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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

It's pretty easy to close the distance against fukua. A quick dash under an air fireball and I'm in there. Shadows are really easy to avoid. This match up sucks for fukua. I say she needs assists like HB or brass to help keep val out.

Filia is kinda hard to deal with. 1v1 it's Filia's favor as Val has the tools to keep her out but on miss read and it's over. Say like you read an airdash and go for s.hk but you whiff. Your only option after is to cancel to scalpels but I would imagine you're low on meter. Dp assists are your friend in this match up

Squigs is really hard to combo sometimes, but not impossible. So I wouldn't think that adds to "difficult match up". Honestly I think it's more in Val's favor as squigs can't get out of pressure to well and Val gets out of hers easily (EKG through daisy on reaction). Absolute guard is your friend in this match up if you are squigly.
 
Swap Val and Bella, IMO.

I don't see how anyone could think that Val is better than Bella. Bella has better versions of nearly every tool that Val does other than airdashes, which Bella has absolutely no need of (the need for crossup IAD j.hp as a way to land a hit on a turtle is covered by her midscreen usable-out-of-neutral mixup tools such as MGR, Kancho, and runstop USS, Glide covers most of the rest). I guess Val can place and convert from assists better, but that's a lot less relevant in the current version than it was in MDE with 50% scaling on combos started by assists, plus the threat of lockout and reduced blockstun on Pillar and Updo.
 
50% scaling on combos started by assists does not make conversions a lot less relevant. You're not going to lose as much health on the spot, but the momentum is still completely in your opponent's favor now because you got hit and they picked up off of the hit so now they get to reset/bait you however they wish.
 
I agree with 90% of what khaos just said in that PDF.
ESPECIALLY about every character being good once they get their game off. I also agree with fortune being overrated by many up until very recently. Parasoul is really really good, I'm super glad shes on my team. Her only real problem is bad matchups against the top 3 of peacock, val and current fukua.

Taludas painwheel is good. But i think people, including taluda, overrate her, and put painwheel in a place where she doesnt belong... And also give taludas mf few props in her role for getting many of his wins.

To wit i put more stock in taludas painwheel winning because of fiber conversions, and bella raw tags, than pw being as good as non pw players want her to be.

And id go so far as to say that pw NEEDS to have fiber upper on her team along with the painwheel player able to convert fiber assist into full combo on reaction via super jump j.mp.

This is very different from val or even parasoul or double who have flexibility of choice in the assists they can use and realistically convert off of consistently. Painwheel has trouble converting updo and pillar into damage. She can do it, but only from certain spots and even then, she can only really do it if she wasnt put into heavy blockstun as her assist made contact.

The reasons for this are simple but hard to convey but I'll try in as few words as possible:

Converting from updo or pillar assist will be most optimal as far as consistency is concerned, by dashing in and converting. Painwheel has an extrememly slow dash startup as well as a lot of lag on her dash in general as well as slower moves to pickup her opponent from the assist otg:

Cr.lk is 11 frame pickup, lk buer is 15 frame pickup, cr.mp is 13 frame pickup. So pw is assed out for converting assists this way from most positions (though the cr.lk buff that she recently got, to extend cr.lk hitbox towards the ground does help alot) if she flys to gain the ability to convert she has to give the opponent major space before her assist hits since pw cant block during fly. If she calls an assist and then flys, shes slowing herself by doing fly (10 frame startup in the air, 15 on the ground and both followed by no attacks) and then having to do a slow ass air normal to otg such as j.mp (23 frame startup) it is just not going to be a very high percentage for painwheel to convert these assists because of the nature of painwheels speed to move ratio.


Taludas answer to this is genius while also being obvious to him since he uses the character that gives pw an invincible assist she can combo off of.

Basically painwheel is extremely slow going forward or backward because of her slow dash startup, HOWEVER, painwheel is just as fast at moving UPWARDS as any other character and when you combine that with her j.mp being an easy confirming move air to air. Most of painwheels weaknesses when considering her ability to use assists, fly out the door when she gets fiber upper assist. No need to dash convert, you just need to superjump convert. THATS the difference.


