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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

I haven't seen much discussion on the state of Big Band's parries and the public opinion on how lenient the input window should be, so I will take a stab at it.

Personally, as a low level Band player, I think they might be a littttle bit too easy. I managed to pull off around 2 or 3 parry -> beat extends when playing matches with someone, and I was thinking to myself "Man, I was trying to beat extend and I did it too late. I didn't deserve that lol". Mind you this was over a span of roughly 30 games, so maybe the fact that I only was able to do it that many times means it isn't really that noob friendly. I also am of the opinion that the Band v Robo matchup is easier by just a tad too much for Band, strictly on the basis that parries are definitely too reliable to pull off on H Beam, I feel.

What are other Big Band players' thoughts? Hell, what does everyone think about parries as they are right now? Are we just on track to an alternate timeline where everybody and their grandmother can make crossups nonexistant with their Big Band parries, or are they fine as is? I'm personally on the fence that maybe parries could be a titch more difficult to pull off, but I'm not gonna complain if the consensus is that they're fine.
 
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Hammerschmidt said:
Big Band's parries

Even though parries are easier to pull off, it's still the fact that you have to parry. You have to guess whether they hit high/mid or low and if they crossup or not. Usually, it's safer to block. And I've been in a few instances where, when I parry Para's level 3, I get mixed up out of my parry, since I have to guess while parrying the actual super.
 
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Hammerschmidt said:
Big Band's parries

They are fine, still no one using it in real matches because they´re scare to get punished most of BB players play safe mode a.k.a not parry, so has a BB player to rely a lot of hard reads im okay with this, at the end of the day still a high risk reward thing.
 
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Yeah I feel like they're fine, especially considering you're almost expected to do a few parrys to get through some zoning stuff.
 
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Wall of text ahead: basically me expressing my feelings of current Beowulf after having a week or so to test them in beta matches and in the lab.

I figured out why I constantly feel like I'm not enjoying myself playing Beowulf in actual matches anymore, I think it has to do with how much I dislike Beowulfs damage system so much right now and why when I played in matches I felt like I wasn't accomplishing much with Beowulf by the end of the match unless he kills a character outright, it's because I am doing less damage most of the time and when I do get damage similar to what I got in retail it's mostly red damage. Since his normals were nerfed you seem to be expected to use his grappler aspect a lot more to compensate for the damage loss, but you're also expected to give up pressure because of the restricted hard knockdown and to build up hype which gives them more chances to escape and regain that lost red health. So if I don't kill with Beowulf I feel like I'm just giving them even more chances to come back and accomplished next to nothing with that character, which feels like the opposite of what you want in a fighting game, especially SkullGirls.

When I did one of my full combos that started with c.lk at no undizzy and uses a hype it did 7737 damage, but after snapping them back out letting them recover their health and snapping them back in I had only actually done 3529 damage. Which means that 4208(54.4%) of my damage was recoverable.

But when I did a similar combo in retail where I gained a hype charge I did 7324 total damage with 4353 actual damage and 2971(40.6%) recoverable damage.

I know it's probably not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things but being expected to do all of this red damage as is his main focus considering the damage nerfs of his other moves while also giving the opponent more chances TO come back from returning to neutral to build hype feels awkward. It feels if they get even a chance to get their point character out I basically did nothing because a smart player will have played for time long enough to recover most of that characters health back before I get them back in assuming I ever do.

His damage is only particularly good right now if you get a good clean hit that you can convert into a grab stance to use his EX's early before the damage becomes scaled by all the weaker normals. Where if you get a stray hit and are converting off it, you're going to do WAY less because you have to do more normals and specials to even keep the combo going let alone get into reasonable grab stance to do what he's focused around right now considering it's not like getting a grab/command grab was made any easier in his changes.

Basically all I'm saying is that is that I don't find it enjoyable to have to do a lot of harder work with Beowulf only to have them regain the majority of their health if I give them any chances to get a hit on me or if they mash into a safe DHC because at least when Beowulfs damage was "crazy" in retail the red health was manageable and I felt like I did more when they got out.
 
