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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

she's more or less the same in each respective's tier list.
@Spencer not disagreeing but you made a bit of confusion. so you're saying that filia is in B+? theoretically you might as well put them both in the same boat now in your opinion? play me real quick then.
 
A: Peacock, Val, Parasoul, Fukua
B+: Filia, Fortune
B: Bella, Double
B-: Squigly
C+: Big Band, Painwheel

I'm saying the list above is very close to how I view the balance of SG a week ago.

I'm not really sure where I'd place Fukua now as I've not got any games in vs her since the change. I'll be on tonight though if you want to get a set going (Can't do it now, I've family coming into town for lunch).

Justification:
Peacock: Some of the most oppressive gameplay, absurd meter gain, high damage at all ranges, gets all of this without having to take risks
Val: The best of this class (MF, PW, Filia) with fullscreen punishes, defense that switches to offense quickly, hyper mobile
Parasoul: Good at almost every aspect of the game. Good meter gain. Difficult to open up. Amazing normals.
Fukua: (Not saying anything until I play Fukua v2.0)
Filia: Once she hits... that might be it for you. Fortunately, she can have a hard time hitting.
Fortune: Probably the perfect balance of this class (PW, Filia, Val). She has what she needs without being too strong or too weak anywhere.
Bella: Pretty predictable approach, but she has all the tools she needs to get in. It does require her to take risks and make guesses though.
Double: Gameplay seems to revolve around your opponent fucking up to really capitalize... meaning if they don't fuck up, you don't get to open them up.
Squigly: Has issues getting in. Scary once in.
Big Band: Everything he does feels like he's betting on 50/50. Hit A-train? Punish. Miss? Get punished. Hit Beat? Punish. Miss? Get punished.
Painwheel: Has issues getting in. Scary once in. Abysmal meter gain.
 
Spencer said:
Double: Gameplay seems to revolve around your opponent fucking up to really capitalize... meaning if they don't fuck up, you don't get to open them up.

Actually, double's offense is amongst the most basic/fundamental in the game, and it's still quite potent. Her neutral game is functional, and the doublejump makes it threatening.

j.HP xx j.HK Fast fall as a pushblock bait/tick throw is absolutely wonderful and gets you full combos on a correct timing read.
Then, she has her very long low/throw mixup game. Conditioning your opponent into either of those is quite painful.
After any touch, she can then go into her variety of conditioning-based resets that easily lead back into themselves.

Double's biggest issue is that if you are ever made to block as double, she is pretty much instantly dead.

I will disagree with the notion that Double can only capitalise on mistakes, implying she's a punishment-heavy character. She definitely has the ability to force a gameplan on someone.
 
Spencer said:
Peacock: Some of the most oppressive gameplay, absurd meter gain, high damage at all ranges, gets all of this without having to take risks

?????????????????????

Did Peacock get some secret buffs or is she still the character who's best reversal option is DHCing or raw tagging sans a good guess?
 
So she actually has an invuln reversal option which puts her above a fair number of the cast... It may be no Pillar or whatever, but it isn't bad. So the "good guess" bit is still more desirable than nothing.

Take a character with no reversal, put her in the corner, defend. You'll be begging for a 50/50 immunity to throws and normals.

She also has a teleport which gives her some kind of out though it can be baited.

Finally, she also has a wall o' shit that makes it difficult to get in on her, so the two things above are half bonuses.

Not to mention that even if you do take her out, it might be a pyrrhic since realistically, half your team is dead, down on meter, and Peacock's second is jumping in with 4 bars.

So on my view, Peacock isn't really taking many risks. The risk is taken by the person having to get to her.
 
I think that's more fair. Though I've played some damn good rushdown Peacocks. Her damage has to be respected.
 
"Reversals"
Every character has some form of invulnerable reversal. No one's slowing down on pressure against Cerebella in fear of horns, it's Dynamo they have to worry about. It's the same for plenty of other characters regardless of whether their reversal is meterless or not. Call it mashing or whatever, but the fact remains you actually have to worry about it when applying pressure. The same can't be said of the 'oh-so-godly-punch-move' that you can pretty much just jump if you don't want to go for the risk of missing a grab.[/spoilers]

teleport
Peacock isn't Dhalsim, and teleports under pressure pretty much put you in the same position if not worse for being counterhit.

Hard to get in/wall of pain
It's difficult to get in on ANY player that's paying attention regardless of their character. The biggest difference between Peacock and the other characters is that 9/10 she wants to KEEP you out. Whereas most other characters will keep you out while simultaneously opening you up starting their offense.

She killed half my team
Unless you're good enough to take her out without losing half your team? You can really apply this phrase to any character. How often do we have a "Filia's broken" thread? Or talk of how OP Val is?
no risks
Peacock isn't taking the same types of risks as other playstyles, but if you think committing to specials that glue you to the ground isn't risky, I don't know what to tell you.

