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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

And how much does 2/3 and it being a knockout tournament really mean in the first place?
It means everything because that's the tournament standard. I don't care if someone can beat me in a FT10, because we don't play FT10s in tournament.
95% of ANY player base is going to be worse than the top 5% is, and Skullgirls players are not the type of players that have been playing at high level competition in other games for many years.
1) What does playing other games at high level have to do with this one? 2) SonicFox does what you said we don't, but is there a difference between him and the rest of top 4 when it comes to this game?

That being said having a game be out for 3 years and having each version be significantly different doesn't help the player base play as consistent and optimal as they can. When marvel 3 first came out the top 8 at evo was a sloppy mess where people fucked up all the time, INCLUDING the top players who played other games prior. Give our players more time, they're a lot of better than given credit for.
 
Evo 2014 says throw your tier list into the garbage.
 
It means everything because that's the tournament standard. I don't care if someone can beat me in a FT10, because we don't play FT10s in tournament
Did you put on the wrong shoes or something?
I'm not talking you down or saying your win was undeserved or whatever, I'm saying that you can't pull matchup numbers / tierlists out of tournament placings or even worse, single 2/3 sets.
(For the record, I think you would have had an easier time winning the tourney if it had been all FT10 sets.)

I play Parasoul vs worldjem, read that he will do downback+assistcall at round start, land a dash-Throw and destroy his entire team off this hit followed by various mixups. 2nd match, I read that he will do jumpback j.HP at round start, land a dashjump CH j.LP j.HP into cornercarry; 2LK him as he upbacks + calls Updo, doublesnap etc.
I just won 2-0 against a Peacock that got Top8 at EVO. Does that mean I'd get Top8 easy too? Nop. Does that mean I'm better than he is? Nop. Does that mean Parasoul has an advantageous matchup against Peacock? Nop. Does that mean Peacock sucks? Nop.

Can you say "Valentine is not the best character in the game" with the reasoning that there was only one Val in Top16 and none in Top8? Nop. Is "Bella is the best character in the game" because there were 4 Bellas in Top4 a valid reasoning? Nop.

What you CAN pull out of tournament results is only the opposite thinking process - "Val needs buffs because she didn't do well" doesn't work;
However "Bella doesn't need buffs as she is *good enough* to win EVO - she might still be the worst character in the game, but then by such a small margin that it does not matter" might be a viable conclusion (as would be "Valentine probably doesn't need a nerf very badly").
 
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I probably said that
though at the moment I think the Eliza they had at evo is the best character in the game when solo.

I think her unfinished hitboxes on a bunch of her attacks kinda contributes to this. I don't think her j.HP is supposed to be THAT disjointed. j.MP either.
 
For example that the character is boring as fuck, or very difficult, or requires a specific playstyle that not a lot of people can call their own, or a billion other reasons.

How many Yuns are there in USF4 Top8? How many Kokonoes in BBCP Top8? Does that mean these characters suck?
Let's take those 2 characters in context to Valentine. USF4 is a 1 on 1 game with 40+ characters. Kazunoko was in grand finals of a stacked major only a few weeks ago with Yun and there was at least 1 Yun in top 16 of EVO. BBCP is again 1v1 with 20+ characters. There were 8 Kokonoes in top 16 and the grand finals of every American major have had 1 Kokonoe if it wasn't just a Koko mirror.

SG is a game with 11 characters where you can go up to 3 on 3. Having just 1 Valentine in top 16 when she's supposed to be the best character definitely seems off to me. Even a spayed Fortune had more representation. I'm not saying she sucks(no one said that actually) but it is awfully curious that no one has decided to pick up this flawless character.
 
SG is a game with 11 characters where you can go up to 3 on 3. Having just 1 Valentine in top 16 when she's supposed to be the best character definitely seems off to me. Even a spayed Fortune had more representation. I'm not saying she sucks(no one said that actually) but it is awfully curious that no one has decided to pick up this flawless character.
I honestly would be curious to hear top players' explanations of why they picked the characters and teams they did. I wonder how many would say something like "this team gives me the best chance to win tournaments" versus "she's fun" or "she's the cutest one".
 
