Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[IsaVulpes]

Lower undizzy means lower combo damage which means potentially longer life time which leads to longer game length.

I don't think this is necessarily true.

Combos deal the vast majority of their damage at the start, then very little in the middle, and then potentially (depending on the character and meter) again a bunch at the ender with something like LLMMH Special Super DHC.

If you cut out some parts in the middle, combos will be notably shorter, while damage isn't actually decreased by *that* much, which could end up netting shorter(!) game length - as killing a character in 3-4 quick resets is significantly faster than killing it with a full combo into hard kd followed by a mixup into super DHC.

 

[fenster]

And while yeah, not having tournament winners doesn't mean anything too specific, having the good solo players i remember shifting to teams and also almost never having any solo in top 8's on the most competitive places feels like a good indication.

I can't speak for all solos who went to teams (which I guess is mostly, Zid, Khaos, and me?), but beyond the fact that I think a lot of top players could do well with Solos more than they'd admit, I know for me personally that I picked up other charcaters not because I felt Solos were weak or unviable, but 1. Matchup preferences for certain things and 2. just..fun preference? Like there are a lot of fun things in team play which you just don't get to use as a Solo so sometimes it feels more comfortable.

Also worth remembering that results REALLY REALLY are not indicative of everything. A lot of people said Eliza was S-Tier or one of the best character in 2nd Encore. And yet, there were no Eliza players in top 16 of combo breaker this year.

It's really frustrating to hear things like this when you still have Wing still taking Salty's regularly with Solo filia, or me in general sticking with Solo Parasoul a lot to this day. I think it's just due to preference rather than statements of viability or anything. Solos are perfectly fine.

 

[Mr Peck]

https://www.twitch.tv/game_realms/v/104916697?t=4h24m30s here's the top 8 of the most recent Salty, if you want more solo footage. Sorry for the non-beta tangent!

 

[Masqman]

Disclaimer: I'm in the no camp because I like long combos and bullying people, and long combos give me more reset points which I like.

I don't think affecting undizzy fixes the problem with overall kill/damage potential in those videos. Regardless of what the undizzy is, Ms. Fortune (assuming damage or something isn't changed with her) will still do 7.4-7.8 (2v3 like in the video that's like what 5.6 or something?) in two strings, Band has some of the highest damaging combos in general. Fortune now gets a knockdown not only from super but also from the second instance of H gato iirc. What I'm saying is that I do not think you should change a core mechanic for a problem that seems to me at least more of a character(s) problem than a "the game's internal mechanics are an issue" problem. I'm all fine with minor tuning in general regardless of at what time the game is in but especially in the late term of the game it seems drastic.

I'm more for encouraging desired play by unoptimizing something rather than taking something out. For instance you could have a harder scaling gradient and give the opponent even more meter which would achieve both "Living longer" and have the added benefit of getting more chances to play while still being able to kill. <I do not like this option by the way the game is fine IMO

About game health issue, honestly if the game is fun it doesn't matter how unbalanced or broken it is all that matters is whether the community likes it or not and are willing to have a larger community as a whole. Games live or die buy who plays them, not by how "fair" they are.
See: Just about every game to date being played

Spoiler

I'm more upset that I suggested a slight change to fukua command grab to be more in line with THE REST OF THE GAME and get "yelled" at for changing things just to change them.(which I wasn't) but nah let's just change an internal core mechanic that makes everyone essentially have to learn a new meta, with new combos an everything right at the end of the current dev cycle

 

[Triviality]

So i've thought about a solution and please feel free to shoot it down, but maybe this can work.

Create a new form of damage scaling based on the level of undizzy the player has. Combos that end with hard knockdown, like that Fortune video gllt showed us, would have immense scaling due to the damage already put on the player, meaning the next reset wouldnt be as fatal.

This also promotes doing resets early into the combo, but can still be the cause for more player interaction, without breaking the flow of combos as they already are.

Im no tech wizard, but maybe something like this can be a fair compromise?

Edit: reading that seems a bit confusing so heres an example

A full combo that ends with a reset would have say 50-75% damage scaling on the next hit and so on

A short string with a reset would have 0-10% Scaling on the next hit and so on

Edit #2: Im not good with numbers, but hey, its atleast something to think about

 

[IsaVulpes]

I don't necessarily dislike the general idea behind it, but it's a vastly more massive change than just removing a chain in the middle of everyone's combo somewhere and would DEFINITELY not work without a slew of adjustments

 

[Masqman]

So i've thought about a solution and please feel free to shoot it down, but maybe this can work.

Create a new form of damage scaling based on the level of undizzy the player has. Combos that end with hard knockdown, like that Fortune video gllt showed us, would have immense scaling due to the damage already put on the player, meaning the next reset wouldnt be as fatal.

