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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

I'd like to propose a buff to parasoul's damage output 10k 1meter 1v1 should be fine
 
I'll take a crack at the Val questions. I can see why people say Val is the best character because she has really good normals, really good movement, and just really good options over all.

A lot of her normals are disjointed so they're pretty hard to challenge. The one advantage Parasouls disjointed normals have over val's is their reach. Most if not all of Val's are faster though. Ex: Val s.hk vs Para s.hp is 3 frames faster. As such it's a much better anti air and good lockdown in the corner when combined with select assists (Extra tidbit, c.mp and c.hp are also good disjointed anti airs,). Her other notable normal is s.hp. The first few frames have her step back. The uses of this is godly. I used it to dodge and punish air normals, and to bait a reversal when I cancel early into vial load. Finally she has j.hp and j.hk which annoyingly are just really big disjointed air normals that just make it hard to challenge her in the air. So many times i did j.lp with parasoul and was beat by jump back j.hk from val. (ahhh memories)

Movement. The best backdash in the game able to go over lows and throws. It's stupid how good backdash >call pillar is. She has a double jump and an airdash so she can get really high and crossup while calling assist. Remember SDE Val with savage bypass scalpel? Not as strong but it's still there. I mean Peacock still has to watch for that.

So many times I come up with a setup that takes out most of the cast and later do a different setup to take out the other half. Everytime however both setups do not work on Val. EX: (hypothetical) Squigly could do sbo and it would hit filia but not hit bella. In the same scenario if squigly does daisy instead, it could hit bella but not filia. Unfortunately though, no matter what squigly chooses val can just ekg through both supers. Val is the only character with a good ground and air super, so it is pretty easy to get her out. Her damage isn't half bad especially if you get a poison load.

Despite all that none of that really works out without a good team behind you (j.hk lockdown with assist, backdash plus assist call). Personally I think Val is bad without a three man team behind her and it has to be a good one. You need an assist to apply pressure and one to break pressure. Because of that can we really call her the best character?

Don't hurt me, just my analysis above (while half asleep). Feel free to comment but be gentle, as words hurt and I'm very fragile.
 
Adeveis said:
I'll take a crack at the Val questions. I can see why people say Val is the best character because she has really good normals, really good movement, and just really good options over all.

A lot of her normals are disjointed so they're pretty hard to challenge. The one advantage Parasouls disjointed normals have over val's is their reach. Most if not all of Val's are faster though. Ex: Val s.hk vs Para s.hp is 3 frames faster. As such it's a much better anti air and good lockdown in the corner when combined with select assists (Extra tidbit, c.mp and c.hp are also good disjointed anti airs,). Her other notable normal is s.hp. The first few frames have her step back. The uses of this is godly. I used it to dodge and punish air normals, and to bait a reversal when I cancel early into vial load. Finally she has j.hp and j.hk which annoyingly are just really big disjointed air normals that just make it hard to challenge her in the air. So many times i did j.lp with parasoul and was beat by jump back j.hk from val. (ahhh memories)

Movement. The best backdash in the game able to go over lows and throws. It's stupid how good backdash >call pillar is. She has a double jump and an airdash so she can get really high and crossup while calling assist. Remember SDE Val with savage bypass scalpel? Not as strong but it's still there. I mean Peacock still has to watch for that.

So many times I come up with a setup that takes out most of the cast and later do a different setup to take out the other half. Everytime however both setups do not work on Val. EX: (hypothetical) Squigly could do sbo and it would hit filia but not hit bella. In the same scenario if squigly does daisy instead, it could hit bella but not filia. Unfortunately though, no matter what squigly chooses val can just ekg through both supers. Val is the only character with a good ground and air super, so it is pretty easy to get her out. Her damage isn't half bad especially if you get a poison load.

Despite all that none of that really works out without a good team behind you (j.hk lockdown with assist, backdash plus assist call). Personally I think Val is bad without a three man team behind her and it has to be a good one. You need an assist to apply pressure and one to break pressure. Because of that can we really call her the best character?

Don't hurt me, just my analysis above (while half asleep). Feel free to comment but be gentle, as words hurt and I'm very fragile.
so long story short val can operate at optimum because of bomber/copter/skeleton shank(soon to be eliza) and a DP assist.

which is pretty much how PW operates on(except val is like 9 times better).

solo val really isn't scary since she virtually has to wait for the correct spacing for anything to occur.
 
Dhoppler said:
So fuck it. Let's dispel that fear right here and now.

So let's start with Valentine.

What makes her strong? What's her general game plan? What are some notable buttons to use? What are her movement options. What advantages does her movement create. How does that change vs:

Fukua. Why? @MegamanDS


I didn't want to tag you guys multiple times. I'm just going off of the top of my head and from the evo results list.
Fukua controls the ground matchup free here with shadow/fireball loops. For Val to beat Fukua, she has to use her double jump air dash to get above fukua and slowly close the gap. Once Val does that, she can control the match. So ya, jump, double jump throw ninja stars and ad/f to close gap. Since Val is doing most of the work, I give this a 6-4 matchup in favor of Fukua
 
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Dhoppler said:
Edit: James Chen said Ricky Ortiz has the most beautiful hair in the fgc.

I would disagree, but I don't know for how long. Ricky's hair gets stronger and stronger with every major.
 
Val is good because she basically has everything. Shes certainly not without her flaws, but she unlike some of the cast has really good ways to make up for her flaws.

Her primary flaws as i see them (id like the val players out there to help me out on this one as i dont know of many flaws with val)

1. Her airthrow game is meter dependent in general and requires weight specific combos to convert.
2. Her ability to convert from aerial hitconfirms is lacking without an assist.
3. Her great airnormals though they are big and have nice hitboxes, are kinda slowish. They actually feel much like using painwheels j.mp airnormal. So val has to have space in order to use her great airnormals or else she gets busted up by things like parasoul j.lp/j.hp and bellas j.mp.
4. Her damage is on the lower end of the spectrum.
5. Has a hard time making space on the ground because her backdash has no range.
And thats pretty much it that i know of.