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Could beo's trash can snap out be made to remove some red health? That would adress alcoholic robots issue and actually see the move get used. Maybe the hype version of the trash can removes some red health or something. Since trash can uses a P and K button any extra P or K could be used to make it the hype version. So 3 buttons ppk or kkp.
 
Hammerschmidt said:
Big Band's parries

They're fine. They may be a little better than they need to be though.

After getting the initial parry, it's too easy to keep parrying, since it seems like a lot of the time you can keep mashing forward without any specific timing. This is good for moves like H Beam but not so good for most other multihitting moves or for common strings like Parasoul j.lp j.hp.

After that, I don't think Big Band needs to be able to down parry projectiles while he is on the ground. He can do d-f to increase the parry window to like 40 frames or something which is a lot of time. I'd keep being able to down parry in the air, since I think it helps when trying to advance forward by jumping, since if you're sloppy with your jump inputs (like I am and I assume a lot of people are) you can jump forward and still be able to parry.

I'm not arguing that these two things should be removed, but at the same time I wouldn't be heartbroken if they were. Most of these opinions are based off of lab work so I may be off-base.

That said, there's still one more improvement I think could be made to parry. While parrying Inferno Brigade and Argus and other moves that don't cause parry hitstop, if you mash forward and mash a button at the same time, the button won't come out. I'd like to be able to cancel parries at my peril, instead of not having a choice about it.
 
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I don't know if this is a glitch or not maybe more of an inconvenience but for parasoul using j.lp if you have a tear just under an opponent and you hit the opponent before the tear gets hit the tear won't explode even if the j.lp animation is still out. If the opponent and tear are hit in about the same frame everything works as normal.

I figured this happens cause hit boxes disappear on hit. can hit boxes be made to not disappear for the tears? This happens with j.hp sometimes too but not as often. I can't get any other detonation normals to do this but that's probably because they don't linger as long as j.lp/hp.
 
I don't actually mind EX grabs doing red damage as if they're regular hits, i.e. dealing 2/3 their damage to red health. I probably mind his snap dealing red health because solo benefits even further.
(Though as far as red health goes, remember that Ultimate Showstopper is 4800 and ENTIRELY red health.)
I also don't mind in-super Canis Major Press giving knockdown, after more testing.

There are LOTS of ways to get hype provided you have a level to start with. EX Chair Dance midstage, and chairless c.HP xx pick up chair, both allow a full taunt afterward that's unpunishable. Chairless c.HP xx pick up lets you do [s.LP] for a level and still OTG. And you now get that single hype level off any grab ender.
He can do more damage now than he could in Retail if he has hype, not to mention ridiculous corner carry (EX Chair Dance -> Arm) and the amount of damage he lost on standard combos asymptotically approaches 650 if every hit was his most-nerfed hit.

Yeah, I've caught up this thread. I also have my own design goals, though, and in general there's a limited amount of time before I have to ship this patch (which is probably a lot shorter than you think) so I have to make choices that I'm pretty confident won't lead to Press-crossup-Press-crossup forever when people master the character because that's mad boring.

Also about purple Poison:
I fixed it up a bit, so Lv1 and Lv3 do nearly the same damage as before at 1.0. 1v3 and 3v1 will be staying uh, fixed, because trio getting 5k for Lv3 poison on solos is dumb. And Lv2 still does less than in Retail, because in Retail Lv1->2 gives you 953 extra damage, but Lv2->3 gives you 483 extra. So I redistributed it, Lv2 now gives you +665 and Lv3 gives you +775, which makes the Lv3 worth going for instead of not, especially because Lv3 is much harder to build in a combo.

There'll be another build sometime tonight, I hope.

Tank said:
can hit boxes be made to not disappear for the tears?
Whether I agree with it or not this would be a fundamental engine change requiring a lot of work, so not at this point, no way.
 
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Mike_Z said:
I don't actually mind EX grabs doing red damage as if they're regular hits, i.e. dealing 2/3 their damage to red health. I probably mind his snap dealing red health because solo benefits even further.

I also don't mind in-super Canis Major Press giving knockdown, after more testing.