This also promotes doing resets early into the combo, but can still be the cause for more player interaction, without breaking the flow of combos as they already are.

Im no tech wizard, but maybe something like this can be a fair compromise?

Are you saying if you start a combo at full undizzy then the combo is scaled? I would be more willing to try this than a overhaul on the undizzy system, that would also get rid of a lot of the effectiveness of loops. (but it would decrease how much you get with SQU unreactable + assist on someones wakeup which makes me sad). But that would basically mean doing a throw combo at max undizzy, and if you throw that would start out at like what 25% lol. Maybe they wouldn't affect normal throws cause those are techable and usually don't lead to death unless it's super optimal or undizzy stacked anyway.

I don't necessarily dislike the general idea behind it, but it's a vastly more massive change than just removing a chain in the middle of everyone's combo somewhere and would DEFINITELY not work without a slew of adjustments

So more scaling [EDIT] at the beginning of a full combo [/EDIT] is a bigger change than a core internal mechanic change? explain pls

 

[Triviality]

Its not a perfect idea, but its something that can get people thinking. This whole 150undizzy debate has divided a lot of us in ways I couldnt imagine

 

[Icky]

Its not a perfect idea, but its something that can get people thinking. This whole 150undizzy debate has divided a lot of us in ways I couldnt imagine

It was a very similar thing back when we were discussing if Mike should keep 350 undizzy or go down to 240.

 

[Masqman]

In the same vain from 350 to 240 eventually we could just keep going down the rabbit whole till we get SF or something.

Edit: tbf though 350 had TOD's and like 35 second combos. even the longest one I've seen is about 20 seconds max but that's with like Squigly SBO's and super high, combo video bounces etc. basic BNB's last about 10-13 seconds max. And considering that one reset death combos are with the highest damaging characters in the game I'm meh about it. not only that triv's suggestion would actually alleviate that problem especially if you add some time restrictions which would encourage people to play neutral instead of forcing them too.

 

[shuckle]

Did anyone have an opinion on combo length before Mike brought it up? I find it interesting that so many people are open to such major change this far into the game.

I don't want to give my opinion on 150 Undizzy since I suck at the game.

 

[Icky]

Did anyone have an opinion on combo length before Mike brought it up? I find it interesting that so many people are open to such major change this far into the game.

I don't want to give my opinion on 150 Undizzy since I suck at the game.

I'm sure everyone had opinions before Mike brought it up, but now that the discussion is on the table people are talking about.

 

[Triviality]

Did anyone have an opinion on combo length before Mike brought it up? I find it interesting that so many people are open to such major change this far into the game.

I don't want to give my opinion on 150 Undizzy since I suck at the game.

An opinion is never worthless to an open discussion. Anyone who plays SG is important to the community.

Plus you dont suck, you bopped my free ass

 

[Woofly]

I would like to try this.

 

[MegamanDS]

As far as which characters benefit from it:

1. Solos
2. Peacock
3. Robo
4. Big Band
5. Bella

This would also kill any combo with Sek.

I don't know how much time Mike has before Skullgirls has to ship physical copies. If they have the option to delay it and give themselves til Spring of 2017, I think it's doable.

 

[ShadeMoneh]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/805866641326149633

240 it is.

 

[Pickles]

ty mike

 

[Huffy]

I'm very sad but... it's for the best, I guess.

 

[Woofly]

Welp

 

[Clawsome Bombs]

I like Solos

 

[Zidiane]

I'm fine with it either way. There's nothing too wrong with 240, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in. Glad we're settled on a decision!

 

[keninblack]

TY MIKEZ XDDDDD LOL *GLOMPZZZ*

I CAN conTINue 2 pwn teh n00bz0rz rofl so KAWAAAAIIIII

Spoiler

 

[Clawsome Bombs]

Well now that THAT's out the way

*unrolls 30 mile long scroll*

Time to talk about Fortune buffs

 

[NCV]

Totally different from everything else and I (or someone else) may or may not have suggested this before but I man, would really really love if Parasoul's detonated tears negated fireballs.

 

[gllt]

Totally different from everything else and I (or someone else) may or may not have suggested this before but I man, would really really love if Parasoul's detonated tears negated fireballs.

I believe that got implemented?

 

[ninja-nutria]

While i've been inactive here, i've been following tournaments, and i'm yet to see a major won by a solo player, or even top 4's with solo-only players.

Some solo players going to teams to stay competitive is something that happened as well.

is notbthat they are weak, its just better players happend to like using teams. i cant go to tournaments that often and cb16 being my first i was increadible nervous.

ive trying playing team but i am not as good as me playing solopeacock, there are lots of factors when playing first how calm you are, the more nervous the more you drop, actual player skills and matchup.