All of those are pretty easy to fix via assists or some such with the exception of number one which is just training mode time.

Vals strengths (with assists, because its pointless talking about characters without assists)

She can confirm via near any aerial movement with updo or pillar. She can be jumping backwards or forwards, double jumping in either direction air dashing in some cases... And she still gets the confirm. She can even call an assist early on the ground, then block a heavy blockstun attack, have the assist hit the opponent character, and still have time to run forward.

She can move backwards while still being able to block, but can then in the middle of her jump backwards, she can empty jump forward plus assist against pressure or can cancel her first backwards jump into something like airdash j.m/j.hp to go offensive if its safe to do so. This allows her to back up with few repercussions unlike some charcters that are tapped out at the double jump.

In other words, her evasive movement is extremely safe. While still allowing her to setup an offense from it.

Her ground low/throw game is as good as double or painwheels, requiring no meter.

She can reach the other side of the screen faster than any other character save for porting peacock.
She is the only character in the game that can call assists from super jump height without the need for someone to help her to get to that height.


Her ground game is pretty damn good with things like run in, st.lp xx low/throw mixup
Or just do a st.hk to beat like everything in the world from many ranges.


Flatliner allows her to beat tight reset attempts in a very braindead fashion since its invincible to attacks and throws and is the same motion on the ground versus in the air... And is available in the air in the first place.


Just about any hitconfirm means you are now cornered with her at huge corner advantage.


There's more but ive run out of time. Suffice it to say that she is nowhere near unbeatable (no one was ever saying that she is unbeatable) she just damn good. Perhaps a little to good in my mind, as her weaknesses dont seem to account for her strengths.

I think the reason why shes used less than other characters is all of her weight specific stuff. Shes high execution in the memorization of combos department if you want to do passable damage with her.


Other than that shes a freight train.
 
This is my take on vals matchups, normals, and utility. This will be finished tomorrow

Val's matchups are not as clear cut as most people make them out to be. Every character has gone through changes in their moves, and this affects their approach in both a real fight, and on paper. However, the point that certain normals stuff everything or are "godlike" is getting old, as well as the val is too good arguement. She has a quite a few weaknesses and that makes certain matchups worse than others. So I would like to share my input, whatever value that may hold.

Everything val has can be beaten by most of the cast in neutral and, for about half the cast, during pressure. This is no different from the ENTIRE cast. Do not deem the most mobile character as the best for that quality alone, because speed is not everything in this game.
Her normals may be disjointed and really good in neutral, but they are slow and take precise timing and spacing to be effective. For example, vals j.hk is a really large disjointed normal that is good for a lot things, however you can grab her out of it, or just knock it out of startup frames because it is not fast. It is a utility move, but its not the best move. J.hp is really safe on block, and is obviously a staple in val combos because of its unique carry. However, it is hard to use as a confirm in midair because of its knockback. It is a great normal, but has a drawback(s). This kind of normal is not given solely to valentine. Parasouls j.hp, bella's j.mp, fortune's j.hk, filia's j.hp maybe, squiggly's j.hp, big band's j.hk, painwheel's j.hp, double's j.hp. These normals all have decent to massively sized hit boxes that come out at moderate to above average speeds. However, their flaws vary dependent upon these factors. Parasouls j.hp is safe on block if the opponent is on the ground but if her opponent blocks it in midair, she can be punished. This is probably true for vals j.hp as well. Bella's j.mp will either waste an otg or disallow a confirm if her opponent is hit in midair. Fortunes j. hk is fast and large but requires certain moves to convert off of (i think M axe kick, not too sure). Filia's j.hp has a pretty large hit box for its massive speed, but its hurtboxes are also quite large and its combo potential requires a grounded opponent or to be in the corner. Squiggly's j.hp is a huge normal that is decently fast but can be grabbed, hit or even reacted to with supers but is a great convert tool as well. Big band's jhk is a large fast hitting attack that is pretty safe and has bait potential as well. Painwheel's J.hk is a very large move that albeit slower than these other moves, has armor and can be canceled into thresher or of it connects leads to a full combo anywhere. double's j.hp is probably her best air normal mainly because of its mixup potential, decent hitbox, can fastfall, but is tight to convert off of at certain hights. These are all good to great normals that have really good uses, and make these characters seem good when using them. But as with vals moves, their are flaws, its just that no has taken the time to see what val can do besides fish for hits with assists and all around outplay people with her speed.

Be it that that wall of text explained stuff only a few people would entertain. Pretty much im saying this in regards to vals normals: get over it.

Now with the matchups (disclaimer: these decisions are trying to not take my preferences into consideration, but you may see some biased opinions, or see honest findings, i dunno ;)

VS Parasoul : This matchup is pretty dependent upon the styles of both players really, the both have moderate to good air normals that beat each other out, almost like a chess match. Val j.hk will beat paras j.lp, j.mp, and j.mk, but it can be beaten by paras j.lk and j.hp as well as well timed j.hk. But vals j.mp and j.mk will beat out paras j.lk and j.hp. Its pretty dependent upon the reads players make. I believe however, that vals speed and easy bait with her various safejumps gives her an edge over paras dp, pillar. Vals supers, however limited in use, are still better than parasouls which seem to be used only for combos, and blockstring pressure.

Decision: 6-4 in vals favor.