SG is a game with 11 characters where you can go up to 3 on 3. Having just 1 Valentine in top 16 when she's supposed to be the best character definitely seems off to me. Even a spayed Fortune had more representation. I'm not saying she sucks(no one said that actually) but it is awfully curious that no one has decided to pick up this flawless character.
This game is balanced enough that you can win with any character instead of needing to rely on top tier shenanagins. That's partially why. And there are plenty of Valentine players; they didn't happen to do so well at EVO, but there have been plenty of Valentine players that placed well at other tournaments, I believe.
 
This game is balanced enough that you can win with any character instead of needing to rely on top tier shenanagins. That's partially why. And there are plenty of Valentine players; they didn't happen to do so well at EVO, but there have been plenty of Valentine players that placed well at other tournaments, I believe.
Exactly, that's why I'm getting tired of reading about how Val needs nerfs. Especially when I know there are plenty of Val players and she doesn't seem more successful than any other character.
 
SG is a game with 11 characters where you can go up to 3 on 3. Having just 1 Valentine in top 16 when she's supposed to be the best character definitely seems off to me. Even a spayed Fortune had more representation. I'm not saying she sucks(no one said that actually) but it is awfully curious that no one has decided to pick up this flawless character.

I get what you're saying, but in fairness, Val only has one standard position (point), so you'd still be considering only 16 teams. Whereas someone like Bella can fit in just about anywhere, so it makes sense to me that she could theoretically be weaker while still having more representation.

It isn't as easy as saying that there are 16*3=48 theoretical positions, so why is Val only represented once?
 
After watching evo, I am very surprised people are talking about characters did not place or win. Let's us take for example the USF4 top 8 of Snake Eyez (Zangief) vs Ricky Ortiz (Rufus). A match that Zangief "should" loose and what happened? Zangief dominated.

This was no fluke and matches like this was displayed all over Evo in several games. It's not the character, it is the player!
 
After watching evo, I am very surprised people are talking about characters did not place or win. Let's us take for example the USF4 top 8 of Snake Eyez (Zangief) vs Ricky Ortiz (Rufus). A match that Zangief "should" loose and what happened? Zangief dominated.

This was no fluke and matches like this was displayed all over Evo in several games. It's not the character, it is the player!
I thought that matchup favored Zangief? Granted I'm not a SF4 player.
 
I thought that matchup favored Zangief? Granted I'm not a SF4 player.

Yeah that is one match up that Zangief should definitely loose by theory.
 
it is in gief's favor IIRC i don't remember why but justin wong pretty much spaces gief out with c fp and made excellent reads

Justin is pretty much the example why Rufus is a problem for Zangief.
 
Justin's Rufus is pretty weird as far as Rufus' go. He doesn't go ham.
 
Having just 1 Valentine in top 16 when she's supposed to be the best character definitely seems off to me.

..

I'm not saying she sucks(no one said that actually) but it is awfully curious that no one has decided to pick up this flawless character.

Me and @cloudKing211 are on our way.
 
Dime has been playing for like two decades or some shit and he still falls under the similar headline of "player who hasn't been playing at a high/top level in an established game series". Not calling you out Dime, since you've told me at length how much you suck. :P



Im fucking terrible, its true. But so is everyone else... And when i say everyone else i mean EVERY ONE else. However, in a sea of terrible players, and this includes other fighting games such as streetfighter and soul calibur, i think im pretty decent. Not the best of the terribles, which would would mean im actually approaching being good, just that I'm decent.

However since you bring it up, yes i have 20 plus years of fighting game experience, but only around 3 of them have been conscious decisions to play better as a player rather than just doing rote strings
 
I get what you're saying, but in fairness, Val only has one standard position (point), so you'd still be considering only 16 teams. Whereas someone like Bella can fit in just about anywhere, so it makes sense to me that she could theoretically be weaker while still having more representation.

It isn't as easy as saying that there are 16*3=48 theoretical positions, so why is Val only represented once?
Peacock and Double only have one standard position, and there were three Peacocks and nine Doubles.
 