No. Just, no.
Consensus on Peacock pretty much always comes down to whether or not you can get in. Doesn't that seem strange for a character that takes no risks? And more player based than character based? If not then why don't we say the same of Fortune, Filia or even Painwheel? Is it some strange coincidence that stream monsters are pretty sure players can bring back matches with 3-size Bella, but see the same of Peacock and consider it over from jump street?
 
Lol... People still think peacocks mp bang isnt just freaking awesome... Wow. And i know it isnt just me cause i see like every peacock out there using and hitting people with it.

So it doesnt hit crossups or jumpjns aimed towards peacocks back... That still means that it hits 90% of the neutral offense that people are throwing up against peacock.

Yeah it isnt great as an anti reset... But its STILL better than what painwheel gets... Not that that matters a whole lot seeing as to how they are completely different characters... But yeah... Its really funny to hear any peacock complain about mp bang nit being good when its freaking godlike.

And this coming from someone that had peacock on his main team at evo '13 so it aint like i dont use the character.
 
No one said it wasn't good, but the idea that it's some gdlk move that makes Peacock infallible as a character is ridiculous.

Crossups? Jump ins aimed towards her back? LOL.

BANG!
BbYofsB.png


Try any jump in ever that isn't instant air dashed or the like.

If you're getting hit by mp.bang often you probably also get hit by raw tags and mashed supers.
 
Not everyone has a metereless reversal that is mashable. And yes, you absolutely play different vs Bella (reset in the air vs on the ground. Cross up are dangerous. etc.).

And while she may be no Dhalsim, things like lk.george can make her teleport more safe (I've been knocked out of countless combos by a good bomb/teleport combo).

It may be hard to get in on any character, but even if that is the case, Peacock is still more difficult to get in on. So you can keep moving the goalpost, but Peacock is still at the tippy top (if by nothing more than a playstyle that forces keep-away).

And yes, the consensus might be whether or not you can get in on her or not... so what? She's amazing at keep away. That's the point...

And "gdlk move"? Maybe the issue is with your reading? Both Dime and I have said that it isn't as good as some, but it is something which some of the cast doesn't get. It is a reversal that is mashable and can (and does) catch people out. When used alongside other things (up-back, pushblock, etc.) it isn't bad at all... just don't mash it all the time and I won't punish it all the time.

And stay away from the ad hominem... it cheapens your argument.
 
I never claimed everyone has a mashable meterless reversal, so I'm not sure what this point is even referring to.

This is only applicable while in neutral so it's not really saying much for how amazing teleport is. Let me clarify before anyone jumps the gun again. Teleport is great tool, just like mp.bang, but it's can hardly be considered "a way out" considering it can only take Peacock toward her opponents location at the moment of input.

This is subjective on so many levels I could release a light novel filled with reasons this is just no. And no one said Peacock wasn't top tier. I just don't agree that she takes no risks to play her game.

And my point is Peacock has the tools for keepaway but it will always come down to the players knowing the matchup whether or not you can get in. Once there it seems kind of absurd that the character that takes no risks is just assumed to lose regardless of player skill.

Maybe the issue is with yours. I can blow up a screen shot of Dime calling it godlike if you need help. Or we can assume I was speaking in general about the opinion on the move based on player feedback. Oop.

I don't consider it ad hominem since I can hardly call this a debate when I'm commenting on "points" like
"Peacock will kill have your team" as if it's some guaranteed absolute that has nothing to do with the player. Even if I did, is suggesting a probability really ad hominem? I mean it's pretty likely that if you're not blocking Double's reverse car that you're not keeping your eye on Double yes? It's also pretty likely that if you're a player who's style is so aggressive you get hit by a move that can be both jumped and grabbed, that you also get hit by moves with similar timing on the appearance of active hitboxes.

=/

@Adeveis
I'm not sure how anyone can infer that from what I've said.

@Spencer seemed to have this idea that Peacock doesn't take risks to play, and I don't agree with that on any level. Anything I've brought up as far as reversals was in response to that.
 
If the opponent has any kind of forward momentum or stuck in a long animation (airdash, hairball, fly+ j.mp, j.hp glide, parasoul j.lp, savage bypass, lock n' load), you can pretty much teleport for free. In some cases the opponent can do a special or super to punish you, but it is dependent on timing. Missed the timing causes the super to go the wrong way. Also is some cases, because of the forward momentum the super won't reach peacock in time or just whiff (I think hairball > gregor won't reach before peacock can block after teleport). Then there is the fact that peacock can make her teleports safe with bombs, item drops, and assists. All of which can take out some supers. It is dependent on the character and player, but teleport can in fact be a way out.
 
No more than anything else used in hypotheticals where the opponent does something that can be taken advantage of.

Saying that teleport is a way out for Peacock is like saying jumping normals are a way in for Valentine. It will ALWAYS be specific to the situation and not to the move itself.

