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SG Game Design Discussion

Not a fan of mashing for more damage at all. The idea that you can get more damage from a completely arbitrary action doesn't appeal to me. Maybe if there is a cost associated with the extra damage, that would be okay, otherwise it's kinda dumb.

I think having to do something to get out of stagger faster is okay, but mashing is a pretty inelegant way to go about it. Maybe a better way would be something similar to teching.
 
Chrono_Tata said:
Not a fan of mashing for more damage at all. The idea that you can get more damage from a completely arbitrary action doesn't appeal to me.

Mashing isn't arbitrary, it's just as execution based as anything else. Getting the max damage out of a mashable throw in some old Capcom games is something that takes a lot of practice and skill to do.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Mashing isn't arbitrary, it's just as execution based as anything else. Getting the max damage out of a mashable throw in some old Capcom games is something that takes a lot of practice and skill to do.
It's arbitrary execution though. For example, 360 super throw requires a 360 input in order to make it not executable in a single frame. On the other hand, a MvC style super mashing is just completely arbitrary in the sense that the execution barrier isn't there to serve any real purpose (does being able to mash a button faster show that you are a better fighting game player?). There isn't really any good reason not to just give the move the maximum damage without needing to mash. I guess the point is arguable, since button mashing is a skill, but I really don't think it's a skill that needs to be evaluated when playing a fighting game.
 
Chrono_Tata said:
It's arbitrary execution though. For example, 360 super throw requires a 360 input in order to make it not executable in a single frame. On the other hand, a MvC style super mashing is just completely arbitrary in the sense that the execution barrier isn't there to serve any real purpose (does being able to mash a button faster show that you are a better fighting game player?). There isn't really any good reason not to just give the move the maximum damage without needing to mash. I guess the point is arguable, since button mashing is a skill, but I really don't think it's a skill that needs to be evaluated when playing a fighting game.

What I mean is that it's no different than any other combo related execution. You can improve your combo damage through execution, and mashing is just another execution skill that lets you improve combo damage.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
What I mean is that it's no different than any other combo related execution. You can improve your combo damage through execution, and mashing is just another execution skill that lets you improve combo damage.
While that is true, it is different from normal execution of a combo. If you mess up a move input in a combo, you drop the combo and the opponent gets a chance to escape, possibly leaving you in a vulnerable position. If you mess up your mashing in a mashable move (in a combo or otherwise) you get less damage, but otherwise there is no element of legitimate choice.

What I mean is, when you do a combo, you could choose to do an easier combo with easier execution and sacrifices damage in order to be less likely to drop it, or you can choose to do a harder combo that does more damage that you are likely to mess up. Both are legitimate choices. On the other hand, if you do a mashable move, you don't have a real choice except to mash, since there is no benefit to not mashing as opposed to. I don't think it's a very smart game design.

Edit: edited a couple of sentences that didn't make sense. I'm way too tired. :p
 
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Tying in to mashing, do you believe the undizzy mechanic is good (move in lots of directions to reduce amount of time in dizzy)?
I think it's good because unlike mashing supers, you are banking on getting out of dizzy earlier but risk getting hit again if you forgot to block after getting out of dizzy, on account of being too occupied in furiously attempting to undizzy.
 
Broseidon Rex said:
Tying in to mashing, do you believe the undizzy mechanic is good (move in lots of directions to reduce amount of time in dizzy)?
I think it's good because unlike mashing supers, you are banking on getting out of dizzy earlier but risk getting hit again if you forgot to block after getting out of dizzy, on account of being too occupied in furiously attempting to undizzy.
Just mash super. You come straight of stagger with a super, no need to try and block. Plus people are always going to try and combo after a successful stagger, and even if they didnt you got that safe on block super ready right?


Oh wait, you solo i think... Nvm, but still... When in doubt.... Mash it out.
 
Broseidon Rex said:
Tying in to mashing, do you believe the undizzy mechanic is good (move in lots of directions to reduce amount of time in dizzy)?
I think it's good because unlike mashing supers, you are banking on getting out of dizzy earlier but risk getting hit again if you forgot to block after getting out of dizzy, on account of being too occupied in furiously attempting to undizzy.
Hahahaha please call this stagger shakeout or stun recovery or something. Undizzy kind of has a different meaning (for us, at least).

