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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

Huffy said:
Don't know, Mike wants to remove hard knockdown loops because they're boring, so I pointed it out.
Yeah I'm not disagreeing that it's a loop I was just wondering why you brought it up before and you answered me.
The fact that it exists in general is probably enough to convince Mike just makes me worry about what it means for other Beowulf players.

A change that could be possible is make press slam or dog star press the only finishers that give hype when you have none (without landing on chair obviously) considering you either can't combo off of it (dog star press) or is unusable in this loop (press slam). Which would be a nerf in general but would fix this particular "problem" without removing that feature all together.
Edit: And chair dance I guess, but I still don't know when I would ever want to use this version of chair dance in general.
 
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Datagram said:
Okay, this is getting silly.

The game already has high-low unblockable protection. As I understand it, that type of setup is a way to circumvent that protection, resulting in a setup that is almost impossible to block.
The game also has crossup protection for characters that are in blockstun. Land-cancel setups are a way to circumvent that protection, resulting in a setup that is almost impossible to block.

Surely you can see the similarities here. Now I'm all for discussing one thing at a time, and it was not my intention to derail the original discussion. I just want to make sure we don't forget that both types of setups exist. Because to me, dealing with one and not the other is a little silly.
I do not agree that the Deer setup is impossible to block, or almost impossible to block. Deer does it to me (what with it being his setup that he invented) and I can block it. You have a generous amount of time to switch from holding left to holding right. You have to know it's coming to block it, but that's true for any reset.
 
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FuLLBLeeD said:
So uhh...any other Fortune want to comment on the changes?
Personally I still think QCF for zoom is worth a shot.
I would vastly prefer it'd stay f/b/df/db+HP for Zoom. Also prefer the previous implementation for moving the head.
 
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PME said:
I would vastly prefer it'd stay f/b/df/db+HP for Zoom. Also prefer the previous implementation for moving the head.

I'm hearing that most Fortune players actually liked the previous implementation. The patch notes seemed to indicate otherwise, which I wasn't sure was the case.
 
Lenny is still getting pulled by Robo's super laser
 
Mike_Z said:
I hope you are aware that this sentiment expresses the opposite of what you intended it to. :^P

I don't see it. Did I miss something or did I mess up trying to make two separate arguments. My main issue is that Squigly's level 3 just feels like Catellites and that's just not exciting. Mechanically, I'm kinda OK with where it's at, but the "wow" factor just doesn't feel there.
 
headbutt on 2hp feels not good and I do not enjoy it. The change to zoom feels pretty good and I do enjoy it. Nothing I did previously did not get messed up by the zoom change, but I don't know the rekka loops. I feel like the zoom change will be good for encouraging me to use the walk, which I don't do enough. Most of the time that I tried to use the walk was to move the head closer to the body after the match ends to make the win thing faster.

Also I forgot to mention this when people were talking about parries for some reason, but one of the things that is very frustrating as big band, is when you try to do something like m brass when you know there's a tight reset and take the hit with armor, sometimes you'll get an incidental parry. This means that because of the parry happening instead of just taking the hit with brass, brass comes out just a little bit later, then maybe you take a hit with armor so hitstop slows you down a little, and then you get blocked and punished. I guess the solution to this right now is to just cancel to ssj as soon as possible if you get a parry/armor something from the point. I don't know what a good solution to fix this on my end is, maybe end brass in downforward and hope there isnt an assist/projectile/low hitting me. I also can't think of any kind of future change that could fix this either so I don't know I guess.

edit: I made this post right before todays changes nice hustle me
 
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@Fizzxwizz For what it's worth, I really enjoy being able to Zoom during the "downbacking stare-off" situations
 
Chair pick-up on EX canis major press was removed. Was this intentional? It was not mentioned in the patch notes. I liked having it pick-up chair.
 
@ Fortune players
The input for Zoom hasn't changed since Retail, unless you count walk->release->tap being an extra thing before now. It has ALWAYS been any F or any B + release HP. Can someone clarify why people are saying otherwise? You can still do it instantaneously by inputting the same thing as Retail, it's just that it'll walk around if you continue holding HP after pressing it.

@People with broken replays
Replays from recent builds, right?
Augh.

Huffy said:
That was unrelated to the earlier thing, Mike just said he can't do hard knockdown loops at max undizzy, he can.
No, I said he couldn't generate 2 hype with combos into hard knockdown at max undizzy, and you misread it. :^P He can certainly do some damage into it again if you're leaving yourself at zero hype.

