Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[Lex]

Funnily enough, it doesn't whiff her crouching. And against Squigly, it whiffs crouching, but not standing.

But I'd rather not, I have plenty of resets that involve whiffing it on purpose.

Well, you can still get it to whiff by adding a couple extra attacks in front of it in most situations since HP, L Fiber whiffs vs most of the cast unless it is at point blank or close to point blank.

 

[KTFS]

I think Peacock's new M Bang will look better with hard hit sound effect and spark. (and maybe more hitstop?)
It kind of look weird to me now...

 

[missingno]

What if Val's Mortuary Drop became a hard/untechable knockdown? Right now it feels kind of high risk/low reward. Allowing full/meterless conversions from it would obviously be insane, but a hard knockdown would just let her get a safe vial or try for some sort of setup, which I don't think is too much. I feel like she's a little too dependent on specific assists for her vials, so giving her just one more way to get one assistless would make her just a tiny bit more flexible.

(I already just follow it with vial+Beam assist as a meaty to cover me, but that's still assist dependent and I know if they tech forward certain wakeups can get through it.)

 

[SugarDots]

As for on-topic things, I'm adapting to Beta Ms. Fortune better than I thought! Comboing is slightly less difficult than before, and I'm finally using her headless mode more often than never. Being able to sneak the head next to the opponent while it was off-screen in the corner is one of the fun ways I've been able to use its new controls.

And I wish I had more comments to add about Parasoul, but I'm really liking her as-is in the beta. That one bugfix for the Egrat calls made all the difference for me.

'

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be elitist on you in any regard. Thanks Mr Peck for finding that patch note.

FWIW, this concept (double snaps) comes from other games, hence why it's intended. It is not something unique to SG, either as a feature or bug of this game turned into a feature.

I promise when I tell you something about the game, that I mean it as it is, but I'll make sure to be a bit more specific in my responses from now on if it helps.

You can tell I'm new to fighting games, I didn't know that was standard fare in the genre! I appreciate the heads up for when I buy more fighters.

For some reason I have a harder time detecting elitism than sarcasm on the Internet, so it's all good. Generally, this community is significantly more friendly than other corners of the Internet I've been on. I've made plenty of great friends from here on Discord so far.

 

[Cadenza]

She has s.hk s.hk s hk
For vial loads.

 

[gllt]

I'm pretty fine with Mort Drop as it is. I dunno. Val is in a good place and has been.
You get combos off it for 2 meters on a lot of teams anyways, even Val/Bella midscreen if you run HBypass to convert after.
It does fair damage. It's fast. I think it's throw invuln? You can cancel the startup into supers (including counter) if you know people jab out of it to escape.

You can still uncombo this version with assists too for a +7 on block as crossup. (Try tear shot assist.)
(as opposed to the super version which now is -3 on block as crossup, that is)

IDK mort drop seems fine to me? If she got any KD after it, it should be ONLY enough for a vial and not at all as much as sHK3 midscreen where she gets a vial AND a meaty.

You can tell I'm new to fighting games, I didn't know that was standard fare in the genre! I appreciate the heads up for when I buy more fighters.

It's more of a vs/team game thing, think Marvel.
However, some games have assists but you can't hit/combo them, like Nitroplus Blasterz.

Happy birthdays/double snaps/etc come from the former rather than the latter.
You won't see a double snap in Nitroplus. As far as I know.

 

[Zidiane]

I'm not for adding hitboxes to cMP. You say it wouldn't change it's purpose or use at all, but I use it for extremely low to the ground crossunders because of it's low profile ability. While hitboxes still let you low profile a projectile like beam, they will collide with an active opponent and prevent Bella from crossunder under depending on how they're shaped and how active they are, I'd imagine.

What I proposed wouldn't effect this at all. I think you actually misunderstood what I was saying.