He can do more damage now than he could in Retail if he has hype, not to mention ridiculous corner carry (EX Chair Dance -> Arm)

regular red damage on Ex-->That could help honestly to make it feel like I'm actually hurting their team.

In super canis major --> I know this idea makes a few beowulf players happy lol

Corner carry ex -> Does that actually carry more than anything else into arm? I'm not seeing it personally in testing, doing ex chair into arm or just ending with punches into arm seem to land us in roughly the same spot from full screen. Or am I just not doing it properly??

Also I thought you said you could pick up off ex chairdance in the corner without using otg, but the only thing fast enough seems to be super which isn't really a pick up, again I could just be doing it wrong.
 
SNAP!!!
I really feel the snap range is very unfair to some characters.
You have characters like Valentine whose snap hits very high and very far.
And then you have characters like Painwheel whose snap hits super low and misses air target soooooo often.
-PLEASE make Painwheel, Peacock, Eliza, Filia and Fukua's snap range HIGHER so they can do double snap more reliably- (especially Painwheel)
 
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Could Parasoul's taunt allow her to recover faster from aerial Sniper super hit? Like old times?
 
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Mike_Z said:
Chairless c.HP xx pick up lets you do [s.LP] for a level and still OTG.
This doesn't work on heavies to build a full hype (If you have a partial hype sure but not from none) but yes. Albeit I'm somewhat on and off about the actual usefullness of using your hype to pick up the chair just to use your otg to build that hype back that you used. Unless you just really really want your chair at that moment I don't see why not just conserve your otg and just hit them as they're falling. The other uses of C.H canceling I'm excited for. Even if I got a bit too overzealous when you originally said "Special canceling armored moves" Thinking you could use hype to cancel into blitzer but oh well.
 
Minor issue: the code for palette 10 worked when I used it before Eliza's release (PSN).
Afterwards I tried it a second time, and it wouldn't unlock #10 for her, Beo & Robo. Not sure why a code was used for unlocking colors (I'd prefer a character's tutorial, but it's cool).

I'm not really interested in more colors to buy besides those #10s & have an idea (if it's not too much work).
Maybe #10 can get unlocked for everyone with the upcoming console patch. Automatically or by doing something. Thanks for considering it.
 
Can we get an option to choose which direction on the stick calls which assist? Currently right stick up = assist 1 and right stick down = assist 2. What I'm asking for is the ability and option to just change it to right stick up = assist 2 And right stick down = assist 1. Or maybe just customize which assist button combination ties to each direction on the stick.
 
HEADLESS FORTUNE PLAYERS
In honor of Halloween, it's time for you to become Headless Fortune Tellers (hee hee), and tell me what you think of moving the head around. We've had long enough for useful opinions to form, so:
- Is it useful? (Is it cute? It's hella cute.)
- Does it ruin things you already did to the point of not being all that useful?
- Would you like to try one of these alternatives instead?
-- QCB+hold LP or MP, allow you to press Fwd to have the head run away from her as long as Fortune is in that pose. (The simplest, but also means the body is stuck.)
-- Hold HP to move the head same as now, release to do an attack. Release while holding straight Down only, to not attack. (Or any U/UF/UB? but I figure that's less useful.)
-- The head always moves when you press any F or B direction; don't have to hold HP. (Same as Little Eddie, so you can crouch to move just the head but you can't move just the body.)
-- The head always moves when you press DF or DB, but not with F/UF or B/UB; don't have to hold HP. (Crouch to move the head, stand to move the body. This one would be my vote.)

HASJ said:
Could Parasoul's taunt allow her to recover faster from aerial Sniper super hit? Like old times?
Are people still not able to figure out which things I'm just not gonna do? :^P

BigEffinDud said:
Can we get an option to choose which direction on the stick calls which assist? Currently right stick up = assist 1 and right stick down = assist 2. What I'm asking for is the ability and option to just change it to right stick up = assist 2 And right stick down = assist 1. Or maybe just customize which assist button combination ties to each direction on the stick.
Too difficult to change it now, sorry. I'd like to since it's a good request, but it's much too late for something that risky. :^S
(Code changes are RISKY, scripting changes are less risky.)

