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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Sorry
I just don't see how a match up where you can just get in after blocking 2 projectiles and then putting your opponent in infinite pressure is even.

Double gets outsped, outpressured, has shit reversals, luger -> car doesn't do a lot of damage and hardly works after parasoul is in j.lp range which is the length of a parasoul dash.

Comparing the two
Double wins the zoning game IF they play the zoning game. Parasoul doesn't have to throw out anything. Stop thinking she does.
Double has to bait pillar in order to reset parasoul on the ground, while parasoul doesn't have to bait **** and can just pressure double as she pleases because if double does ANYTHING she'll get swatted.
Double can't do jumping hp vs parasoul if parasoul jumps, and has to try and land a lugar from point blank if parasoul is in j.lp range. If double try's to airthrow she risks getting hit, that's player vs player but its a much better situation for parasoul to try to work with.
Parasouls normals are just straight up faster than doubles too. I'm not outspeeding or beating her normals if she already threw them out.

Being able to luger-> car parasoul from FULLSCREEN doesn't somehow make this mu even. Has nothing to do with parasouls apparent lack of tools when she doesn't need to do anything to approach double but bock.
 
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guitalex2007 said:
That's... how you make tier lists.

Albeit, it would be a very incomplete one without every conceivable team/assist combination. LOL
Well I mean, this matchup chart was based on 1v1 scenarios which doesn't happen often. It can be looked at in constructing a tier list, but it's not a tier list in itself.
 
Tier lists for team games are always much more difficult and will probably remain highly contested with just a few standouts at each end that are consistently placed where they are. Different people value different aspects of characters in a team game so we are always going to have a lot of discussion (and arguments)
 
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^^ well said and having said that, parasoul double is slightly in parasouls favor not much and its much more based on skill who will win than other matchups. Seriously this could be argued till the end of time because both characters have things that give the other character problems.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I feel like too many people are trying to look at the matchup chart (which was based on 1v1 scenarios)
It really isn't. I mean, maybe it was the original intent, but.. yeah, it didn't happen. This is a "likely game scenarios" chart, ie "Point Valentine with a DP assist and possibly a lockdown one fighting point /other character/". Lack of reversals is hitting eg Val kinda hard in a 1v1 'tier list'.

I do agree that matchup chart != Tier list though, if you lose against the Top5 characters 3-7 and beat the Bottom5 characters 9-1 you get a really good score on the matchup chart, but your character is garbage.

guitalex2007 said:
What Squigly's have YOU been playing?
None that react to Pillar with Daisy Pusher, I have to admit.

dekillsage said:
Car does like how much 2k? Idk. Unless double has like 4 meters and hits you with each car getting hit by car doesn't mean ****.
2 Meters with a Painwheel or a Filia or /anygoodDHCcharacter/ in the back is .. big enough of a detriment?
I don't feel like Parasoul walks all over Double. Advantage maybe? But I'm 6-4 over Filia aka "Everything I do beats everything you do", so the same number for vsing Double seems off to me.
 
IsaVulpes said:
None that react to Pillar with Daisy Pusher, I have to admit.
I can react to Pillar with MGR if I'm looking for it. I don't find it too strange that someone could do the same thing with Daisy Pusher.
Negus Eyoel said:
View attachment 2123
I disagree with these Cerebella numbers. I'm also assuming that it's not strictly 1v1 it's talking about, cause LMFAO if you think Bella loses 4/6 against solo Peacock.

I really don't think the MsFortune matchup is really as bad as people say. Even before the beta nerfs (which I haven't been able to really play), Cerebella wasn't that fucked in this one (It certainly wasn't 3/7).

The Peacock matchup is in Cerebella's Favor. Who on earth decided Cerebella loses this matchup? Maybe back when she had three bombs and hp item, but nowadays? Even before pass through deflector, just those nerfs to Peacock's zoning allow Bella the breath she needs to get in on her.

I think the Parasoul matchup is probably in Cerebella's favor. I just don't feel like she has the tools she needs to effectively keep me out, or at least that's how it feels every time I play a Parasoul. On paper it seems like she should be able to effectively handle Cerebella, but she never seems to.

The Painwheel matchup is in Cerebella's favor. It seems very hard for Painwheel to not get shot down when in the air, so it feels like she is forced to play the ground game.
 