What is this video supposed to be proof of exactly? That Peacock has a teleport? The one time TJ didn't get punished for it in the first match,he was saved by LnL assist. Not bomb, because if you have time to setup a lk.bomb that protects your teleport you're probably just as well where you are. Not raw because, like I said, it's not really a way out. And not any other peacock only combination because it's not some get out of jail free card. If anything it proves my point in that Peacock takes plenty of risks to play because she has to commit to specials for pretty much everything.
 
BikiniBibleChan said:
No more than anything else used in hypotheticals where the opponent does something that can be taken advantage of.

Saying that teleport is a way out for Peacock is like saying jumping normals are a way in for Valentine. It will ALWAYS be specific to the situation and not to the move itself.

What is this video supposed to be proof of exactly? That Peacock has a teleport? The one time TJ didn't get punished for it in the first match,he was saved by LnL assist. Not bomb, because if you have time to setup a lk.bomb that protects your teleport you're probably just as well where you are. Not raw because, like I said, it's not really a way out. And not any other peacock only combination because it's not some get out of jail free card. If anything it proves my point in that Peacock takes plenty of risks to play because she has to commit to specials for pretty much everything.

i didn't say she could be saved by bomb only. I do recall saying bomb, item drop, and assists were ways to make it safer which tj proved. You will also see that at 15:50 in the video, khaos airdashed, tj teleported, khaos tried to punish with super, the super whiffed. What my point was in my previous post was that you can't say without a doubt that teleport is useless for getting out of pressure when there are so many situations where it can be used to that affect. Playing competitively in a fighting game is all about knowing what your opponents options and habits are, and using your tools to take advantage and counter them. Telling every peacock player or aspiring ones that teleport is not a useful tool for getting out of pressure, or telling Val players they can't use their normals to get in is just nonsense. It's important to know that they can be used because the situation might occur for that player. They may face someone who doesn't know how to punish teleport so in that instance it is a get out of jail free card. Just like if someone didn't have a way in a certain instance to stop parasoul from doing j.lp. In short every move in the game is situational and risky.

As for Peacock needing to commit to specials, that notion is also absurd. It is important to use peacock's normals as well to counter the opponent. Like for example hitting filia out of a predictable airdash with c.lk or zoning with j.hk. There are more examples than that and my point is peacock is not at all completely dependent on her specials.
 
Assists are not exclusive to Peacock so that can be said about any character. Bombs do work, but had no examples in the first video and still adhere to what I was saying about being in a position to use a bomb in the first place. Unless you're referring to fake teleport, item drop is a no-no and seeing as Peacock doesn't even move when using that, it'd be closer to a sing charged Squigly reversal--and if we're counting pre-emptive combinations then, again, this is not a trait unique to Peacock.

Only I've never said teleport was useless. It seems to me that the mere implying that a move Peacock has may not be as great as implied by statements like "no risk" and "godlike" makes users assume I'm saying they're all terrible and Peacock is terrible. I'm not, and in multiple posts now I've said that the moves you all are referring to are good, just not as free as implied.

It's only nonsense if your ability to understand concepts is flat. Telling Peacock players that teleport gets you out of pressure without the inherent understanding of the mechanic is setting them up for being punished. Telling Val players that jumping normals will get you in without any thought at all or as SG players LOVE to phrase everything they lose to: brainless/braindead is not going to help them when they get blown up by assists, good spacing and reversals.

I don't understand how you keep reading my posts and jumping from point a to z. I say mp.bang isn't as great as everyone keeps pretending it is, you say I'm upset that it's not godlike. I say teleport isn't a get out of jail free card, you say I'm claiming it's useless? HOW????

And are we really doing this? Hypothetical theory fighting where a player may come up against an opponent that doesn't know how to deal with something? I thought this was the tier list discussion, not the hey-this-character-is-really-good-if-your-opponent-is-really-bad thread. If this is the case Big Band is top tier due to HK giant step and A-train in certain situations.

Yes, because we all know the core of Peacock's game is keepout using c.lk, and j.hk. ¬__¬
Before you do another post that jumps to extreme conclusions, read what I'm saying carefully:
c.lk and j.hk ARE indeed tools Peacock can use--j.hk in particular being extremely useful in zoning, but to imply that the core of Peacock's game does not revolve around her using specials she has to commit to in order to zone and in some cases(soid) approach is flat out untrue. A Peacock that doesn't use these specials is like 1/2 of a character, and a bad one at that as her normals are nothing to write home about.
[/QUOTE]
 
BikiniBibleChan said:
This is only applicable while in neutral so it's not really saying much for how amazing teleport is. Let me clarify before anyone jumps the gun again. Teleport is great tool, just like mp.bang, but it's can hardly be considered "a way out" considering it can only take Peacock toward her opponents location at the moment of input.