Anyways, I hate it. If there's an inherent mindgame involved (eg if you mash you become susceptible to getting grabbed which wouldn't happen if you hadn't mashed) it's alright but still stupid (mashing will /always/ be stupid), but this isn't even the case usually.
You can eg practice a specific stick motion that will have you get out of Stagger blocking (I think people did this against Jin?), and that'll be it.
In SG this becomes even stupider because hardmashing against Bella staggers just lowers the time you can be thrown - so eg after getting hit by a Pummel Horse, wild mashing will 100% get you out of 360s/DDrops with absolutely no downside ever.

I have no idea what this in the game for (other than "older games had it") and Mike refuses to answer me :(
 
Chrono_Tata said:
While that is true, it is different from normal execution of a combo. If you mess up a move input in a combo, you drop the combo and the opponent gets a chance to escape, possibly leaving you in a vulnerable position. If you mess up your mashing in a mashable move (in a combo or otherwise) you get less damage, but otherwise there is no element of legitimate choice.

What I mean is, when you do a combo, you could choose to do an easier combo with easier execution and sacrifices damage in order to be less likely to drop it, or you can choose to do a harder combo that does more damage that you are likely to mess up. Both are legitimate choices. On the other hand, if you do a mashable move, you don't have a real choice except to mash, since there is no benefit to not mashing as opposed to. I don't think it's a very smart game design.

Edit: edited a couple of sentences that didn't make sense. I'm way too tired. :p

SF4 Chun: needs 5 inputs to do lightning legs. There are piano and slide methods to do it clean for some combos, but when it comes to the EX version, it turns into finger gymnastics if you try to do it that way (especially when trying to combo it from a link). It's better to commit to the mash in that case imo. And if you mess it up you get regular legs, which doesn't move her forward and doesn't combo from most links and leaves you vulnerable in front of the opponent. You mash wrong you get punished.

-Weapon Clash in Samurai Showdown: power struggle between both opponents. The victor gets to keep his weapon and effective range. It's a simple, interesting and believable element to add to the weapons fighting dynamic.

-Mashable throws: Something I miss dearly because bashing the opponent in the head several times to humiliate him and get the most damage out of it is so satisfying. Not only that, but it's a struggle on the opponent's end too. While you're trying to get the most hits, he's trying to escape that as soon as possible and it could be the difference between life and death sometimes. The way they changed what used to be mashable grabs into scripted throws in SF4 (like Sagat's knee bash) is fucking boring.

-Getting out of stagger/stun. A chance to survive in most cases unless you just want to resign yourself to a beating/defeat. You what's embarrassing though? When instead of outright going for a full stun combo, the attacker just ticks you with a jab (which won't kill you) and then grabs you to kill and you died because you weren't paying attention or even trying to survive.

-Mashable supers: Typically in team based games and only favorable for the attacker who confirmed into it, but when it comes to whether mashing a certain amount of times will kill your opponent or leave them with a sliver of health and a chance to escape (AND gain back some of that red health. Plus he might be tagging out a great assist for the team), you better believe the onus is on the attacker to finish the job or risk the opponent having an easier time mounting a potential comeback.

The last three cases are using mashing to PROVE you either want to stay in the game or want to win. They become more of a factor when health is at a certain amount.

It's just another element of games in general (and sometimes just there to provide a non-timing intensive way to earn some extra benefit for those who aren't that great at timing or other execution aspects of the game). Just like deadly rave type supers are to benefit those who can pull them off and add another flavor to how you do moves.
I'd rather have that than more cinematics that just do the job for you.
 
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No, it's not better to "commit to the mash" in case of SF4 Chun. Nobody does that. It's not finger gymnastics either.
Because you get punished, you know? How can you even say this rofl. "It's better to wildly mash and pray that it works than to practice it up" GG.

Every other of your examples is exactly what Tata is saying: You just mash, and mash hard, and there is no reason to ever not mash.
There's no decision making, there's not even executional difficulty, it's just a strain on the hands.

I actually agree with you on the general idea of mashing out (getting the player to do stuff during cinematic shit rather than gamepace being lost because both players take their hand off the stick during a super), but
a) It's not really working (You aren't "on edge" as you are when trying to sniff out a reset or similar, you can just close your eyes and press buttons - not exactly keeping pace up even if you keep your fingers doing something), and
b) that's better solved by just not making 40 second long cinematics.
 