Spoiler: original c.mp

Spoiler: proposed c.mp

It wouldn't change anything about crossunders. It would let you do a thing like Kanchou, then OTG with c.mp consistently on everyone. It's inconsistent vs characters like Parasoul and Valentine. I know there are other instances that this would help, like when happy birthdaying multiple characters. Sometimes the bigger character gets hit first and the second character, who normally would get hit OTG but gets hit later in active frames, drops out (try to Kanchou, OTG c.mp against Painwheel and Filia).

 

[missingno]

She has s.hk s.hk s hk
For vial loads.

Of course I know that, but should that really be pretty much her only decent way of getting vials without assists?

IDK mort drop seems fine to me? If she got any KD after it, it should be ONLY enough for a vial and not at all as much as sHK3 midscreen where she gets a vial AND a meaty.

Yeah I just meant she could get a vial OR a setup, both probably would be a bit much.

 

[Receita Federal]

Of course I know that, but should that really be pretty much her only decent way of getting vials without assists?

yes

 

[Cadenza]

Of course I know that, but should that really be pretty much her only decent way of getting vials without assists?

Among tick throws and very plus on block lights....i dunno pal i am doing my very best to be neutral on that standpoint.

 

[skull person]

Of course I know that, but should that really be pretty much her only decent way of getting vials without assists?

Throw works.

Yeah I just meant she could get a vial OR a setup, both probably would be a bit much.

Throw: 7F, hard knockdown, gives time for vial load AND set up after, 1F more priority than normals, meterless conversions if you want them.


Command Grab is 25F start up, requires two meters midscreen for most conversions (1 meter in the corner), and a DHC that leads into a combo for the next character.

EDIT: There's an almost 1F or straight up 1F timing window where the top scalpel will hit some of the cast after they leave the bag midscreen nevermind.

If it hits and you have no meter, you get 1200 DMG and reset to neutral midscreen, and give them a little space if they are in the corner.

BASICALLY command grab sucks and it always has, it's a little thing to catch people sleeping every 400 matches.
Maybe that's okay, but making it do the same thing as throw isn't very interesting because throw already does throw and does it 18F faster.
Low to the ground scalpel cancels midscreen to actually reward gimmicks would be way more hype imo.
She's already got a bunch of random buffs and no nerfs though so :S:S::SS:

 

[cloudKing211]

About Valentine's command throw, I think a buffer/larger window for scalpels after mortuary drop would be neat/make me want to use it.

Win neutral/pressure with a blockable/techable tool: spend no meter to gain resource.
Win neutral/pressure with an unblockable/untechable tool: spend a meter to gain a resource.

I am keeping in mind that it has 25 frame startup, but it is also attached to a character who doesnt need a superfast/meterless reward command throw. I think making currently available means of making it have use easier isnt a destabilizing change.


Imo

Edit: the want of easier to use tools is biased, but will try to debate points as objectively as I can

 

[Sydoh]

Okay, why?

If she is meant to have amazing neutral and everything else be not-as-great, then her getting any 2 fireballs (including same version like H>H or L>L) would help fill the gap left by the loss of old Shadow M.

Shadow L helps as a ground poke, but Shadow M is what helped contest the air, which is where most people go to approach and Shadow L can be jumped or blocked fairly easily in neutral. At this point, it seems like the shadows are more meant to be mixup/coverage tools after already gaining advantage, not as a tool to contest neutral.

Letting her have 2 fireballs out at once would let her keep at least a more similar level of strength of neutral game she had when she had old Shadow M, but without Shadow M's versatility in its individual usage.

_________

On a side note for QoL training mode: Would it be possible to include the option to adjust damage scaling manually?

 

[Zidiane]

Oh, forgot Isa.

That's just off the top of my head, rather sure you're happily omitting other things here.

I mentioned Deflect and forgot about Elbow. Sorry. The primary reason Deflect is possible from frame 1 is because before you couldn't PBGC Deflect Double spamming catheads.