AlcoholicRobot said:
Interesting, the idea that it works on Eliza is what surprises me most because she was always the odd one out on falling out of beobrass combos so that's quite something to hear.
The patch notes from forever ago said:
Fix position of Eliza’s on-back OTG frames relative to other characters; fixes Beowulf air Killa+Brass, among other things. (Bang Camaro, me)

PME said:
Lenny is still getting pulled by Robo's super laser
Better description, video, or (working) replay?

HASJ said:
View attachment 13990
I think this might be a new bug?
Eliza did Sekhmet super so I could DHC into Sniper, it didn't come out, Parasoul blocked Sekhmet and called H.Theonite Beam.
Sekhmet got hit with the lasers in mid-air, died and stood there.
Couldn't move but Parasoul could. Sekhmet was invulnerable.
Tried to reproduce this a bunch of times and couldn't.

RemiKz said:
Chair pick-up on EX canis major press was removed. Was this intentional? It was not mentioned in the patch notes. I liked having it pick-up chair.
Wasn't intentional.
 
Mike_Z said:
Better description, video, or (working) replay?
Oh, I guess I never specified the... ok yeah. Robo and Peacock are not on the same team. This is Robo's lv 1/3 laser super versus an opposing Peacock's Lenny.
 
So, I really like the idea of giving regular Canis Major a purpose. This change feels pretty good, although there seems to be a few situations where the opponent isn't put the extra distance away from Beowulf as you'd like:


These are the only situations that I have found this happens in thus far.


While on this topic, I don't understand why in-super Canis Major doesn't grant the old HKD any longer. For spending a meter, it doesn't seems too powerful at all (especially now that finishers onto the chair only build 1 hype). It was honestly one of the only things helping me stick to Beo, and it was removed within a day. ]:
 
Hi, I noticed something last week when I played with Liam; Eliza sometimes wouldn't launch when H Upper Kaht hit. It turns out, if H Upper Kaht is blocked by the point but still hits an assist, Eliza is still incapable of launching at all. Surprisingly, a blocked s.mp or c.hp will still let Eliza launch as long as it hits the assist.
Is this intentional? This behavior also appears to be consistent for Eliza across retail.
 
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PME said:
Oh, I guess I never specified the... ok yeah. Robo and Peacock are not on the same team. This is Robo's lv 1/3 laser super versus an opposing Peacock's Lenny.
::gives you a look::
 
Mike_Z said:
The input for Zoom hasn't changed since Retail, unless you count walk->release->tap being an extra thing before now. It has ALWAYS been any F or any B + release HP. Can someone clarify why people are saying otherwise?
You couldn't do rekka loops by negative edging after the first change, so you had to either zoom earlier or double tap.


But I really like the current head movement, headless feels like it did before but now I also have the option of not having a button come out when I release hp, out of all the versions we tried this is my favorite by far.

Mike_Z said:
patch notes from forever ago
Actually, this reminds me, Eliza still does that thing from a long time ago where if you moved forward towards an opponent ground teching on the corner you would side switch a few characters. To reproduce it with fortune just do c.hp j.lk j.hk on eliza in the corner and dash towards her, she'll tech and side switch.
 
Paging Beowulf players, once you recover, please let me know how this Canis Major feels.

Fuego said:
situations
Wat the heck...lemme look into that.

Fuego said:
While on this topic, I don't understand why in-super Canis Major doesn't grant the old HKD any longer. For spending a meter, it doesn't seems too powerful at all (especially now that finishers onto the chair only build 1 hype). It was honestly one of the only things helping me stick to Beo, and it was removed within a day. ]:
I think it's the same bug that makes EX not pick up the chair.

BlueFeena said:
Hi, I noticed something last week when I played with Liam; Eliza sometimes wouldn't launch when H Upper Kaht hit. It turns out, if H Upper Kaht is blocked by the point but still hits an assist, Eliza is still incapable of launching at all. Surprisingly, a blocked s.mp or c.hp will still let Eliza launch as long as it hits the assist.
Is this intentional? This behavior also appears to be consistent for Eliza across retail.
I want to reward the person for correctly blocking, even with assists.
Normal attacks are not invincible, whereas her DP is. Since you typically DP out of assist-based pressure, allowing her to jumpcancel if it touched the assist would make it unpunishable very often.
As it's the only example of a jump-cancelled special move in the game, the behavior rule is "normals you can jump cancel if it hit anything, specials you can't jump cancel if it was blocked at all."