BikiniBibleChan said:
I don't understand how you keep reading my posts and jumping from point a to z. I say mp.bang isn't as great as everyone keeps pretending it is, you say I'm upset that it's not godlike. I say teleport isn't a get out of jail free card, you say I'm claiming it's useless? HOW????
[/QUOTE]

Don't put words in my mouth. The first thing I said to you was meant to be taken as a question. I was merely letting you know what it seemed like you were saying. Then my posts after were to prove to you that peacock can use teleport as a way out because of what you said in the quote above. If you were not trying to say it was useless for getting out of pressure, I'm sorry for misinterpretting the line "Teleport is a great tool, just like mp.bang, but it's can hardly be considered a way out considering it can only take Peacock toward her opponents location at the moment of input".

I never once said Peacock takes no risk. That was Spencer.
BikiniBibleChan said:
Only I've never said teleport was useless. It seems to me that the mere implying that a move Peacock has may not be as great as implied by statements like "no risk" and "godlike" makes users assume I'm saying they're all terrible and Peacock is terrible. I'm not, and in multiple posts now I've said that the moves you all are referring to are good, just not as free as implied.
[/QUOTE]

Don't assume so much. I never once thought that you were trying to say peacock is bad after you replied to my first post. To repeat I was merely trying to prove teleport is not as useless for getting out of pressure as you may think.

BikiniBibleChan said:
And are we really doing this? Hypothetical theory fighting where a player may come up against an opponent that doesn't know how to deal with something? I thought this was the tier list discussion, not the hey-this-character-is-really-good-if-your-opponent-is-really-bad thread. If this is the case Big Band is top tier due to HK giant step and A-train in certain situations.
[/QUOTE]

1.) You were the one who started using hypothetical theory fighting to prove your points
2.) You missed the whole point of what I said. Perhaps I wasn't clear and for that I am sorry


BikiniBibleChan said:
Yes, because we all know the core of Peacock's game is keepout using c.lk, and j.hk. ¬__¬
Before you do another post that jumps to extreme conclusions, read what I'm saying carefully:
c.lk and j.hk ARE indeed tools Peacock can use--j.hk in particular being extremely useful in zoning, but to imply that the core of Peacock's game does not revolve around her using specials she has to commit to in order to zone and in some cases(soid) approach is flat out untrue. A Peacock that doesn't use these specials is like 1/2 of a character, and a bad one at that as her normals are nothing to write home about.
[/QUOTE]
You implied Peacock always has to commit to specials. I was only saying that her normals can also play a big role. Again I am sorry for not being clear.
 
I guess I don't understand. It sounds like you are arguing semantics to intentionally be obtuse. Of course it is situational. Isn't it all? A move that worked 100% of the time ie one that isn't situational would be brutally broken. Can Peacock teleport and get away with it every time? Of course not. Does it function as a GTFO? Absolutely.

And the reason it is ad hominem is because you have no idea how I play... so snarky douchebaggary such as "If you're getting hit by mp.bang often you probably also get hit by raw tags and mashed supers" is unnecessary. I'm not drawing sweeping judgments about your play style, and I'd appreciate the same consideration.

What I said is that she gets high damage, good meter gain, and oppressive gameplay risk free. I stand by that. Does she have to take risks in her defense? Yup. Less than some. More than others. So if that is the only point you're really trying to make (that Peacock isn't an "I win" button), take it. It is yours.

You were saying that her best reversal option is DHC. We were saying it isn't. She has plenty of reversal options (to include DHC)... like her invincible reversal and teleport. They aren't end-all, be-alls (and no one is saying that they are), but they are far better than nothing.

So let me sum up my original point so we know where we are at.

I think that Peacock has great damage, oppressive gameplay, and amazing meter gain all risk free. The risks she does have to take are similar to or less than most of the cast and as such she will always remain at the top of every tier list as the onus is on her opponent to find an opening.
 
I believe it is time I give my tier list. Here it goes!

-I think Valentine and Peacock are the best

-Below them is Filia, Fortune, and Fukua (though who knows how the final changes will affect this)

-Parasoul.....I want to explain that Parasoul has really good normals that are hard to compete against allowing her to do pretty well mid range. She also has projectiles to deal with people full screen and a decent reversal against people who get too close. That said, Parasoul has no air reversal of any kind nor mobility so most of the time you might want to reset her in the air. While pretty much everyone else has some air option (valentine can double jump out of air resets and filia can airdash out) Parasoul is pretty much screwed as her own air vortex proves very effective against her. She gets her own tier because she has an option from any range on screen like the characters above her (excluding Filia), but her defense is not as good as theirs.

-Cerebella, Double, Squigly. I might say Cerebella is better than Double and Squigly but I haven't yet decided. I do firmly believe Double and Squigly are in the same boat. I don't feel like explaining it right now though as I feel like it would be very long.

-Painwheel, Big Band. I don't think these two are bad, I just think they are really hard to play effectively. They both don't have a really good option for getting a hit. Their mix ups to open up the opponent aren't so great which would be fine if they had better options full screen than the ones they have. I personally believe Big Band should be played 2nd with double or cerebella behind him.

I considered common teams while making this.
 