That pretty much shores up most of painwheels weaknesses in one assist call. She still has problems approaching though, because of flight and its non blocking ability plus the slow speed of j.mp and its problem handling air to air when coming from flight and one last weakness of painwheel having a very weak ground reversal... Which is where the rest of taludas team comes in:


Bella raw tag gives painwheel the reversal she needs, and cerecopter gives painwheel a way to make approaching with j.mp MUCH safer.

These reasons are why taludas pw fares so well. But lets not forget that a pw not backed by fiber/bella raw tag/cerecopter extends... Isnt the current best version of painwheel. Painwheel only really shines on taludas team. For the reasons i just laid out.

This is taking nothing away from taluda. The pw team he uses is hard to use. Its a very tricky thing to be able to use fiber well and not have it wiff, as well as be able to confirm it into j.mp. And cerecopter can be hard to use with its non invincible frames and lower range. In fact range is one of the primary weaknesses of taludas team. Along with pw not being able to convert fiber well when pw is in the air (she cant superjump convert jump if shes in the air when fiber makes contact with the opponent, and she cant really do things like backdash and call assist, have the assist hit, and then convert like if it were val or parasoul using updo.

Ive typed enough. Need to do other shit.
 
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I need to see some of this. All of the fukua v val I've played goes nothing like that. Why air fireball when h fireball plus assist works better and gives you more control? I need to see the ones you see.
 
@KhaosMuffins I was just wondering why val would be considered top tier when filia does what val does faster and better, be it conversions, getting out of pressure, and even controlling space. She has no angle projectile and her ad is linear, but filia still seems better than val. And val does lose to squigly just not as bad as the para v Fukua matchup
 
Filia has no dominant hitbox air to air normals like Val's j.HK and j.HP (I'm discounting j.HK for the weird momentum and generally sucking as an air-to-air) and no double jump that turns every hop into a potential bait. They are really not even the same class of character - Filia yolos in to her dominant spacing; Val can wait and bait in neutral better than any other character, get safe assist lockouts from the air, has a serious assist punish in air scalpels, and still turn any assist hit or block into a conversion or an in for her mixup. I think people want to put her in top tier because she's hard to force into bad positions.

Good "gambling" strengths like unsafe but strong and high damage moves (for example: Big Band, Bella) usually get underrated in tiering stuff because they feel dumb and beatable, but they add up in real play.
 
Filia has no dominant hitbox air to air normals like Val's j.HK and j.HP (I'm discounting j.HK for the weird momentum and generally sucking as an air-to-air) and no double jump that turns every hop into a potential bait. They are really not even the same class of character - Filia yolos in to her dominant spacing; Val can wait and bait in neutral better than any other character, get safe assist lockouts from the air, has a serious assist punish in air scalpels, and still turn any assist hit or block into a conversion or an in for her mixup. I think people want to put her in top tier because she's hard to force into bad positions.

Good "gambling" strengths like unsafe but strong and high damage moves (for example: Big Band, Bella) usually get underrated in tiering stuff because they feel dumb and beatable, but they add up in real play.
Basically this, yeah. Val's neutral is better than Filia's due to better mobility options and better normals.
 
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Filia has no dominant hitbox air to air normals like Val's j.HK and j.HP (I'm discounting j.HK for the weird momentum and generally sucking as an air-to-air) and no double jump that turns every hop into a potential bait. They are really not even the same class of character - Filia yolos in to her dominant spacing; Val can wait and bait in neutral better than any other character, get safe assist lockouts from the air, has a serious assist punish in air scalpels, and still turn any assist hit or block into a conversion or an in for her mixup. I think people want to put her in top tier because she's hard to force into bad positions.