VS Bella : This matchup is actually hard to acertain. While bella's air to air seems to be really good against val, its hard for bella to ever get a confirm off of val unless its a punish. Her air normals beat val, but generally do not convert into combos (ie. swatting val away with j.mp). Val also has to limit her pressure and respect bella dp. diamond dynamo, and her various command grabs. These limit vals pressure, movement and ability to land a hit on bella. This means that it is hard for both players in the matchup to confirm. This matchup has come a long way since SDE, and it has changed for the better in my opinion

Decision: 5-5

VS Fortune : The way I see it, fortune's only real concern in this matchup is that her air to air combo confirming is harder that vals. Fortune has a great dp, even with the headless nerf that can be used as a unique movement and pressure tool, in conjunction with her linear air dash this creates pressure that val struggles to handle, val is above average in low/throw mixups, but in regards to crossups, air grab resets, and left right mixups fortune is at the top of the food chain. Fortunes resets destroy val in that she has no meterless reversal and her only normal to get out of fortunes fast pressure reliable is s.hk, or looking for gaps in pressure with s.lp. Head off is also really harsh for val, in that one of her best mobility tools, her run, is hampered heavily, the head is pretty much in control of the ground and this is given in return for loss of invincibility on her dp headless. this matchup is heavily dependent upon who connects on the ground first, and fortunes cr.lk outranges all comboable normals val has on the ground

Decision: 4-6 Fortunes favor

VS Filia : This matchup is weird in that even with access to a meterless dp, filia has to be wary of vals crossups and crossunders, and even baiting of updo. Her air normals are pretty decent against val being able to snipe incoming normals with j.hp or s.hp, or even just roll through val with j.mp. Honestly, besides her double jump, val has one major, not thought about, tool over filia, and that is vals movement routes. In order for filia to get diagonal or downward angles in her pressure she has to resort to j.mp or on block fastfalls with j.mk and j.hp. Vals unique (no longer) air dash keeps her pressure variable and able to turn on a dime, sometimes setting filia on edge, and possibly forcing bad decisions (ex: updo on block, random gregor, etc). They each have moves that stop each other from playing lame, although filia has a slight advantage with ringlets, she still has to look out for bypass if she resorts to braindead lame. Filia's supers all have reversal capabilities while also being good outside of combos and heavy reads, giving her the edge.

Decision: 45-55 filias favor, closer to 5-5 but not quite (meterless reversal was my reasoning)

VS Squigly : This matchup is no longer new enough not to discuss in my opinion. She shares with val a great low throw mixup, but adds highs as well with seria cancel f.hp. She also shares a double jump and a lot of good air and ground normals. However, squigly has a few things over val that may have a bearing in their matchup: Squigly's hitbox is thinner than the entire cast, she has her j.lk that can convert from almost any hit, and a divekick special move. These really mess with val, because they limit her movement tremendously. How? Her j.lk while not massive, is decently sized but super fast and is horizontal, think safer parasoul j.lk. This move stuffs val incoming from various angles and will be fast enough to knock val out of startup of many of her moves, all but her lights and j.mp. As if this was not threatening enough, her divekick adds a very heavy mixup to the mix of having to be really careful when you jump. Squigly has a dp. However, this is only really useful with charge, and that is hard to get against vals pressure. But if she does get a charge val has to be worried about being to far away if squigly has even 1 bar (sbo is such a great super for conversions, and so is level 2 sing daisy pusher). Now this may sound terrible in a vacuum, but with squigly's lackluster horizontal movement speed, this matchup is decided by who gets the hit, and that is easier for val from every range but up close (if squigly has no charge).

Decision: 6-4 vals favor (no charge), 4-6 squigly's favor (with charge). They are different enough to garner two different decisions, ok

VS Big Band : This matchup is extremely deceptive, because the obvious reaction to the matchup is = extremely mobile character with fast move (vals j.mp) + slow, much slower character = bad matchup for the slow character. And you'd be right, but not as hard as most people believe. Big Band has been known for having a great long range dp, long range specials with armor, great damaging supers, and safe to decent on block aerial specials. These are really good against a character who makes reads based on their opponents movements. Val has to generally commit to moves to get confirms. This means taking a lot of risks within neutral to bait certain moves and to place her opponents where she wants them. Big band is essentially a slow val, with a dp, and greater high risk/reward (weird comparison, i know but think about it, he has decent corner carry). This matchup is determined by how well each player has a feel for the others moves. This is probably the most knowledge based matchup val has (braindead fails miserably here).

Decision: 5-5, but is heavily player dependent (i meant it!)

VS Painwheel: Do not listen to me, i hate this matchup ( but I will probably agree with @Elda Taluda decision on this matchup, bc he is one of the few great painwheels i have been blessed (cursed) to play

VS Double : This matchup is hard for double, but that is more of a problem with double's neutral vs against val. Double has a hard time dealing with pressure with her fastest air normal and ground normals having absurdly small range (s.lp and j.lp) and are hard to convert off of or help move her opponent away. J.hp is too slow unless the val is read to be not commiting to a jump to be viable. Double, however, has luger, car (completely invincible reversal), j.hk, and hornet bomber to help out against vals neutral prowess.

Decision: 6-4 vals favor.

VS Fukua: I personally hate this matchup in any form but Fukua VS Fukua, but val has it easier than all of the cast, she is the closest to a bad matchup that fukua has besides peacock (who still outzones Fukua). Her air mobility helps her evade shadows, fireballs and generally keeps her out of divekicks range, but the pressure between these tools and her command grabs are a but much for val to handle on the ground

Decision: 4-6 Fukua's favor will probably change post hate period, or after nerfs that might come
Will add to this later its 6AM now.
 
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Dhoppler said:
So fuck it. Let's dispel that fear right here and now.

Everybody talks about this matchup or that matchup being free for character xx and then the most in depth discussion becomes "There's nothing she can do. If she does, use this move."

So let's start with Valentine.

What makes her strong? What's her general game plan? What are some notable buttons to use? What are her movement options. What advantages does her movement create. How does that change vs:

Big Band. @Flotilla.

Against BB, she has to be very conscious of her mobility options. You can be A-Trained out of backdash and any silly jump shenanigans, punished for low-ground command dashes with SSJ, and cymbal clash provides an awkward buffer between Val and BB that Val has to try to break through.