It's ok Zid. No one believes me when I say Squigly is favored vs Bella. We can have our crazy opinions off in the corner. I'll see what scotch i can bring
 
guitalex2007 said:
The fact that Squigly is near the bottom lets me know this whole chart is BS and should not be used in any arguments, lest you get laughed out heartily.
Squigly is near the bottom because of her aggregate matchup score relative to the same score for other characters. If you're arguing she should be higher, you are implicitly arguing that some of those matchup numbers are not correct. Which matchups from that chart, specifically, do you not agree with?
 
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I've been hearing a lot of people disagreeing with Fortune - Bella being 7 - 3. Any reasoning for this, and would you score it as?
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I've been hearing a lot of people disagreeing with Fortune - Bella being 7 - 3. Any reasoning for this, and would you score it as?
I wouldn't score it any lower than a 4/6, but I haven't been able to play you or Guita so much. I mean, the matchup can definitely be not easy, but at bare minimum I don't think it's any worse than Parasoul vs Peacock or Painwheel vs Parasoul. I would rate it a 4/6 or a 4.5/5.5 in Fortune's favor.

It feels like a lot (if not all) of Fortune's air normals get beat by Bella's air normals. Fullscreen zoom>nom gets punished by using c.mk, devil horns (If Fotune is fullscreen, nothing she does can punish Bella). Zoom>Nom beats all of Bella's armored advances, but it's not a big deal cause dash double jump forward puts you in you're-about-to-get-smacked-or-grabbed range. Bella has one of the longest range lights in the game, and can more easily punish a blocked reversal. Fortune mashing reversals doesn't really hurt Bella's resets, she can MGR through all of them if timed right. All you need is paitience for this match, kinda like the Peacock match.
 
Zidiane said:
The Peacock matchup is in Cerebella's Favor. Who on earth decided Cerebella loses this matchup? Maybe back when she had three bombs and hp item, but nowadays? Even before pass through deflector, just those nerfs to Peacock's zoning allow Bella the breath she needs to get in on her.

I did. Lets talk about this
IsaVulpes said:
2 Meters with a Painwheel or a Filia or /anygoodDHCcharacter/ in the back is .. big enough of a detriment?
I don't feel like Parasoul walks all over Double. Advantage maybe? But I'm 6-4 over Filia aka "Everything I do beats everything you do", so the same number for vsing Double seems off to me.

Once again its one of those things where if you're gonna get punished for doing stuff, then just move forward and block. You can't get punished for blocking and inching forward, and doubles gonna have to do something else once you start moving in. If you take assists into consideration, both having one helps them. But the difference is if double blocks an assist she has a much bigger chance of getting opened up than if parasoul had to block an assist.
 
Damn Squiggly Peacock is 35-65? I need to get good.
That double jumping singing woman is always in my face hopping over my stuff.
Sing xx Opera is good as long as she has a moment to move, and I can't keep her stuck in the corner the whole match so it's bound to happen eventually.
I find it tough to reposition properly for zoning after she gets too close because that's when I eat orbs.
Though I probably need to get good first.
 
Skarmand said:
Damn Squiggly Peacock is 35-65? I need to get good.
That double jumping singing woman is always in my face hopping over my stuff.
Sing xx Opera is good as long as she has a moment to move, and I can't keep her stuck in the corner the whole match so it's bound to happen eventually.
I find it tough to reposition properly for zoning after she gets too close because that's when I eat orbs.
Though I probably need to get good first.

j.hk to create a vertical wall, and to hit people jumping over you
have mp soid charged, drop it when squigly jumps over your other projectiles
j.hk back dash to create space.

The idea is, at least when I play peacock, is not to just throw projectiles all willy nilly. The goal is to make it so that if my opponent avoids some projectiles they would have to still deal with peacock herself and soid. This involves using j.mk, jhp, jhk, grabs and air dashing to make it hard to be hit. When you combine these things I don't see squigly having many options. It's possible, but her chances aren't great imo.
 
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dekillsage said:
j.hk to create a vertical wall
j.hk back dash to create space.
using j.mk, jhp, jhk, grabs and air dashing.

