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Shin Megami Tensei and Persona

MMan7172 said:
I'm far from a SMT guy, but i'm not at all sure why this is such a surprise. Since this games development began, two things have been numerically proven:
A) Fire Emblem's best sales have come from hyper-anime writing and character design with water down combat mechanics, and ONLY with that,
and B) People are more than willing to buy Persona 4 78 times.
Honestly, it would have been more shocking if it wasn't like this.
Then why bother making SMT IV at all if Persona games are what sells nowadays?
 
MMan7172 said:
I'm far from a SMT guy, but i'm not at all sure why this is such a surprise. Since this games development began, two things have been numerically proven:
A) Fire Emblem's best sales have come from hyper-anime writing and character design with water down combat mechanics, and ONLY with that,
and B) People are more than willing to buy Persona 4 78 times.
Honestly, it would have been more shocking if it wasn't like this.

Two counter points:

A: Been playing Awakening again lately, and I'm pretty sure I could debunk both of those points more effectively now, especially the "watered down combat mechanics", which the more time I put in the more I realize is complete bunk. However this isn't the thread.

B: The first trailer we saw showed and implied something completely different. We were shown, in the original art styles, cameos from various characters from various titles within both series histories. Even the fucking background in that trailer was dark and stormy and implied at least some sort of medieval or post-apocalyptic battleground more apprpiate for both franchises. We were expecting an actual crossover with those characters, not a completely newfangled Persona style rpg with nothing recognizable from either series in terms of gameplay, character, art, and story.

The point is, calling it Fire Emblem X SMT right now feels like borderline false advertising. What Fire Emblem-esque elements or even non-Persona Smt elements there are present are so oblique that both franchises could have been removed from the title and nobody would ever have noticed.

I will not give a fuck and will give the game a shot if it turns out to be an srpg, but if it's a turn based dungeon crawler I'm out.
 
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The Koopaling? Oh that'd be great. One of my favorites.
 
Ruin said:
but is roy in this game

From the looks of it, he'll probably a heavily abstract summon that vaguely looks like a red haired swordsman.

So yeah, I guess.
 
Apparently, it's not even called SMTXFE in Japan anymore. The official title is Gen'ei Ibunroku #FE (roughly translated as Illusion Revelation #FE). Something tells me that the crossover idea implied by the announcement trailer is pretty much dead in the water.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
T
B: The first trailer we saw showed and implied something completely different. We were shown, in the original art styles, cameos from various characters from various titles within both series histories. Even the fucking background in that trailer was dark and stormy and implied at least some sort of medieval or post-apocalyptic battleground more apprpiate for both franchises. We were expecting an actual crossover with those characters, not a completely newfangled Persona style rpg with nothing recognizable from either series in terms of gameplay, character, art, and story.
Courtesy post

For reference, all the SMT characters shown are the main character from each game, and their companion character. In order SMT I, SMT II, SMT: if... (where both the male and female MC are shown), Nocturne, and SMT IV. Since Strange Journey is not considered a canonical SMT title (but it still happened maybe?) the MC from that game isn't shown.

The point is, calling it Fire Emblem X SMT right now feels like borderline false advertising. What Fire Emblem-esque elements or even non-Persona Smt elements there are present are so oblique that both franchises could have been removed from the title and nobody would ever have noticed.

I will not give a fuck and will give the game a shot if it turns out to be an srpg, but if it's a turn based dungeon crawler I'm out.
It has been mentioned that in the japanese media the title has been changed to Gen'ei Ibunroku ♯FE or Revelation of the Illusion ♯FE. With a sharp sign probably denoting the musical motifs of the game. However it's now being called Shin Megami Tensei and Fire Emblem in the western world so maybe they are just lagging behind?
 
shoryusatsu999 said:
Apparently, it's not even called SMTXFE in Japan anymore. The official title is Gen'ei Ibunroku #FE (roughly translated as Illusion Revelation #FE). Something tells me that the crossover idea implied by the announcement trailer is pretty much dead in the water.
PaperBag_Sniper said:
It has been mentioned that in the japanese media the title has been changed to Gen'ei Ibunroku ♯FE or Revelation of the Illusion ♯FE. With a sharp sign probably denoting the musical motifs of the game. However it's now being called Shin Megami Tensei and Fire Emblem in the western world so maybe they are just lagging behind?