On the other hand, experienced Vals should be able to capitalize off of any mistake (whiffed M/H Brass, A-Train, Giant Step, Beat Extend) that Big Band makes because of their excellent mobility. A large amount of multi-hit normals means that if Val is constantly putting on pressure, it's not as safe for Big Band to use A-Train point blank.

Overall though, I don't think I've fought enough Vals who really knew how to fight BB to be confident about the matchup. He's still sorta new, I'd give it time.
 
Flotilla said:
Against BB, she has to be very conscious of her mobility options. You can be A-Trained out of backdash and any silly jump shenanigans, punished for low-ground command dashes with SSJ, and cymbal clash provides an awkward buffer between Val and BB that Val has to try to break through.

On the other hand, experienced Vals should be able to capitalize off of any mistake (whiffed M/H Brass, A-Train, Giant Step, Beat Extend) that Big Band makes because of their excellent mobility. A large amount of multi-hit normals means that if Val is constantly putting on pressure, it's not as safe for Big Band to use A-Train point blank.

Overall though, I don't think I've fought enough Vals who really knew how to fight BB to be confident about the matchup. He's still sorta new, I'd give it time.
I really don't like the "wait until BB makes a mistake" type gameplay, there has to be a way to blow him up. I've experienced the things you've listed and I thought it was just me not knowing the MU that well.
 
ashxu said:
I really don't like the "wait until BB makes a mistake" type gameplay, there has to be a way to blow him up. I've experienced the things you've listed and I thought it was just me not knowing the MU that well.

Because nearly everything good Big Band has is hella risky, waiting for him to fuck up something you gotta get used to. If he doesn't do anything, you slowly corner him. If he tries to get you off of him, he risks being punished. That's the biggest flaw in Big Band that you gotta exploit.
 
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I'm starting to feel like some of you may not have gone into the lab with her. Mobility is great and all but like 60 percent of the situations can be solved with a counter call. And god do i wish i could convert of j.hp from air to air lol. But please read cloudking's post. It seems very accurate.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Because nearly everything good Big Band has is hella risky, waiting for him to fuck up something you gotta get used to. If he doesn't do anything, you slowly corner him. If he tries to get you off of him, he risks being punished. That's the biggest flaw in Big Band that you gotta exploit.
yeah i suppose

i just don't like the idea of me answering to his actions, i'd much rather take control and make him answer me.
 
ashxu said:
yeah i suppose

i just don't like the idea of me answering to his actions, i'd much rather take control and make him answer me.
His answer is SSJ.
 
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ashxu said:
yes thats the answer most of the time fortunately, as I smartly baited it so I could max punish his brainbeadliness :)
FTFY
 
Val vs PW from PW's perspective: It is pretty even. I'd say 4-6 in Val's favor at the absolute worst. It is just a positioning game with both trying to get the first hit to end the match. Val is more mobile which can tip it in her favor. She's a tad more predictable because she has to land eventually. That's really all there is too it.

My thought on why Val is perceived as OP? She doesn't have bad match ups. She doesn't have that character that sets in the feeling of "why bother" like others in the cast do.

On that note, I know we talk about how balanced this game is, but does anyone think there are any match ups worse than 4-6? I mean that in the strict sense. Are there any match ups in a set of 10 that one character goes 7 wins or higher consistently?

Para v PW? Pea v Para? Others (I'm not sure what other MU people hate)?
 
MegamanDS said:
Fukua controls the ground matchup free here with shadow/fireball loops. For Val to beat Fukua, she has to use her double jump air dash to get above fukua and slowly close the gap. Once Val does that, she can control the match. So ya, jump, double jump throw ninja stars and ad/f to close gap. Since Val is doing most of the work, I give this a 6-4 matchup in favor of Fukua
I get past Fukua fireballs just by ground dashing as it is a bit more difficult to get above the fireballs then it is to just run under them. Unless of course you mean Fukua throwing ground fireballs. Either way though, dead cross is kinda useless in this match up. The only time I use it is to punish assist calls and even then it's a rarity. Probably just a problem with my team comp. Maybe if I had hb (m) I could throw a cross call Double and go in.

Dime_x said:
2. Her ability to convert from aerial hitconfirms is lacking without an assist
4. Her damage is on the lower end of the spectrum.

It's not that hard converting once you get used to it.
Her Damage is higher than Parasouls especially if you can get a poison in, which can be done mid combo with assists. Therefore I wouldn't exactly say it is low. I have broken 10k 3v3 before
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Nobody in this game needs to be nerfed. 'Cept for Peacock's meter gain. Grrrr.

Also, yeah. Players in this community have improved a TON over the year. We can no longer say that only 8 people are actually good at the game.

I don't know about other Cock players, but I'd trade her meter gain for a low faster than 16 frames in a heart beat.
Or something broken like making j.mk a low.
 
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Food for thought. Val has the only low that is minus on block. Can't use that for tic throws.
 
Adeveis said:
Food for thought. Val has the only low that is minus on block. Can't use that for tic throws.
I don't think that's true.
I believe Cerebella's cr.lk is negative on block.
One more character? Can't recall, not at my ps3 right now.
 
Adeveis said:
Food for thought. Val has the only low that is minus on block. Can't use that for tic throws.

Uh...
Peacock's fastest low is -1.
You also don't need a low for a tick throw, though it's probably better in this game since crouch teching isn't a thing.
 
Well I was just giving some info. I know you don't need a low to tic throw as we val's use c.lp, but it just seemed odd that every character can tic with their lows but not val. I completely forgot about peacock.

EDIT: Val c.lk is minus 4 and bella's is plus 6
 
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"tick-throwing" with c.lk is good enough because it's easy enough to train someone not to hit buttons or jump there by following it with a c.mk a few times.

