Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[Negus Eyoel]

It's possible to reduce startup of H Luger to 12F or 14F?

Just compared with others projectiles only change your trajectory like Love Dart, Dead Cross, UpperKhat, etc...
I do not think there should be reason to have a difference.

it's a projectile that has anti air capabilities and it knocks down, allowing you to convert off of it for free, a lot of the time without even using your otg. what other projectile in the game gives you all that?

 

[alexpi]

2. He was throwing plane + assist+ teleport + bomb + teleport back. This lockdown was AMAZINGLY good. It was actually fun to play against although really difficult. But it put my blocking to the test. I don't mind it but it sounds like a lot of people think its too broken. Coming from MvC2, this isn't that bad. Go play spiral with drones to see why.

Current Peacock has me doing PBGC jump more than I've done in years. It's weird not pushing buttons with a PBGC

 

[Calexe]

What other projectile in the game gives you all that?

Dive of Horus. Anti air capabilities, knocks down and you can convert without OTG.

But... It was just a suggestion.

 

[gllt]

I really like BB jMK2 after looking at Jim's stuff and taking it to the lab. I almost wish the 2nd iteration was the 1st, heh.
The more gravity it has, the much better and more useful it feels. I'm good with keeping it for sure.

 

[Masqman]

Dive of Horus. Anti air capabilities, knocks down and you can convert without OTG.

But... It was just a suggestion.

Horus is unsafe and grab/any fast attackable before it even comes onto the screen. The only way to punish H luger is with some dash shenanigans assuming it whiffs otherwise it's like what -6 or something? Which isn't punishable by most of the cast w/o meter (especially with the stepback).


Also, H luger is already extremely freaking good my dude just cause it's not as fast doesn't make it as say tear or even horus comparable. If anything I'd say make it slower but that's just me.

 

[skull person]

Horus is unsafe and grab/any fast attackable before it even comes onto the screen. The only way to punish H luger is with some dash shenanigans assuming it whiffs otherwise it's like what -6 or something? Which isn't punishable by most of the cast w/o meter (especially with the stepback).

It's +0 on block.
Unsafe on chicken block.

 

[dekillsage]

I'm not even sure if @dekillsage noticed it or came up on his end but it happened A LOT.

Didn't happen on my end. I would just get hit and freeze for like a second in hitstun.

 

[Cadenza]

Dive of horus doesnt make eliza take a step back and snap her fingers. Just to say that bit

 

[havick9]

Dive of horus doesnt make eliza take a step back

Eliza can cancel the first few frames of sHP with Dive of horus that will make her move back a little bit which isn't really the same but yeah

 

[Masqman]

It's +0 on block.
Unsafe on chicken block.

Oh, apparently I'm mistaken. However that still doesn't negate the fact that you can grab her before Horus actually hits you on most blockstrings, AND unless you kara it with sHP it will either outright whiff and she won't take a "step" back. Also to go along with that those lines I'm fairly certain that H luger is like +0 as well (point blank).

 

[skull person]

Oh, apparently I'm mistaken. However that still doesn't negate the fact that you can grab her before Horus actually hits you on most blockstrings.

Bird hits standing Filia on the 19th frame.
Luger hits on the 17th frame.
There's only a 3F difference where you can throw Eliza but you can't throw Double.

you can grab her before Horus actually hits you on most blockstrings

Most..?

Frame traps vs Grab:

cMK x 2 > Bird
cMK x 1 > Bird
cMP x 2 > Bird
sHK x 1 > Bird
sHK x 2 > Bird
sHP x3/2/1 > Bird

Those seem to cover the important ones because she doesn't have a reason to use Bird after a jab unless it's for mix up.

-

I don't think Luger needs to be changed.
Double is fine.
Focus should be Fukua, Beowulf and Peacock because Mike and others want to do things with her.

 

[Fuego]

Focus should be Fukua and Beowulf.

 

[Masqman]

Bird hits standing Filia on the 19th frame.
Luger hits on the 17th frame.
There's only a 3F difference where you can throw Eliza but you can't throw Double.


Most..?

Frame traps vs Grab:

cMK x 2 > Bird
cMK x 1 > Bird
cMP x 2 > Bird
sHK x 1 > Bird
sHK x 2 > Bird
sHP x3/2/1 > Bird

Those seem to cover the important ones because she doesn't have a reason to use Bird after a jab unless it's for mix up.