Yup, the demon summoning tactical cross over srpg we had hoped for seems pretty much dead at the moment. Time to start focusing entirely on FE:If.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
The point is, calling it Fire Emblem X SMT right now feels like borderline false advertising.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree completely, it's bullshit.
All I'm saying is that when Persona 4 gets 2 remakes, 2 fighting games, and a dancing game, I'm not all too surprised that this isn't really SMTxFE anymore. Sucks, but I don't think it's that out of left field.
 
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Squire Grooktook said:
Yup, the demon summoning tactical cross over srpg we had hoped for seems pretty much dead at the moment. Time to start focusing entirely on FE:If.
To be honest, I was really hoping the WOULDN'T try and make an SRPG with the harsh elements of SMT. Demon contracting and fusion would be awkward and tough to pull off in a linear SRPG and possibly broken in a world map like Awakenings. I was hoping for a SMT-style game involving both's casts. I'm still bummed, but I never wanted an SRPG, I just can't see how it would work and still be less complicated than a Disgaea game.
 
North888 said:
To be honest, I was really hoping the WOULDN'T try and make an SRPG with the harsh elements of SMT. Demon contracting and fusion would be awkward and tough to pull off in a linear SRPG and possibly broken in a world map like Awakenings. I was hoping for a SMT-style game involving both's casts. I'm still bummed, but I never wanted an SRPG, I just can't see how it would work and still be less complicated than a Disgaea game.

You already recruit people in Fire Emblem, so it really wouldn't be much of a difference honestly. And open world has been done twice in FE already, and it worked well both times (Awakening did it better, Sacred Stones was grind hell though).

Fusion was already done well in both Devil Survivor srpg's. They technically replaced recruitment with demon auction though.

An srpg would be real cool, what with the ability to say, summon a demon at the cost of a turn, or utilize press turns for characters. There's a lot of potential there for innovation on both series parts. An SMT-style game for both casts sounds like an inferior version of actual SMT, given the story and characters wouldn't gel as well now.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Yup, the demon summoning tactical cross over srpg we had hoped for seems pretty much dead at the moment. Time to start focusing entirely on FE:If.
But...but I've never played a Fire emblem game. I was in this for my demon summoning bros.

North888 said:
To be honest, I was really hoping the WOULDN'T try and make an SRPG with the harsh elements of SMT. Demon contracting and fusion would be awkward and tough to pull off in a linear SRPG and possibly broken in a world map like Awakenings. I was hoping for a SMT-style game involving both's casts. I'm still bummed, but I never wanted an SRPG, I just can't see how it would work and still be less complicated than a Disgaea game.
I can see a problem arising if this (hypothetical) game were to rely too heavily on SMT mechanics. Really, something like the devil auction from Devil Survivor would alleviate the recruitment problems. Just have a "greatest hits" of demons from the SMT games (Jack Frost, Cerberus, Mara, etc) and assign a cost for recruiting them.

The game would have to allow for teams to be placed on the map (also similar to Devil Survivor). For the SMT characters, since most are humans using the Demon summoning program, if an allied demon falls in combat let them summon another from their reserves (if applicable). The Fire Emblem characters would also be allowed to team up with basic units representative of their own series and maybe give named characters the ability to rally troops and buff their own units.
 
The problem is that the open world you mention is nothing but a world map. Demon recruitment would be awkward and the demon auction I feel is silly.
you could be like Devil Survivor/Pair Up system and groups of FE units and aSMT unit w/ demons.