Good "gambling" strengths like unsafe but strong and high damage moves (for example: Big Band, Bella) usually get underrated in tiering stuff because they feel dumb and beatable, but they add up in real play.
What you just described is player tendency and style. You don't have to play filia yolo, you don't have to play in any certain way. Just ask @WingZero ,@Duckator, @Pikmario, or @winnie they are all crazy good filias, but play very differently and have different approaches and tools they prefer to use. Plus val j.hp as air to air is something almost no vals use because of its knock back being the way it is. And alot of filia normals beat out vals bc of their speed, not just range ( aka spacing is a real concept guys)
 
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Up back out of command grab is a player tendency not a character one. Mk clone is your friend as both a fukua player and a val player this move shuts down her offense. And from playing both as well if you are getting jumped in on you are more than likely not playing proper neutral. The only real exception to this is sometimes fierce brass knucle assist. Light clone will catch everyone upbacking i promise.
MK clone is fukua's best selects of tools to use BUT it really doesn't matter to val once an actual val knows what to do. Lclone is projectile and doesn't catch upback it USED TO. i got a few setups that even if val tries to neutral jump then she'll get snagged but you can't keep her grounded and that's why this match up sucks. plus mid-range is dangerous. i honestly how YOU would approach the match up. @cloudKing211 we're gonna have to run a set sometime but i do believe that matchup is in favor of val
 
@KhaosMuffins I was just wondering why val would be considered top tier when filia does what val does faster and better

Filia has no doublejump. Valentine's airdash moves her more vertically.

Filia has no dominant defensive or offensive space control normals, only airdashes for space control.

Filia's only strong ground space control tool is c.HP which can only be converted off of with a super or assist.

Filia is ineffective at midscreen, except where Bomber could be called, in order to set up her close range game. Val is effective as a spacing and baiting character at midscreen due to the threat of her verticality and ability to weave around her own assists to attack from weirdo angles, and coax opponents to overextend.

Valentine has an air projectile, allowing you to harass annoy and set the pace of the match, as well as whiff punish assists. Filia's projectile is lol.

Valentine has the capacity to sometimes nuke assists, Filia has no option.

Valentine can abort pressure by doing airbackdash doublejump to return to neutral, where she likes being. Filia pretty much only likes being directly in someones face, or just about to be in someone's face.

I'm sure there's more stuff, but this is just some things that Valentine has over Filia. Valentine is not a redundant waste of a character slot that Filia is better than in every way. Valentine also functions at more ranges than Filia does.

val sucks

sage pls
 
This is a showcase of Filia's most common attack vectors at midrange:

k529ehiu.png


There's really not much she can do - sure she can change up her approach *timing* to bait out reversals and whatnot, but she'll utmost likely come at you from either of those angles, in a straight line.
Jump-MK.Airball and Ringlet would be bonus notions, but both of those are rather risky endeavours.
LK.Airball generally doesn't lead to anything because you put yourself into no mans land in the air, and don't have another air special - pretty much best case is the opponent dashing under it and nothing really happened.

This is the roughly equivalent picture for Valentine:
pdlruda3.png

(Yeah, spacing is a thing, and button startups are a thing, and hitboxes are a thing, but you can have kinda shit normals and still beat everything if you spend half the match at a spot on the screen that most members of the cast can't even reach :~ )
 
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Parasoul's vastly overrated, I feel. Her mixups are mostly just people being too dumb to block slow-as-heck overheads.
 
So far I'm agreeing pretty fully with Khaos's list.

It kind of confirms my hypothesis that SGs tier list isn't who has the best match-ups, but rather who has the least amount of bad match ups. A character with perfect 5-5's in this game is going to rest at the tippy top.

To add on PW:

Not a bad character. Just some bad matchups. Disagree? Go solo vs a decent Parasoul, and you'll come around.

Also, her meter gain is bad which hurts her as she's a point character. To make it worse, she feeds the opponent meter.