This is aside from the entire game massively changing in ways that only benefit Bella (having high damage is kind of worthless when the lowest damage character can still ToD meterlessly..)

You're saying Cerebella is the sole benefactor of IPS and Undizzy removing TODs? That's an odd argument. Characters with worse neutral also benefited from getting more chances to play. Solo characters in general do better, and doubles also are more choosable than they were.

Is your only argument for all those experiments "Bella didn't change very much over time, so she should change some", or do you actually think that she is bad enough to need any of this at all?

Characters don't have to be "so bad that they need a new thing to survive" to get buffs/changes/experiments. Double got Beast of Ghenna despite being heavily featured in pretty much every Top 8 since Vanilla. Parasoul is getting non-QOL buffs and she's not really lacking in any major way. Ms.Fortune is getting head walk (which is super cool) because people want more of a reason to use headless (I want more of a reason to use x-move on Bella). Filia can currently dash cancel airball on block to I guess make it better on block. Peacock M Bang has full screen knockback (which, that and the teleporting while holding item and punch teleport, I don't think she needs (she needs SOMETHING, but not that)).

I get it. Cerebella is a good character. So is Fortune. Parasoul is good. Double is good too, and so is Beowulf, et cetera. So, if all these other characters who are perfectly fine (good, even) are/have been getting fiddled with, why am I an asshole for looking at Cerebella for areas she could change?

I've mentioned which changes/buffs/qol things I would want to try, and why. I tried to look for areas that wouldn't give her anything oppressive (something that could be abused), and tried to focus on ways she could improve that would allow someone to play her in new ways. I would rather discuss them, whether the things I suggested would be too good, whether they are meaningful, or if they would have unintended side effects, rather than just hearing "you shouldn't be asking for anything in the first place" again.

 

[cloudKing211]

Oh, forgot Isa.

Double got Beast of Ghenna despite being heavily featured in pretty much every Top 8 since Vanilla.

At that time period we still had old preblock (air moves cause preblock), and Double got Beast of Gehenna after the Eliza patch, where most players, including top 8 capable ones dropped double (Fukua Bella/"duo meta" ring any bells?)

Just wanted to say the BoG patch was the reason people started to play double again. Even early encore, people had alot of problems with double.

 

[Ninjapls]

About Valentine's command throw, I think a buffer/larger window for scalpels after mortuary drop would be neat/make me want to use it.

Win neutral/pressure with a blockable/techable tool: spend no meter to gain resource.
Win neutral/pressure with an unblockable/untechable tool: spend a meter to gain a resource.

I am keeping in mind that it has 25 frame startup, but it is also attached to a character who doesnt need a superfast/meterless reward command throw. I think making currently available means of making it have use easier isnt a destabilizing change.


Imo

Edit: the want of easier to use tools is biased, but will try to debate points as objectively as I can

I second this. Right now mort drop is just...there. There's like little reason to use it. Making it easier to convert off of with meter will give it some use besides "SURPRISE! GOTCHA B****!"

 

[Acido]

Shadow L helps as a ground poke, but Shadow M is what helped contest the air, which is where most people go to approach and Shadow L can be jumped or blocked fairly easily in neutral. At this point, it seems like the shadows are more meant to be mixup/coverage tools after already gaining advantage, not as a tool to contest neutral.

100% my opinion as well. Your fireball suggestion is pretty interesting, I'd give it a shot for sure.

 

[The Dave]

Does anybody have the new intro animations handy and available?

 

[RemiKz]

So this is pretty neato

 

[Gelato]

I'd like to suggest a change to Parasoul that solves a frustrating inconsistency with her. The change is when Parasoul lands a throw or air throw, all of her tears currently in play disappear in order to not disrupt the throw combo.