I see the possibility, but I still would prefer more action RPG or RPG elements. Preferences I guess.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
But...but I've never played a Fire emblem game. I was in this for my demon summoning bros.

You should give em a try sometime. They're about as mechanically satisfying as any SMT game, moreso I think actually. Not the "deepest" srpg's around, but I enjoy the ultra fast pace and emphasis on moment to moment survival tactics over long term planning.

Combining that with press turns and summoning could have made for something really interesting I think, oh well.
 
North888 said:
The problem is that the open world you mention is nothing but a world map. Demon recruitment would be awkward and the demon auction I feel is silly.
you could be like Devil Survivor/Pair Up system and groups of FE units and aSMT unit w/ demons.

I see the possibility, but I still would prefer more action RPG or RPG elements. Preferences I guess.
I really don't see a need to allow for demon recruitment in combat since one of the trademarks of Fire Emblem games is limited units hence why I used Devil Survivor as a basic template. The game can still be broken into grid based maps and recruitment happens between missions for the SMT side. I imagined that at some point the story would start to merge the SMT and FE sides together to tackle some huge threat *cough* Demifiend *cough* so you could probably mix SMT and FE characters into parties, and fill in the gaps with demons/infantry.

It is preferences but if you're going to have a game in the title that's based completely around grid based strategy games, it would be pretty crappy not to include that. SMT is more flexible since the franchise has a lot of mechanics to pull from.

Squire Grooktook said:
You should give em a try sometime.
What's a good game to with?
 
I wanted to wait and see how the characters from SMT IV and Awakening get the most screentime
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
What's a good game to with?

My personal favorite, and a good starting point, is Fire Emblem 7 Blazing Sword, aka just "Fire Emblem" in the west. It was the first one localized, and they picked a good place to start. Pretty much has all the best things in the franchise introduced over the years, with a solid amount of refinement at that point. The story is also some of the best writing in the series imo, with a fairly long and involved plot with tons of twists and a great cast where everyone has good character development down to the smallest supporting unit (although outside the main trio, most of it comes from the optional "support" conversations between units).

Also like most of the games outside of a few (Sacred Stones, Awakening), it's based on a mission to mission linear approach (with a few optional side stories), so there's no grinding and is basically just "get good or die". Appropriately satisfying, and every playthrough is different since units will end up getting exp differently and you'll reach the end with a different party/army configuration.

Only catch with 7 is that it has a very lengthy, and much more light hearted prologue chapter focusing on Lyn. The story and gameplay doesn't start to get more serious till it switches over to Eliwood's story.
 
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Squire Grooktook said:
My personal favorite, and a good starting point, is Fire Emblem 7 Blazing Sword, aka just "Fire Emblem" in the west.
I'll give this one a look then.

Also like most of the games outside of a few (Sacred Stones, Awakening), it's based on a mission to mission linear approach (with a few optional side stories), so there's no grinding and is basically just "get good or die". Appropriately satisfying, and every playthrough is different since units will end up getting exp differently and you'll reach the end with a different party/army configuration.
See I'm an Advance Wars veteran and this sounds like something I can get into. I know intelligent systems makes both series so I'll probably fit right in.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
I'll give this one a look then.


See I'm an Advance Wars veteran and this sounds like something I can get into. I know intelligent systems makes both series so I'll probably fit right in.

Yup, it's basically the same series, except fewer units and perma death forces you to be more deliberate and survival focused. Pretty much all of the games are worth playing, for the localized titles I'd recommend going from FE 7 > POR > Awakening*.

Only games I don't recommend starting with are Sacred Stones and Dawn of Radiance (Stones for being a grindfest, though the actual battles are still intense, making it still worth playing. IMO Dawn is absolutely horrible and shouldn't be played at all due to the introduction of mid mission saving turning it a tension-less save-state-o-rama Super Meatboy: The Srpg.)