 

[NCV]

Huh. that's a thing now. I had no idea. Nevermind then.

 

[Plaxcaster]

Could we maybe have an option to change the shortcuts of Stick Assists? For now it is set to:
Right Stick Up: LK + MP (ASSIST 1)
Right Stick Down: MK + HP (ASSIST 2)

It would be pretty cool to be able to change those shortcuts, I'd for instance would love to be able to change assist 2 to being MP + HK leaving the HP button open when I'm pressing shortcut.
Since there are only 2 commands per call, it could be done easily with 4 presets covering all combinations. For example on the UI:

Right Stick Assist: Off > Preset 1 > Preset 2 > Preset 3 > Preset 4

Or it that's a bit confusing it could be displayed as:

Right Stick Assist: Off > On > Alt 1 > Alt 2 > Alt 3

I think it would be pretty easy to implement, although it might be a bit to niche of a change. pls Mike

 

[Tank]

Did adding a "reset to default" toggle for the training menu ever get looked at being added? I brought it up a while ago so maybe it got glossed over.

 

[Masqman]

>fortune
>buffs

Spoiler

 

[shuckle]

The Cerecopter > Dynamo thing that @Swiftfox-Dash was talking about. I don't know if it's worth anything though, you could just avoid it by delaying Dynamo slightly

 

[Cadenza]

tagging @Mike_Z to repeat two request
1. can you improve filia's c.hp to hit airborne characters during a comb
2. can double's j.hp suck people in on the last hit instead of pushing them out?

 

[BigEffinDud]

Could we maybe have an option to change the shortcuts of Stick Assists? For now it is set to:
Right Stick Up: LK + MP (ASSIST 1)
Right Stick Down: MK + HP (ASSIST 2)

It would be pretty cool to be able to change those shortcuts, I'd for instance would love to be able to change assist 2 to being MP + HK leaving the HP button open when I'm pressing shortcut.
Since there are only 2 commands per call, it could be done easily with 4 presets covering all combinations. For example on the UI:

Right Stick Assist: Off > Preset 1 > Preset 2 > Preset 3 > Preset 4

Or it that's a bit confusing it could be displayed as:

Right Stick Assist: Off > On > Alt 1 > Alt 2 > Alt 3

I think it would be pretty easy to implement, although it might be a bit to niche of a change. pls Mike

I asked for this a few weeks ago, he said it's too dangerous to implement now... something about coding and other things I'm not in school for.

 

[Masqman]

I don't know if it's worth anything though, you could just avoid it by delaying Dynamo slightly

you can also do FHP>AA grab which is what I do, I end up getting more meter and I don't have to worry about flipping which ruins my incoming and combo etc.

 

[MegamanDS]

you can also do FHP>AA grab which is what I do, I end up getting more meter and I don't have to worry about flipping which ruins my incoming and combo etc.

I thought this was standard

 

[Lex]

you can also do FHP>AA grab which is what I do, I end up getting more meter and I don't have to worry about flipping which ruins my incoming and combo etc.

Doing Cerecopter does more damage at the cost of less meter. cr.MK, f.HP, Excella also whiffs midscreen at the end of certain combos vs some characters so sometimes it is better/safer to go for cerecopter.

 

[JDbbx]

Doing Cerecopter does more damage at the cost of less meter. cr.MK, f.HP, Excella also whiffs midscreen at the end of certain combos vs some characters so sometimes it is better/safer to go for cerecopter.

you can jLP jLP jHP microdash cLP to make sure it connects on everyone midscreen!

but yeah just delay dynamo in the corner and it works fine

 

[Rabbleflaggers]

For Beowulf's Three Wulf Moonsault, would it be possible for the bgm to fade out when Beowulf says his lines ("Cry for the moon!" "Glowing in the dark!" etc.) and fades back in after he pummels the opponent to make it a bit cooler?

 

[shuckle]

Doing Cerecopter does more damage at the cost of less meter. cr.MK, f.HP, Excella also whiffs midscreen at the end of certain combos vs some characters so sometimes it is better/safer to go for cerecopter.

Just nitpicking. If you're bringing up midscreen then cMK f+HP Cerecopter doesn't work either, it only works in the corner and it does hella damage. But other enders work just fine, so if there's more important things to iron out then it's really not gamebreaking, just a minor inconvenience.

 

[Cadenza]

Oh and the last request.....can we somehow....i don't if its even possible, but PLEASE. make double's jab better? I legitmately do not know how to make it better but jesus does it actually sucks for converting sometimes.