CaioLugon said:
Actually, this reminds me, Eliza still does that thing from a long time ago where if you moved forward towards an opponent ground teching on the corner you would side switch a few characters. To reproduce it with fortune just do c.hp j.lk j.hk on eliza in the corner and dash towards her, she'll tech and side switch.
Feel free to give me a list of who you can side switch against, but I can't guarantee they'll get fixed. :^P
 
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@Mike_Z
This is what PME is talking about:
We both weren't sure if you knew exactly what he meant when he explained this to you the first time, so here it is. Lv.1 and Lv.3 cannon pulls Lenny, while Lv.5 pushes him. Obviously at full screen it means nothing, but imagine finally getting a hit on peacock, just out of Lenny explosion range and doing a simple LMH xx Special xx Cannon and having Lenny pulled into you and dying for it(It's happened to both of us, to me, at least twice).

 
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I am okay with the new Dog Star Press in some situations but scared of it in others. +2 medium distance from them puts you at the range to do a grab or a low mix up but any other options (overhead, command grab, ect) are then unsafe to wake up jab ect, not to mention all set ups from the current press are very mashable.

Especially from Bella, if you try this version of dog star press against Bella and have her set to merry go rilla as reversal it beats both the low and grab mix up since they are only +2 and that's a 5 frame command grab (most of the time, training is weird about that moves frame data) and if you try to jump to avoid the grab or do a command grab of your own to make "The hardest of reads" you lose to c.lk or jab ect. Not to mention that after dog star press if bella wakes up devil horns into showstopper on whiff it beats out more or less anything beowulf would do with those +2 frames other than upback because it beats out c.lk. I don't play Bella so this may all be wrong and beowulf has other options that beat out hers that I just haven't tested, but honestly it makes me scared to do this version of dog star press vs her personally. Then again I'm scared to look at Bella in an actual match in general so this is my opinions.

I'm not saying nerf Bella obviously, it just feels like I am at the losing end of that exchange if I do non-ex star press on her, like instead of having advantage I'm the one needing to not get hit by THEIR mix up.

I had no reason to use the previous version of dog star press anyway so this is an improvement in most situations in that its not return to complete neutral, but I rarely see myself wanting to use it from an advantage point of view and more of a "If I accidentally do this that's okay".

Those are my initial reactions at least, gonna need to test it more.
 
Headless feels good, I had no problems with the earlier version (attack doesn't come out if you hold the button) but the current one seems better.

Only problems I have with the character right now are nom randomly going one way or the other after hitting the opponent (the same exact combo doesn't work on both player 1 and player 2 side) and rekka zoom being a bit inconsistent on some characters. The hitbox could be made a tiny bit taller but that would make it better in neutral too, so I don't know.
 
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I played the beta for like 2 hours last night. No one is going to believe me, but I didn't hit with any road rollers for that entire set, so I don't have any feedback one way or the other to give about those changes.
 
Huffy said:
Only problems I have with the character right now are nom randomly going one way or the other after hitting the opponent
This. If you side switch during nom from player 1 side the head goes the wrong way, but the same doesn't happen from player 2 side.
 
mcpeanuts said:
I played the beta for like 2 hours last night. No one is going to believe me, but I didn't hit with any road rollers for that entire set, so I don't have any feedback one way or the other to give about those changes.
mcpeanuts said:
I played the beta for like 2 hours last night. No one is going to believe me, but I didn't hit with any road rollers for that entire set, so I don't have any feedback one way or the other to give about those changes.
So you're saying someone blocked all you road rollers? What wizardry is this?
 
I like this new test better than the old test but I never had a problem with how headless worked before either of these tests.
 
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RE: special jump cancel stuff

what about headless Fortune DP? that's not invul. (granted I do not want headless to be able to jump cancel in that situation I'm just saying)
 
Masqman said:
RE: special jump cancel stuff

what about headless Fortune DP? that's not invul. (granted I do not want headless to be able to jump cancel in that situation I'm just saying)
"normals you can jump cancel if it hit anything, specials you can't jump cancel if it was blocked at all."
It's a special move, therefore if it is blocked it cannot be jump cancelled. It doesn't matter if it is an invincible move or not.
 
Lex said:
It's a special move, therefore if it is blocked it cannot be jump canceled. It doesn't matter if it is an invincible move or not.
Yeah, I was just saying that it [Upper khat] wasn't the only one jump cancellable special. That being said I now recant the statement cause it does not really jump-cancel. It has a followup you can perform that puts you in the air. Before I was thinking that the logic was flawed but everything worked out.

And as far as I'm aware [I currently do not have the ability to check due to location], she actually can in that situation? ofc I could be remembering wrong.
 