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Darklightjg1 said:
SF4 Chun: needs 5 inputs to do lightning legs. There are piano and slide methods to do it clean for some combos, but when it comes to the EX version, it turns into finger gymnastics if you try to do it that way (especially when trying to combo it from a link). It's better to commit to the mash in that case imo. And if you mess it up you get regular legs, which doesn't move her forward and doesn't combo from most links and leaves you vulnerable in front of the opponent. You mash wrong you get punished.

-Weapon Clash in Samurai Showdown: power struggle between both opponents. The victor gets to keep his weapon and effective range. It's a simple, interesting and believable element to add to the weapons fighting dynamic.

-Mashable throws: Something I miss dearly because bashing the opponent in the head several times to humiliate him and get the most damage out of it is so satisfying. Not only that, but it's a struggle on the opponent's end too. While you're trying to get the most hits, he's trying to escape that as soon as possible and it could be the difference between life and death sometimes. The way they changed what used to be mashable grabs into scripted throws in SF4 (like Sagat's knee bash) is fucking boring.

-Getting out of stagger/stun. A chance to survive in most cases unless you just want to resign yourself to a beating/defeat. You what's embarrassing though? When instead of outright going for a full stun combo, the attacker just ticks you with a jab (which won't kill you) and then grabs you to kill and you died because you weren't paying attention or even trying to survive.

-Mashable supers: Typically in team based games and only favorable for the attacker who confirmed into it, but when it comes to whether mashing a certain amount of times will kill your opponent or leave them with a sliver of health and a chance to escape (AND gain back some of that red health. Plus he might be tagging out a great assist for the team), you better believe the onus is on the attacker to finish the job or risk the opponent having an easier time mounting a potential comeback.

The last three cases are using mashing to PROVE you either want to stay in the game or want to win. They become more of a factor when health is at a certain amount.

It's just another element of games in general (and sometimes just there to provide a non-timing intensive way to earn some extra benefit for those who aren't that great at timing or other execution aspects of the game). Just like deadly rave type supers are to benefit those who can pull them off and add another flavor to how you do moves.
I'd rather have that than more cinematics that just do the job for you.
Yeah, I don't have a problem with a mashing input to do a particular move like Chun's lightning legs. Same thing with "mashable" moves like Cerebella's j.LP. It's the stuff that take place during a window of time that your opponent can't break out of even if you mess up or have to try to outmash you that I don't like.

For the "competitive" style button mashing like Samurai Shodown, while I suppose it is a legit system of skill-comparison, I really don't think "A can mash a button harder than B" is a very good metric of who is the better player in fighting games. IMO I prefer fighting games to have a more elegant system of fighting and I'd rather button mashing races be kept to games like Track & Field and Mario Party. The same logic applies to mashable supers.

I also see your point about mashing a certain move being satisfying, especially when there is a clear feedback when you mash, but I think it is possible to design things that are satisfying to the player without it affecting the competitive aspect of the game, for example, taunts and fatalities. I just don't like that you HAVE to mash in order to do the full amount of damage for a certain move. After a while, it just stops being satisfying and becomes a chore.

Also for reference I'm not a fan of overly complicated super inputs either. :p
 
IsaVulpes said:
No, it's not better to "commit to the mash" in case of SF4 Chun. Nobody does that. It's not finger gymnastics either.
Because you get punished, you know? How can you even say this rofl. "It's better to wildly mash and pray that it works than to practice it up" GG.

Every other of your examples is exactly what Tata is saying: You just mash, and mash hard, and there is no reason to ever not mash.
There's no decision making, there's not even executional difficulty, it's just a strain on the hands.

I actually agree with you on the general idea of mashing out (getting the player to do stuff during cinematic shit rather than gamepace being lost because both players take their hand off the stick during a super), but
a) It's not really working (You aren't "on edge" as you are when trying to sniff out a reset or similar, you can just close your eyes and press buttons - not exactly keeping pace up even if you keep your fingers doing something), and
b) that's better solved by just not making 40 second long cinematics.

That's a blatant lie and I've been playing the game way too long and versus too many mirror matches to know that IS the case for EX Legs. You can see it and you can fucking hear it. Even in match/replay videos where the inputs are displayed you'll see it way more often than some piano input converted into EX legs... ESPECIALLY when out of a cr. mk link because there's no simple piano route from there. Only in rare cases of people who have jazz pianist-like technique will try to do it that way. And it's not really doing it wildly and praying. It has a high success rate for a lot of Chun players, but if you misfire you WILL get punished (EX legs is also safe on block though, so missing a cr. mk link but still cancelling to EX legs won't leave you in danger like regular legs will).