(Also, isn't the second part of c.lk only -1?)

Oh, and all of Parasoul's lows are minus on block.
 
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Cynical said:
"tick-throwing" with c.lk is good enough because it's easy enough to train someone not to hit buttons or jump there by following it with a c.mk a few times.

(Also, isn't the second part of c.lk only -1?)

Oh, and all of Parasoul's lows are minus on block.
second part is neutral/0+ but it's probably gonna be pushblocked on reaction.
 
Cynical said:
"tick-throwing" with c.lk is good enough because it's easy enough to train someone not to hit buttons or jump there by following it with a c.mk a few times.

(Also, isn't the second part of c.lk only -1?)

Oh, and all of Parasoul's lows are minus on block.
the second part of c.lk is pretty useless. Parasoul's c.lk is plus 1 on block
 
Plus or minus has little to do with what makes a good tick. It has more to do with what
Makes for a good frame trap setup. Good ticks are moves that recover quickly and have little pushback.
 
ashxu said:
yeah i suppose

i just don't like the idea of me answering to his actions, i'd much rather take control and make him answer me.
But... that's your mistake...



There seems to be a general differing of opinion on how Valentine should approach matchups, so I don't think we are going to come to any conclusions on Valentine at this point in time.
 
Dime_x said:
Plus or minus has little to do with what makes a good tick. It has more to do with what
Makes for a good frame trap setup. Good ticks are moves that recover quickly and have little pushback.
Wait what??? You do realize that for a frame trap to work you need to be positive enough to have you're frame trap button stuff the startup of whatever button they press. Plus and minus frames have everything to do with good tick/frametrap setups.
 
Seriphx said:
Wait what??? You do realize that for a frame trap to work you need to be positive enough to have you're frame trap button stuff the startup of whatever button they press. Plus and minus frames have everything to do with good tick/frametrap setups.


Sigh... I know frames dude. Reaction time goes into frame traps. You are thinking in a theory fighter context. In the real world, people dont get buttons on the first frame possible everytime and therefor your frame trap needs to be delayed in many instances to give them time to stick something out. Or else they never even have the chance to button the gap. In the val instance, your opponent will not be able to react fast enough to punish the throw attempt unless they are flatout on the buttons. And flatout on buttons is ridiculously easy to beat so no one good does it.

And finally if you are frame trapping with an invincible, there is no need to be positive.. In fact being negative is very good in that instance because its a ridiculously good bait.


And so on and such and such.
 
It is practical to do use c.LK throw as a tick throw set up if you've already conditioned your opponent to expect c.MK or something directly after it, since defending against the c.MK requires a different input than defending againt the throw.

Negative on block moves that can chain into other moves that don't give them enough time to counterpoke you can give you fake frame advantage.
 
For those who aren't familiar with this concept, I recommend watching the Airdash Academy "chain routes" videos on Youtube (sorry, can't link them now, work PC blocks Youtube).

EDIT: I'm at home now, here's the vids:
 
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That move is not that great for a tick throw. It is short, the way it releases both characters whenever it is hit or block telegraphs the tick to the world. It works because of usual val combo structure and expectations, but this is also available to every other character.
 
This is my take on vals matchups, normals, and utility. *Finished

Val's matchups are not as clear cut as most people make them out to be. Every character has gone through changes in their moves, and this affects their approach in both a real fight, and on paper. However, the point that certain normals stuff everything or are "godlike" is getting old, as well as the val is too good arguement. She has a quite a few weaknesses and that makes certain matchups worse than others. So I would like to share my input, whatever value that may hold.

Everything val has can be beaten by most of the cast in neutral and, for about half the cast, during pressure. This is no different from the ENTIRE cast. Do not deem the most mobile character as the best for that quality alone, because speed is not everything in this game.
Her normals may be disjointed and really good in neutral, but they are slow and take precise timing and spacing to be effective. For example, vals j.hk is a really large disjointed normal that is good for a lot things, however you can grab her out of it, or just knock it out of startup frames because it is not fast. It is a utility move, but its not the best move. J.hp is really safe on block, and is obviously a staple in val combos because of its unique carry. However, it is hard to use as a confirm in midair because of its knockback. It is a great normal, but has a drawback(s). This kind of normal is not given solely to valentine. Parasouls j.hp, bella's j.mp, fortune's j.hk, filia's j.hp maybe, squiggly's j.hp, big band's j.hk, painwheel's j.hp, double's j.hp. These normals all have decent to massively sized hit boxes that come out at moderate to above average speeds. However, their flaws vary dependent upon these factors. Parasouls j.hp is safe on block if the opponent is on the ground but if her opponent blocks it in midair, she can be punished. This is probably true for vals j.hp as well. Bella's j.mp will either waste an otg or disallow a confirm if her opponent is hit in midair. Fortunes j. hk is fast and large but requires certain moves to convert off of (i think M axe kick, not too sure). Filia's j.hp has a pretty large hit box for its massive speed, but its hurtboxes are also quite large and its combo potential requires a grounded opponent or to be in the corner. Squiggly's j.hp is a huge normal that is decently fast but can be grabbed, hit or even reacted to with supers but is a great convert tool as well. Big band's jhk is a large fast hitting attack that is pretty safe and has bait potential as well. Painwheel's J.hk is a very large move that albeit slower than these other moves, has armor and can be canceled into thresher or of it connects leads to a full combo anywhere. double's j.hp is probably her best air normal mainly because of its mixup potential, decent hitbox, can fastfall, but is tight to convert off of at certain hights. These are all good to great normals that have really good uses, and make these characters seem good when using them. But as with vals moves, their are flaws, its just that no has taken the time to see what val can do besides fish for hits with assists and all around outplay people with her speed.

Be it that that wall of text explained stuff only a few people would entertain. Pretty much im saying this in regards to vals normals: get over it.