Here's why I think tears interrupting throw combos are a problem. The worst example of this is when a tear explodes the moment the throw's hitstun begins. This can be replicated by doing L shot then tick throwing with cLK. The tear immediately explodes once the combo starts, putting the combo right into stage 3 and ruining the throw's hitstun and trajectory, limiting possible follow ups. The player requires both awareness that the tear will explode at that precise time, and knowledge of an odd combo starter that will result in a weaker combo. I'm fine with having to deal with inconsistencies but it kind of sucks as a player knowing you're doing more work for less reward, particularly when I could be having an easier time if I just didn't happen to have a tear on them when I did the throw. The example I listed is only one situation, too. Depending on the timing and position of the tear there could be a number of different follow ups. With the change the player can be confident in their follow up every time.

Some of the downsides to this are that it makes her feel more stale or boring, it takes away some of the skill needed to play her to her max potential, and it ruins setup potential. I know tear setups after a throw exist, but I don't know if they are strong or not. Regardless, it takes away the fun of cool obscure tech.

Despite this I think it's worth trying out in game to see if it makes mixing up with tear pressure more fun. Other Parasoul players please weigh in on if you would prefer it or not, or if I'm mistaken on something.

 

[Jim Groovester]

BB's new j.mk[2] is great. Makes OTGless midscreen combos much easier on all the cast. Opens up some new combo routes. On its third use in a combo it lets BB restand an opponent from any height in the air, which is pretty cool.

I like it.

 

[Zidiane]

Double got Beast of Gehenna after the Eliza patch, where most players, including top 8 capable ones dropped double (Fukua Bella/"duo meta" ring any bells?)

Just wanted to say the BoG patch was the reason people started to play double again. Even early encore, people had alot of problems with double.

The biggest tournament in that period (Eliza patch -> Beo patch), according to our tournament results thread, was WB9 with 23 people, which had two Doubles in Top 8. From Encore onwards (Feb 11th 2014-April 17th, 2015), SCR, 49 man event, had two Doubles in Top 8, with one of them winning. NorCal had 23 entrants and 5 Doubles in Top 8. ECT with 20 entrants had 4 Doubles (2 of them in Top 4). UFGTX with 63 entrants had 5 Doubles in Top 8. EVO with 168 entrants had 9 Doubles in Top 16, 3 in Top 8, and Double was on the tournament winning team. I actually can't find a single event at any point in time with over with 16 or more entrants (or fewer, but...) without Double in Top 8/Top 4.

Maybe it felt like she was harder to use, I couldn't speak on that. Even if that was the case, though, every result points to her character was thriving in a tournament setting.

 

[Rabbleflaggers]

Does anybody have the new intro animations handy and available?

https://www.twitch.tv/game_realms/v/89788117

MikeZ shows some of the intro animations but you'll see most of the new ones when people are actually fighting each other

 

[VIVIT_rv00]

I'd like to suggest a change to Parasoul that solves a frustrating inconsistency with her. The change is when Parasoul lands a throw or air throw, all of her tears currently in play disappear in order to not disrupt the throw combo.

I don't want that. Parasoul's appeal comes from properly placing and using tears, and having to adapt combos to certain tear formations is part of that. As she also has two grounded overheads she doesn't need to rely on throw setups when tears would complicate them.

 

[JDbbx]

Hello I've been without internet for a bit so I haven't commented on this before but I very much dislike K > P priority for Val

sHP/sHK (+ assist) xx Bypass is easily time-able but sHP/sHK QCF HP+MK (dead cross + assist) is a good way of keeping safe at the end of blockstrings.

Essentially it feels terrible.

I feel that bypass priority is just gonna get me thrown 9 times out of 10 since the whole point of val's standing heavies is to use the assist and shuriken to stay safe/dash up confirm. Some assists need bypass to confirm, granted, but it's easily time-able.

I'd argue actually that this nerfs sHP's utility in general since in cMK sHP xx QCF MP+HK you use Dead Cross to stay safe while keeping pressure with cMK (frametrap) sHP (frametrap) Dead Cross (frametrap) assist (frametrap) then dash in for a mixup or confirm depending on whether it hit or not.