It sort of seems like in theory these are all great times to use sing xx opera since after defending or avoiding these you won't have a string of bombs about to hit you. I'll try more j.Hp and j.Hk though and take a look at her options in the lab though before I go any further :P
 
Skarmand said:
It sort of seems like in theory these are all great times to use sing xx opera since after defending or avoiding these you won't have a string of bombs about to hit you. I'll try more j.Hp and j.Hk though and take a look at her options in the lab though before I go any further :P

how is squigly building a charge? I only ever get a charge built vs peacock if I land a throw or full combo. I just assume that I'm playing the MU without a charge.
 
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Zidiane said:
I can react to Pillar with MGR if I'm looking for it.
Okay, do this please:
- Bella vs Parasoul
- Dummy is set to: Block All, Playback as Reversal, Crouch
- Recordings are: 1) Pillar, 2) s.LK, 3) Neutraljump j.HP
- Selected Recording is: Random
- Save State of yourself being at Point Blank against Parasoul in the corner
- Select Button: Load State
Then press c.LP and crouchblock, only cancelling the Recovery into MGR when you see Pillar startup, and standblocking the j.HP
For 10 Pillars + however many Non-Pillars she does in between (should end up being roughly 30 c.LPs, possibly more, possibly less)
Record that and give me the video
Very curious!
 
I don't know why fortune is over filia on the boob chart. You can SEE that filia has larger breasts.

I am outraged.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Which matchups from that chart, specifically, do you not agree with?
Could've sworn I mentioned Parasoul... It's also definitely not 35 against Peacock. That's laughably inaccurate, but since this is mostly theory fighting, I suppose it doesn't matter.
 
dekillsage said:
j.hk to create a vertical wall, and to hit people jumping over you
have mp soid charged, drop it when squigly jumps over your other projectiles
j.hk back dash to create space.

The idea is, at least when I play peacock, is not to just throw projectiles all willy nilly. The goal is to make it so that if my opponent avoids some projectiles they would have to still deal with peacock herself and soid. This involves using j.mk, jhp, jhk, grabs and air dashing to make it hard to be hit. When you combine these things I don't see squigly having many options. It's possible, but her chances aren't great imo.
And whenever Peacock is doing j.HK you can get a full charge.

Check.
 
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guitalex2007 said:
Could've sworn I mentioned Parasoul... It's also definitely not 35 against Peacock. That's laughably inaccurate, but since this is mostly theory fighting, I suppose it doesn't matter.
You mentioned "Parasoul matchup is wrong" with a bunch of dumb claims and without a better number

Not that I agree with this chart or think Squigly is bad or whatever, but your way of posting doesn't really make anything better
 
guitalex2007 said:
Could've sworn I mentioned Parasoul... It's also definitely not 35 against Peacock. That's laughably inaccurate, but since this is mostly theory fighting, I suppose it doesn't matter.
Changing both of those matchups to 5-5s would move Squigly from 9th to 6th. Do you think that's about right?
 
IsaVulpes said:
You mentioned "Parasoul matchup is wrong" with a bunch of dumb claims and without a better number

Not that I agree with this chart or think Squigly is bad or whatever, but you're way of posting doesn't really make anything better
There's a problem with your logic.

I don't care to make it better.

However since you insist on theory fighting, I suggest at least 5-5 on both Peacock and Parasoul. I've already mentioned reasons so I'll leave it there.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Changing both of those matchups to 5-5s would move Squigly from 9th to 6th. Do you think that's about right?
The matchup chat shows her as 7th right now...

I'm still confused as to how Val is a better solo than most of the cast, but I'll trust their decision there, I suppose.
 
guitalex2007 said:
And whenever Peacock is doing j.HK you can get a full charge.

Check.

I don't recall squigly being able to get charge while she's jumping but oh well
 
guitalex2007 said:
The matchup chat shows her as 7th right now...

I'm still confused as to how Val is a better solo than most of the cast, but I'll trust their decision there, I suppose.
She was 9th on the chart you quoted. I'm aware the latest one has her as 7th.
 
guitalex2007 said:
I'm still confused as to how Val is a better solo than most of the cast, but I'll trust their decision there, I suppose.
IsaVulpes said:
It really isn't. I mean, maybe it was the original intent, but.. yeah, it didn't happen. This is a "likely game scenarios" chart, ie "Point Valentine with a DP assist and possibly a lockdown one fighting point /other character/". Lack of reversals is hitting eg Val kinda hard in a 1v1 'tier list'.

