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Shin Megami Tensei and Persona

Man is there an SRW thread? Because I need to talk about the difficulty spikes in motherfucking OG 1.

Jesus Christ Ingram calm the fuck down and just get hit with the R-Wing.
 
iLoli said:
Man is there an SRW thread? Because I need to talk about the difficulty spikes in motherfucking OG 1.

Jesus Christ Ingram calm the fuck down and just get hit with the R-Wing.

You mean a Bucket of Tears thread.

Yes I need this.
 
The first thing a friend of mine told me (she is a HUGE P3 fan) before I played Persona 4 that it's an episode of Scooby Doo, so I would like to think there is some truth to this:
UzpQ3XH.jpg
 
I'm a P3 fan and...uh..I break the mold? I see it more...not best symbolism? :/

I must ruin this joke if it kills me!
 
P2 fan and I look really favorably on P3 cause I think it was legitimately good in spite of it's flaws. P4 is good but didn't hold up over the years as much as P2/3 did.
 
Ambiguity said:
You mean a Bucket of Tears thread.

Yes I need this.
Can we talk about how hard Latooni can and will hold a nigga down?

IN A MOTHERFUCKING FIGHTER JET?

Latooni actual best girl.
 
It's always tempting to complain about things being over-rated, but I do think the whole Persona franchise has earned its fans. They aren't without their flaws, and they're not my favorite rpg's in terms of story/characters/gameplay, but they do have a helluva lot of strengths that more than make up for a few weaknesses.

I think Persona 4 would have been godtier though if there was actually a suitably shocking and world shaking revelation behind the mystery. I'm quite fond of having a central mystery pushing a story forward, but I feel P4's conclusion dropped the ball after some very nice build up.

Also I might be in the minority, but I'm not a fan of Adachi. I found his reveal surprising, which was good, but I'm not really fond of "straw nihilist" type villains these days. Makes me wish more games had quirky, expectation breaking pre-final boss banter like in Shadow Hearts 1 and 2 ("alright, whoever wins, no hard feelings").
 
I think Persona has earned its fans, but at the same time, I don't know if its earned everything its gotten. I feel series like SMT deserve more love in general, and right now it seems the in-thing is to be a fan of a "cult classic" type game series. Which feeds into why I think stuff like Monster Hunter and Persona all of sudden because mega hits. Of course, they are great games, but they seemed to suddenly own the spotlight after being more cult following-type games just a few years back. And a lot of modern Persona fans know next to nothing about SMT, similar to how a lot of new fans that started wit Awakening know next to nothing of the earlier games and brush them off because of the perma death and only the perma death.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
It's always tempting to complain about things being over-rated, but I do think the whole Persona franchise has earned its fans. They aren't without their flaws, and they're not my favorite rpg's in terms of story/characters/gameplay, but they do have a helluva lot of strengths that more than make up for a few weaknesses.

I think Persona 4 would have been godtier though if there was actually a suitably shocking and world shaking revelation behind the mystery. I'm quite fond of having a central mystery pushing a story forward, but I feel P4's conclusion dropped the ball after some very nice build up.

Also I might be in the minority, but I'm not a fan of Adachi. I found his reveal surprising, which was good, but I'm not really fond of "straw nihilist" type villains these days. Makes me wish more games had quirky, expectation breaking pre-final boss banter like in Shadow Hearts 1 and 2 ("alright, whoever wins, no hard feelings").
Well, fan how?

As in a bad villian, or a bad character?

I feel like he fit the game's theme appropriately.

I also usually hate the "god is behind it all" skit, but when the god says it's humanity's fault and rightfully so, it's a little more interesting.

The entire gimmick of the "TV box" was well done, and it's one the main reasons I actually enjoy the plot of P4, it's just handled so well.

You live in a small, relatively under middle class town in the boonies.

Your connection to the outside world is through the television.