-

I don't think Luger needs to be changed.
Double is fine.
Focus should be Fukua, Beowulf and Peacock because Mike and others want to do things with her.

Idk man I've been grabbed out of literally all of those but tbh it doesn't really matter no one wanted Double changed.

 

[skull person]

Idk man I've been grabbed out of literally all of those but tbh it doesn't really matter no one wanted Double changed.

Go into training mode and check my work vs Filia if you want.

Could be wrong.

 

[PleasureCutWind]

M shadow into c.mp does not result in c.mp pushing the opponent towards Fukua. Was this intended cause I'm looking at patch notes and can't find when this change was made. It limits several reset options I have off m shadow with this change.

Also speaking of m shadow there seems to be an issue with anchor points for certain frames of animation. This was done using m shadow facing right.

Spoiler

I don't think Fukua should face the opposite direction on certain frames cause it leads to miss inputs on combos and reset attempts that people may have.

Here is the distance c.mp pushes after m shadow.

Spoiler

And just for comparison here is normal c.mp at the same range

Spoiler

This is actually really wack, does anyone have an explanation of this? I've recorded what it looks like for anyone who doesn't understand what @joshb911 is saying. Cr.mp works normally unless it directly follows m.shadow.

 

[Zidiane]

This is actually really wack, does anyone have an explanation of this? I've recorded what it looks like for anyone who doesn't understand what @joshb911 is saying. Cr.mp works normally unless it directly follows m.shadow.

It looks like m shadow is reversing the hit effect of c.mp. It's acting as if it's hitting in reverse. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like.

 

[Cadenza]

Ok two things.

1. this bomb into teleport mess. Can it be adjusted? I get the point of Peacock is to be obnoxious. Nothing really to say more about it.
2. can parasoul's jab's frame data not be -6, -7? Hopefully -3,-4 instead?

Edit: will provide video on para later

 

[Zidiane]

I was messing with Peacock. The time it takes to throw a bomb is always at least the time it takes to be able to teleport behind them after an assist. So fullscreen she can like call heavy bomber and throw mk bomb then tp to make it crossup or not crossup and get a combo either way she tps (the asssist hits so soon after she drops in the hole that it doesn't feel reactable at all). If she lands an m bang, if they tech forward it's the perfect range for like hp lnl assist to crossup and be backed by a bomb. If they block, it seems like she has enough time to dash back or jump, IAD j.hk back before they can move. The act of throwing the bomb, tp, asssit call, assist being blocked, and the bomb being blocked gives her a decent chunk of meter, too.

I think her teleporting out of bombs is a fun idea but I think letting her crossup with an assist out (in this way) is too much

 

[SonicFox]

This is actually really wack, does anyone have an explanation of this? I've recorded what it looks like for anyone who doesn't understand what @joshb911 is saying. Cr.mp works normally unless it directly follows m.shadow.

OK LONG STORY SHORT
I have found really dumb setups almost equivalent to prepatch M shadow stuff. If I just did cr.MP after M shadow i can get an even better left right than before with this and even MORE damage at max undizzy right back into the same loop that EVERY character has to hold. Part of the old nerf of M shadow was to get rid of the annoying loop. BUt all I did was introduce a new one. Its still experimentation but no you aren't going to get the loop you desire :P

 

[JDbbx]

Hello I've been without internet for a bit so I haven't commented on this before but I very much dislike K > P priority for Val

*snip*

I think maybe the people who wanted it to be K > P are probably M Bomber players since that's pretty much the only assist I can think of where K > P is more practical

 

[joshb911]

OK LONG STORY SHORT
I have found really dumb setups almost equivalent to prepatch M shadow stuff. If I just did cr.MP after M shadow i can get an even better left right than before with this and even MORE damage at max undizzy right back into the same loop that EVERY character has to hold. Part of the old nerf of M shadow was to get rid of the annoying loop. BUt all I did was introduce a new one. Its still experimentation but no you aren't going to get the loop you desire :P

You do know you can still do those setups. The rule for c.mp is as follows: m shadow, c.mp (c.mp pushes opponent opposite direction of which way Fukua is facing). There is a particular frame where Fukua faces the opposite direction during m shadow. If the intent is to remove that vortex setup then m shadow should not cause a side switch. Here is a video of what I'm talking about.