Masqman said:
Yeah, I was just saying that it [Upper khat] wasn't the only one jump cancellable special. That being said I now recant the statement cause it does not really jump-cancel. It has a followup you can perform that puts you in the air. Before I was thinking that the logic was flawed but everything worked out.

And as far as I'm aware [I currently do not have the ability to check due to location], she actually can in that situation? ofc I could be remembering wrong.
Fortune can't cancel Fiber if it is blocked at all, even if it hits the assist or only one of it's hits is blocked.
 
Stuff said:
I like this new test better than the old test but I never had a problem with how headless worked before either of these tests.
I'm with Stuff on this one. Ordering them as: Retail, Test 1-3. I prefer them (from least favored to most) as Test 2, Retail, Test 3, and Test 1. If we stick with the current test, I'd be fine with it too.
 
@ everyone

How's this iteration of unblockable protection?

AlcoholicRobot said:
and if you try to jump to avoid the grab or do a command grab of your own to make "The hardest of reads" you lose to c.lk or jab ect. Not to mention that after dog star press if bella wakes up devil horns into showstopper on whiff it beats out more or less anything beowulf would do with those +2 frames other than upback because it beats out c.lk.
Time out. This is what "yomi layers" means. It means you have an option (c.LK/c.LP) that beats some of their options (c.LK, s.LP, MGR), and they have an option that beats that (360), and you have an option that beats that (hop attack), and they have an option that beats that....etc. So you have to make a decision. This is normal play.

If you want the REGULAR version to leave you with the ability to do something that beats most of their options, I think you missed the point, that's why there is an EX version.
I'm okay making it +3 or MAYBE +4, but in terms of you getting actual no-guess pressure - no. There should still be a reason to use the EX one.

@PME / @Stuff
So Test 1 = double-tap after moving, Test 2 = Headbutt is D, Test 3 = D is nothing?
I was told by some people that Test 1 made rekka-Zoom harder because you had to double tap, so this is an attempt to make that better and still not require an attack after moving.
 
Mike_Z said:
So Test 1 = double-tap after moving, Test 2 = Headbutt is D, Test 3 = D is nothing?
Yup
I was told by some people that Test 1 made rekka-Zoom harder because you had to double tap, so this is an attempt to make that better and still not require an attack after moving.
It looked like half of us were having trouble with rekka loops with Test 1. If we have to compromise with Test 3, I'd be fine with it as a middle ground.
 
Mike_Z said:
So Test 1 = double-tap after moving, Test 2 = Headbutt is D, Test 3 = D is nothing?
Test 3 all the way for me.

I was told by some people that Test 1 made rekka-Zoom harder because you had to double tap, so this is an attempt to make that better and still not require an attack after moving.
And for this reason.
 
I like the new unblockable protection. 18 felt like too much and 6 felt like I would block something but then I would go back and I was like 3 to 4 frames late. 9 seems like a good thing. All my setups involving meaty overheads work but the have to be a little slower but that's fair.
 
Mike_Z said:
@ everyone

How's this iteration of unblockable protection?


Time out. This is what "yomi layers" means.
I know I know I am not saying it needs to get super buffed or anything, I'm just saying the way I personally play and my own personal comfort zone it doesn't feel right with. I'm sure its fine overall I was just giving how I felt about it, it's not like every player has to be happy with every option available. If I feel like dog star press is dangerous for me in a situation I won't use it its as simple as that. I only feel its particularly scary to use against bella atm because it puts you at the range she wants you at that's the only point I made, I wasn't saying it needs to be changed, it's definitely better than the other version.
 
upload_2016-11-7_20-15-12.png

Gemology 2 is gonna look a lot like gemology 1, huh.
At least this time I can make sure the cool stuff is recorded before it becomes uncool...

btw, didn't read if that was mentioned, but the super doesn't have to actually connect. Doing any super on whiff while squigly is in hitstun also makes the lvl3 disappear.
 
dragonos451 said:
btw, didn't read if that was mentioned, but the super doesn't have to actually connect. Doing any super on whiff while squigly is in hitstun also makes the lvl3 disappear.

This is actually true of Val's level 3 poisons, too. Remember a couple times when level 3 poison disappeared and I wasn't hit by a super, but was never able to figure out the reason why.

Edit: formatting
 
I would just like to say that I vastly prefer this iteration of unblockable protection.
 
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3-4 of my go to high-low resets are still being auto-blocked with the new feature. I'm not too happy but I'll look for a work around if this stays.

Also, I finally captured this. It happens not too often, but when it does, it's a bit annoying. Not sure if worth fixing.

 
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