People eventually take that view too far, and distort it with reality, cases such as Rise and Kanji rise up.

People even start lying and saying that if you watch the tv, you'll get a glimpse of a persons's "true self"(at the end of the game, it's explained that the truth it the opposite) ; it's a box, a literal box, how could that free anyone?

A character like Adachi, who lacks any real social interaction, treats people like TV personas, caricatures (this is barring his shitty p4a cameo) and thus pays for it.
 
iLoli said:
Well, fan how?

As in a bad villian, or a bad character?

I feel like he fit the game's theme appropriately.

I also usually hate the "god is behind it all" skit, but when the god says it's humanity's fault and rightfully so, it's a little more interesting.

The entire gimmick of the "TV box" was well done, and it's one the main reasons I actually enjoy the plot of P4, it's just handled so well.

I don't think he's a bad character per se, more I just didn't find him particularly interesting or charismatic. To me, he's just your typical "lol ur lives have no meaning" villain who exists to personify philosophies that the audience doessn't like, and is then soundly beaten (and his philosophies explicitly rejected by the protaganists) in order to show the defeat of such ideals and reassure the audience of their own values.

That's not necessarily bad storytelling or anything, I just didn't find it that memorable or interesting in this case.

I agree that I really liked the whole TV World idea, I just found the conclusion to be underwhelming. It's ultimately just boils down to "some jrpg demon wanted blow up the earth because humans are dumb" kind of thing that I'm no stranger to these days in rpg's.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
I don't think he's a bad character per se, more I just didn't find him particularly interesting or charismatic. To me, he's just your typical "lol ur lives have no meaning" villain who exists to personify philosophies that the audience doessn't like, and is then soundly beaten (and his philosophies explicitly rejected by the protaganists) in order to show the defeat of such ideals.

I agree that I really liked the whole TV World idea, I just found the conclusion to be underwhelming. It's ultimately just boils down to "some jrpg demon wanted blow up the earth because humans are dumb" kind of thing that I'm no stranger to these days in rpg's.
Sorry for the ninja edit to my previous post, please go back and read it.

I'm fine with Adachi in this setting because he's relevant to the time of this particular story. More now than ever, we have this kind of character type show up in life, the "brilliant but lazy" type, it's bullshit. It turns people with talent into anti-social apathetic jackasses. So watching the main characters break down his beta nietzsche thought process was great.

I also disagree, No main villian in the entire series wanted to blow up earth, they just saw that a lot of humans weren't "ready" for the responsibility that comes with autonomy, and tried doing their jobs as gods.
 
iLoli said:
Sorry for the ninja edit to my previous post, please go back and read it.

I'm fine with Adachi in this setting because he's relevant to the time of this particular story. More now than ever, we have this kind of character type show up in life, the "brilliant but lazy" type, it's bullshit. It turns people with talent into anti-social apathetic jackasses. So watching the main characters break down his beta nietzsche thought process was great.

I also disagree, No main villian in the entire series wanted to blow up earth, they just saw that a lot of humans weren't "ready" for the responsibility that comes with autonomy, and tried doing their jobs as gods.

I think that's an interesting interpretation of Adachi, but I feel that at any rate, it didn't really come through in the final battle with him (which is 99% of your exposure to his real personality). His speeches at the end are basically just mocking the values of the protaganist with a Joker kind of swagger. Nothing that hasn't been done by a million villains beforehand.


iLoli said:
I also disagree, No main villian in the entire series wanted to blow up earth, they just saw that a lot of humans weren't "ready" for the responsibility that comes with autonomy, and tried doing their jobs as gods.

This I completely disagree with. Izanami was a completely unsympathetic monster who wanted to destroy the world because "it was what people wanted" rather than just, you know, asking them what they wanted. Not to mention it's none of her damn business.