It means everything because that's the tournament standard. I don't care if someone can beat me in a FT10, because we don't play FT10s in tournament.

1) What does playing other games at high level have to do with this one? 2) SonicFox does what you said we don't, but is there a difference between him and the rest of top 4 when it comes to this game?

1. Playing other games at a high level prior can lend your previous fighting game knowledge and fundamentals, but is also something that could prevent you from trying other games like Skullgirls since you're already invested in breaking your ass trying to get world class at your chosen game.

2. SonicFox is young and learns games fast in a very fundamental way, but one thing I do notice is that unlike many other top 8 or top 16 competitors, his playstyle can be described as very Clean. He's aware of the risks and rewards of each situation and doesn't just 'do things'. Basically no shitty wasted assist calls, no fucking retarded judgement calls (The amount of really stupid unsafe double raw tags I've seen recently has been off the charts), and he doesn't particularly "lose" his games. His opponents win.

I've been thinking about that small point recently - Winning vs Losing in games, was thinking of making a thread about it to illustrate the concept. Basically, there is a difference between someone Winning against you, and you Losing the game. Winning is being able to straight up outplay someone with either spacing or reads or forcing a shit situation on someone. Losing is whenever you don't incorporate crucial information, like when you don't punish things or when you don't adapt to something that's very adaptable to, not understanding how to play a certain matchup, or when you insist on doing the same shit over and over and your opponent adapts and you don't.

Short examples-
Eating Filia mixups up close is not 'Losing'. The Filia player is just winning, it's not a mistake to block high or block low vs a Filia, you just gotta guess.

However, not trying to anti-air and air-to-air Filia's airdashes with your characters normals and keeping her out, that is you losing. Not keeping your eye out for opportunities to prevent Filia's approach with your normals is a critical playstyle mistake.

Watching over the top 16 footage, there was a LOT of Losing I was seeing compared to other games top 16s. In my opinion, high level play can only really proliferate when a lot of players stop Losing, and the race to Win the hardest starts.
That being said having a game be out for 3 years and having each version be significantly different doesn't help the player base play as consistent and optimal as they can. ... Give our players more time, they're a lot of better than given credit for.

Okay, that's a very fair point.

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I thought that [Rufus vs Zangief] favored Zangief? Granted I'm not a SF4 player.

Rufus is a character that's built to rush down. Rufus players want to rush shit down. Zangief shits on characters who want to rush down.

However, one day Rufus players sat down and realised, hold on a minute, in this precise matchup if you play turtly as shit, use Rufus's surprisingly far-reaching normals and just zone zangief, he's gonna have a really shit time.

 
Peacock and Double only have one standard position, and there were three Peacocks and nine Doubles.

Point Double is a thing sometimes.
 
Point Double is a thing sometimes.
In this tournament, it was used by exactly one person in top 16 , who used it as a counterpick and played anchor Double in most of his matches.

EDIT: @ClarenceMage , there were at least three sets in SF4 top 8 with a whole lot of "losing" going on.
 
In this tournament, it was used by exactly one person in top 16 , who used it as a counterpick and played anchor Double in most of his matches.

oh yeahhhhhhhhh i forgot negus dropped filia
 
You guys are so eager to sell the SG community short compared to other scenes but until those people decide to pick up SG (unlikely) none of that shit matters.
 
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I used to be a card-carrying member of the "SG players suck!" club, but a guy who wins first in three games at Evo only getting fourth in SG when he treats SG as one of his "main" games DOES say a lot.

EDIT: @ClarenceMage, go back and watch Sako vs. Ricky Ortiz, SnakeEyez vs. Fuudo, or Bonchan vs. Luffy. Sako couldn't finish a combo to save his life, SnakeEyez refused to stop jumping even after he got anti-aired literally every time (and that's not mentioning that awful Ultra 2 switch that even the commentators just said "yeah, this won't work" to), or Bonchan going back to the fireball strategy that failed early in the set in his last few games after getting flustered.
 