AlcoholicRobot said:
This doesn't work on heavies to build a full hype (If you have a partial hype sure but not from none) but yes.
But c.HP xx pickup, safe taunt DOES work on everyone, which was my point. I only mentioned the other thing as "something which exists". Thanks for nitpicking.

AlcoholicRobot said:
Even if I got a bit too overzealous when you originally said "Special canceling armored moves" Thinking you could use hype to cancel into blitzer but oh well.
Yeah, that's because I didn't end up keeping that. I tried it. It allowed a lot of things I don't want him to do, like start safe pressure from 2/3 of a screen away with c.HK to Blitzer.
It also seemed like it should be QCT+KK, which is a very nonstandard command for not-a-super.
 
I don't see a reasoning for cr lp pw armor to be 4f instead of 3f. Accidentally getting 1f slower armor because I was down backing and got cr lp instead of st lp is : ( . If it's just because "one of them has to be the fastest" then I guess it's alright.

Another thing I was wondering could be fixed was with the new flight frames on nails, her zoning patterns got a little slowed down as well compared to retail. Is there any way to reduce the startup of lvl 1 nails coming out by a few frames or something to bring it back closer to how fly cancel nails felt/worked before?

And on a note for fukua. I'm not happy about the new mk shadow change. I think if she's going to get these new setups at max undizzy solo, there should be more of a cost than a little life. It's almost back to square one, because eventually people are going to be doing these setups as commonly as the old mk vortex.

The risk reward seems really strong for what little you pay for a safe meaty into more mixup into more pressure if blocked. On top of that if it hits you shave off a bunch of life then get to do another crazy setup after. If she still has teammates she gets to layer assist in as well. If something like a shadow is called and held in a combo, maybe it could cost more life or some meter. Or just not give setup after mk shadow to her. She's already such a solid character, I don't see why she needs more tools on top of everything else she got.
 
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With Cerebella, if I hold downback and then do a quarter circle (so, [1}236) with assist I get one of the tumble moves when I wanted lnl+assist. Any way to do this without making doing Battle Butt+assist harder to do? It usually happens after I hit c.mk or something mid combo.

Also, a little related, doing [4]6+assist gets Tumble move and assist, but [4], assist, 6 gets assist+run. I also can't replicate it, but there are a lotta times I do [4/1]236+grab and get Pummel Horse instead of Diamond Drop. Idk why it happens, but it ruins a lot when it happens.

Also also, Big Band isn't stationary when he does lvl 3, which means you can push him around mid-lvl 3, especially if he hits the assist. You can push him to the point where his back is to the podiums that he summoned while they're going off. I also only did it once, but you can make it so you're behind his pushable point when he lvl 3's while he hits you, so he drags you and himself with the lvl 3 across the entire screen. I'm going to be abusing this for funny times, but thought I'd mention it.
 
Zidiane said:
With Cerebella, if I hold downback and then do a quarter circle (so, [1}236) with assist I get one of the tumble moves when I wanted lnl+assist. Any way to do this without making doing Battle Butt+assist harder to do? It usually happens after I hit c.mk or something mid combo.

Also, a little related, doing [4]6+assist gets Tumble move and assist, but [4], assist, 6 gets assist+run. I also can't replicate it, but there are a lotta times I do [4/1]236+grab and get Pummel Horse instead of Diamond Drop. Idk why it happens, but it ruins a lot when it happens.

Also also, Big Band isn't stationary when he does lvl 3, which means you can push him around mid-lvl 3, especially if he hits the assist. You can push him to the point where his back is to the podiums that he summoned while they're going off. I also only did it once, but you can make it so you're behind his pushable point when he lvl 3's while he hits you, so he drags you and himself with the lvl 3 across the entire screen. I'm going to be abusing this for funny times, but thought I'd mention it.
can you record these BB lvl 3 situations?
 
WarpedEcho said:
I don't see a reasoning for cr lp pw armor to be 4f instead of 3f.
Crouch vs stand block for the input if you are doing it during pressure.