I get that she's supposed to be an entity who doesn't really "understand" humans, as well as being a vaguelly defined anthropomorphic personification, but that doesn't change the fact that she's ultimately just an unsympathetic, mindless destructive force. An unsympathetic mindless destructive force is fine as a villain, but Izanagi and her rationale was presented as some kind of plot twist, when it was anything but. It was just one more man behind the curtain out to destroy the world for a stupid reason.

I felt the tv world had a great sense of mystery, and the build up to "the truth" was great...it's just that there wasn't much truth to speak of. After all that "you sure you wanna know the truth?" You reeaaaaallly sure?" "you know it's tough finding the truth right?" "SUPER tough!" "And you might not find it anyway!" "and even if you do, you might not like it!" speeches and talks from various characters, the "truth" doesn't really justify any of that because it doesn't force the protaganists to change their world view or have any emotional reaction really. It's just one more monster to kill.
 
I do love how each game in the Persona series has the whole "rumors create truths" scenario going on. It's less obvious in P3 and P4, but P3's Apathy Syndrome and the legend of the missing room in the school (which relates to section of Tartarus, funnily enough), and the whole TV world and rumor behind the TV showing your "Soul Mate" at the start of P4. Both connect the whole rumors making things and events real, which was a major theme in the previous 2 games.
 
I felt that the characters handling of the "truth" was unwittingly done by them throughout the entire game. Every time a character said "you're not me" was a rejection of the "truth", and every time they accepted the "bad" part of themselves was a bit of their world view changing, social links were that, as well.

While gameplay wise, the characters changing of world view were handled separately than then answer, theme wise, it fits right in.

There are two truths to the game, the truth of the characters, and the truth of the world.

The characters already establish their own personal truths before they get to Izanami.

The characters then defeat Izanami to show the world's truths at time coincide with one of their own many truths. (Hence the final attack's name "myraid truths")

Finding out the truth WAS hard, you had to hold back your instinct to kill the first person you saw responsible, defeat a man you were supposed to trust the entire game, see his shitty worldview, then confront a god who told you about the overwhelmingly high amount of people who don't actually care about the truth.

Izanami: Basically telling characters that the "truth" doesn't matter to humans, they'll take what they want anyways.
159
P4 Cast: Basically agreeing with her, saying that while many people do have many different truths, that's the BEAUTY OF IT ALL, that there isn't one truth, that there are many sides to every story, and as long as you accept yourself, your truth will never be weaker than anyone elses.

The team defeats Izanmi's "one true answer" with "myraid truths". That's why Ameno-Saigiri is literally one eyeball in a sea of fog, that's why the investigation team uses glasses.

The level of thought put into this game's symbolism is really astounding at times.

Also, I disagree with Adachi, while I saw everything you saw, his scenes previous (him talking about how he's always screwed up and that shit doesn't matter, and how he handles talking to a tv star and a high school girl in particular) shows to me that he's a sad dude playing the role of the Joker.

While Yu understands that he knows nothing and seeks the truth, Adachi feels that there is nothing to understand, and confides in only his own self-righteousness.
 
North888 said:
I do love how each game in the Persona series has the whole "rumors create truths" scenario going on. It's less obvious in P3 and P4, but P3's Apathy Syndrome and the legend of the missing room in the school (which relates to section of Tartarus, funnily enough), and the whole TV world and rumor behind the TV showing your "Soul Mate" at the start of P4. Both connect the whole rumors making things and events real, which was a major theme in the previous 2 games.
The whole point of the first half of p4 was "rumors make shit come true", you just didn't know it until the end.
 
Also Izanmi was extremely sympathetic with the p4 cast.

The p4 cast is not the p3 cast, they didn't defeat a god in mortal combat, Izanami lost a debate to the p4 cast.

The p3 team show their wills to live by defeating Nyx's avatar in a deathmatch.

The p4 team show how much they've learned by having a very lively discourse with Izanami.

Izanami could come down anytime she wanted, she's not beholded to some prophecy or avatar or anything, she's only binded by her own agreement with the p4 cast.
 
iLoli said:
truth truth truth

Well, here's the thing for me.