Spoiler

If that stays in Fukua can still do those setups and they are jank and are inconsistent but are still there

 

[SonicFox]

You do know you can still do those setups. The rule for c.mp is as follows: m shadow, c.mp (c.mp pushes opponent opposite direction of which way Fukua is facing). There is a particular frame where Fukua faces the opposite direction during m shadow. If the intent is to remove that vortex setup then m shadow should not cause a side switch. Here is a video of what I'm talking about.

Spoiler

If that stays in Fukua can still do those setups and they are jank and are inconsistent but are still there

Thats an awfully weird thing actually lol
@Mike_Z

 

[Zidiane]

Here's that Peacock bomb setup I mentioned. Builds a bunch of meter and can be made left or right blockable with the same hk tp and slightly different timing.

 

[joshb911]

Also regarding Fukua. If the goal is to remove loops then here are other loops she can do that every character has to hold.

S.lk,c.mk,,c.hp,l shadow, c.mp
C.lk,c.mp,c.hp,h shadow,c.lk, c.mp
S.lp, s.mp, l shadow, s.lk, c.mp

So common factor in all of these is c.mp. If the intent is to remove loops then c.mp should be changed.

 

[Cattfish]

I remember when Parasoul's air to air raw j.HP wasn't combo-able and you needed j. LP > j.HP in order to combo. Beowulf chair j.HP is a little ridiculous and I think it should undergo the same changes that Parasoul's giant ranged aerial went through. Make it knock down the opponent and let them tech if done raw. Force beowulf to need j.HK instead of "why this button when I have THIS BUTTON." Make Beowulf play a little smarter. He has fun footsies if you look past the obscene range. J.MP is a good jump-back button that J.HP overshadows. Decrease how fast it takes for j.HP to hit even.

 

[Huffy]

I remember when Parasoul's air to air raw j.HP wasn't combo-able and you needed j. LP > j.HP in order to combo. Beowulf chair j.HP is a little ridiculous and I think it should undergo the same changes that Parasoul's giant ranged aerial went through. Make it knock down the opponent and let them tech if done raw. Force beowulf to need j.HK instead of "why this button when I have THIS BUTTON." Make Beowulf play a little smarter. He has fun footsies if you look past the obscene range. J.MP is a good jump-back button that J.HP overshadows. Decrease how fast it takes for j.HP to hit even.

Not sure I agree with that change in particular but a slight nerf to jhp would be good for the character. He has so many fun neutral tools that go often unused because of it.

 

[Masqman]

Beo jHP.

I'm going to disagree because I'm fairly certain the point of that move is to be a gigantic sword normal that easily convertible that you lose when you go into chairless. Chairless forces you to use those other tools because you've now gotten rid of that ridiculously good tool. Now I think one of the best ways to make that tool not as abusable is to make it more of a reward to go into chairless. No one really goes into chairless rn except in combos where you end with the chair. So making there be some way to incentivise extended chairless use (i.e. hype increase via chairless, altered hitboxes?, IDK) would effectively solve the problem. w/o taking away the supposedly intended design usage of the tool. If it wasn't supposed to be like that then fine but there are plenty of giant WTF air normals that don't knock down and are kinda dumb for w/e ever reason.

 

[Zidiane]

Beowulf chair j.HP is a little ridiculous and I think it should undergo the same changes that Parasoul's giant ranged aerial went through.

j.hp doesn't knockdown and give a full combo conversion if it hits tho. I think you can combo off lower heights and if you're close enough I think you can do the wulf cannon thing, but it isn't the same as what Parasoul's j.hp used to be. You can't combo off of jumping back j.hp vs air either without meter, I don't think.

I don't play Beowulf, but just looking at his moves I'm pretty sure j.hp is really slow. If you are in the range where you can land j.hk, you should probably be jumping at them with j.lp, j.hk anyway for a 8f conversion rather than a 16f poke. I don't think changing the thing you wanna change will do the thing you want it to do, and I think there are already incentives to use other options in his chair-on toolkit already in the game.

 

[Huffy]

j.hp is really slow.

It's 16f.