-A strain on the hands from mashing is a degree of difficulty to have in mind (no matter how light... it does build up if you have to do it a lot in a match). With no struggle there's no risk of coming up short in terms of damage or escape, but there is struggle in those cases. It's not about there being no disadvantage to not mash, it's about reaching the max potential out of the situation or reaching the goal of escape quicker. If you want to get to the goal, you reach for it and you reach hard.

Now aside from comboing into something mashable. The other situations (stuff you can shake out of/power struggle) require a bit of reaction as well because in most cases you won't know it's going to happen until it happens. If two players have the same mashing speed and stamina, then the one who reacts quicker to the situation still wins.

-But I don't really know why be against a particular input method or element if it's just a small aspect in the game and not really forced on every character.
People who hate it because they don't feel like doing it... that understandable. But if it's rewarding people who do, do you have a gripe against that? What about people who'd rather zone than rushdown or vice versa? Or finish a combo over resetting? If neither is too strong is there a gripe against that too? What about who people want to put in that time to do standing 720s (or 1080 in the case of Kira from AH)?
I hear so many people talk down on particular elements of a game or how people play that I wonder if they want to play against other people at all... or just mirror match themselves.

@Chrono_Tata you mention its value as showing who's a better player, but it's only one element of several. FGs thrive off different people being better at different elements of a game than others. Unless the game is strictly "mash from start to finish" it's not gonna be a major factor in who's better overall, it's just a small part that rewards you a bit more in that scenario during the match if you're good at it. Just like spacing and reaction tends to reward me more than most players and execution/mixups tend to reward some other players more who are better at it than me. Sometimes it becomes a deciding factor of who wins, but you have to get to that point first with the other stuff that you're good at.
 
1:35 Clearly mashing out random buttons and praying for Ex Legs to come out
1:44 More mashing random buttons for the Ex Legs
2:30 Did I say random mashes
Yeah garbage players mash stuff out, but what does that matter for anything?

If you really feel "rewarded" for inputting PKK1K5P149K51P591K591P25K514PK254P22K459P4K51K42P1K5P3K14P5K4P6941K2P1K9561 and thus killing the opponent?

Execution in Fighters are precise inputs at the correct time.
- Doing a 1f link = Precise Input
- Walking three pixels after connecting a move to get in range for the next = Precise Input
- Inputting 623MP-MPMK66-236236PPP rather than 623MP-MPMK66-23623PPP = Precise Input
These are more-or-less challenging executional quirks which feel rewarding when you do them.

Now instead we look at mashing. To get out of Stagger/Stun/GetBonusDamage/etc, depending on game, you either have to do
- 6464646464646464646 / 464646466464646464646464 / 6664464644646446446 / tbc
- 8719781213591379127 / 134271639413787167 / 1223714617987412 / tbc
- 1K591P25K514PK254P22K459P / P3K14P5K4P6941K2P / 1K5P149K51P591K591P25K514P / tbc
The precision! The important timing!
Every 3 year old kid can mash as good or bad as I can do it. You just roll your face on the buttons while doing some spastic movement with your hand.
Even if you suck at it, you just GAIN LESS. There is no decision making process involved, no "Should I mash or should I not". Just "Always do it as good as you can".

If you wanted to stay true to challenging executional stuff everywhere, and disliked that cinematics have you let go of the stick, you could validly request something like this:
- Not pressing any button:
Stagger duration 3s
- Inputting 236LK-412MK-8282PPP-HKLPMKMPHP:
If you did this in <3 Seconds: Stagger duration still 3s, but if you only get hit after you completed it, the opponent's combo will only deal 10% damage
- Inputting anything else, or needing more than 3 seconds to do the above:
Stagger duration 5s, if the opponent hits you during the first 3 his next combo deals +50% damage; if during the last 2, even +100%

This would stay true to the actual FG sense of "Wild mashing is done by noone but 3 year old kids who don't get anything about the game",
Give an actual decision process ("Do I try to go for this technique or not, if I do it'll hurt me bad"),
Reward you for getting better at it (the faster you complete = the less likely the opponent gets a good combo),
And add an additional layer of mindgame
- If the opponent believes you're going for it and can do it = He will continue his combo as soon as possible;
- If he believes you're going for it but can't do it = He will wait for you to fail, then continue combo.. he can even wait longer than standard Stagger duration to get more bonus damage
- But if he does that, he runs into the danger that you just didn't press anything and can block, as hitting during the 4th second will only connect if you failed your buttons

.. Really rough concept I dreamed up in a minute, should get my point across well enough.Or one could include QTEs, or whatever.
ANYTHING WHERE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING; AND ONLY IF FAILING IT GIVES PUNISHMENT.