Wtf?

"If you get hit by mp bang you are probably the type of person that gets hit by raw tags and mashed supers as well"


The fuck is this shit? Why is anyone taking that line of argument seriously? Thats like saying you are the type of person that gets hit by raw cr.lk.

Raw tags... Especially bellas, are GOOD. mashed supers... Especially bellas and the occasional gregor are GOOD. mp bang is GOOD. Like seriously? I dont play peacock anymore but when i did i hit people with mp bang all damn day long... All day. I still play against peacocks that hit me with mp bang all the damned time. ALL THE TIME. Its a FANTASTIC pbgc. Its a great long ranged AA. Why is this question even a thing? Its like someone telling me ryus srk isnt good because some characters can make it wiff on crossup or play mindgames against it by not sticking a long range jumpin at it and thusly making it wiff.



Peacock DOES take risks. She takes a lot of them. But most arent huge risks once she establishes half screen distance or more. Her biggest risk is the opening cause that is where she is weakest.


Also... Wth is with this "every character plays keepaway" stupidity? No character can throw out the amount of damage that peacock can while far away and running away from you and no character can cover as many simultaneous approach angles, like she can. And no character... IIRC has as much projectile damage as peacock does.

If you think mp bang is shit, it says more about your LACK of skill rather than anything else.

And what is with linking that mp bang hitbox? You realize that the back of the bang extends nearly all the way to peacocks hat right? That shit is GOOD man.


And the evo champ hits people with mashed supers all the time, the runner up hits people with raw tags all the time...


I'm just flabbergasted at this point.
 
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Double is so important to the meta, rating her low seems kind of crazy to me.

Basically for me:

A tier: These are the 2 characters I IMMEDIATELY think about when making a team. If my team can't deal with both of these characters, I consider it unviable.
Valentine, Peacock

B tier: These characters tend to be super versatile, you will see them in top tier shells all over the place. While they may not be super difficult to deal with on their own, they bring so much to a team.
Fillia, Double, Parasoul, Fortune

C tier: These characters also feature on quite a few teams and you almost can't go wrong picking them.
Cerebella, Fukua (maybe residual salt)

D tier: She needs a team built around her but with the right setup can compete even with the top tiers.
Squigly

E tier: These 2 are interesting. They both have one super amazing trait contrasted with very obvious flaws compared to the rest of the cast.
Big Band (he can fit on a team pretty easily and his assists are fantastic, in fact you will see him on some top tier shells, it is just that a team has to be built to counterbalance his weakenesses or he will add some flaws to the team that picking another character could have avoided)
Painwheel (her offense is absurd, everyone is very aware of this, but her troubles from a neutral situation and straight up lack of defense are often problematic. You have to build a team very specifically designed to make sure Painwheel can start on offense and never lose her momentum. There are few teams that would prefer to take Painwheel over another character because she is a bit of a selfish character during team building too. That said, you aren't losing at the character select just by picking her, you just need to be acutely aware of her faults)
 
My tier list, complete with assists since i dont think solo character tier lists make much sense when everyone is running assists:


A+ peacock (with H LNL, or cerecopter, or updo and mk bomber)
A val (with updo and mk bomber)

B+ filia (second on a trio using hp updo assist with mk bomber anchor, or third on a trio using hp updo assist)
B fortune (with updo assist or cerecopter, or both, or hk hairball assist with pillar as a trio) probably the same when at second.
B parasoul (with mk or lk bomber assist) her tough/bad matchups against val and peacock move her lower for me. After that i think she is at least even against the rest of the cast. Her matchup against fortune us in a state of flux right now. Still seems playable but i dont have any GREAT head off fortunes to play against)
B painwheel ( on point WITH BB BEAT EXTEND L ASSIST, or hk fiber assist) both are invulnerable assists that painwheel can confirm off of)
B bella (with cilia slide assist on a trio team, or mk bomber on a duo or trio team)
B- double (imho the most fundamental character in the cast, shes SLIGHTLY hampered by most of her best starters being scaled while also not having the best resets in the game while ALSO not having the greatest damage output even on non scaled starters) the bombers keep her higher though. Cats is useful as a safe dhc, but arent great outside of that)
B- squigly (with beat extend L assist, or hp brass assist using m shadow assist)
C+ Big Band ( using beat extend L or hp brass assist) i think BB is better than this, but he's still relatively new and is woefully under explored as far as assists that help him out, go.
All he really needs is an assist that he can use very well, that assist might well be m shadow as it seems to protect BB high recovery moves and allow hit to confirm things that he normally wouldnt.
ability to open opponents isnt bad at all since he has low/throw as a non metered mixup, and also has high/low as a mixup that is safe when using the right assists. He has a good metered reversal... Also safer when using assists, and he has parry, allowing him to bulldog his way into positions that other characters simply cannot. It will be awhile till BB is near fully explored. I expect a good parrying BB, with high level mindgames and good execution and a good assist for BB to be as high B+ or maybe even A-

But he isnt there yet, and honestly... May never get there.
 
