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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

Masqman said:
I'm fine with less neutral in the game Neutral is boring to watch imo. Seeing someone in the corner under pressure and then figuring out how they deal with it or crumble is where the fun stuff happens.
No matter what way you cut it, 150 undizzy would mean more 2 player interaction. In the corner pressure scenario, there would be more tense moments where the defending player has their chance.

I can definitely empathize with the people who are saying no just because the game is being locked down soon, but personally I just want the game that will be the most fun to me in the long term.
 
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As a player on the slightly less then average skill level I am both for and against this Undizzy change. On a new player perspective this could make the barrier to entry alot easier and with new eventual optimized combos that would be made it would help a newer player's muscle memory to a shorter combo. I would be very curious to try it at 150 but at the same time I agree with the ones who disagree in that it seems too late for something so drastic. If this was like in the first patch note during the trail periods then yeah that'd be cool to test and tweak. If its gets into the game then I'd trust Mike's decision because it would be weird if Mike himself purposed this change and he Didn't have the other things it would affect both long and short term for the game carefully thought out for already.

Cause thats the weird part to me in that at the start of the 150 UD discussion it was discussed as if some random person suggested it as a change with all the "No keep it the way it is, its too late now" type of comments but this is from Mike specifically meaning he wouldn't suggest it if he didn't have a plan to balance it around it or something
 
Tomo009 said:
I can't definitely empathize with the people who are saying no just because the game is being locked down soon, but personally I just want the game that will be the most fun to me in the long term.
Mind you those are the players that also go to tournaments frequently and have been playing an outdated version for so long.
Not making jabs at online warriors since we all were. but understand from their position as well.
 
I'm for trying it, if we have time, specifically for this reason.

Liam said:
I had more FUN living longer and getting more chances to block things, and I had FUN opening up the opponent more than twice before I could kill them.
 
Liam said:
- You have to hit the other person A LOT to kill them. Like back to back resets over and over. There's no questioning the increase of 2 player gameplay.
It's also much harder for someone with a ratio advantage to do Touch > Reset > Level 1 > DHC you're dead.
This sounds like it defeats the purpose of playing a smaller team for a bigger ratio.

I realize most people who play this game are trios, but this whole 150 undizzy thing sounds like something, "By trios, for trios." I'm probably one of three people actually trying to play solo competitively, but as a solo, I don't want to have to reset the other guy a bunch times. What I want to do is, reset the opponent as few times as possible and then follow up with a combo that does utterly explosive damage. If I'm sitting on a ton of meter, you can bet I'm going for a Level 4 TOD on that trio player.

There's a host of other reasons why I don't support this change: How late it's being proposed, low damage characters becoming utterly pointless, high damage characters becoming broken, the fact that it does little to zoners, the fact that some characters will still clobber you with a level 5 regardless of the undizzy -- putting non-level 5 characters at a major disadvantage, and as a I've already stated, solos and duos being put at an even greater disadvantage since both hinge on hitting like dump trucks. Duos are for people who want more damage but want some extra options -- likely to cover bad matchups I assume -- and solos just want to clobber you outright.

I was at work and couldn't watch the stream, so I don't know if Liam played duo / solo or not, but I'm extremely worried that lowering the undizzy would have serious impact on anybody who is not a trio.

@Cadenza When I was GUTS, the theme was, "Retail? Oh I forgot about that." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
gllt said:
Fortune 2v3 thing
Is that any different from this?

This same combo will kill 2v2 if I slap a super and a dhc at the end of it, btw. Dunno if that's relevant.
 
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BlueFeena said:
"By trios, for trios."
Undizzy already favours solo the most of all the ratios.
It sounds like you might be ignoring that the trio character will have to reset the solo character more in order to kill them, but solo should still be able to kill a trio in two touches and a bar, which is how it was already if you weren't spending 4 bars to ToD (Which I'm sure they can still do).
 