Now with the matchups (disclaimer: these decisions are trying to not take my preferences into consideration, but you may see some biased opinions, or see honest findings, i dunno ;)

VS Parasoul : This matchup is pretty dependent upon the styles of both players really, the both have moderate to good air normals that beat each other out, almost like a chess match. Val j.hk will beat paras j.lp, j.mp, and j.mk, but it can be beaten by paras j.lk and j.hp as well as well timed j.hk. But vals j.mp and j.mk will beat out paras j.lk and j.hp. Its pretty dependent upon the reads players make. I believe however, that vals speed and easy bait with her various safejumps gives her an edge over paras dp, pillar. Vals supers, however limited in use, are still better than parasouls which seem to be used only for combos, and blockstring pressure.

Decision: 6-4 in vals favor.

VS Bella : This matchup is actually hard to acertain. While bella's air to air seems to be really good against val, its hard for bella to ever get a confirm off of val unless its a punish. Her air normals beat val, but generally do not convert into combos (ie. swatting val away with j.mp). Val also has to limit her pressure and respect bella dp. diamond dynamo, and her various command grabs. These limit vals pressure, movement and ability to land a hit on bella. This means that it is hard for both players in the matchup to confirm. This matchup has come a long way since SDE, and it has changed for the better in my opinion

Decision: 5-5

VS Fortune : The way I see it, fortune's only real concern in this matchup is that her air to air combo confirming is harder that vals. Fortune has a great dp, even with the headless nerf that can be used as a unique movement and pressure tool, in conjunction with her linear air dash this creates pressure that val struggles to handle, val is above average in low/throw mixups, but in regards to crossups, air grab resets, and left right mixups fortune is at the top of the food chain. Fortunes resets destroy val in that she has no meterless reversal and her only normal to get out of fortunes fast pressure reliable is s.hk, or looking for gaps in pressure with s.lp. Head off is also really harsh for val, in that one of her best mobility tools, her run, is hampered heavily, the head is pretty much in control of the ground and this is given in return for loss of invincibility on her dp headless. this matchup is heavily dependent upon who connects on the ground first, and fortunes cr.lk outranges all comboable normals val has on the ground

Decision: 4-6 Fortunes favor

VS Filia : This matchup is weird in that even with access to a meterless dp, filia has to be wary of vals crossups and crossunders, and even baiting of updo. Her air normals are pretty decent against val being able to snipe incoming normals with j.hp or s.hp, or even just roll through val with j.mp. Honestly, besides her double jump, val has one major, not thought about, tool over filia, and that is vals movement routes. In order for filia to get diagonal or downward angles in her pressure she has to resort to j.mp or on block fastfalls with j.mk and j.hp. Vals unique (no longer) air dash keeps her pressure variable and able to turn on a dime, sometimes setting filia on edge, and possibly forcing bad decisions (ex: updo on block, random gregor, etc). They each have moves that stop each other from playing lame, although filia has a slight advantage with ringlets, she still has to look out for bypass if she resorts to braindead lame. Filia's supers all have reversal capabilities while also being good outside of combos and heavy reads, giving her the edge.

Decision: 45-55 filias favor, closer to 5-5 but not quite (meterless reversal was my reasoning)

VS Squigly : This matchup is no longer new enough not to discuss in my opinion. She shares with val a great low throw mixup, but adds highs as well with seria cancel f.hp. She also shares a double jump and a lot of good air and ground normals. However, squigly has a few things over val that may have a bearing in their matchup: Squigly's hitbox is thinner than the entire cast, she has her j.lk that can convert from almost any hit, and a divekick special move. These really mess with val, because they limit her movement tremendously. How? Her j.lk while not massive, is decently sized but super fast and is horizontal, think safer parasoul j.lk. This move stuffs val incoming from various angles and will be fast enough to knock val out of startup of many of her moves, all but her lights and j.mp. As if this was not threatening enough, her divekick adds a very heavy mixup to the mix of having to be really careful when you jump. Squigly has a dp. However, this is only really useful with charge, and that is hard to get against vals pressure. But if she does get a charge val has to be worried about being to far away if squigly has even 1 bar (sbo is such a great super for conversions, and so is level 2 sing daisy pusher). Now this may sound terrible in a vacuum, but with squigly's lackluster horizontal movement speed, this matchup is decided by who gets the hit, and that is easier for val from every range but up close (if squigly has no charge).

Decision: 6-4 vals favor (no charge), 4-6 squigly's favor (with charge). They are different enough to garner two different decisions, ok

VS Big Band : This matchup is extremely deceptive, because the obvious reaction to the matchup is = extremely mobile character with fast move (vals j.mp) + slow, much slower character = bad matchup for the slow character. And you'd be right, but not as hard as most people believe. Big Band has been known for having a great long range dp, long range specials with armor, great damaging supers, and safe to decent on block aerial specials. These are really good against a character who makes reads based on their opponents movements. Val has to generally commit to moves to get confirms. This means taking a lot of risks within neutral to bait certain moves and to place her opponents where she wants them. Big band is essentially a slow val, with a dp, and greater high risk/reward (weird comparison, i know but think about it, he has decent corner carry). This matchup is determined by how well each player has a feel for the others moves. This is probably the most knowledge based matchup val has (braindead fails miserably here).

Decision: 5-5, but is heavily player dependent (i meant it!)

VS Painwheel: Do not listen to me, i hate this matchup ( but I will probably agree with @Elda Taluda decision on this matchup, bc he is one of the few great painwheels i have been blessed (cursed) to play

VS Double : This matchup is hard for double, but that is more of a problem with double's neutral vs against val. Double has a hard time dealing with pressure with her fastest air normal and ground normals having absurdly small range (s.lp and j.lp) and are hard to convert off of or help move her opponent away. J.hp is too slow unless the val is read to be not commiting to a jump to be viable. Double, however, has luger, car (completely invincible reversal), j.hk, and hornet bomber to help out against vals neutral prowess.