I can respect symbolism and all that, but as someone raised on classic literature, I prefer for it to actually say something.

What truth do we, the audience, actually learn at the end of Persona 4?

That searching for the truth is good? If you asked the average player if that was a good thing before starting the game, they probably would have said yes.

That the magical murder mystery was initiated by a magical demon trying to destroy the world? I think the "space whales" plot in Star Trek had more applicability then that.

That "most people don't care about the truth?...maybe. But to be honest, that was barely even shown in game. 99% of the cast embraces the truth about themselves (despite mostly being teenagers!) thanks to hanging out with one plucky grey haired dude for a few afternoons. Izanami's complaints about mankind aren't really evidenced in game, and even if they were, her "solution" makes even less sense. "Humans can't handle the responsibility of free will, so let's make the world EVEN MORE DESTRUCTIVE AND CHAOTIC". At least the Angels YOUBETRAYEDTHELAW solution kinda made sense (albeit a very selfish sense) in their post apocalyptic settings.

At the end of the day, we the audience don't get anything out of "the truth" except a hallmark card message about friendship and truth. Without actually exploring any kind of truth that's relevant to the audience other than a few moderately well written character interactions.

At the end of the day, I think the game has some interesting ideas about social interaction, a nice mystery based plot that falls a bit short, and alright characters for the most part. But I think it falls short of being a truly classic adventure story or being a truly thought provoking story.
 
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It's also shown in how the p4 cast "accept" the "bad" part of them.

Remember, the shadow is the amalgamation of the entire town's views of the person.

Rejecting how an entire community sees you is kind of dumb, especially since it's your community, you have to own up to that, the game isn't telling you that you should be beholden to those "truths", you do have to accept that their are valid interpretations of you, because everyone's opinion of something like this is just as valid as yours.

No one in the team ever accepts their bad part, they accept "their shadow", the part of them that walk besides them everyday, the part of them that they may not see because they're never introspective enough to look down, a valid part of them that everyone else has an opinion of, and that they have to accept.

Basically the entire town told the cast how they felt about them, the cast said "that's not me" (especially Kanji, Rise and Yukkiko), the town got angry, and the characters grew up a little to understand that outside observations and impressions are valid.
 
Yeah. Like I said, I think the social and media related elements are the most interesting parts of the game. I think the game would have been more interested if it actually continued to explore those elements in unique ways (rather than the increasingly predictable "you're not me!" antics over and over) instead of just throwing in a big mean final boss out to destroy the world, whom the party must debate with (but resolve the debate with violence anyway).
 
Well, I think you could argue even that was done fairly poorly. Honestly Yosuke never comes off as having changed too much. Yeah's a tougher guy and a stronger personality, able to stand up and be more decisive, but the thing that created his shadow, at least from the context the shadow gave us, didn't really change. He was stll disheartened with life out in a small town, and didn't really seem to get over it too much in the end.

Naoto's progression into being more of an adult and accepting the fact she's a girl and a kid seems to manifest in some annoying ways. While she does grow to show more of her feminine side, sometimes it feels more thrown into to make her waifu bait or just generally make her character grow in a negative way for me. Instead of this tough and decisive character, we see that she can fluster easily and show parts of her that don't really make sense, like her attempting to be more girly in general. It just doesn't really work. It occasionally made for a good joke or two, but it felt like it took away from an already strong character in order to make her appeal more as a female character isntead of just being a character.

I could go into my issues with some of the rest of the cast, but I don't feel like typing too many paragraphs tonight :/
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Well, here's the thing for me.

I can respect symbolism and all that, but as someone raised on classic literature, I prefer for it to actually say something.

What truth do we, the audience, actually learn at the end of Persona 4?

That searching for the truth is good? If you asked the average player if that was a good thing before starting the game, they probably would have said yes.