I ran some tests, her basic bnb doesn't gain as much as some others, but it doesn't give as much as some others, and it isn't terrible. Connect with a j.mp first and due to how fast it scales her damage (and therefore her meter gain), if you aren't resetting after your first chain, you are feeding more meter than you are getting. At the end of a full bnb... well, don't ever finish a combo if you connect with a j.mp. Unfortunately, due to this, the only real way to help PWs abysmal meter gain is to make it so stage 1 doesn't scale combos which might be a perfect solution... might break the game for some characters.

This last point is, in my opinion, PWs biggest weakness. Khaos said in his tier list that "it's hard to run out of meter in this game." Well, if you want to always feel like you're out of meter, run PW.
 
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Parasoul's vastly overrated, I feel. Her mixups are mostly just people being too dumb to block slow-as-heck overheads.
Online I have trouble blocking them. Offline yeah it's pretty easy to see. Though even if you can't block them on reaction, pretty sure you can just absolute guard.
 
Parasoul's vastly overrated, I feel. Her mixups are mostly just people being too dumb to block slow-as-heck overheads.
What is "conditioning"?

If I go st.jab st.jab cr.forward in a blockstring 5 times, chances are you're not going to block the st.jab st. jab back.roundhouse.

Then we factor in pushblock baiting and different times, both overheads are slow and have big hitboxes, perfect for catching your mistaken backdash.

Now she has tear toss cancels, which are great for her mixup game.
 
Parasoul's vastly overrated, I feel. Her mixups are mostly just people being too dumb to block slow-as-heck overheads.
Nah, you can't react to those. Recognition-reaction time for most people is typically 23 frames; the slower of the two is 21 frames, and that's before taking frameskip into account (I believe frameskip makes it "really" 18 frames?).

Go play some Millia blocker if you don't believe me. Parasoul over heads have to be blocked on prediction, not reaction.
 
You can play Parasoul blocker.

Record an overhead on 1. Record a low on 2. Set it on 'random' and either 'repeat' or 'once'.

I did it the other day to see if I could block Fukua's high and low clones. It is not easy and those are slower than Parasoul's.
 
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Parasoul overheads can be blocked on reaction(I have done so. I have also reacted to Filia IADs), but that requires precommitting to reacting to it. When you've precommitted to reacting to something and are tuned in to reacting to JUST that thing, average human reaction time can lower to ~13-15 frames. However, precommitting to block-low-react-high opens you up to throws or assist+dashjump crossups or whatever, so you're not going to be defending against everything, you've only got so much mental RAM.
 
There's going to be even more visual noise in an actual match that makes the "recognition" part harder also

Parasoul would be absurd if not for pushblock
 
You could also just smack her in the face before the overheads come out.
 
You could also just smack her in the face before the overheads come out.

Now that shit requires a read.
 
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You can play Parasoul blocker.

Record an overhead on 1. Record a low on 2. Set it on 'random' and either 'repeat' or 'once'.

I did this for 20-30 minutes every day before bed for about a month. Skarmand still makes fun of me for it.

Girlystyle told me that Para overheads were really reactable, and even though I thought it was either untrue or untrue for me, I tried very hard to believe him. I asked Sev for some simple setups to drill and just started doing it. Then one day it just clicked. I still get hit with para high/lows quite often, but not nearly as much as I used to.
 
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Parasoul overheads can be blocked on reaction(I have done so. I have also reacted to Filia IADs), but that requires precommitting to reacting to it. When you've precommitted to reacting to something and are tuned in to reacting to JUST that thing, average human reaction time can lower to ~13-15 frames. However, precommitting to block-low-react-high opens you up to throws or assist+dashjump crossups or whatever, so you're not going to be defending against everything, you've only got so much mental RAM.
Parasoul has two overheads, so you can't just look for one.

Mind you, we all know what certain overhead setups look like, so it's a bit better than "you have to guess" (if you're sitting blocking an assist at what would be a good c.lk range, and Parasoul dashes forward, we all know what to expect). But it's not the move yourself you're reacting to; it's the dash forward when you're blocking an assist.
 