Zidiane said:
With Cerebella, if I hold downback and then do a quarter circle (so, [1}236) with assist I get one of the tumble moves when I wanted lnl+assist. Any way to do this without making doing Battle Butt+assist harder to do? It usually happens after I hit c.mk or something mid combo.
(emphasis mine)
There is not, given the bold part.
You using 2MK instead of 1MK would solve that problem entirely without me having to do anything to the game, though. Or (assist), QCT+(release HP).
[edit]
Actually, there might be, I can make LnL higher priority than Run, which would mean QCT+assist gives LnL but B,F+assist without a QCT gives LnL. ?

WarpedEcho said:
Another thing I was wondering could be fixed was with the new flight frames on nails, her zoning patterns got a little slowed down as well compared to retail. Is there any way to reduce the startup of lvl 1 nails coming out by a few frames or something to bring it back closer to how fly cancel nails felt/worked before?
Lv1? The single shot?

WarpedEcho said:
I'm not happy
What else is new? :^P

WarpedEcho said:
I think if she's going to get these new setups at max undizzy solo, there should be more of a cost than a little life. It's almost back to square one, because eventually people are going to be doing these setups as commonly as the old mk vortex.
Sure, but the fix for that is making M Shadow place them in a different combo stage, which it currently doesn't.
The old M Shadow reset allowed all options to be covered and allowed BOTH L and H shadows to be used as part of the reset. You did it back into itself with all your tools available again. The new M Shadow things only allow one of L/H shadows - since you used one as part of the reset you can only use the other one as the setup, which makes it much worse if you pay attention.

WarpedEcho said:
The risk reward seems really strong
[snip]
She's already such a solid character, I don't see why she needs more tools on top of everything else she got.
Remember how she lost old M shadow at neutral and old L shadow breaking armor? And got multiple damage nerfs, along with shadows scaling to 50%? And you can hit shadows now, and they go away if she's hit or blocks? And her advantage off divekick things was reduced? Don't look at things you dislike in a vacuum* . She's as good as before once she hits you, but she's worse without having done that.

* I say for the billionth time.
 
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cloudKing211 said:
can you record these BB lvl 3 situations?
Mike_Z said:
Actually, there might be, I can make LnL higher priority than Run, which would mean QCT+assist gives LnL but B,F+assist without a QCT gives LnL. ?
If it would at all effect someone's ability to get tumble run move+assist stuff, don't sweat it. A lot more people use that than people who are having my issue.
 
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I like the way the head moves right now but I also like this idea "Hold HP to move the head same as now, release to do an attack. Release while holding straight Down only, to not attack." I don't see too many problems with it and I guess it means the head can do nothing at all no matter how long I held the button. ('cause that's how works now right? hold it short and the head will still do something but hold it longer and you have to double tap)

But the way it is now I've never really had an issue having the head attack after moving it.
 
Mike_Z said:
- Is it useful? (Is it cute? It's hella cute.)
The main use I have for it is adjusting the position of the head during a throw, didn't really find anything particularly useful
- Does it ruin things you already did to the point of not being all that useful?
Besides making rekka loops a bit "harder" it doesn't really affect anything I do.

-- Hold HP to move the head same as now, release to do an attack. Release while holding straight Down only, to not attack.
I like being able to negative edge the head, but I also like being able to release the button and not have an attack come out, this sounds like a good way to achieve both. Also would make rekka loops the same as they were before.
 
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I think the way fortune's head moves right now is the way I'd like it to be. I would really like to not have the proposed alternatives for the same reason that makes me a bad person to answer the questions though since I'd like fortune to stay away from being more like a puppet character. I like that holding and releasing doesn't give me an attack anymore, there have been times I wanted to avoid hitting the head for positioning on incoming so I held, but then headbutt would happen and mess it up, that doesn't happen anymore so I'm happy about that.
An alternate version of head recall sounds cool but I don't feel like it would be much more useful than walking normally or using zoom, and would really mess me up for a while.

However, lately I've been running into issues where I want to do headbutt, then block or move forward, so I'll do something like 5hp 5hp 4/6, then instead of headbutt I get zoom.
 
WarpedEcho said:
Yes
Probably not, if I make it any faster it's either a 1f reset off s.HP or combos. She got buffed in other areas.