Those who use sHK(2) over sHP will probably disagree since they have time to hitconfirm into either sHK assist + Bypass or blockconfirm (!) into sHK dead cross.

The problem is mostly for sHP users. sHP is incredibly useful for dodging DP assists, baiting PBGCs, delaying pressure and many more things. Its downside is that you have very little time to figure out whether or not it hit. Trying to visually hitconfirm sHP into MK bypass is tight as all hell. sHP into Dead Cross is fine since it'll most likely be very safe anyway.

Being able to call assist as late as possible during sHP assist + shuriken is important, too. Many assists won't give you time for a dash-up confirm if you call the assist too early.

All in all Bypass > Dead Cross priority kinda messes up most of my neutral game, though I understand why sHK(2) users would want it.

R.I.P. sHP :(



EDIT: the assist I use for sHP xx [dead cross + assist] is H LnL, for reference.

 

[KTFS]

Can silver chord NOT hit assist?
Or is assist blocking silver chord and protecting the point character a feature?

 

[PandaGirlBingo]

Can silver chord NOT hit assist?
Or is assist blocking silver chord and protecting the point character a feature?

Charged cord goes through assists , so yea its a feature.

 

[gllt]

RE: Tears disappearing if you throw: voting against. I have lots of setups that die over this. However I've already said losing setups is no big deal for a change that needs to happen. If other Para players like this, rip my setups, change it. I see why it could be useful.

RE: Val K > P priority: thanks for making that post so I didn't have to. 5000% agree. I use Bypass combos all the time. Now please give me back dead cross. I'm literally dying here. Because I'm bypassing into their face in deadcross situations, calling my assist, and getting happy birthdayed. Please send help.

RE: silver chord not hitting assist: Weird suggestion but I get it, uhh only defense against it is that my silver chord assist hits the opponent's assist sometimes and disables it, which is good enough for me, hahaha. It's my only grounded horizontal assist because of how high hbomber goes, so I use the single hit it does on assists as a jank counter call. Anyways, I dunno we could.. try it if Mike thinks its okay? I'm indifferent.

No, Please No, Maybe.

Also just read PGB's post, didn't know that. Neat! Thanks PGB.

EDIT:

BB's new j.mk[2] is great. Makes OTGless midscreen combos much easier on all the cast. Opens up some new combo routes. On its third use in a combo it lets BB restand an opponent from any height in the air, which is pretty cool.

I like it.

hey @Jim Groovester mind showing me how some of this works? I need to form my opinion on the new jMK2 because I still wasn't feeling gravity and I'm all for nerfing jMK2 into the ground but I've lost some very useful extensions I'm used to from old jMK2, so if new jMK2 part 2 can do some NICE things, think you could help me catch up to speed here? ;3;

EDIT: Small append re: Val things

I alternate between sHP and sHK depending on what I'm doing but I ALWAYS WANT DEAD CROSS PRIORITY. My Val teams run Brass, MBeat, HLnL, MBomber, Updo, and HShot. I constantly do, and expect, shuriken+assist in every case on pretty much any Val team I run. Whenever I want Bypass off an assist I either

A) Do the timing of calling assist from sHP then doing L/M/H Bypass
B) Do assist+shuriken with intent to TK bypass twice after the assist hits (brass is a good example)

I always want shuriken aaaahhhhh

 

[ShakyFingers]

Would it be possible to make it so point characters won't randomly drop out of Diamond Dynamo - and other supers that it affects - when you kill them with it? There are some situations where I'll kill with one of the early hits of dynamo and be way too minus to do anything on their incoming, and lose all of my momentum for it.

edit: I apologize in advance if this has come up a lot before, but I haven't seen it mentioned at all before.

 

[skull person]

I think the better solution is not to let the next character come in until x frames AFTER the super is finished.