Fukua is really overrated imo, I agree that she is mid but not the best of mid, she lacks a good reversal as well as mobility l and loses air to air, aside from her underheads and overheads and spacing she really isnt that good
Oh yah she also has good chip
 
. Lclone is projectile and doesn't catch upback it USED TO.@cloudKing211 we're gonna have to run a set sometime but i do believe that matchup is in favor of val
I forgot about the light clone change thats on me. But up backing out of pressure is still a 'how do I fukua' thing. Stagger normals and such. Every character has access to up back. Mk clone though is still always relevant.
 
I did this for 20-30 minutes every day before bed for about a month. Skarmand still makes fun of me for it.

Girlystyle told me that Para overheads were really reactable, and even though I thought it was either untrue or untrue for me, I tried very hard to believe him. I asked Sev for some simple setups to drill and just started doing it. Then one day it just clicked. I still get hit with para high/lows quite often, but not nearly as much as I used to.


Here's a tip that not many people know, and i dont have enough time to do myself. Practicing one of 2 things like this is hard and takes longer than doing this:

Just put the dummy to record, and have it do the overhead. Practice being in crouchblock and then timing your crouchblock to be a high block.

This is muscle memory training and will teach you to block those overheads on reaction without thinking about it. You literally wont have to think about it, it will just happen. The way you are currently doing it is by trying to make the blocking process a conscious thought. Which actually hurts more than it helps.
 
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I forgot about the light clone change thats on me. But up backing out of pressure is still a 'how do I fukua' thing. Stagger normals and such. Every character has access to up back. Mk clone though is still always relevant.
yes until val has already been in the air. i do like that M clone MAKES val go to the air so i guess there's that. i do believe val can just block it then shadow is in recovery phase and start dashing and dash jump through half of fukua's stuff.
 
Fukua is really overrated imo, I agree that she is mid but not the best of mid, she lacks a good reversal as well as mobility l and loses air to air, aside from her underheads and overheads and spacing she really isnt that good
Oh yah she also has good chip

Like I said above, I think it is because she doesn't have a bad MU. She might not have any great MUs either, but she is a pretty solid pick in just about any situation. She is certainly not the best of everything, but she's going to sit comfortably in the middle in just about every category which is a pretty good bit of power in its own right.
 
If we're talking damage, Fukua's on the high side.
 
I wouldnt say that she has no bad matchups but her bad ones have to do with her mobility and isnt that bad to begin with
 
Filia has no doublejump. Valentine's airdash moves her more vertically.

Filia has no dominant defensive or offensive space control normals, only airdashes for space control.

Filia's only strong ground space control tool is c.HP which can only be converted off of with a super or assist.

Filia is ineffective at midscreen, except where Bomber could be called, in order to set up her close range game. Val is effective as a spacing and baiting character at midscreen due to the threat of her verticality and ability to weave around her own assists to attack from weirdo angles, and coax opponents to overextend.

Valentine has an air projectile, allowing you to harass annoy and set the pace of the match, as well as whiff punish assists. Filia's projectile is lol.

Valentine has the capacity to sometimes nuke assists, Filia has no option.

Valentine can abort pressure by doing airbackdash doublejump to return to neutral, where she likes being. Filia pretty much only likes being directly in someones face, or just about to be in someone's face.

I'm sure there's more stuff, but this is just some things that Valentine has over Filia. Valentine is not a redundant waste of a character slot that Filia is better than in every way. Valentine also functions at more ranges than Filia does.



sage pls
If you got the idea, that I believe filia is val but better, I'm sorry my meaning did not get across. Val wants to get confirms and stay in on her opponent. She generally does not want to play lame. All I meant was even with her mobility she has a harder time staying in and keeping pressure, since her air dash is a little slower and angled it gives the opponent time to adjust to val pressuring than say filias I ad pressure. Filia's just faster, not more mobile. ( and yes I know mobility is a thing)