I really don't get how you can feel rewarded for MASHING, of all things.
 
Darklightjg1 said:
@Chrono_Tata you mention its value as showing who's a better player, but it's only one element of several. FGs thrive off different people being better at different elements of a game than others. Unless the game is strictly "mash from start to finish" it's not gonna be a major factor in who's better overall, it's just a small part that rewards you a bit more in that scenario during the match if you're good at it. Just like spacing and reaction tends to reward me more than most players and execution/mixups tend to reward some other players more who are better at it than me. Sometimes it becomes a deciding factor of who wins, but you have to get to that point first with the other stuff that you're good at.
Yes, it is a pretty small factor in the game, but it is, to me, an unnecessary factor at best and an annoying factor at worst. Fighting games and any multiplayer games are designed to be played again and again, so even a small factor will build up to be a big factor in the long run. I mean, it's not something that would make or break a game for me necessarily (Skullgirls has a shake to get out of stagger mechanic and I still love the game) but it's something I would rather not have existed in the first place. While spacing, reaction, combo execution and mixup skills are all skills that should matter in a fighting game (at least one that I want to play), mashing speed is something I don't think should matter, regardless of how significant it is in the big picture.
 
@IsaVulpes I can post a video too:



What's the point of showing me that other than pointing out Y24 being a rare case inputting that way (he mashed during dash EX legs btw). Because he's good? Other Chun's who prefer to do it the other way are still good. Both can still input wrong and get punished for what is essentially a mashable move. And that's the only reason I brought it up, to show something mashable like that is punishable if you misfire. The player's level doesn't have much to do with it being a situation that happens enough to point out.

And for whatever you just posted for stagger, why is that any more necessary than shaking/mashing out? You gotta put in something like the konami code to get out of stuff now (not even get out... to reduce damage) or suffer a 50-100% boost in damage? What's the point in overcomplicating a 2-3 second occurrence that doesn't even happen that often beyond "act quickly"?
So if I happen to hit or counter hit someone with Ky Kiske's F+HS, they have to react and input... that... or I can just pretty much keep doing it until they're dead or lose a HUGE chunk of health? Seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

I don't think the risk/reward needs to be that skewed or that the situation needs to be that complex.

I really don't get how you can feel rewarded for MASHING, of all things.

I dunno. You seem to look down on it... a lot... with capital letters and everything.
And it's really not that big a deal to me. Sometimes when I catch somebody with Guy or Maki's grab I just wanna... bash them in the head a few more times and show them how I really feel about them. If they weren't really paying attention the 1st time, they'll definitely start paying attention the 2nd or 3rd time. Watching them get frustrated and struggle to get out while I just get damage and visual entertainment while barely trying is pretty rewarding. Even moreso if someone's getting hype in back over something as simple as that.

@Chrono_Tata that's just difference of opinion between us. I agree it's not really necessary, but since I'm not bombarded with it constantly it doesn't really annoy me... it entertains me (the throw situation being the one that amuses me the most).
 
As a fellow follower of the thigh... Well at least a member in years past, i never liked mashing ex legs and i at least always did a piano... But, it would look like mashing on the input screen. My "mash" has always been cr.lk x2 piano hk,mk,lk x2


Reversal ex legs for me was the same except i did the piano x3

And yeah it wasnt 100% consistent but like 85% consistent.

Also, having played mashy ultimate... That shit just gets on my nerves for real. "Fun" the first 3-5 times doing a super and a major chore every subsequent time.


But this is just my opinion, im not trying to deny people of their mashy fun in other fighters... I just want it represented as little as possible in sg.
 
Good discussion on mashing. My main problem with it is that it wears out sticks and buttons faster while not really adding to the decision tree. Another problem I have, which is admittedly much more minor, is that watching a FG player mash really reinforces the stereotype of FG players being overgrown man-children facerolling the buttons. Maybe you can tell the difference between a 10-year veteran of MVC2 trying to get max damage on AHVB and a random dudebro wailing on the stick in while using Christie in Tekken, but most of the non-FGC people I know sure can't.
 
