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Sure! But I'll just mention, AGAIN, that the alternative is me making it never work as OTG, which is a very quick script change, rather than drastically extending the hitbox and drastically changing how it functions.
I actually haven't seen you post in this thread since I brought it up two months ago, so I never saw you address it the first time(s), but ok.
@PME
What laser vs Lenny thing? Lenny gets pushed by Cannon now...
Woops! Didn't see it in the patch notes, sorry. But thank you! I was recently testing stuff with Lenny after finding that out, and it's weird to me how Lenny is almost "looking" for a point character to stick to.
have a bunch of desynced replays from a set last night, strangely it seemed to resync up midway through and then desync again, idk if posting it will help
Fukua feels like that off of some moves. They are either above the snap or below the snap and if you have 2 different weight characters, it sometimes misses one if they are not on the ground
Fukua AND Filia feels like that off of some moves. They are either above the snap or below the snap and if you have 2 different weight characters, it sometimes misses one if they are not on the ground
I think this might be a new bug?
Eliza did Sekhmet super so I could DHC into Sniper, it didn't come out, Parasoul blocked Sekhmet and called H.Theonite Beam.
Sekhmet got hit with the lasers in mid-air, died and stood there.
Couldn't move but Parasoul could. Sekhmet was invulnerable.
Parasoul's.. air hurtbox where she folds up in two is surprisingly thin IIRC. I was talking to Morahan once and apparently doing
whatever > charged liver mortis into excellabella assist > charge stance > combo
The excella will whiff on Para more often than not when it does not on anyone else because of the way she folds in two from being hit by liver.
It's a case of 'everyone else works fine, Para is strangely hard to time'
- Headbutt is now D+[release HP], and Zoom is returned to F/B+[release HP], but releasing HP with the stick at neutral will not do an attack. Maybe this solution works better for being able to walk the head around and still get instant attacks on button release, but I do want feedback! HEADLESS PLAYERS?!
and probably
- FINALLY fixed certain types of delayed setups that are humanly unblockable (Peacock okizeme meaty slide + L George + Lv3 item drop, for example). After any blocked high or low hit, further high/low hits from any different sprite are defended against for 18f even after hitstop, and this period is extended by further hitstop from new hits that occur during it. The exception is 2 hits in a row from the point character, like a c.LK->c.MK or j.LP->j.LK, where you must block both hits correctly. Any combination of point-then-[projectile or assist], or projectiles and assists together without any point character hits, is protected against.
This change means the minimum possible blockswitch window for a regular high low set up went from 6F minimum (Potentially 5F if you're unlucky with frame skip? Not sure how that changes inputs) > 18F.
If you got hit mid in between a high and a low, which was possible from Peacock cHP > L George > Level 3 Item, the mid hit (L George) would actually remove the unblockable protection protection because it's a new hit, making it a 2F block switch if perfectly timed.
Although the wiki simply says that unblockable protection is "being able to switch during hitstop" it doesn't list that if the hitstop on a move is lower than 6F, it gets bumped up to 6F for the purposes of unblockable protection. [Hence Painwheels jHK which was 2F hitstop behaves like 6F when used in a high low setup. Note: This is not documented anywhere and nobody knew about this]
One other thing is that it says "defended against for 18f even after hitstop".
It just says "defended" so maybe that means you don't even have to switch your blocking? I'd love to test it but no time now.
That being said, 6F > 18F is h*cking massive for a lot of teams.
Feel free to hop in and correct me if I got something wrong Mike.
-
I'm really sad the Beat Extend 'launch across the entire stage on trade' thing was removed I thought it had a lot of character : (
Since hitbox things were discussed, I thought I might bring back up how as Ms Fortune HP, L Fiber will whiff vs Cerebella standing and Squigly crouching midscreen even if done from point blank. Would it be possible for something to be done to allow the L Fiber to connect vs them at point blank? This messes up a few combos vs them and HCH punishes that start with HP, L Fiber.
(Also, while I haven't gotten a chance to test the new headless movement, I thought I'd say that I think that the old head movement was pretty good).
Not sure if this is intentional or not, but I don't see it mentioned in the patch notes, so...
As you see, the first Moonsault pickup gave me 3 pummels, while the second only gave me 1. This appears to happen randomly; I've tried using different timings for the pickups, but there was no difference between them. I swear I've gotten 2 pummels before as well, which were both considered "in-super" (meaning the double headbutts). Is there an explanation for why this happens?
The block switch change "fixes" a lot of things I have gripes with, but I really don't think this is the way to go about it. Knee-jerk reaction is disliking that fuzzies and high/lows enabled by assists would be broken.