I used to be a card-carrying member of the "SG players suck!" club, but a guy who wins first in three games at Evo only getting fourth in SG when he treats SG as one of his "main" games DOES say a lot.

"Only" 4th place is kind of an odd statment. If you ran that top8 again today any one of them could win, IMO.
 
I used to be a card-carrying member of the "SG players suck!" club, but a guy who wins first in three games at Evo only getting fourth in SG when he treats SG as one of his "main" games DOES say a lot.

EDIT: @ClarenceMage, go back and watch Sako vs. Ricky Ortiz, SnakeEyez vs. Fuudo, or Bonchan vs. Luffy. Sako couldn't finish a combo to save his life, SnakeEyez refused to stop jumping even after he got anti-aired literally every time (and that's not mentioning that awful Ultra 2 switch that even the commentators just said "yeah, this won't work" to), or Bonchan going back to the fireball strategy that failed early in the set in his last few games after getting flustered.

Sako vs. Ricky: http://www.reddit.com/r/SF4/comments/1rrj5q/the_biggest_single_usf4_change_nobody_is_talking/

USF4 has added a frame of hitstop to every intance of hitstop in the game. This falls under "game changes makes players inconsistent", and in this case Sako is known for having frame perfect execution... but the frames got changed. Having your muscle memory suddenly not work would definitely put anyone on tilt, and since Sako keeps sharp with many characters it's unsurprising his E.Ryu timing is not as well-practised as it could be.

Snake Eyez vs Fuudo: Let's start off by acknowledging this is a shit matchup for Zangief. A REALLY shit matchup for Zangief, as long as Fei Long manages to maintain that spacing of -just- outside of Gief's effective range, which is -just- within Fei Long's effective range, where Fei Long has ways to convert off of counter hit c.MP and ways to counterpoke Zangief that Zangief can't keep up with.

One of the major ways to bypass footsies in sf4 is jumping, where you jump forward in anticipation of a button and you whiff punish with a jumping normal into full combo. It's understandable that Snake Eyez wants to go for the risk, since the footsie game is so stacked against him. This matchup is a consistent choice between bad options and other bad options, so SnakeEyez has to make either ludicrously good reads all the time or capitalise on mistakes, but Fuudo wasn't making any mistakes. He switched to U2 to try discourage Fuudo from doing uppercuts, but Fuudo adapted by not ever jumping and doing non-uppercut anti-airs.

This is one of the main problems in 2D fighting games, and in SF4 in particular, where because of the nature of the 2D spacing game, shit matchups occur where one character gives no shits about another character's options, and the only way for one player to win is to be stupidly risky and try make a lot of hard reads which naturally make mistakes happen. All Fuudo has to do to win is Not Lose since most neutral situations is winning for Fei Long, but what SnakeEyez has to do to win involves risky as shit hard reads which is going to fail more times than work.

Luffy vs. Bonchan: cbf going over this match but it's a bad matchup for sagat in the same way that Long vs Gief is bad for Gief, except take Sagat's shit walk speed making his footsies poor, Rose's fantastic footsie game, combined with Rose's way to compete with and take advantage of Sagat's fireball game puts Bonchan in a similar boat.

Sako is the only one Losing due to personal failure, because dropped combos are definitely Losing, but combo timings got changed and it takes time to adjust.

Snake Eyez and Bonchan, they didn't really Lose in-game, with what options they had available to them. Really, they lost at the Character Select screen.

Edit: Uhh, shit, how does this relate to Skullgirls? Fucken, it's more balanced, because characters have heaps of options, and assists are a great equaliser to patch holes in neutral game. Yeah, that'll do.
 
Luffy vs. Bonchan: cbf going over this match but it's a bad matchup for sagat
Is this new to Ultra? I distinctly remember this being a good matchup for Gat because his Buttons manhandle Rose.
(Due to various discussions on why Gat's Buttons beat Rose's, and Rose's beat Juri's, while Juri's beat Gat's; creating a funny triangle)
 
long story short valentine doesnt really need nerfs and lower tiers may not need as many buffs?
 
Some frame data changes and delayed wake up make Rose the new best in game from what I hear.