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I don't like mashing because it's easier on anything that isn't a pad/controller, I think if I used a stick (or keyboard) I wouldn't mind it, but at the same time I don't really see the need for it.

Also I was wondering what people thought of that initial meter in Skullgirls rounds. Personally I'd like to try matches without it (whether this has been tested or not is unknown to me) as it seems like a bit of a crazy thing to give out for free at the very start of the match, since it can be used to extend combos, make moves safe and serve as a crazy good reversal option, not to mention that people (both attackers and victims) will be getting meter from the very first combo that's used in the match. It all seems a bit overkill to me.
 
Starting off 1 meter is fine as a standard. You gain meter fast anyway just by whiffing normals if your under 1 bar . Starting off with zero meter could really hurt current/future characters that are more meter dependent to be effective then others.

So how do people feel about the prospect of just moving around (of course not attacking) before the match starts since that appears to be on the Mike Z To-Do-List. This can be a good and bad thing for certain characters.
 
Number 13 said:
Starting off 1 meter is fine as a standard. You gain meter fast anyway just by whiffing normals if your under 1 bar . Starting off with zero meter could really hurt current/future characters that are more meter dependent to be effective then others.

So how do people feel about the prospect of just moving around before the match starts since that appears to be on the Mike Z To-Do-List. This can be a good and bad thing for certain characters.

It would give some characters some more initial dynamism. I know as a PW, against many characters, I have but one option: chickenblock. So in that sense, it would be good. I do wonder how it will play out though. I imagine there are not many Peacocks that are excited about the idea of a PW/Bella starting the round in their face.

Side note: I think meter gain balance should be revisited.
 
Number 13 said:
So how do people feel about the prospect of just moving around before the match starts since that appears to be on the Mike Z To-Do-List. This can be a good and bad thing for certain characters.

Ugh, really? I hate the idiotic "who can hit the reversal timing for a round start/who has better walkspeed" crap prefight movement generates. I hoped SG not having it was a design choice and not a tech thing.
 
Moving at round start is a bad idea. Peacock and characters with weaker reversals/slower normals get screwed over immediately.
 
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The movement before round start isn't something final based on how speculative he worded on the doc. Best guess is Mike will experiment with the idea on the beta before it ever lands on the real version.

How many frames roughly is it from pre-match (Post Intro Animation) to match start ("Showtime!")? Is it enough time for a character to establish the mobility advantage within that timeframe?
 
Moving around, is worth a beta experiment. It does add strategy, though yeah it might make it tough for some characters.
 
Preround movement is garbage.

It's either:
- Zoners start the round in the corner
Or:
- Both players walk into each other's faces in the middle of the screen and the one with the faster buttons wins
Or both.

I have never seen this used in a good way.
 
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I wouldn't like it, as I feel like it would give an early advantage to rushdown-heavy characters against characters that lack a reversal. Particularly if it starts Filia or Ms. Fortune against Peacock, Painwheel, and to some extend Squigly. Though if it allowed use of Painwheel's flight, Peacock's teleport, and allowed Squigly to charge during the start of round, then maybe it could work?
 
Yes, let's give more of an advantage to pixies than they already have in this game by letting them close distance they could already close easily before the round even starts. Good shit.
 
I don't like pre-round movement. I think it encourages mashing before the round even starts.
 
ukyo_rulz said:
I don't like pre-round movement. I think it encourages mashing before the round even starts.

Aren't there some strategic considerations? For example, as a PW, I am sure as shit not going anywhere and mashing as my priority is shit.
 
Spencer said:
Aren't there some strategic considerations? For example, as a PW, I am sure as shit not going anywhere and mashing as my priority is shit.

Nope, all it does is give the character stronger up-close an advantage (in your face or with more space to start with) instead of starting both characters at neutral.
 
I actually asked Mike on the IRC a few days ago to include pre-round movement in the game, but the more I think about it the more it seems like a bad idea. It gives certain characters too much advantage over others.
 
One annoyance i have with long combos (I'm definately not as against them as other people), is when you catch a character on incoming and burn all your meter to get the 100%. From the beginning of the combo, the match is essentially over but it just ends up being a bit anticlimactic for both players.