. After any blocked high or low hit, further high/low hits from any different sprite are defended against for 18f even after hitstop, and this period is extended by further hitstop from new hits that occur during it. The exception is 2 hits in a row from the point character, like a c.LK->c.MK or j.LP->j.LK, where you must block both hits correctly. Any combination of point-then-[projectile or assist], or projectiles and assists together without any point character hits, is protected against.
I don't like this for a few reasons, but before I go on, I got a few questions first for the experts in data stuff.
1. Does this mean they are in autoblock mode for 18 frames once there is a string that starts with a high/low and it continues for every hit? So technically you can have an infinite high low string with assists if done right and it will autoblock forever?
2. Is there a way to test my high low resets if it's over 18 frames? So I know which resets to drop and which I could keep? For example, Parasouls f. lp cr. mk... If they block the overhead lp, does it autoblock the cr. mk or is that link 18f apart?
3. Wasn't this already in place but even better with pushblock? Can't we encourage people to push block the first hit rather than giving them an autoblock for this?
---------
Off topic, Eliza ground hk grab - May we make this so it throws opponent always toward Eliza? There are some resets/situations where he throws the opponent away from Eilza sorta making that move useless in those situations.
1. Does this mean they are in autoblock mode for 18 frames once there is a string that starts with a high/low and it continues for every hit? So technically you can have an infinite high low string with assists if done right and it will autoblock forever?
2. Is there a way to test my high low resets if it's over 18 frames? So I know which resets to drop and which I could keep? For example, Parasouls f. lp cr. mk... If they block the overhead lp, does it autoblock the cr. mk or is that link 18f apart?
This is not applied for point only strings, only for point -> assist, such as Parasoul 6LP call Fukua 2MK for example, or the other way.
18 frames of absolute guard is almost an order of magnitude too high imo.
This is not applied for point only strings, only for point -> assist, such as Parasoul 6LP call Fukua 2MK for example, or the other way.
18 frames of absolute guard is almost an order of magnitude too high imo.
So different sprite means a different person hitting them? So either an assist or a helper of the point? Makes it a little better then. That answers question 1. Thanks
This change in my opinion is detrimental to how squigly gets out of the corner and overall meter trades with a lot of other characters.
Level 3 is the only reliable reversal that squigly has in her kit. It's gotten her out of the corner and as a level 3, shouldnt be treated with qualities similar to a level 1.
I do agree its lockdown potential is magnificent, but now that supers or snackbacks remove it, nothings going to stop far away players from doing literally any level 1 super to punish, and now squigly has a much harder time in the corner since assists can now be used to bait the level 3 on wakeup or on a combo drop. Im sure if a big band drops the combo in the air squigly's level 3 can trade with it which means most characters can now get rid of her level 3, which is not invincible like other level 3's but still punishable.
I feel just making the ball go away if squigly DIES is fair enough, since having her level 3 be wasted away so easily gives up it's viability of a neutral tool, which squigly is supposed to be the master of. Hell, just go back on damage buff we gave her level 3 a little while back because this change is almost crippling.
This is a squigly level 3, a character who relies on meter for chargeless conversions and without charges has little damage (Without the use of resets)
The use of meter to get needed damage and a moment to react at the cost of crippled effectiveness for a short time (Or the rest of the match if you play squigly anchor) is completely worth it
Squigly has all her tools and setups in her level 1's. SBO is especially strong in that regard as a neutral tool, combo ender, and moment of time given for squigly to get charges. Squigly's level 3 is usually squigly's last character kill move, or last ditch reversal, for a character considered weaker than others, letting a move that functioned as a either a neutral tool or last ditch reversal be traded with easily is counter intuitive to the way squigly is meant to be played.
TL:DR : Level 3 is being treated more like normal level 3s. Just make it go away if squigly dies.
View attachment 13993
TL:DR : Level 3 is being treated more like normal level 3s. Just make it go away if squigly dies.
I mean, I don't know about others, but you don't think a level 3 that stays on the screen and tracks the opponent forever until it connects is a little much?
View attachment 13993Level 3 is the only reliable reversal that squigly has in her kit. It's gotten her out of the corner and as a level 3, shouldnt be treated with qualities similar to a level 1.
SHE HAS A LEVEL 1 SUPER WITH 45 FRAMES OF COMPLETE INVULN THAT YOU HAVE TO JUMP OUT OF OR GET COMBOED WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
Yeah, if you jump, which you can do on reaction for most cases
you punish squigly for the most easy counter hit damage combo you could do.
As a reversal, Daisy pusher is good in some cases since mashing it works to get an opponent off their feet. But anyone with a brain could spend meter to stall the SBO with either a DP, several DHC's, or just jumping on reaction. Calling an assist on squigly and moving back gets rid of that as a an option.
