to throw out there.
 
My problem with this is that is just way to streetfighterish of a mentality. In sg, you "punish on reaction" with "a situation" in most instances barring blocked supers and such. You dont get a real punish because you didnt predict that action. That seems fair. If you want to punish an airgrab wiff... Predict it and beat it. Being able to get a punish after the fact on a move that only hits air, is techable, gets scaled by 50% and for many characters takes meter to convert.... Seems overblown in my mind.

Strong throws are a good staple of sg, id hate for that to be taken away, in any way.

I mean, it also goes with along with sg's normal moves.... All of which are cancelable on wiff. Airthrows arent cancelable.... But their recovery is.


If i had to wager a guess id say its to further balance out up/back which is still like the premier defensive movement in the game even with inherent justifiable balance tweaks such as more startup on jump back, and really good airthrows that arent option selectable to break or throw.


Simply put, i dont go around wiffing throws because i hate the bad position that wiffing one against my opponents puts me in. If you dont get something guaranteed, you certainly get a high end amount of pressure and mixups on a wiffed one... And in sg thats near tantamount to a hit since sg offense is crazy good.

I dont see it as any more a problem than wiffing any other move and canceling its recovery in order to not be hit.
 
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So, some of the au peeps are up on that Eliza thing. Thats all well and good, but it means that i have to play against what amounts to a broken character. I dont know how good Eliza is but right now she seems unfair:

Her high/low is stupid good.
Her low/throw is stupid good.
Her anti pushblock is ridiculous.
Her air priority is insane.
Her airthrow has crazy range.
Her crossup game is crazy.
Her anti zone game is ridiculous.
She has great resets.

The only flaw i can find is shes weak to air resets. Thats it. Her speed which seems slow, isnt when she can just boat her way in and airdash cancel her moves. Also, she has like the best anti confirm game in the game, just j.hp when people try to go for the confirm. She wins easily and if she gets blocked no one cares cause she just dash cancels into stuff.

Now what i know about fighting games is that these are the ways to defend against a character:


Out prioritise it.
Attack it so that it cant attack you.
Outrange it (keepaway).
Wiff punish it.
Pushblock it.


I cant really do ANY of this to eliza. Her priority says fuck you. I cant attack her cause of her bs priority. Cant outrange her well cause of the air dash cancel.
Cant play keepaway cause of boat xx fierce dp.

It literally seems like im just waiting for her to fuck up so i can get an assist confirm from somewhere and then go to town. But other than that... She seems un fuckwithable when shes got a dp assist going... That shit feels like good luck beating this shit.

So my question is.. Is she broken and does she need nerfs? Cause at this point im almsot ready to not play Eliza players till she gets balanced.

And how to balance her? Even with hurtboxes that are realistic she still seems like she will be stupid good. Her high/low/throw/crossup game is dumb as is her anti pushblock game. I dont know how she will be balanced but she seems to really need it at this point.
 
I think once her attacks have their actual hitboxes it will be much easier to tell how great she is ACTUALLY going to be.

Right now she is pretty nuts, yeah, because her normals blow through everything but that is because they aren't finished.

Her DP is kinda hard to punish sometimes but at least you can throw it if you predict it.

Once her hitboxes are done, give her some time, she doesn't have any super amazing options on block so her pressure is limited to air strings and her mixup requires a bit of setup. I think she is certainly really good, though.
 
Yeah, her j.HP and j.MP hitboxes are clearly unfinished. Lets not make balance judgements just yet.
 
Does anyone have a contra opinion for "Preblock should have a vertical limit"?

Several characters in this game lack a strong grounded AA game, and make up for that with decent/good air to air normals, which is fine.

However, air to airing in SG is mostly a preemptive/predictive thing, where you go "I think he will press a button, so let me jump forward j.LK".
A thing I'd really really like to do is use jumpback-airnormal as a reactive AA tool against predictable jumpins / coming down from the sky with an active something.
.. Which plain doesn't work, due to Preblock apparently not having a vertical limit on when it's going to trigger.


Yeah, I'm aware that I can dash/backdash into ground button after avoiding the jumpin, or that I can jump straight up, or whatever, but I'd rather the jumpback was also an option - and being stuck on the ground in this scenario just *feels weird*.
The same thing happens with moves THAT DO NOT EVEN HIT, like a Parasoul SJing and pressing j.LP in the air is going to keep you on the ground for the j.LP frames - even though it's nowhere near you. It's as if Bella pressing s.LP at halfscreen distance stopped you from walking backwards; it plain doesn't seem like a thing that should happen.

Also, i like preblock applying the way it currently does. I dont think that nerfing the range on it would be a good thing... Because i dont like buffs to up/back... OF ANY SORT. Up/back to me is almost perfect as it is now.
I don't think "Jumpback j.MK at midrange as an air to air option" has too much to do with "Upback". That's a very common footsie tool in eg SF, and you wouldn't really say SF play has much to do with Upbacking?

P.S. Here's another viddy on what No-Vertical-Limit-On-Preblock does:

Yes, I'm not leaving the ground until Parasoul lands (as she's attacking the entire time, and then coming down with a 2MK).

E: Merged this with another post
 
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Are you sure there is no limit or is it also a 300 px thing like it is horizontally?

I agree there should be a limit, but how would it affect moves like HP Updo and especially Fenrir and such? Because if you couldn't go into preblock against Fenrir wouldn't it effectively become unblockable at height?

Not that I'm against air unblockables, in fact I quite like them, but in this game, yeah that would be quite borked and I'm certain would lead to many an unescapable situation.
 
Tomo009 said:
Are you sure there is no limit or is it also a 300 px thing like it is horizontally?
Not sure on it actually being no Limit, but I'm not getting much higher than SJ DJ, and that'd be 3/4+ screen distance horizontally (where you definitely do not trigger preblock)

I agree there should be a limit, but how would it affect moves like HP Updo and especially Fenrir and such? Because if you couldn't go into preblock against Fenrir wouldn't it effectively become unblockable at height?
I have no idea what you are talking about?
 
IsaVulpes said:
Not sure on it actually being no Limit, but I'm not getting much higher than SJ DJ, and that'd be 3/4+ screen distance horizontally (where you definitely do not trigger preblock)


I have no idea what you are talking about?

If you could not trigger preblock, I would assume things like Fenrir that cause hitstop would hit you out of the air from height, similar to how long range pokes catch you out of prejump.

Unless you can somehow get into a blocking state during hitstop if the game already knows you are holding back?

I would assume other vertical moves like Updo would probably still work because you would be bale to change state, just unsure about hitstop supers and what they would do.
 
Things hit you out of prejump because you can't block during prejump.
Things up close don't hit you out of prejump, because prejump gets cancelled into preblock (during which you can block).
There's nothing comparable in the air. If there was no preblock, you'd still.. just block.

I'm also not voting for a complete removal of air preblock, but just for giving it some max distance vertically, so SJ+ height things don't trigger it anymore, but eg an IAD j.HP still would (or just a falling normal when it's low enough).
 
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