Decision: 6-4 vals favor.

VS Fukua: I personally hate this matchup in any form but Fukua VS Fukua, but val has it easier than all of the cast, she is the closest to a bad matchup that fukua has besides peacock (who still outzones Fukua). Her air mobility helps her evade shadows, fireballs and generally keeps her out of divekicks range, but the pressure between these tools and her command grabs are a but much for val to handle on the ground

Decision: 4-6 Fukua's favor will probably change post hate period, or after nerfs that might come
Please share opinions. Would like to know what other val players have to say (you know, to get better)
 
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cloudKing211 said:
shit that was said about fukua

ok switch the other way and you'd be right.


fukua DOES NOT Like being near val at ALL (unlike against good ol squigs)

the thing is. cmd grabs aren't even an issue because val LOVES taking to the air. we can only shadow you if you ATTEMPT to jump in the air. NOT when you're in the air.

the trajectory in which you jump you can get in on us. and that's not all. if we make the wrong decision in our tools. your mobility closes in on fukua IN NO TIME.
all the resets in the world at your disposal and we don't got much to deal with val. for fukua you'd have to play the player BUT you're forced to play the character. While val...... just has to force her character's abilities on fukua and not even think about the player's(with no lvl 3) options cause fukua doesn't allow the player to have many against val. also val's scapels beats fireball super funny enough.
 
Up back out of command grab is a player tendency not a character one. Mk clone is your friend as both a fukua player and a val player this move shuts down her offense. And from playing both as well if you are getting jumped in on you are more than likely not playing proper neutral. The only real exception to this is sometimes fierce brass knucle assist. Light clone will catch everyone upbacking i promise.
 
cloudKing211 said:
This is my take on vals matchups, normals, and utility. *Finished

Val's matchups are not as clear cut as most people make them out to be. Every character has gone through changes in their moves, and this affects their approach in both a real fight, and on paper. However, the point that certain normals stuff everything or are "godlike" is getting old, as well as the val is too good arguement. She has a quite a few weaknesses and that makes certain matchups worse than others. So I would like to share my input, whatever value that may hold.

Everything val has can be beaten by most of the cast in neutral and, for about half the cast, during pressure. This is no different from the ENTIRE cast. Do not deem the most mobile character as the best for that quality alone, because speed is not everything in this game.
Her normals may be disjointed and really good in neutral, but they are slow and take precise timing and spacing to be effective. For example, vals j.hk is a really large disjointed normal that is good for a lot things, however you can grab her out of it, or just knock it out of startup frames because it is not fast. It is a utility move, but its not the best move. J.hp is really safe on block, and is obviously a staple in val combos because of its unique carry. However, it is hard to use as a confirm in midair because of its knockback. It is a great normal, but has a drawback(s). This kind of normal is not given solely to valentine. Parasouls j.hp, bella's j.mp, fortune's j.hk, filia's j.hp maybe, squiggly's j.hp, big band's j.hk, painwheel's j.hp, double's j.hp. These normals all have decent to massively sized hit boxes that come out at moderate to above average speeds. However, their flaws vary dependent upon these factors. Parasouls j.hp is safe on block if the opponent is on the ground but if her opponent blocks it in midair, she can be punished. This is probably true for vals j.hp as well. Bella's j.mp will either waste an otg or disallow a confirm if her opponent is hit in midair. Fortunes j. hk is fast and large but requires certain moves to convert off of (i think M axe kick, not too sure). Filia's j.hp has a pretty large hit box for its massive speed, but its hurtboxes are also quite large and its combo potential requires a grounded opponent or to be in the corner. Squiggly's j.hp is a huge normal that is decently fast but can be grabbed, hit or even reacted to with supers but is a great convert tool as well. Big band's jhk is a large fast hitting attack that is pretty safe and has bait potential as well. Painwheel's J.hk is a very large move that albeit slower than these other moves, has armor and can be canceled into thresher or of it connects leads to a full combo anywhere. double's j.hp is probably her best air normal mainly because of its mixup potential, decent hitbox, can fastfall, but is tight to convert off of at certain hights. These are all good to great normals that have really good uses, and make these characters seem good when using them. But as with vals moves, their are flaws, its just that no has taken the time to see what val can do besides fish for hits with assists and all around outplay people with her speed.

Be it that that wall of text explained stuff only a few people would entertain. Pretty much im saying this in regards to vals normals: get over it.

Now with the matchups (disclaimer: these decisions are trying to not take my preferences into consideration, but you may see some biased opinions, or see honest findings, i dunno ;)

VS Parasoul : This matchup is pretty dependent upon the styles of both players really, the both have moderate to good air normals that beat each other out, almost like a chess match. Val j.hk will beat paras j.lp, j.mp, and j.mk, but it can be beaten by paras j.lk and j.hp as well as well timed j.hk. But vals j.mp and j.mk will beat out paras j.lk and j.hp. Its pretty dependent upon the reads players make. I believe however, that vals speed and easy bait with her various safejumps gives her an edge over paras dp, pillar. Vals supers, however limited in use, are still better than parasouls which seem to be used only for combos, and blockstring pressure.

Decision: 6-4 in vals favor.