I'm a No on changing undizzy.
Long combos keep the opposing player on their toes of "when are they going to reset??" versus "Oh it's probably here."
Players who have good defense would probably cause so many time outs please god no
 
BlueFeena said:
I realize most people who play this game are trios, but this whole 150 undizzy thing sounds like something, "By trios, for trios." I'm probably one of three people actually trying to play solo competitively, but as a solo, I don't want to have to reset the other guy a bunch times. What I want to do is, reset the opponent as few times as possible and then follow up with a combo that does utterly explosive damage. If I'm sitting on a ton of meter, you can bet I'm going for a Level 4 TOD on that trio player.
Um. I'm a solo too? This is great for us. You take less damage. You live longer, people have to reset you more than they already did, they can't corner carry you like crazy, they can't setup everything that their character is capable of setting up on any stray assist hit. You also have more chances to touch them, thereby giving you more chances to kill everything as well as to snap your health back. You still kill any assist you touch.

Testing it out, Bella can TOD 1v3 with 150 and 5 meters. Still kill 1v3 off of one reset, which is pretty much how it is in beta now. She can TOD 1v2 with a HCH and 5 bars, and it takes two resets to kill 1v2 like it did before.
 
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Taking the "combos is too long" argument to its logical extreme, please remove all launchers and chains in any way, shape or form as they take too long.

It's far too late for this change to not feel hamfisted. The combos being shortened won't really bring in a surge of new players because they'll find some other excuse anyway, in case that argument is still being entertained by somebody. Whatever pros having shorter combos has (and I think LLMMH is FAR worse for long combos than 240 undizzy is in terms of pace and "wtf just stop" factor that Filia/Fortune/Valentine combos have), they're outweighed to me by the fact that it's just too late to bring on such a massive change.

Long combos also have several downsides that people don't think about for whatever reason, the biggest one being that you give the opponent just a bunch of meter they can spend on reversal -> safe DHC which is strong particularly when you do a long combo on a point character. (Of course this requires people to construct teams in a smart way and not just unga bunga I wanna pick my waifu). Also if you get some big punish on an uppercut or something at full undizzy often times you won't be able to get back all the undizzy you want to do a big combo, especially if you want to do that combo and kill in a 3v2 perspective without spending meter (I think the best way to play SG wrt meter is to do short resets that build you a ton of bar while not giving the opponent any, and when their last character comes in you spend all the bar and try to kill them asap).

Ultimately as far as 150ud goes from a purely design perspective I'm ambivalent on it, but as it stands it's far far far too late to be doing something this drastic.

Unless people want to fund that elusive "final balance patch" gofundme in 2017.
 
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Matches time out already in the current undizzy formula and we already play 3/5's in almost every tournament. I feel like compared to MvC3 we have plenty of player interaction.
 
How many times would a solo character without big damage have to touch to kill an oponent on a trio or duo with this 150 undizzy thing? I imagine this would affect a character's viability as a solo overall, well some viability would be better than none anyways.
 
Add the option to choose in the game? If both players agree to 1 style, you play it. If both disagree, it goes to 195.
 
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ship retail with 240

make beta 150 once retail is shipped

also I personally think it should be 160 rather than 150 since 150 doesn't allow medium heavy medium heavy medium heavy ground chain
 
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I'd love 150 undizzy its basically what I wanted since vanilla and SDE but please just ship the game ;_; Chicago already has problems with "hey should we play with beta or retail?" and "Can we reasonably expect beta changes in time for Frosty Faustings?"

I assume that a change like this would reasonably require a good chunk more testing. If it's going to happen for real can it happen after Combo Breaker 2017 so its after our tournament season? I know its pretty unreasonable to ask Mike to keep working on Skullgirls for so long but I assume that changing to 150 undizzy is kinda signing up for the long haul anyway.
 
JDbbx said:
make beta 150 once retail is shipped
This is taking a lot of things for granted that shouldn't be.
 
Zidiane said:
Is that any different from this?
This same combo will kill 2v2 if I slap a super and a dhc at the end of it, btw. Dunno if that's relevant.

That existing doesn't make me like what I posted any better, if that's good enough of an answer.

For anyone wondering.. I also wasn't calling out Fortune or even Duo vs Trio.
Granted, Fortune DOES do it in 2v3 with a multihit assist and from doing her universal, easy, assist carrying combo.
There are just teams in this game that reset you once and you die. That is what they do.
Unless you play Solo, anyways.

 
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gllt said:
That existing doesn't make me like what I posted any better, if that's good enough of an answer.
That combo I posted will corner carry the entire screen, too, so it's the optimal thing to do anywhere.
 