Last edited:
PandaGirlBingo said:
how


How is he that high or how is he that low or how does he use those assists? I'm not sure that was even serious... So...
 
Dime_x said:
Lol... People still think peacocks mp bang isnt just freaking awesome... Wow. And i know it isnt just me cause i see like every peacock out there using and hitting people with it.

So it doesnt hit crossups or jumpjns aimed towards peacocks back... That still means that it hits 90% of the neutral offense that people are throwing up against peacock.

Yeah it isnt great as an anti reset... But its STILL better than what painwheel gets... Not that that matters a whole lot seeing as to how they are completely different characters... But yeah... Its really funny to hear any peacock complain about mp bang nit being good when its freaking godlike.

And this coming from someone that had peacock on his main team at evo '13 so it aint like i dont use the character.

It's definitely better then nothing, but it's still pretty bad. I've low profiled that thing so many times with Filia's c.HP and Ringlet/Fake Ringlet that it's kind of laughable.
 
hmm so laugh at mine.

A+: peacock(the bitch gives meter and deals big girl damage along with the usual shells of double butt makes the damn thing spectacular)
A+: val(the best mobility with the ability to call assist and confirm as well as her tools makes her versatile and can dictate the match in a couple of seconds)

B: filia:( the assist and mobility of this character but somewhat stubby normals makes for poor neutral. neverthless once she's in, she has resets that need to be respected.)
B+:para: she can move in pretty well tbh and can mix up easy if she's got the pressure. her reset potiential from napalms and the air reset makes her quite formidable. sadly her air movement is a bit limited.
B: fortune(she has the mixups and can play as two characters that if monitored (headless) can be a force to reckoned with, her reset potiential are different for each state. what's undermining is that her dash ducks under certain projectiles)
B: double( meter happy and what not, she's either middle or anchor just because of the meter usage. she has somewhat of a predictable approach but once in, she's got throw baits into luger and her dash makes it easy for dash grabs.)
C+ Bella, squigly.

Bella: i would either switch with double.....it could go either way. her resets are good and she has a ton of 50/50's along with good synergy with all of the cast the only problem is getting in vs people that know bella.

Squigly: meter hungry as hell like double. the difference is that double can luger into car against peacock while sing lvl2 into sbo can sometimes trade. another thing is the charge aspect and that she needs to find time into finding a charge and while its not hard, versus a few certain characters you can get pressured before getting charge.

C: PW, Big band:

PW: most people put her on point and there's a reason. most of it is because PW wants optimum support from the optimum team. and really just needs a defensive measure and a lockdown to keep her in and at the same time needs a middle man that'll work meter-independent and also can build meter fast. also her assist suck compared to the cast

Big band: this is extremely out of my field but as far as i see it. big band has some issues in neutral and he's just amazing for assist but he's a big boi which is a big target. and more importantly he's a really high risk/ high reward character. everything he does is very committed to the act and so making the right reads can be absolutely glorious but even the smallest muck up can make band very very regrettable to play with if you decide to throw out a-train and whiff.

Unknown tier: fukua

at first i thought she was B tier. she was adequete yet not exceptionally in all areas of concentration

with the patches i DON"T think it moved her down in the slightest i think she stayed the same. she still has all the tools to function well on her own she just got the stupid taken out of her.
 
Brokenloose, sorry for the spoilers, but long posts irk me. Especially when I feel like the conversation is going in circles or I want specific people to know I referred to them without having to dig through a wall of text.

-- I think what's causing the biggest disparity in opinions here maybe our personal definitions of risk and pressure.
I don't consider any character at double jump height 5 characters away, to be pressure. When I say pressure I'm talking about the point where the character is in. Where a mistake in your blocking can lead to you being opened up. Under this type of pressure teleport is virtually useless

-- When I talk of risk I'm talking about the trade off you get for committing to a move. [I'll touch more on this in response to Spencers final point.]

-- I still don't consider it ad hominem personally, but I'll apologize if you don't feel it was necessary. If it helps I was speaking in general rather than about you specifically.

-- And this is what I'm saying doesn't make much sense. If Peacock does all of this using specials, assists, and normals, it can hardly be said she isn't taking a risk since every usage of a bomb forces her to be locked in place where she can be counterhit easily by a player that has managed to weave through a pattern or get close enough that an assist may catch her.

-- If we're using my definition of pressure, ala character x has you well within reach to be opened up, then yes I do believe Peacock's best reversal option is DHC, because committing to a move that can be grabbed and jumped is not going to yield great results against a player that's aware of her options. What of Peacock's do you truly have to respect in this sense? DHCs.


-- I agree with everything you've said except that she gets them risk free and that's been my point in case it wasn't well illustrated. Nothing is risk free if we're talking tier lists, the highest echelons of player skill. There is nothing Peacock does to get any of those things that does not put her in a position where her opponent can close in and potentially open her up and destroy her due to reasons listed above. This doesn't change the fact that she's good or that any of her specials are good or have use, but I can't agree with her gameplay being called free on any level.