 

[PME]

Well, you can still get it to whiff by adding a couple extra attacks in front of it in most situations

True, but I like to keep the button presses as brief as possible to make the reset seem faster

 

[Jim Groovester]

hey @Jim Groovester mind showing me how some of this works? I need to form my opinion on the new jMK2 because I still wasn't feeling gravity and I'm all for nerfing jMK2 into the ground but I've lost some very useful extensions I'm used to from old jMK2, so if new jMK2 part 2 can do some NICE things, think you could help me catch up to speed here? ;3;

Yeh bro here watch this

You can't do that in retail or with previous versions of j.mk[2]. This works on everyone, but it's tricky on Squigly and Painwheel. In retail I struggled forever to find a midscreen hard knockdown combo against lights that didn't do complete ass for damage and here it is in beta and it's not that hard.

The new j.mk[2] opens up new combo routes but getting to lvl 2 and lvl 3 j.mk[2] requires some commitment early on in the combo. Once you get to lv2 and lv3 you don't have to worry too hard about getting characters back to the ground in order to keep the combo going, thankfully enough, and you can link into bigger buttons as well.

Some other things I've noticed:
Finishing combos with the jlp jmp jmk jmk jhp H-Atrain string that I love so much is now super duper easy if j.mk[2] has been used once before in the combo. It doesn't require tricky timing or anything like that anymore. So a bunch of my combos that the first gravity changes killed now suddenly work again.

Like I mentioned you can restand characters from any height in the air; against characters lower in the air you can restand them with different buttons than in retail but more or less you end up in the same place as if you finished an air string with a low to the ground j.lk or j.mk. Against lighter characters high in the air the last hit of jmk[2] will whiff, which is good since the last hit has a lot of hitstop and knocks characters up a bit and interferes with the restanding. From high in the air you can pull them to the ground to continue the combo (with somewhat tight timing) or into a reset.

It's still new and I'm still working at it. I'm trying to see what sorts of burst baits I can do from it (none yet) or if I can do something dumb like drop my combo, reset the gravity, and cross up with j.mk[2] hover once they're on the ground (maybe, but not yet) or intentionally drop my combo and hover over opponents into an ambiguous crossup tympani drive (seems pretty slow), and things like that.

It's a cool new button and it may not be as useful as I think it is, but at the moment I like it.

 

[gllt]

EDIT: Thanks Jim! Taking a look after I post this.
---
Re: Mort Drop

If we try out midscreen scalpels conversions being easier, I really want some sort of tradeoff.
Val is already insane at getting hits, keeping them, disengaging whenever she wants, and generally almost not caring about the damage she does because of her insane mixup.

She has tons of tools to open you up with and right now she's rewarded 1 meter conversions off mort drop by getting to the corner, they're highly scaled after cmd grab + scalpels, though mort drop does fair base damage. But you don't care because you're Valentine and you're going to do a disgusting reset or just add poison and assists.

Right now I get this midscreen on Val/Bella/Band with mort drop EKG Dynamo otg fHP+HBypass, its a little work, but it lets me convert off the command grab from a midscreen hit and start bella/brass antics after my next reset.

If she could convert for 1 meter then I get to choose between

A) not doing anything, letting them go fullscreen (this is useful in some matchups, bad vs say peacock even if you get right back in because you're val, but why would you put peacock fullscreen?)
B) 1 meter for scalpels, keep my point in, continue val/excella/brass antics and have bella/brass in the back for later
C) still spend 1 meter and bring bella in (recover val's health) and continue from there

I worry that having that much choice is a bit too good? But doing something like leaving them closer and with Val at more recovery might be too harsh, or a buff vs Peacock midscreen since you could mort drop whenever and convert for 1 meter or be left in an okay position for not converting since you're leaving her closer, which is bad for Peacock..