For comparison Painwheel's jmp is 22f, Double's jhp is 17f and Parasoul's jhp is 14f.

 

[Kyugetsuki]

I remember when Parasoul's air to air raw j.HP wasn't combo-able and you needed j. LP > j.HP in order to combo. Beowulf chair j.HP is a little ridiculous and I think it should undergo the same changes that Parasoul's giant ranged aerial went through. Make it knock down the opponent and let them tech if done raw. Force beowulf to need j.HK instead of "why this button when I have THIS BUTTON." Make Beowulf play a little smarter. He has fun footsies if you look past the obscene range. J.MP is a good jump-back button that J.HP overshadows. Decrease how fast it takes for j.HP to hit even.

Going to disagree a lot. j.HP is a great spacing tool that requires good spacing skills to make the most out of it. j.HP does not overshadow any of the other buttons. In your example, j.hk is used to restand in combos and is barely used in neutral due to its short range, and its hitbox doesn't stay out very long. Also unlike Cerebella who has a similar move looking move(though a bit different), Beowulf can't get as high as her. In closer ranges, raw j.hp is dangerous because its slow. I use j.lk, j.hp, wulf blitzer. That usually lets me convert or or help me a void a negative chicken block situation. It is also a terrible idea to use j.hp when the opponent is far above you. While it does have a vertical hitbox at the beginning, its not a great air to air in that situation as it could easily whiff. You know what does have obscene range tho? His s.hp :) Good thing that has 21 frames start up.

 

[Zidiane]

It's 16f.

For comparison Painwheel's jmp is 22f, Double's jhp is 17f and Parasoul's jhp is 14f.

Really slow compared to his j.lp which you should be using instead when in range for a j.hk anyway (he wanted to incentivize j.hk). If you jump at people in the air at a range they can grab you or poke with a light, you shouldn't be using 16f moves.

 

[Huffy]

Really slow compared to his j.lp which you should be using instead when in range for a j.hk anyway (he wanted to incentivize j.hk). If you jump at people in the air at a range they can grab you or poke with a light, you shouldn't be using 16f moves.

Of course, just saying it's not that slow for a move with that kind of range.

When I said other neutral tools I meant things like shp, chp and sweep, they're all really fun to use but jhp is much better in most situations.

 

[Kyugetsuki]

Of course, just saying it's not that slow for a move with that kind of range.

When I said other neutral tools I meant things like shp, chp and sweep, they're all really fun to use but jhp is much better in most situations.

I use all of those buttons in neutral because of the simple fact that I believed j.hp would've been a worse move in the situation. Both s.hp and cr.hp are a far better anti-air that j.hp. cr.hp has a faster start up and since you are on the ground you can cancel to something. s.hp has HUGE range, is cancelable and harder to react that jump->j.hp AND you actually can convert with it with wulf blitzer. Sweep is an amazing tool chair-on. Special cancelable if it whiffs and enemy goes over you, a VERY far range low, further than j.hp and makes for a great trap with command grab. I think you are undermining the power of Beowulf's other tools and putting j.hp too far above them.

 

[Cattfish]

A lot of people replied and being on mobile I cant quite quote everyone, sorry.
I didn't make myself clear enough on the j.hk so oops my mistake. Not j.hk for neutral, you're all right that would be pointless. Didn't mean for it to gain so much focus: it would be neat if the move had some versatility outside of flashy combos but it's not entirely necessary.

Squigly j.HP is 16f and is a good tool to keep her opponent at bay from afar but I feel like Beowulf's is more effective for him than the reward she gains from hers. Chair j.HP has a good deal of hitstun + sometimes combos after it? I understand that it's not all of the time but it does a better job of keeping the opponent down in general.

Jump back + button assumes that the opponent jumped back too, which j.LP may very well whiff on. Actually j.MP might whiff too hmm... I'll try and check that.

I guess it's just that it's a very active offense tool and provides a good deal of questionable cross ups, so having it be very handy in neutral just feels like a bit much.

I agree with giving chairless some more things, that would be really nice to have big reasons to use it.

 

[Masqman]

Squigly j.HP is 16f and is a good tool to keep her opponent at bay from afar but I feel like Beowulf's is more effective for him than the reward she gains from hers.