-- Raw tags are good. They're also extremely punishable. I mean think about what it says about the SG metgame when blocking a raw tag is hype. Think about what it means that you called MP.bang godlike despite it's multiple weaknesses. Think about what it means that one of the most consistent complaints/call outs is about a player mashing super.

A lot of players have a hyper aggressive style that does not account for a players options, and this is where they get blown up. This is the point I was trying to make with MP.Bang. That if you're playing in a way that doesn't respect a character's options, you're just as likely to not respect the player's options and get punished just as hard.



-- It's actually closer to saying pre-patch Fukua being susceptible to throws was a big hamper on her gameplay. Going for a grab on her? Great! It beats quite a few of her options, have fun committing though. Going for MP.Bang to get out of pressure? Super! It'll beat all ground normals, is an easy confirm into Argus and will sometimes nip air normals like BB's j.mk. Loses to throws, and jumping in general. Have fun committing. And PBGC canceled into a reversal is a good idea for any character, so this doesn't speak much for the amazingness of the move.



-- Being a character half way across the screen with projectiles does tend to mean you're taking less risks than a character that doesn't. Thanks for establishing this I guess? Don't think that anyone argued otherwise but it's helpful info I suppose.


-- Not sure what you're referring to with that quote. I don't recall saying anything like "every character plays keepaway" but I've been getting misread all day so maybe quote what you're talking about I can properly respond. As for the rest of it? Ok? What exactly are you trying to say here by pointing out the Peacock has strengths exclusive to her?



-- This is what I was talking about earlier, @Adevis. Not in regard to you specifically but as a whole it seems that I can't say MP.Bang isn't as good as people assume without people jumping to conclusions. Dime, I don't know what to say to you on this, but as someone known for having particularly lengthy posts, it might do you well to actually read the one's you're responding to.



-- You do realize that you can go for instant overheads jumping normals predicting this move in pressure with impunity right? You do realize that you can just grab it right? You do realize that anecdotal evidence on how effective it is has little place in a tier list discussion, where it's assumed players of equal skill both have this knowledge...right?


-- And? You're saying this like it doesn't have anything to do with the players themselves. If you're under pressure with 2 bars and Double on anchor, why would you NOT Dynamo? Even with one bar, it's not even comparable to mp.bang due to super pause, better hitboxes, and real invincibility. It's also interesting that you bring up TJ and his raw tagging when he has access to the illustrious punch move. Why raw tag into Bella if you've got that on back? Could it be that under pressure of an assist backed point in high level play, the best you can hope to hit is the assist because it's not nearly as good as people pretend? Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust maybe.

I might be coming off much more harsh than I intended, and if that's the case, I do apologize, but to make my points clean and easy to understand this is what any of my recent posts amount to:

1. Peacock takes plenty of risks to play her game.
--Subsets including things like MP.Bang not being as incredible as players keep pretending.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Is this yours? Or whose? And based on what? And arguments? And things

Peacock is a damage monster, chip monster, the best battery in the game hands down, and makes you play her game outside of a few exceptions. If you make a mistake, you're back to square one, if you still have life anyway. Relatively weak options up close and cornered. Usually has a team built around her. Susceptible to snaps. Not the greatest assist choices.

Val gets to do what she wants for the most part since she could easily be out of range for most character's options. Very fast and can pick up after nearly any assist confirm, possibly loading a vial in-between. Backdash. Very good reset game. Slow normals but who cares when you'll be out of range during the startup. Can be stuck in front of a core2duo as an annoying point/battery. Very suseptable to snaps. Garbage assist choices.

Parasoul's probably the best all-rounder in the game. Good, far-reaching air and ground normals, great dash, best airthrow in the game with a meterless conversion (ground as well), two standing overheads and a standing low, napalm shots/tears can ruin days. Has a decent reversal unlike the above two. Has an upwards-hitting air normal unlike most of the cast. Fits pretty much anywhere on a team. Good assist choices. Lacks an air dash and double jump, but still has j.MK to float around with I guess. Projectiles disappear when she's hit, unlike most others in the game. Can't compete with Peacock or Fukua in the projectile game, and has a hard time getting in on them. Main reversal is a down-charge move in a game where IADJHK exists.

Updo has unreactable mixups for days, the best reversal in the game, hitboxes, mashed gregor crossups, air gregor, fenrir xx air gregor, near-full magic series, IADJHK. If she gets in, she's probably staying in. Fits more-or-less anywhere on a team. Great assist choices. Snap her out and you now have to deal with those assist choices. Can have a hard time getting in on some characters.

Fukua was full autopilot, "oh you got hit by a fireball time to dash j.HK" confirms from half-fullscreen and j.HK xx j.Lball 50/50s. Now that that's gone, I guess we'll see the rest of her if Fukua players don't ditch her for Val or something. Probably better off due to the buffs she's getting. Good assist choices. Great chip damage. Shadows.