Alternatively, the meter scaling could scale even more sharply so that resets would be encouraged, without cutting down on combo length for those that want to do long ones. I would still prefer 150 undizzy, but maybe that's an alternative people could be happy with? I also like @MegamanDS idea if 150 flat isn't on the table.
 
This is going to be the game's final patch, I think a change to the combo system this drastic is too much when it's late in the game. I do, however, like the idea of using beta experiments like this to test ideas for a potential sequel...
 
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i'm hugely in favour of 150. I think it's probably better for the game's health in the long run cause it leads to more Fun Interactions™
 
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With a New Undizzy to mix things up it would make things feel fresh and new like it was a new SG even if its not SG2 which we have no time frame of when that may ever happen so it'd be nice to have more years of figuring out new combos and such with a 150 UD change. Even if it may mean more balance changes in the future would be needed to accommodate it.
 
So do we know exactly when the beta is supposed to end? Soon is all I'm seeing whenever that is. Would a month be long enough to test 150 undizzy?

Better yet make it an option that the tournament organizer can decide what undizzy size will be used for the tournament. 150,240,340, no undizzy options.
 
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Tank said:
Better yet make it an option that the tournament organizer can decide what undizzy size will be used for the tournament. 150,240,340, no undizzy options.
Worst idea you could come up with - the playerbase isn't big enough to accomodate something like that.

Either such things disappear in the nether (like rounds for teams, 3v3 in DotA, etc), they split the playerbase and thus kill the game (because then neither mode has sufficient players to stay afloat), or at best still just cause issues and confusion (with some tournament setups being accidentally set to no undizzy in a 150ud tournament, etc)

Similar reasoning for the Beta-150 thing, unless you truly want to go "This is a testing ground for SG2, 240 is forever tournament standard on retail and if you try to run a 150ud tournament we call the plague upon you" but even then it'd make more sense to start that experiment in 2 years time or something, not now (since SG2 is still rather far away)
 
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It would be cool if 150 was a selection that way even though it's there if in the end people hate it, it goes unused.

But if people end up liking it we make that the standard and put it in the rules for tournament. The only problem is with netplay as the default would probably be 240 and well new players tend to be clueless.

Also about combo length and expression, you only "express" yourself by one chain less than normal so I don't get that part. ground>air>ground>air>super or ground>air>ground>ground>super (varies on character) instead of ground>air>ground>air>ground>super (varies on character). Most "expression" I see are loops so that's a hard shrug for me. The game looks less loop combo-y at 150 and you can actually play with 150 a lot for good damage since at 150 your damage scaling is really low. Meaning creativity is actually welcome.

And from what I've noticed you only lose 1k sometimes less than that because it depends on the character.

All that said it's rather late for a change so I think an undizzy select from 240 to 150 would be a better idea since we can just implement rules for SG in tournament.
 
After all these arguments I'm actually changing my opinion. 150ud could be really good for the game.
Unfortunately I think it's just too late to do such a major change like this one.
 
Stuff said:
But if people end up liking it we make that the standard and put it in the rules for tournament. The only problem is with netplay as the default would probably be 240 and well new players tend to be clueless.

If 150 became a main stay for tourny's and the SG community then I imagen a simple patch to change the defaults of 240 to 150 UD would suffice when the decision became final.
 
Man, our playerbase is SO small already, the last thing we need is half the people playing the 150 version and half the people playing the 240 version. It would be the quickest thing to kill SG completely.

It MUST, NO EXCEPTIONS, be EITHER 150 OR 240.
 
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Anyways, this isn't a change that is coming to beta, is it? So there is not much point talking about it.

Solos aren't really viable competitive choices, and this will probably not change, and any other effect that a shorter undizzy bar could have as well.
 
Solos are perfectly viable. Where has this 'solos are not viable' come from.

Requiring what would appear to be much stronger defense than a team with an invincible assist, is obviously more work, but not impossible.
 
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Okay, here is where I am confused when I look at posts from people who don't want the change due to it being too late:

Most posters of the dissenting opinion are saying that we would "need to tweak a lot of numbers" and a few other statements if 150 UD was to be implemented. Would someone be willing to elaborate on that for me? I know I haven't worded most of my SG posts in this thread (or in other places) in a constructive and level-headed manner, so I want it to be clear: I'm not instigating. I'm just legitimately curious as to what exactly would need to be tweaked.