Other than that, does anyone ever talk about how match ups should be played in this thread? I know it's riveting stuff how we don't stack up to any other community and all, but if nobody's really on the level for tiers to matter, why don't we just have a huge slap fest over how we think match ups should be played?

I'm willing to show off how much I don't know about this game and I'm sure the rest of you are too.

Edit: James Chen said Ricky Ortiz has the most beautiful hair in the fgc. Bitch don't know bout Severin. Ok, I'm done.
 
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Is this new to Ultra? I distinctly remember this being a good matchup for Gat because his Buttons manhandle Rose.
(Due to various discussions on why Gat's Buttons beat Rose's, and Rose's beat Juri's, while Juri's beat Gat's; creating a funny triangle)

Rose's fireballs have had their startup slightly buffed letting her play the fireball game vs Gat better, faster LP Spiral lets her convert c.MP xx LP Spiral more consistently, and EX Soul Spiral is invincible on hit letting it pass through close fireballs but I don't think we saw much of that exactly.

My impression from watching Luffy vs Bonchan isn't necessarily that Rose's buttons beat Gat's buttons now, but that Rose's fast ground speed let her make situations where she can close in to a range where Gat's buttons don't really matter, and then abort to a range where her zoning beats his zoning.
 
Is this new to Ultra? I distinctly remember this being a good matchup for Gat because his Buttons manhandle Rose.
(Due to various discussions on why Gat's Buttons beat Rose's, and Rose's beat Juri's, while Juri's beat Gat's; creating a funny triangle)
As an old rose main, it's always been a bad matchup for Sagat.

Fullscreen you reflect, midscreen you bully with s.hk and crouch strong, and upclose you bully even harder with crouch strong.
 
Other than that, does anyone ever talk about how match ups should be played in this thread? I know it's riveting stuff how we don't stack up to any other community and all, but if nobody's really on the level for tiers to matter, why don't we just have a huge slap fest over how we think match ups should be played?
I tried doing something like this on the Parasoul subforums once, I gave up since.
 
I tried doing that on the Parasoul forums with Val and niggas were straight up like "lol don't use j.mp".

I'm done with that particular matchup discussion.

Actually, wasn't it this very thread were someone had Elda come in and discuss the Pw Val matchup.

I'm kind of scared to discuss matchups with this site as a whole because it still has this weird fear of Valentine.
 
So fuck it. Let's dispel that fear right here and now.

Everybody talks about this matchup or that matchup being free for character xx and then the most in depth discussion becomes "There's nothing she can do. If she does, use this move."

So let's start with Valentine.

What makes her strong? What's her general game plan? What are some notable buttons to use? What are her movement options. What advantages does her movement create. How does that change vs:

Fillia. Why? @Duckator @winnie you guys are smart, and good at this game. What do you think?

Cerebella. Why? @SonicFox5000 @dekillsage you're actually the best, thoughts?

Peacock. Why? @Swiftfox-Dash @worldjem @mcpeanuts @Mr Peck , thoughts?

Ms. Fortune. Why? @KhaosMuffins @Elda Taluda , thoughts. Anything change since that quick write up khaos?

Painwheel. Why? @Elda Taluda @konkrete @Negus Eyoel y'all got anything. I know Taluda explained some things a couple pages back.

Parasoul. Why? @keninblack @severine

Another Valnentine. Why?

Double. Why?

Squigly. Why? @Yaya

Big Band. Why? @Flotilla

Fukua. Why? @MegamanDS

Eliza. Why?

I didn't want to tag you guys multiple times. I'm just going off of the top of my head and from the evo results list.
 
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My thoughts are basically the same. 6 - 4 in Val's favor. Fortune has a difficult time challenging Val when she's in the air, and the loss of invincibility on headless Fiber upper makes headless weaker against Valentine. The j.HP speed buff doesn't really change anything. Fortune wins on the ground, but getting Val to stay grounded is the hard part. IMO, Fortune's best options are to try and tag Val when she's landing (which is difficult due to assists, Dead cross, j.HP/HK), or fish around with j.MP or a well placed air axe kick.