*
Actually, as much as I enjoy Awakening, the focus on deliberately lighter and softer tone might be jarring after playing through the darker POR, even though it still stays true to the themes of the series. Imo though it's still way better then Shadow Dragon, Sacred Stones, or Radiant Dawn. I would recommend Sacred Stones next otherwise, at least for the localized titles. Geaneology of The Holy War is probably your next bet if you don't mind translation patches.
 
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I still stand by Radiant Dawn being one of the best. The nostalgia is glued to me here, though XD. It should still be played to see te conclusion to the two games. Everyone complains about it, but the only real complaint I hear is the battle save.
 
North888 said:
I still stand by Radiant Dawn being one of the best. The nostalgia is glued to me here, though XD. It should still be played to see te conclusion to the two games. Everyone complains about it, but the only real complaint I hear is the battle save.

IMO there are other issues with story and gameplay, but the battle system is the main one which causes all the rest to converge. It basically breaking the whole point and the series, and takes all the excitement and tension out of the experience.

It's even worse then Super Meat Boy actually, in that rewriting the wrong save is probably the biggest true challenge in the game.
 
could just
not use it
not like they force you to use battle save
heck
it's disabled on hard mode, ain't it?
 
Ruin said:
could just
not use it
not like they force you to use battle save

The game is pretty balanced around it, given the upscaled difficulty. Pretty massive self imposed challenge not to, and it's not like Bayonetta or a shmup where your score is fucked if you continue. There is absolutely no reason not to abuse the hell out of it, and iirc the game makes plenty sure you'll be frustrated if you don't.

Ruin said:
it's disabled on hard mode, ain't it?

I'm pretty sure it's usable on all difficulties, iirc. If I'm wrong though...maybe I'll reconsider about the game a bit.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
IMO there are other issues with story and gameplay, but the battle system is the main one which causes all the rest to converge. It basically breaking the whole point and the series, and takes all the excitement and tension out of the experience.

It's even worse then Super Meat Boy actually, in that rewriting the wrong save is probably the biggest true challenge in the game.

Couldn't the same be said for Awakening's casual option to turn perma-death off?
 
BeatNinja said:
alsothisain'tthethread.
Um...um...So for those who don't know. In SMT I and II demons didn't gain levels at all. I kind of liked this because it made managing a party less grindy.
 
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We can (and have if I remember correctly) argue about this all day, but it won't change the fact that it is optional. I still stand by Radiant Dawn being a good game. Maybe not the best in the series, but still a high quality product. Comparable in that sense to many of 4s issues that make it worse than Nocturne but still a solid game overall.
 
Ruin said:
could just
not use it
not like they force you to use battle save
heck
it's disabled on hard mode, ain't it?

You also can't see the range of your opponents movement on hard, which is complete shit. I actually don't hate Radiant Dawn that much, but I still wouldn't recommend it unless you really want to know the plot continuation.
It's still far from the worst FE game.
 
BeatNinja said:
Couldn't the same be said for Awakening's casual option to turn perma-death off?

That's an optional difficulty mode though. This could go into a long debate about what counts as "self imposed challenge", but I don't think it counts when you limit such factors to an alternate mode that's basically labeled as the baby version.

PaperBag_Sniper said:
Um...um...So for those who don't know. In SMT I and II demons didn't gain levels at all. I kind of liked this because it made managing a party less grindy.

I hear the iphone remake of smt 1 is pretty solid, and refines the gameplay quite a bit (similar to the final fantasy 1 remakes). Anyone play it?

MMan7172 said:
It's still far from the worst FE game.

I disagree (well, I haven't played Thracia) ;). For me, it's a game that goes against everything that makes the series tense on a fundamental level. It's the only game in the series which imo shouldn't even be a part of the franchise. I could see myself replaying Sacred Stones, despite its massive list of sins (and I have, and I enjoyed it), but Dawn is just no.