Fortune got spayed, but she's still hanging in there. Head's not as derp as before, fast ground normals, very mobile in both the air and ground. Mixups are good. Good assist choice. Head doesn't do all the work from fullscreen like it used to (welp.) Fiber isn't the answer to everything anymore (welp.) Can't really compete with Val in the air, and the head wouldn't do much to help that. Bombs probably do a number on the head, making the Peacock matchup harder for her than it used to be.

The hathead girl has great damage, good mixups, great air normals, a reflect, armor, a run with several options, command grabs for all situations. Can be a mixup machine. Has the best tag in the game. One of the best reversal supers in the game, and two supers that nuke assists. Great assist choices. Does good in any position. Can fight Peacock, but Val not so much. DP is good for killing IADs, but not much else (besides faking into 360.) Not the most mobile of the cast and is a bit predictable on incoming. If your mixups fail, she's pretty much left for dead, and if not, she has to catch her opponent all over again.

Home of the horizontal Updo and DHC xx Catheads, Double is everyone's favorite anchor unless you're running Bella instead. Has a few good normals, but outside of 2/5/j.LP they are quite slow. Fast-traveling projectiles for poking, but they each have obvious blind spots and all have long recovery. Decent low/throw game. Half her resets are avoided by double jumping or air super, so I guess Parasoul is wrecked. Flashstep helps versus fireball characters if you're not predictable with them. Weight requires specific combos to her for a large amount of the cast. Worst tag in the game unless you set it up properly. Large and free to fuzzy guard setups.

Squigly. She does stance things sometimes. The other times she's probably double jumping everywhere, throwing out j.LK, j.HK, j.HP or divekicking. Mixup game can be pretty crazy. Does good damage. Can make most blockstrings safe by stanceling out. Can catch people doing stupid things with Sing xx Opera, or them doing nothing with Sing xx Daisy. 2LP beats several ground moves and catches pushblocks nicely. She has a wide variety of good assist choices, but you could probably get better versions from characters above. Her fastest ground normal misses on half the cast crouching, and her crouching normals are slow. Free to jumping overheads. Her one meterless reversal needs stance charge and is one-off. Her dash and backdash are pretty meh. She's very meter-hungry, and not the greatest at building it herself. If she's not using meter, she's using her valuable stance charge, but there are setups that help with that. Probably best as a user/second after a battery/point, but you could just pick from the above characters and have access to as good or better tools.

Big Bank is "untapped potential" city, as few play him decently outside of assist and j.LP xx Cymbal, land Rush Punch/A-Train xx Super or some variation on this flowchart. Gets damage off of anything. Probably the best character to have on your team if you want to nuke assists. Very good assist choices. Taunt makes his damage output-meter ratio even better. Several risky specials that leave him open to everything. He has a parry, but few use it so who knows~. 5MP is OP, pls nerf. Largest character in the game, and larger than most characters while crouching; you do the math.

Painwheel supposedly has players, but you'd never find them unless under a blue moon. Once she gets in, her mixup game is devastating; she still has to get in though. Backed by a good lockdown assist or Fortune H Fiber, she can contend with the best easily. Highest(?) damage output in the game. Has fly, unfly, and fly cancels. Hatred guard as armor. Worst in the game at building meter. Slow. Val has a better air game. Has to have a team built around her. Meh assist choices, but better than Val at least; you're not using her for the assist, but the DHC xx Install. She needs more players maining her, but that takes effort, and why do that when you could pick up Fukua?

TL;DR - don't read this, do something productive
 
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Maybe this is just semantics but I think if your tier list goes below B-/C+ or there is a gap like A+ to B for you in this game you need to go play some other fighters and remember what a truly bad character feels like.
 
Laughing my ass off at anyone who thinks this game's balance is as good as SF4 or any GGXX version.

Also laughing my ass off at anyone who thinks that even post-nerf Fortune isn't miles better than Val in literally every regard.
 
Iphantom said:
Maybe this is just semantics but I think if your tier list goes below B-/C+ or there is a gap like A+ to B for you in this game you need to go play some other fighters and remember what a truly bad character feels like.
It is 100% semantics, I just started at A and went a letter down each time because I find that easier to read than A+++ A++ A+ A A- etc
 
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Yeah I hate the S, A+++, and so on stuff too.

I also rate relative to the game, so the difference between A and C may be smaller in SG than it is in SFIV.
 
Thanks for the insights in this topic. When I figure out my mains in fighting games, I often end up with low-tier characters.
Not intentionally; it just happens. Necro, Q, 12 in 3rd Strike, etc.

When I do end up w/a top-tier character, it's a surprise. I'm not into zoning that much in fighters. I just love Peacock's classic cartoon theme. She could be a bottom tier grappler & I'd still use her. My 4th main is Bella... Alright, carry on. :)
 
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