VS Bella : This matchup is actually hard to acertain. While bella's air to air seems to be really good against val, its hard for bella to ever get a confirm off of val unless its a punish. Her air normals beat val, but generally do not convert into combos (ie. swatting val away with j.mp). Val also has to limit her pressure and respect bella dp. diamond dynamo, and her various command grabs. These limit vals pressure, movement and ability to land a hit on bella. This means that it is hard for both players in the matchup to confirm. This matchup has come a long way since SDE, and it has changed for the better in my opinion

Decision: 5-5

VS Fortune : The way I see it, fortune's only real concern in this matchup is that her air to air combo confirming is harder that vals. Fortune has a great dp, even with the headless nerf that can be used as a unique movement and pressure tool, in conjunction with her linear air dash this creates pressure that val struggles to handle, val is above average in low/throw mixups, but in regards to crossups, air grab resets, and left right mixups fortune is at the top of the food chain. Fortunes resets destroy val in that she has no meterless reversal and her only normal to get out of fortunes fast pressure reliable is s.hk, or looking for gaps in pressure with s.lp. Head off is also really harsh for val, in that one of her best mobility tools, her run, is hampered heavily, the head is pretty much in control of the ground and this is given in return for loss of invincibility on her dp headless. this matchup is heavily dependent upon who connects on the ground first, and fortunes cr.lk outranges all comboable normals val has on the ground

Decision: 4-6 Fortunes favor

VS Filia : This matchup is weird in that even with access to a meterless dp, filia has to be wary of vals crossups and crossunders, and even baiting of updo. Her air normals are pretty decent against val being able to snipe incoming normals with j.hp or s.hp, or even just roll through val with j.mp. Honestly, besides her double jump, val has one major, not thought about, tool over filia, and that is vals movement routes. In order for filia to get diagonal or downward angles in her pressure she has to resort to j.mp or on block fastfalls with j.mk and j.hp. Vals unique (no longer) air dash keeps her pressure variable and able to turn on a dime, sometimes setting filia on edge, and possibly forcing bad decisions (ex: updo on block, random gregor, etc). They each have moves that stop each other from playing lame, although filia has a slight advantage with ringlets, she still has to look out for bypass if she resorts to braindead lame. Filia's supers all have reversal capabilities while also being good outside of combos and heavy reads, giving her the edge.

Decision: 45-55 filias favor, closer to 5-5 but not quite (meterless reversal was my reasoning)

VS Squigly : This matchup is no longer new enough not to discuss in my opinion. She shares with val a great low throw mixup, but adds highs as well with seria cancel f.hp. She also shares a double jump and a lot of good air and ground normals. However, squigly has a few things over val that may have a bearing in their matchup: Squigly's hitbox is thinner than the entire cast, she has her j.lk that can convert from almost any hit, and a divekick special move. These really mess with val, because they limit her movement tremendously. How? Her j.lk while not massive, is decently sized but super fast and is horizontal, think safer parasoul j.lk. This move stuffs val incoming from various angles and will be fast enough to knock val out of startup of many of her moves, all but her lights and j.mp. As if this was not threatening enough, her divekick adds a very heavy mixup to the mix of having to be really careful when you jump. Squigly has a dp. However, this is only really useful with charge, and that is hard to get against vals pressure. But if she does get a charge val has to be worried about being to far away if squigly has even 1 bar (sbo is such a great super for conversions, and so is level 2 sing daisy pusher). Now this may sound terrible in a vacuum, but with squigly's lackluster horizontal movement speed, this matchup is decided by who gets the hit, and that is easier for val from every range but up close (if squigly has no charge).

Decision: 6-4 vals favor (no charge), 4-6 squigly's favor (with charge). They are different enough to garner two different decisions, ok

VS Big Band : This matchup is extremely deceptive, because the obvious reaction to the matchup is = extremely mobile character with fast move (vals j.mp) + slow, much slower character = bad matchup for the slow character. And you'd be right, but not as hard as most people believe. Big Band has been known for having a great long range dp, long range specials with armor, great damaging supers, and safe to decent on block aerial specials. These are really good against a character who makes reads based on their opponents movements. Val has to generally commit to moves to get confirms. This means taking a lot of risks within neutral to bait certain moves and to place her opponents where she wants them. Big band is essentially a slow val, with a dp, and greater high risk/reward (weird comparison, i know but think about it, he has decent corner carry). This matchup is determined by how well each player has a feel for the others moves. This is probably the most knowledge based matchup val has (braindead fails miserably here).

Decision: 5-5, but is heavily player dependent (i meant it!)

VS Painwheel: Do not listen to me, i hate this matchup ( but I will probably agree with @Elda Taluda decision on this matchup, bc he is one of the few great painwheels i have been blessed (cursed) to play

VS Double : This matchup is hard for double, but that is more of a problem with double's neutral vs against val. Double has a hard time dealing with pressure with her fastest air normal and ground normals having absurdly small range (s.lp and j.lp) and are hard to convert off of or help move her opponent away. J.hp is too slow unless the val is read to be not commiting to a jump to be viable. Double, however, has luger, car (completely invincible reversal), j.hk, and hornet bomber to help out against vals neutral prowess.

Decision: 6-4 vals favor.

VS Fukua: I personally hate this matchup in any form but Fukua VS Fukua, but val has it easier than all of the cast, she is the closest to a bad matchup that fukua has besides peacock (who still outzones Fukua). Her air mobility helps her evade shadows, fireballs and generally keeps her out of divekicks range, but the pressure between these tools and her command grabs are a but much for val to handle on the ground

Decision: 4-6 Fukua's favor will probably change post hate period, or after nerfs that might come
Please share opinions. Would like to know what other val players have to say (you know, to get better)
Disagreed on the Squigly matchup. That one is completely hopeless for Val; 3-7 or worse. Squigly beats Val cleanly at every range, her hurtbox means that most Val reset options just straight-up don't work against her, and her pressure is millions of times better with stancels.

Honestly, I think the only matchups that Val actually wins in the current version of the game are Parasoul and solo Peacock (throw in assists, and Val loses this one too, though). There's a reason why "solo Val" is treated as a joke; she's got mobility, sure, but her actual moves are pretty awful. Disjoints don't matter when you get beaten out consistently.
 
I don't think squigs it's quite that sharp for her, once you get her character specific stuff and dip into the more gimmicky side of things it's like 6-4 squig. The Val player has to understand that she has lost the neutral when she gets too close to her and when she has gotten a certain space away also.
 
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