I mention those kind of nerfs to mort drop because lowering the base damage doesn't really scare me that much. It got nerfed before too when it got sped up (this was the buff in exchange) and the super cancel window on whiff got bopped (rip sick counter setups only kinda). If you took more damage away and give me 1 meter conversions, I'm still getting/keeping a hit off midscreen command grab and not really caring what damage I'm doing from it personally because I'm Valentine. If you give me that, you need to hit me somewhere else, seriously. Just don't make it the speed either. Old speed was ass.

Ok we might not get this (probably) but there's my $15.

EDIT 2: SOLD ON THAT jMK2 LOL THANK YOU

 

[cloudKing211]

EDIT: Thanks Jim! Taking a look after I post this.
---
Re: Mort Drop

If we try out midscreen scalpels conversions being easier, I really want some sort of tradeoff.
Val is already insane at getting hits, keeping them, disengaging whenever she wants, and generally almost not caring about the damage she does because of her insane mixup.

She has tons of tools to open you up with and right now she's rewarded 1 meter conversions off mort drop by getting to the corner, they're highly scaled after cmd grab + scalpels, though mort drop does fair base damage. But you don't care because you're Valentine and you're going to do a disgusting reset or just add poison and assists.

Right now I get this midscreen on Val/Bella/Band with mort drop EKG Dynamo otg fHP+HBypass, its a little work, but it lets me convert off the command grab from a midscreen hit and start bella/brass antics after my next reset.

If she could convert for 1 meter then I get to choose between

A) not doing anything, letting them go fullscreen (this is useful in some matchups, bad vs say peacock even if you get right back in because you're val, but why would you put peacock fullscreen?)
B) 1 meter for scalpels, keep my point in, continue val/excella/brass antics and have bella/brass in the back for later
C) still spend 1 meter and bring bella in (recover val's health) and continue from there

I worry that having that much choice is a bit too good? But doing something like leaving them closer and with Val at more recovery might be too harsh, or a buff vs Peacock midscreen since you could mort drop whenever and convert for 1 meter or be left in an okay position for not converting since you're leaving her closer, which is bad for Peacock..

I mention those kind of nerfs to mort drop because lowering the base damage doesn't really scare me that much. It got nerfed before too when it got sped up (this was the buff in exchange) and the super cancel window on whiff got bopped (rip sick counter setups only kinda). If you took more damage away and give me 1 meter conversions, I'm still getting/keeping a hit off midscreen command grab and not really caring what damage I'm doing from it personally because I'm Valentine. If you give me that, you need to hit me somewhere else, seriously. Just don't make it the speed either. Old speed was ass.

Ok we might not get this (probably) but there's my $15.

EDIT 2: SOLD ON THAT jMK2 LOL THANK YOU

We arent asking for midscreen 1 meter conversions.

Midscreen mortuary drop scalpels h bypass works on everyone but pw, peacock, and bella

Its already in the game

 

[gllt]

We arent asking for midscreen 1 meter conversions.

Midscreen mortuary drop scalpels h bypass works on everyone but pw, peacock, and bella

Its already in the game

Did I misread because I thought that was exactly what someone asked for and also it was state the scalpels window sucked in a Liam post

Because I thought someone asked to make it easier

:V?

edit: Cloud I really hope you don't think I didn't know its already in the game (there's no reason to do it in it's current state and I would actually almost ask for it be removed it nothing else happens tbh might as well err on consistency and just make it not work on everyone IMO because going for it right now is pointless as far as I'm concerned with the current success rate)

 

[cloudKing211]

Did I misread because I thought that was exactly what someone asked for and also it was state the scalpels window sucked in a Liam post

Because I thought someone asked to make it easier

:V?

edit: Cloud I really hope you don't think I didn't know its already in the game (there's no reason to do it in it's current state and I would actually almost ask for it be removed it nothing else happens tbh might as well err on consistency and just make it not work on everyone IMO because going for it right now is pointless as far as I'm concerned with the current success rate)

I made a comment about what could be done to mort drop to make it more useful, without really adding a new thing to it. As it is now, there is a very small window to get scalpel super midscreen. It however does work on all but the short characters (they fly out of the body bag at a higher point, or just have smaller air hitstun hitboxes).
I think it working on 11 of the 14 cast members is consistent enough to not have it outright removed.