And yes, a giant hitbox that tracks the opponent forever is strong, But for what it actually does to the match,
That giant hitbox for most cases is gonna be used up the first time it makes contact, its not several hitboxes infinitely lasting to just preserve a win. No one is using level 3 super arbitrarily as a neutral tool. Its squigly's safe reversal. A person who blocks it can still PBGC the end of it, or pushblock squigly.
If your getting someone immediately who blocks, you have time for probably one high low mixup, which for 3 meter is a lot for squigly.
Wait, so is pin supposed to be only off of EX press now?
Hard knockdown can come from an ex canis major press or during any airwulf ex sequence that doesnt have grendel killa (since it takes you out of the super) and you end in canis major. The major intent was that you can avoid spending hype if you just airwulf into canis major immediately, no ex required, to get a hard knockdown.
OKAY YEAH everyone hates this Fortune test. Well, that's why we test stuff! :^)
> blocking stuff
Yes, 18f is too high, but I wanted to put this build out because of other changes, the next version will probably make people happier.
OH HEY I bet I didn't set that number anywhere. HA. Let me fix that.
The explanation right NOW would probably be "you have as many pummels left as you had the last time you ended a grab mode", which explains why you only get one the 2nd time there.
it's weird to me how Lenny is almost "looking" for a point character to stick to.
Lenny is, in fact, looking for a point character to stick to - he moves much farther on hits that push him toward the enemy, and much less on hits that push him away from them.
Wait, so is pin supposed to be only off of EX press now?
Yes. It even says so. However, the damage check is much more reliable (i.e. ignores combo damage scaling hahaha) and an EX only requires one level of hype to use, instead of 3.
2. Is there a way to test my high low resets if it's over 18 frames? So I know which resets to drop and which I could keep? For example, Parasouls f. lp cr. mk... If they block the overhead lp, does it autoblock the cr. mk or is that link 18f apart?
Point character hits in a row will never be protected, so it doesn't matter. Parasoul herself doing any mixups must be blocked correctly.
3. Wasn't this already in place but even better with pushblock? Can't we encourage people to push block the first hit rather than giving them an autoblock for this?
There are currently setups that you can't block unless you can pushblock on the frame you're touched and immediately switch block that frame.
Off topic, Eliza ground hk grab - May we make this so it throws opponent always toward Eliza? There are some resets/situations where he throws the opponent away from Eilza sorta making that move useless in those situations.
Provide a video or replay (preferably replay) please!
Certainly, it is not a buff.
However, before, no character in the entire game could get rid of the super except Cerebella, and then only if left alone to reflect it forever.
If the other character is within chip-death range - which is 1200 for this super - and she does it, anywhere, at any time, they are dead. She can run at them and get punched, and the super will not only save her but probably let her combo off it. That's pretty unfair, and isn't really affected if Squigly dies.
a character who relies on meter for chargeless conversions and without charges has little damage (Without the use of resets)
Neither of these things is true. She can do 6k for no charge and no meter with basic combos, that's about normal.
And even if they were true, getting one stance charged is pretty easy after one Chord -> Mortis.
The use of meter to get needed damage and a moment to react at the cost of crippled effectiveness for a short time (Or the rest of the match if you play squigly anchor) is completely worth it
Squigly's level 3 is usually squigly's last character kill move
That's part of the problem, though.
You still have plenty of setups for it (heck, sweep xx Lv3 is totally safe, and the aforementioned Chord->Mortis xx Lv3 is not only safe but gives you okizeme), you just don't get to throw it out any old time and be guaranteed safe. I don't have any problem with that.
"Only when she dies" is not a good condition, because if it's down to the last character on both teams, that's equivalent to "never". If you can provide an acceptable suggestion that actually gives the other team a way to get rid of it, I'd be happy to listen. You're used to having a tool you can use almost without thought, and defending it being that way by listing situations in which it SHOULD have gotten you killed instead.
For what it's worth, after actually doing research into what she can REALLY do with it if it never goes away, like run in Arpeggio x2 while they are blocking it and be completely safe from reversals, my FIRST thought was "it goes away any time she is hit, or thrown, even if she techs it". Requiring the opponent to spend meter is a huge step down from that.
I'll tell you a designer secret: the fact that this change bothers you so much, and particularly what your validations are, means it was probably justified. (^.^)
"Post-flash reactable" means jack shit if you're doing it as a reversal. They have 1f to jump, and if they're doing anything else, they have to find a way to spam invuln frames for a ludicrously long amount of time.
"Loses to DHCs" means that your opponent has to spend 2 meters to beat your 1. How is that not an upside? Can you imagine a super that lost without the opponent spending meter?
Yes. It even says so. However, the damage check is much more reliable (i.e. ignores combo damage scaling hahaha) and an EX only requires one level of hype to use, instead of 3.