Here an idea that I haven't really thought out that much;

-track whether the character being combo'd starts at 100%, if they reach 1 health they're allowed to burst

The idea being that you would always need to either reset a character, or risk a guile theme comeback after you burnt all your bars.
 
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Hey guys. I made a post in the IPS thread yesterday and... well, it kinda got lost in a sea of arguments about other stuff I think. And at any rate I think it was more pertinent to general game design anyway, so I'm reposting here. Basically somebody asked how people felt about combo length and the "neutral game." I mostly commented on the neutral game part:

On neutral: I have a thought on this, regarding how momentum-based and reset-heavy this game is. And that has to do with how hitstun recovery works in the air. In many other fighting games, once your hitstun (or "untech" or whatever) runs out while in midair, you get some kind of chance to control how you recover and tech. I don't know about MvC2, but in MvC3, you can hold a direction to tech in that direction, giving you some control over the situation. Also, you get a little invuln. Games like GG and BB take it a step further by letting you decide when the tech actually happens. Stuff like that makes it way harder for the opponent to reset you, since its more complicated than "just do something right after the hitstun ends, and you don't have to worry about them suddenly not being there."

I feel like this difference is what makes the game so reset-heavy (or part of the reason, anyway), and keeps the game from going back to neutral more often. And maybe that's just how Mike wants it, seeing as how that's probably a pretty deliberate design decision. But if we want the game to go back to neutral more, well... that core design feature may have to be addressed.

Thoughts?
 
Well, personally, when I complain about there not being enough neutral I don't actually want the same amount as in other fighters. I really just want it to be an actual part of the game as, with 2 combos and 1 reset per round (or 3 combos and 2 50-50 mixups on character entry) the neutral game lasts about 3 seconds (exaggeration of course, but if someone wants to get an actual average based on most matches then be my guest) and mind games are cut down to a minimum (that initial 3 seconds and the few resets or entry mixups are the only real times they come up), being left to that initial 3 seconds and whatever. If it were 2 or more resets per round (meaning at least 4 per solo v solo match, or 2 per character in 3v3) then there would be more opportunity to get the game away from the single player experience (which I am actually fine with in moderation, just not 18+ second combos) and towards something with 2 players actively competing against each other, be it defensively (i.e. trying to evade a reset or blocking a mixup) or be it as part of the neutral.

So, basically, I prefer the game being momentum heavy with ass-tons of resets to being pure neutral or pure combos, I believe the lack of midair teching at the end of midair hitstun is intentional to keep it this way and I think this is what Skullgirls wanted to be from the start. Even if that wasn't the initial goal the addition of Undizzy from SDE to MDE seems a lot like this is what it's striving for now. I'd really like Mike to say in the IPS thread was his hope for SG is, that way there would be a lot less heat in the community over these changes and those who agree with whatever he wants can offer suggestions to contribute to reaching that goal.
 
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Now that hitstop's a thing shouldn't Ultimate Showstopper be made techable before the flash?
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Now that hitstop's a thing shouldn't Ultimate Showstopper be made techable before the flash?

Absolutely not Bella does not need more nerfs.

Hitstop doesn't even make any difference to Showstopper since it was 5+0 startup to begin with and was never jumpable after the flash.
 
It's fine as is. Grab supers are usually designed to be jumpable before the flash but not after.
 
Ok, so after much thought and frustration I think I know where Fortune can get nerfs without completely changing her play style:
  • Make removing the head a risky process; being able to take it off with a fully invulnerable move that causes stagger and gives you the advantage over frames on block as well as now having the head off ready to make every move safe is pretty ridiculous
  • Don't let the head cancel moves into Omnomnom
  • If the head is hit have it suffer from lockdown (5s.HP length at the most)
  • Reduce the range of slides to make spacing more important for making moves safe, but maybe make it possible to have the head walk in exchange (this is an iffy clause, but it makes up for the lack of mobility from reduced slide distance, although reducing slide range on its own could be fine and not need compensation).

Additionally, as a couple of changes for Filia, it's be nice to have Ringlet Spike input changed to QCB (because at the moment dashing into range and using Ringlet just results in Updo, if this was intentional then first of all ewww, and second of all ok disregard the input change thing). A more influencial change I'd like is the horizontal range of j.HK reduced, this doesn't make mixups any harder (except possibly on BB and Double) but it reduces the usefulness of j.HK as an air to air move, particularly one that can break supers when mindlessly used.
 
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