North888 said:
We can (and have if I remember correctly) argue about this all day, but it won't change the fact that it is optional. I still stand by Radiant Dawn being a good game. Maybe not the best in the series, but still a high quality product. Comparable in that sense to many of 4s issues that make it worse than Nocturne but still a solid game overall.

It's not a bad game. I just feel it goes against what the series is all about, and as a result I really don't like or recommend it. If you like Super Meat Boy (I really really don't) then you can enjoy it, it's basically the strategy game equivalent. Also I don't think this was discussed for longer then several posts previously.
 
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Gotten off topic but yea Fire Emblem is a great series, though it can get quite heavy. Each one has their own little thing about them though. Most say go with FE7, or Fire Emblem as its known in the west because it's the first one localized and is also a prequel to the main story. Sacred Stones I find to be a bit easier because you have the option to just grind your levels and I believe it's also the first one that introduces trainee units? (need clarification on this one, it's been a while) and trainee units start off weak but if you level them up they become some of the best top tier units in the game. I still have to get through Awakening, so that's a thing, and monster hunter's been pulling all my attention lately.
 
Trying to steer the topic back on subject, I have a fun fact.

You know how Kikuri-hime got a redesign coming from the SNES games to Nocturne (the redesign being what Eliza 3 is based off of)? Turns out there was a lot more behind that according to Kazuma Kaneko's art designs. Apparently Kikuri-hime was originally going to be some sort of partner demon for the player, so they gave her a from-the-ground-up redesign because of that fact. I'm assuming that role was eventually transferred over to what we got in Pixie, but now I'm kinda interested in a Kikuri partner.
 
Nap1400 said:
Trying to steer the topic back on subject, I have a fun fact.

You know how Kikuri-hime got a redesign coming from the SNES games to Nocturne (the redesign being what Eliza 3 is based off of)? Turns out there was a lot more behind that according to Kazuma Kaneko's art designs. Apparently Kikuri-hime was originally going to be some sort of partner demon for the player, so they gave her a from-the-ground-up redesign because of that fact. I'm assuming that role was eventually transferred over to what we got in Pixie, but now I'm kinda interested in a Kikuri partner.

Yeah, that's pretty interesting.

I'll try to steer too: As SMT IV was mentioned, I think that's a good comparison.

I actually think SMT IV is one of the best games in the franchise, and could have been the best with a few gameplay tweaks. Things like the new monster designers (mostly) sucking are minor, but the way they screwed over combat and dungeon exploration really hurts. It's still a mile better then SMT 1 and 2 imo, it just doesn't reach the peak of Nocturne, which is just about perfect in every way (gameplay, story, art, music, everything).
 
Nap1400 said:
Trying to steer the topic back on subject, I have a fun fact.

You know how Kikuri-hime got a redesign coming from the SNES games to Nocturne (the redesign being what Eliza 3 is based off of)? Turns out there was a lot more behind that according to Kazuma Kaneko's art designs. Apparently Kikuri-hime was originally going to be some sort of partner demon for the player, so they gave her a from-the-ground-up redesign because of that fact. I'm assuming that role was eventually transferred over to what we got in Pixie, but now I'm kinda interested in a Kikuri partner.
639px-Kikuri-hime_model.png

I'd have been down for a sidekick. Nocturne does feel really lonely at times.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
I'd have been down for a sidekick. Nocturne does feel really lonely at times.

IMO that's the best part of Nocturne though. No other game has such a thick atmosphere of isolation and loneliness then Nocturne, while still having just the right amount of plot/characterization on top of being a super fun game.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
I disagree (well, I haven't played Thracia)

Well, that explains it. Compared to Tharcia, RD is a masterpiece on par with Da Vinci's works.
Also, you're not wrong about RD, I just don't find the mid-battle saving mechanic to be that breaking. It's stupid, but it's very possible to beat the game without it. For me the biggest problem with RD was probably the removal of support dialogue.
(Also, if this train want's to keep rolling, bring it to the FE Thread. I'm out unless I want bitch about how much attention P4 gets.
 
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