Fizzxwizz said:
An alternate version of head recall sounds cool but I don't feel like it would be much more useful than walking normally or using zoom
To be clear, that's proposed INSTEAD of walking as it is now.
 
Could ground el gato have the hitbox extended to the ground so that it doesn't whiff on the head as often in the corner? As it is right now it only works on some characters and sometimes depends on whether they are blocking or not because of the collision boxes.

both from c.hk(1) > el gato as close to the corner as possible
e985d1e434.jpg
6105f20a7f.jpg


On bella it's the opposite, connects on hit but if she blocks it whiffs

Moving the collision box back a little should work too.
 
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While we're mentioning hitboxes, can I bring up Bella's c.mp again?
 
I perfectly like the way the head moves now. Holding HP for 22f or longer to not have the head do something feels really good to me. There have been a few combos I've been trying to implement it where I'd move the head forward and past the opponent during... how to best word this... a combo where I'm slowing down my hits, but still comboing, so that the head can have access to her head moves from the other side of their point character. This way, I can use sneeze and zoom to knock the opponent in different directions for stuff, when otherwise, you'd probably need to side switch in order to sandwich them between Fortune and her head. And I don't always want that, since their side might be closer to the corner, and if I do side-switch for the purpose of the sandwiching, I'll just be cornering myself if they get out of my pressure.

Also being able to convert anywhere off of ground throw for no meter is really nice. I'm sorry for Fizz, but my rekka combos and pressure remain with the same timing. Though it is a bit jarring trying to walk the head and then trying to headbutt instead of zooming, but I'll adapt.

I want to keep the current way for moving the head, I prefer it over the other alternatives. As the puppet half of the character, I think it's up to the player to always keep in mind on how to move and use the head, and I think having to hold HP is a good way to have the idea always in their mind.

Please don't forget about laser super vs Lenny...

Edit: Oh uhh... about the Gato thing in the corner with the head. I just simply buffered HP to headbutt during the situations where it would whiff her head. I'm willing to try a change to it though since I can just negative edge into double tap HP anyway.
 
Zidiane said:
While we're mentioning hitboxes, can I bring up Bella's c.mp again?
Sure! But I'll just mention, AGAIN, that the alternative is me making it never work as OTG, which is a very quick script change, rather than drastically extending the hitbox and drastically changing how it functions.
 
Hammerschmidt said:
Parries

The beta push forward on the ground is a bit hilarious, you will end up right next to Robo after parrying the laser super at fullscreen, and counter. The velocity you get from air parries seems a bit more natural. But then again you deserve a reward for something so skilled.

Mike_Z said:
Yeah, I've caught up this thread. I also have my own design goals, though, and in general there's a limited amount of time before I have to ship this patch (which is probably a lot shorter than you think)
This makes me kinda anxious. I wish you had more time on this last pivotal patch to a masterpiece. Mace Windu's ground stab amirite?

As a useless side note I miss the old poison behavior. I just really like that thing where some attacks are completely different and unique because of the way they deal damage to you. Or certain characters have different matchups because of the way they take damage. (jabbing people over and over when they are at low health in GG, because it kills them faster.). I even got sad when they removed a few of the 8+ types of damage and 10+ types of armor in Dota 2, even though it served to make the game less of a clusterfuck for beginners and veterans alike. But, since it's the only attack that deals "% of max" damage, it makes sense to change it.
 
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@PME
What laser vs Lenny thing? Lenny gets pushed by Cannon now...

@Cheesedragon
You're misremembering, Beta parry doesn't move you that much farther for supers:
laser cannon parry.png

And yeah, a trio getting 5k for a Lv3 poison on a solo is...no.
 
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I know not many people have mentioned this, but is there a reason doubles level 5 got the most recent changes it did?

I understand the bombs disappearing so you can punish easier, but why does she recover much slower and take damage for using it? Its reward was already lowered to match other level 5s.
 
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About Headless Fortune's head moving question, I still don't really know how much I like the other alternatives since I'd maybe need a while to think about them, but what I can say is that I do really like how the head is now and it feels ideal to me personally.
 
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