That the magical murder mystery was initiated by a magical demon trying to destroy the world? I think the "space whales" plot in Star Trek had more applicability then that.

That "most people don't care about the truth?...maybe. But to be honest, that was barely even shown in game. 99% of the cast embraces the truth about themselves (despite mostly being teenagers!) thanks to hanging out with one plucky grey haired dude for a few afternoons. Izanami's complaints about mankind aren't really evidenced in game, and even if they were, her "solution" makes even less sense. "Humans can't handle the responsibility of free will, so let's make the world EVEN MORE DESTRUCTIVE AND CHAOTIC". At least the Angels kinda had a point in their post apocalyptic settings.

At the end of the day, we the audience don't get anything out of "the truth" except a hallmark card message about friendship and truth. Without actually exploring any kind of truth that's relevant to the audience other than a few moderately well written character interactions.

At the end of the day, I think the game has some interesting ideas about social interaction, a nice mystery based plot that falls a bit short, and alright characters for the most part. But I think it falls short of being a truly classic adventure story or being a truly thought provoking story.

That's a pretty elementary way to look at the story, and while I hate to assume, I think it's fair that if you didn't really get a message out of this, you probably didn't get a message out of NGE, or Lain or Bokurano.

That's cool and all, but I feel it's simplistic.

The moral of the story wasn't really friendship, it was of acceptance.

Most of the characters' story arcs are pretty interesting in ways that I can talk about tomorrow if you want, it's getting a little late on this side of the planet.

But to keep it short.

Izanami saw chaos, and proposed a solution, no autonomy, no pain, you just exist, since humanity couldn't settle on one truth, she gave you one.

The P4 cast told Izananami to shut up and ACCEPT that many different people ACCEPT many different things.

The ACCEPTANCE of other people's values and willingness to live together is what's magical.

In P4 you're told to ACCEPT a lot of things, but never told to deny any of them, in fact, denial is what starts the story in the first place.

Adachi's inability to ACCEPT that he's fucked up.

Dojima's inability to ACCEPT that his wife's killer is gone.

Youskue's inability to ACCEPT his new environment.

Chie's inability to ACCEPT that she's not who she wants to be, yet.

Yukkiko's inability to ACCEPT that her parent's views and her views are one in the same, never getting an actual chance to rebel.

Kanji's inability to ACCEPT that he's a little different.

Naoto's inability to ACCEPT that some things are outside of her control.

Rise's inability to ACCEPT that there is more to her than even she knows, that she's a complex person.

Izanami's inability to ACCEPT that there are different view points other than her own.

Everytime someone denies something in the game, bad shit happens.

The "moral" of the story is ACCEPTANCE. (there's more than that, but I'm tired)

If this was a book and you couldn't find a theme or something to this, I'd ask you to reread the book.

The truth is the red hairring, the bait and switch. (ironic, right. It's like these fuckers could write or something.)

Acceptance is what this story is about, and they drill it into your head every step of the way.

Even the games music and titles want to decieve you.(Reach out to the TRUTH, face my TRUE self).

What the audience learns is ACCEPTANCE, to accept others viewpoints, while holding adapting yours and becoming a stronger person.

Bed time.
 
Acceptance is a fine message to talk about, but we're getting into the individual characters, which is one places where I think the game is hit and miss. Overall, I thought the character writing/script was okay to solid, but nothing to write home about.

But this might be also where we get into the realm of "it's subjective". I felt a lot of the characters plot advancements felt somewhat shallow, rushed, and forced. You might not, and that's okay. I've seen people debate the writing on everything, so a difference of opinion is not something I object to. But this is where the strength of "acceptance" as a message or theme might vary from person to person. A story or theme is only as powerful as the characters that make it up.