You are right that as the cancel window is now, it is inconsistent enough that going for that confirm is at most times not worth it. So I don't (bc failing is a wasted meter).

Using the argument that Val is too strong,that she shouldn't get a slightly larger window on an already existing confirm, is something I wouldn't agree with. Whether or not she needed it is a different story, but would still be a discussion.

Edit: This last point was specific about the reason, there may be other reasons for it.

 

[dekillsage]

The biggest tournament in that period (Eliza patch -> Beo patch), according to our tournament results thread, was WB9 with 23 people, which had two Doubles in Top 8. From Encore onwards (Feb 11th 2014-April 17th, 2015), SCR, 49 man event, had two Doubles in Top 8, with one of them winning. NorCal had 23 entrants and 5 Doubles in Top 8. ECT with 20 entrants had 4 Doubles (2 of them in Top 4). UFGTX with 63 entrants had 5 Doubles in Top 8. EVO with 168 entrants had 9 Doubles in Top 16, 3 in Top 8, and Double was on the tournament winning team. I actually can't find a single event at any point in time with over with 16 or more entrants (or fewer, but...) without Double in Top 8/Top 4.

Maybe it felt like she was harder to use, I couldn't speak on that. Even if that was the case, though, every result points to her character was thriving in a tournament setting.

EVO2014 a double player wins, the only one in top 4. Post EVO2014 double doesn't win a tournament until I start playing her again over a year later.
zzzzzz a whole year.

I only picked her up again because of the preblock change and her getting monster among other nice improvements. She was hard to win with, and btw, getting top 8 at a mostly mid level monthly entry level tournament doesn't mean much.... I don't even remember the last time double got top 3 during this time lol

Now after those changes were implemented she was godlike and needed to be toned down a little bit, and she was.

What are we talking about again? lol

If she is meant to have amazing neutral and everything else be not-as-great, then her getting any 2 fireballs (including same version like H>H or L>L) would help fill the gap left by the loss of old Shadow M.

Shadow L helps as a ground poke, but Shadow M is what helped contest the air, which is where most people go to approach and Shadow L can be jumped or blocked fairly easily in neutral. At this point, it seems like the shadows are more meant to be mixup/coverage tools after already gaining advantage, not as a tool to contest neutral.

Letting her have 2 fireballs out at once would let her keep at least a more similar level of strength of neutral game she had when she had old Shadow M, but without Shadow M's versatility in its individual usage.

The gap left by the loss of old shadow can be filled by you doing 1) J.lp 2)cr.hp as an anti air 3) holding a shadow

She has the best air to air button and the easiest and best follow up button to top it off. She doesn't need M shadow to have amazing neutral, its still super strong.

What having 2 fireballs will actually do is give her fireball -> hold shadow -> fireball and multiple variations of that which is too much control. A character with a hundred set ups probably shouldn't have that much control, so I'm going to disagree with the 2 fireball idea.

 

[keninblack]

Yeah Double wasn't even on the character select screen during the Eliza patch lets be real.

Wanna know what character was in every single team in EVO2014 top 4 that WASN'T Double? Bella.

Maybe she hasn't "changed much" because she's fine and people seem to be doing okay with her. Idk tho i'm wild.

 

[gllt]

I think it working on 11 of the 14 cast members

If that's the actual number, then erring on the side of consistency on average should mean she should get the easier cancel window then IMO.

 

[Psychopath]

Make Peacock’s SoiD properly disappear when she is thrown immediately after blocking while holding a Shadow that has been RELEASED during blockstun.

In-between downs during a 1v1, the shadow will persist if Peacock was chipped out. Same bug, different flavor.