Not sure about other Squigly's but every time I use jHP I either get command grabbed poked into stupid confirm (H luger, Car>Dynamo into corner combo). I feel like that button is way better as a combo/reset tool than a ranged neutral tool. It feels like just about every character has a noncommittal way of dealing with that button at neutral.

Robo: beam, magnet, 1 of her 1000 anti-air>beam or magnet (this is actually a hilarious interaction, scooped)
Para: depending on where she is either cHP>sniper or Bike into sniper
Painwheel: buer (this happens so damn much to me ;-;), armor, unfly>things
Cerebella: lolcow just push a button, my dude
Double: H luger, straight luger, putting jHK in the air a lot stops it, Puddle p much forces you to not use that button while it's out or you die.
Beo: sHP,cHP, Airwulf on reaction, I've seen sHP chairless work, of course, I might be remembering what happened wrong
Eliza: Horus, sMP into shenanigans
Cat Lady: lolcow just run forward she can't hit you
Peacock: (Especially in beta) teleport, item drop p much anywhere, things
Squigly: I actually haven't dealt with this much but I know I did SBO a lot but I'm sure she has something for it.
Band: Extend!!!, cMP etc. etc.
Fukua/Filia- antiair>into stuff? Shadows not really familiar with that matchup tbh.

ofc some will be better than others but this is just off the top of my head. I would say Beowulf's is better by far in neutral but I'm also fairly certain it's supposed to be.

Also, I'm not sure as to why comparing moves straight on (i.e. projectile, moves) is a thing now. just because someone else has a tool that does a thing doesn't mean it's supposed to be the same thing as another character's. Fukua fireballs don't serve the same purpose as other people fireballs, Mortuary drop doesn't serve the same purpose as Wulf shoot.

 

[dekillsage]

WOW TRY AIR BLOCKING J.HP AND GETTING A LAND CANCEL PUNISH INTO RESETS INTO ALL HIS HEALTH CUZ HIS HURT BOX GOES FROM [] TO [ ] SO ITS TIME TO BLOCK SOME SHIT AND YOU AIN'T BLOCKING IT SORRY MY CAPS BUTTON IS MESSED UP RIGHT NOW AND I DON'T WANT TO HOLD SHIFT TO TYPE LOL

 

[MegamanDS]

Also regarding Fukua. If the goal is to remove loops then here are other loops she can do that every character has to hold.

S.lk,c.mk,,c.hp,l shadow, c.mp
C.lk,c.mp,c.hp,h shadow,c.lk, c.mp
S.lp, s.mp, l shadow, s.lk, c.mp

So common factor in all of these is c.mp. If the intent is to remove loops then c.mp should be changed.

I've been doing those loop resets since vanilla... It's not possible to get rid of every 50/50 in the game. She's not the only character that has reset vortex city. I don't know why you guys are trying to crucify her as the end all be all of resets. Double's jumping fp vortex hasn't even been brought up.

 

[dekillsage]

If she has loops its w/e as long as its not as godlike as it was before. Before it was like hey you can't push a button or air super so you have to guess and you couldn't react to her moving either cuz she could jump and hit you same side so just guess. Close your eyes and guess, just close them. Believe in what's inside, you're going to block that shit.

You didn't block it and took 4k into another.

 

[MegamanDS]

If she has loops its w/e as long as its not as godlike as it was before. Before it was like hey you can't push a button or air super so you have to guess and you couldn't react to her moving either cuz she could jump and hit you same side so just guess. Close your eyes and guess, just close them. Believe in what's inside, you're going to block that shit.

You didn't block it and took 4k into another.

Isn't double the same way right now? The only way out of it was the same way out as Fukua's vortex. Isn't your beo 50/50 an extra 4-5k at full green bar right now? I'm not saying it to be argumentative, I'm just saying it to bring up the fact that it's not just Fukua who can do this type of stuff.

 

[Cattfish]

truth from the heart

I know about land cancelling thanks friendo. Its not really about me being salty about losing to Beo a lot; it's just that I'm general that's a big button to him considering that he could potentially use more tools (which usually seems to be the goal in some character changes). I guess if i do get miffed I'm just in an area of "wow that hits from deep but no normal quite reaches him and he sticks his boot out and maybe we trade cool" but I'm not saying his range should go.