I think P4 is a good game with some good characters and a good story (that nosedives a bit). But I don't think it's as thematically rich or applicable as Dark Souls or any good book, and I don't think it's plot is as fun or its characters are as likable as a romping adventure story like Odin Sphere or any Fire Emblem game. It's solid, but that's as far as I would take it.

iLoli said:
Most of the characters' story arcs are pretty interesting in ways that I can talk about tomorrow if you want, it's getting a little late on this side of the planet.

I totally respect your opinions, but no thanks. As much as I enjoyed P4, my experience with the writing and characters was merely "above average". If you got more resonance or feels out of it than I did, that's cool, and I respect your taste. But I didn't find it that interesting.

iLoli said:
T
Izanami saw chaos, and proposed a solution, no autonomy, no pain, you just exist, since humanity couldn't settle on one truth, she gave you one.
A solution that nobody wanted and 99% of humanity would have found more painful, hateful, and honorific than choosing multiple truths. Yeah.

Izanami was just a crazy bitch. Let's not mince words here.

iLoli said:
That's a pretty elementary way to look at the story, and while I hate to assume, I think it's fair that if you didn't really get a message out of this, you probably didn't get a message out of NGE, or Lain or Bokurano.

I spent half my childhood reading classic literature, and still do. I've read Hamlet about 7 times and written about 5-6 essays on it, loving it more each time. I'm no stranger to symbolism, motifs, themes, foreshadowing, character analysis and development, etc.

That's one reason why I'm rarely blown away by the themes of game or anime stories. It's hard to find the very lite "acceptance" message world changing in Persona 4 after reading something like The Mayor of Casterbridge. A game has to give me something tangible and likable if I'm going to like it's characters, theme, and world.

Most games are simple stories. I can like a simple, shallow story if it's characters have a warmth or sweetness to them, or if the plot is fun. That's real. I can like a simple story if it legitimately has a very unique or interesting theme (Ray Bradbury's utterly genius "Frost and Fire" short story comes to mind). But if I don't love the characters and the theme is just preaching to the choir, I find it less interesting. I'm obviously aware there is a message in Persona 4, but I don't think it was a particularly interesting or well executed one. It's basically standard issue jrpg writing in a suburban modern day setting, imo.
 
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I actually found Izanami's rationalization more plausible than Nyx's.

Hear me out here, I'm basing my info from my unreliable memory so bear with me.

The great tragedy that the P4 cast is trying to avoid is by having all of humanity turned into shadows and be absorbed by the Fog / TV world, where they turn into beings that never accept the truth/reality of their situations. This is reflected by how a lot of the cast cannot accept their Shadow selves (superegos?) acting the way they do right before each of those boss battles. Izanami wants this because, apparently, all humans desire to live in falsehood.

The great tragedy of P3 is the end of all humanity, because apparently all humans secretly desire their own demise/end, as opposed to their lust for false truths in P4. I find this harder to believe, that the majority of human beings are that self destructive, if these are messages I'm meant to apply outside of the game and into my own reality.

Granted, many of the P3 cast goes through their own dark depressive episodes, maybe even suicidal ideation, and face to face with their mortality, as the theme of the game and all. But it's kinda hard to believe that the majority of humanity would subconsciously desire their death or something. Yeah, there's all that crazy shit like the Cult of Nyx and apathy syndrome, but without that, it made P4's great tragedy more applicable in comparison. But that's all I wanted to say about that. I preferred P3's cast/story/themes (and music) but both are really good games imo, but have enough flaws to prevent them from being gaming/story telling masterpieces or anything. I'm also a literary nerd so I agree with just about what Squire is saying.
 
I'm actually very, very surprised I never made that death drive connection. I almost always hear Jung in relation to Persona as opposed to Freud. But yeah, Freud had some wonky stuff. Imagine if castration anxiety had been in these games.

BeatNinja said:
Will P5 be


INDIFFERENCE?

P3: MEMENTO MORI
P4: SEEKERS OF TRUTH
P5: I JUST WANNA BE AN OG GANGSTA
 
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