Excuse me? Is this supposed to be some sort of vague threat? It comes off like your justification for us appreciating a nerf is that you didn't nerf it harder.
requiring a stance charge does mean it's not 100% reliable, but that's besides the point. daisy pusher is not, in fact, a great reversal. It's a good tool, but you need to be incredibly careful about when you use it defensively. Realistically you need to be doing PBGC to get it and even then it can be iffy vs certain characters.
Back on topic, i'm still messing with it, but I'm starting to feel like Squigly's level 3 is just a 3 meter Catellites that can be used as a DP as well. I feel like it needs... something. I'm just not sure what. I'm fine with the idea of you not being able to just jam it out and be guarunteed to be safe. It just feels really lackluster. Maybe being able to control the angle of release so it's a little easier to catch someone if you're using it as a reversal? Maybe just a slight damage tweek? Hell, maybe gives you a free stance charge ala Val's level 3? I'm just spitballing ideas.
The new zoom input makes it very difficult to do some of her more complex combos in the corner. I kept buffering and getting sneeze. You generally have to input slide with link timing and this makes that very difficult to do. It's really hard to get snappy slide inputs now when the head is already where you need it to be (like in a combo).
Honestly, I would LOVE if zoom was just QCF + FP and I think with the other change it would be perfect. Having it mapped to that would avoid it eating inputs from other things I feel like. It's just hard to input slide in combos with the charge + release timing as is.
With how it was before (the last experiment head change), I was able to do my tougher corner combos by just double tapping HP so it wasn't held down. I like the way head movement works better NOW, but I like slide WORSE. QCF + FP for zoom would be perfect in my opinion. With the way zoom works now, using it in combos is super awkward if you're trying to do stuff like:
Can we pin off Moonsault if we have three levels of hype?
I'm just not seeing why we shouldn't since you can spend 2 for a pick up and just EX press immediately and pin if you have three levels, it would just look better.
> blocking stuff
Yes, 18f is too high, but I wanted to put this build out because of other changes, the next version will probably make people happier.
the thing im most curious about is why this change is necessary when absolute guard lets you do a similar thing if you can block the first hit. switching in 2f i absolutely understand since that's extremely difficult to execute even with absolute guard, but is there a reason to extend it beyond the reasonable window it would take a human to input that? ive harped a bit on this on twitter but i really appreciate that you can also specifically aim to beat people trying to use absolute guard by either varying your timing or going for the throw before an outside high/low/etc would connect
"Post-flash reactable" means jack shit if you're doing it as a reversal. They have 1f to jump, and if they're doing anything else, they have to find a way to spam invuln frames for a ludicrously long amount of time.
"Loses to DHCs" means that your opponent has to spend 2 meters to beat your 1. How is that not an upside? Can you imagine a super that lost without the opponent spending meter?
Why are you so mad about a very situational reversal tool? All three of your characters have at least one way of getting out of it after it catches you committing to a normal. This is to say that if I catch you with Daisy Pusher doing Double c.lk, then I lose that exchange. So if your definition of "spam invuln frames for a ludicrously long amount of time" is to do L Bomber on reaction then that is a personal problem.
Loses to DHCs is not an upside because you are fucking getting punished for "catching" them with a reversal.
Why are you so mad about a very situational reversal tool? All three of your characters have at least one way of getting out of it after it catches you committing to a normal. This is to say that if I catch you with Daisy Pusher doing Double c.lk, then I lose that exchange. So if your definition of "spam invuln frames for a ludicrously long amount of time" is to do L Bomber on reaction then that is a personal problem.
Loses to DHCs is not an upside because you are fucking getting punished for "catching" them with a reversal.
I'm not mad. That's a really shitty thing to do. Don't do that.
I feel like "loses to DHCs" loses its luster when (A) there's an excess of meter expenditure and (B) when you could just as easily DHC to beat theirs.
Can you imagine a super that lost without the opponent spending meter?
I guess that would be Daisy Pusher.
H Fiber avoids it clean so you can punish
Painwheel can cancel anything into flight and punish.
L Bomber beats it clean and punishes.
Charged Squigly DP beats it clean and punishes.
L Updo avoids it, and she's + when she lands I think but at least safe.
That's just the meterless stuff when you do cLK.
If you're in the air you can do things like hairball, axe kick, bypass, h beam, cymbals.. etc as long as you're not 1px from landing.
H Fiber avoids it clean so you can punish
Painwheel can cancel anything into flight and punish.
L Bomber beats it clean and punishes.
Charged Squigly DP beats it clean and punishes.
L Updo avoids it, and she's + when she lands I think but at least safe.
That's just the meterless stuff when you do cLK.
If you're in the air you can do things like hairball, axe kick, bypass, h beam, cymbals.. etc as long as you're not 1px from landing.
I was mainly referring to most other supers in the game.
@Mike_Z
This unblockable change removes M Chair from the game. Roll it back.
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