From what I saw with Liam streaming, I saw a better video game. It had more player vs player interactions, and combos still did a good amount of damage. That, and I probably am off, but I feel like prior to Mike asking about 150 UD on twitter, it seemed like people who would want that were in a majority, tbh. That was my initial impression.

Yes, I get that I know absolutely nothing about SG, and I'm honestly still a low level player despite my time invested, I personally would just like the change to go through, and I feel like there are a lot of benefits for the game overall in doing so. Because I can't speak for all of the players, I just feel that for players around my skill level it will make the game less frustrating to play. Yes, I realize we can get into semantics by saying "they are resetting you one more time, you're bad so you will still get hit by the 3rd mixup", but again, that's just my 2c.
 
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cloudKing211 said:
Where has this 'solos are not viable' come from.
While i've been inactive here, i've been following tournaments, and i'm yet to see a major won by a solo player, or even top 4's with solo-only players.

Some solo players going to teams to stay competitive is something that happened as well.
 
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Sotherius said:
While i've been inactive here, i've been following tournaments, and i'm yet to see a major won by a solo player, or even top 4's with solo-only players.

Some solo players going to teams to stay competitive is something that happened as well.
Sonicfox won an offline tournament as solo Filia this year, as far as I know. Maybe Summer Jam? (edit: it was CEO 2016 with solo Fukua) It wasn't as big as Combo Breaker, but it's still a tournament. SG has a decent-sized community, but there aren't so many players representing all team combinations at the very highest major-winning level that you can look at tournament top 4s and conclude that anything you don't see there is unviable.
 
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Mr Peck said:
won an offline tournament as solo Filia this year
Seriously? how did i miss that? i've been looking for tournament footage and all i could see was trios and duos on top 8's, more trios than anything. Did he play the entire thing using solo filia?

And while yeah, not having tournament winners doesn't mean anything too specific, having the good solo players i remember shifting to teams and also almost never having any solo in top 8's on the most competitive places feels like a good indication.
 
Hammerschmidt said:
I'm just legitimately curious as to what exactly would need to be tweaked.

Lower undizzy means lower combo damage which means potentially longer life time which leads to longer game length. I personally feel that games length is fine right now as game do often go till zero. I propose higher undizzy gain on CH to try to offset this instead of damage values because of time it would take to balance it.
 
Sotherius said:
Seriously? how did i miss that? i've been looking for tournament footage and all i could see was trios and duos on top 8's, more trios than anything. Did he play the entire thing using solo filia?
I just checked, and it looks like he won CEO 2016 with solo Fukua. I'm not sure if it was recorded.
 
Hammerschmidt said:
Most posters of the dissenting opinion are saying that we would "need to tweak a lot of numbers" and a few other statements if 150 UD was to be implemented. Would someone be willing to elaborate on that for me? I know I haven't worded most of my SG posts in this thread (or in other places) in a constructive and level-headed manner, so I want it to be clear: I'm not instigating. I'm just legitimately curious as to what exactly would need to be tweaked.
Let's presume that current SG is reasonably well balanced.
Then, if you just shorten combos without doing anything else, you hurt characters who rely on long combos (let's pretend Valentine gets her best mixups after a 160 Undizzy long combo, then all of them would be gone), while helping characters who rely more on stray hits / "neutral" (eg Peacock zoning isn't affected at all, or Big Band throwing out cHK/Brass/A-Train is unchanged); which in turn means that either you'd need to buff the chars who got severely weakened by this, or nerf the characters who are less affected (for example reducing Peacock Bomb damage)
Figuring out which characters are helped and which are worsened by this and what to do about them would take time.

Also, if you go ahead with reducing Undizzy, it would probably make sense to finetune this in some way rather than just saying "Ok, 150" - eg check whether maybe 160, or 175, or 140 make optimized combos feel more natural. That again would cost some time.

In actuality, SG is well balanced enough and Mike has probably thought about the number enough with X reasons (rather than just picking a random one) that you CAN probably just toss it in and it would end up fine. But "probably" is still no guarantee, and for a likely-last-patch, to throw what amounts to being "untested guesswork" just into the game and hope it works out is.. a risk, and not one that everyone is happy to take.
 
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