Matchup Charts are still not the same thing as a Tier list btw
 
dekillsage said:
I don't recall squigly being able to get charge while she's jumping but oh well
Why would she jump?

See, we should back up all these random claims in the form of a small tournament. FT10, only solo.

Not theorize about some hypothetical match that isn't happening.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Very curious!
A few things. Biggest being I don't believe you can dummy record to jump attack as reversal, when I try for j.hp I always get just hp. There's also the "do I really need to prove I can react in 17 frames?" question.
dekillsage said:
I did. Lets talk about this.
I've actually had this conversation with people several times. People think she's really bad against Peacock, I go through the matchup, I play against Peacock players, I show them the footage, and then they're like "I still think it's a bad matchup, but maybe it's slightly better than I thought".

Here's some reasons I think Bella wins. Titan Knuckle is excellent, Peacock can't really do much against Bella's pressure (especially after Titan Knuckle), Bella now has zero frame deflect with pass through (which also means you can PBGC into deflect now), j.mp beats everything Peacock wants to do in the air and can be cancelled to j.hp for corner push, if Peacock's in the corner she's dead, Bella is allowed armored run when she's in the air so you can follow someone trying to backdash j.hk to create distance, there's a sweet spot you can jump and glide at Peacock from that avoids all of her projectiles and you get a HCH combo (though glide is usually frowned upon, especially if she has HB assist, but even without it she can lvl 1 item drop you out of it), and on teleport crossups Bella can 360.

I still have never heard anyone really tell me why they think the matchup is bad, actually.

guitalex2007 said:
we should back up all these random claims in the form of a small tournament. FT10, only solo.
I can play Peanuts playing solo Peacock in a FT10, if he's down.
 
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Zidiane said:
I can play Peanuts playing solo Peacock in a FT10, if he's down.
Sure, that sounds fun. This Friday?
 
The Squigly-Peacock matchup is not 3.5-6.5, nor is it worse than the Parasoul matchup.
I'm not too sure where the Squigly-Double numbers are coming from, but w/e.
Fortune matchup being worse than the Filia matchup. Ok.

Give this tier list to Filia to hang on the wall of her home.
 
Zidiane said:
A few things. Biggest being I don't believe you can dummy record to jump attack as reversal, when I try for j.hp I always get just hp. There's also the "do I really need to prove I can react in 17 frames?" question.
Then do Reversal Jump, that definitely works. Makes us lose out on the Standblock thing, but who cares aight?
And yes, given 17f is extremely short (18-20 is generally seen as the border of possibility) + we play in Frameskip 6 so its actually 14-15f, I want you to prove this.

♠♠♠

I have said X many times that this tier list is not a Solo Tier list, and a bunch of people who helped creating it frankly state that they didn't give their numbers for 1v1 cus 1v1 is meaningless (eg Severin), so I'm not sure what this Solo Tournament talk is suddenly about.

I don't think Peanuts is gonna be able to play like Solo Peacock is supposed to play in that matchup, as he has zero experience as that, so I'm not sure how much this is going to 'prove' in the first place.
The last time I saw Zid play a Solo Peacock that knew something about playing Solo Peacock was SDE.. and he lost 0-5, for whatever that's worth (nothing?).
 
At the same time, you have to account for all spikes of possibility, including solo Peacock (as unlikely as that may be). Also, 1v1 isn't meaningless because teams or not, 1v1 situations are going to happen. And that's not factoring damage/health handicaps.
 
IsaVulpes said:
The last time I saw Zid play a Solo Peacock that knew something about playing Solo Peacock was SDE.. and he lost 0-5, for whatever that's worth (nothing?).
I don't remember playing any solo peacocks. Are you certain that was me you saw? Who was I playing?
 
IsaVulpes said:
I don't think Peanuts is gonna be able to play like Solo Peacock is supposed to play in that matchup, as he has zero experience as that, so I'm not sure how much this is going to 'prove' in the first place.
For what it's worth I don't think it will prove anything either. But it sounds fun.
 
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Am I really the only one in this world who does not like the concept of tier-lists in the first place
 
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