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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

IsaVulpes said:
Cynical playing Filia while BLoose plays Val, else both of them would try to lose
I kinda think Broken Loose's Valentine is better than his Filia anyways
 
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Adeveis said:
I know that. However, a lot of people were saying she is untapped. I was just trying to say there's so much that was found with this character that it is a little unfair to call her untapped.

Hilary said:
I also get the impression that Fortune is a very under-represented character with a lot of room to grow.

"room to grow" != "untapped"
 
Cynical said:
Doesn't work at all. J.hk's second hit doesn't hit grounded opponents, meaning that j.hk -> ADC -> whatever move isn't actually a blockstring; someone could just do s.lp or call assist to beat that every single time.
COULD but deal with val assist call 2 frames before j hk. if you block the j hk you're back in defense and if you block the assist you're still up against val doing Iad's and what not

Yes, lets spend a meter to do something that's unsafe (airthrow beats Scalpels) and not very good even if it hits.
this is assuming that val did an airdash otherwise she converts. airthrow doesn't beat scapels people can tech. either that or the frame adv is highly varied


Uh... what? Her air normal priority is sub-par. If you want characters that can push high-priority buttons from up high, look at Parasoul, Bella, or Squiggly.
i'm not talking about air priority in your sense.
barely ANY normals go above so whoever is higher will have advantage

Her ability to call assist from that height and then spend like 5 minutes falling, by which point you won't be in blockstun anymore with pretty much any assist other than a dedicated full-on lockdown.

talk to bomber M.

Nah, everything except her movement and mixup is. Her normals don't actually control any space (seriously guys, j.hk doesn't cover the area directly in front of her like at all) and are slow as shit to come out; her projectile is fucking -9 on block (and, even loaded, it's still -1); her defensive options are only barely better than fucking PW or Squigly.

her projectile might be the case however does anyone punish it? and does anyone punish it after val does double jump w.e?

now with my counter argument i'm in agreement with spencer WHAT would you think of to buff val?
 
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Cynical said:
J.hk is almost entirely terrible; You'll see Val's use it because it's her best option (that is, her other options are even more terrible), but it can't be used on offense at all since it's unsafe on hit unless you ADC it and it's slow as hell to come out, and it's pretty bad on defense as well because it doesn't actually control space very well; sure, those limbs have long range, but there's a big-ass area in between them directly in front of her where she's completely vulnerable. Oh, and for the move to actually work right, you have to get both hits of it, which means being close when you use the 17 frame startup move.

I'm just, I can't, I don't think I can deal with this.

EDIT:

To make this more relevant, I think you just have poor fighting game fundamentals.

If this is your evaluation of one of the best normals in the game, I think there is a lot you just aren't seeing yet. "Doesn't actually control space very well", I'm sorry, it does, YOU don't control space very well.

Valentine's j.HK is an FU move to a lot of other characters air to airs, even characters like Double and Painwheel struggle to outprioritise it with perfectly spaced normals.

You know why the startup doesn't matter all that much? It has a years worth of active time (overall). It is out forever, it is huge and it can be cancelled into MULTIPLE annoying attack vectors.

It is pretty much autopilot - win - round start unless your opponent uses an invincible move or something.

I think you need to re-evaluate how you are playing Valentine, because j.HK is incredible.
 
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DDB said:
I'd imagine Fortune IS unexplored, considering how the natural counterpick to her seems to be to complain about her and get her nerfed.

Head on Fortune I'd say is pretty figured out on how to play optimally at this point. Headless Fortune definitely isn't. People just assume head off Fortune is garbage now which couldn't be further from the truth. Losing Fiber Upper really sucks, I'm not going to pretend it doesn't but it still actually works as an anti-air in certain matchups. SDE Head Off Fortune was completely bonkers, but even after she got nerfed she still can approach attack vectors in unique ways no other characters really can. Far from the best character in the game like she used to be, but still worth playing, and the idea that she's "bad" now is quite frankly really stupid.

That being said, I think headless Fortune is a lot more assist dependent as a point character then she used to be.
 
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Head off fortune is pressure and mix ups for days. Its not even hard to play either when you think of the head as just... hard punch. Which is all it really is.
 
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I've been using head off Fortune a little.

I've always been terrible at head off Fortune though. The problem with going head off is that it is so difficult to get back to head on once you commit. I don't think head off if bad, it still has many advantages, it is just that it is now suboptimal to play ONLY head off and going head off > head on is much much more difficult than head on > head off.

So we need to develop good ways of transitioning back into head on at appropriate moments.
 
nah that sucks you see what you gotta do is sliiideeeeee
then kick the head like a soccer ball. yeah yeah you like that is what you'll say as your opponent is in all the delicious blockstun
 
It's slow and multiple characters can punish it easily on reaction.

I'm thinking more like a blockstring that with assist would allow you get the head back on from a decent distance and still pressure.

EDIT: Except wait, way would you do that... if you had pressure keep the head off!

Hmm, really I think what I'm asking would require an entirely new move haha.
 
oh I wasn't talking about ways to put the head back on
 
dekillsage said:
oh I wasn't talking about ways to put the head back on
Was actually a response to Dreamepitaph, should have quoted haha.

I meant doing zoom > cat call at neutral isn't exactly safe.
 
well at this point if you want to switch states so badly. its either during zoom > cat call at reasonable distance. during incoming character or find a assist that allows you to get back into head on. MIND you that you have a chance of your assist bleeding for that.
 
People forget you can still combo into headspike off a tiger kneed launcher and get a decent combo/reset off combos with normal starters (you just need to be able to combo into c.HP).
 
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FuLLBLeeD said:
People forget you can still combo into headspike off a tiger kneed launcher and get a decent combo/reset off combos with normal starters (you just need to be able to combo into c.HP).
I don't think people are forgetting that?

That's all well and good and as long as you can maintain pressure all is well.

But then if you lose momentum you are in a terrible position, you have no reversal and you have no way to get the head back.
 
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Tomo009 said:
It is pretty much autopilot - win - round start unless your opponent uses an invincible move or something.
Parasoul j.lp beats it clean at round start. I imagine a lot of other good air normals would, but I'm not about to jump backwards and hit a button against, say, Peacock. There's no shortage of moves that start faster and will punch right through it while it's active, as long as you hit in the "center" part of it, not the arms.

Anyways, to answer the quewstion of what I would change, the answer is "I'd let her stay bottom tier with Band" because I don't like the idea of changing the game a lot, but the changes I'd make if "make her mid-tier" was the goal:

1. Remove Dead Cross, give Vials similar blockstun and recovery to Parasoul's tear shot. Right now, Val's projectiles don't do their job at all, really. Going the "Milia/Bang/Chipp" route of "a projectile that makes for an amazing approach tool but you can't throw out a lot for whatever reason" would let it do its job without turning her into a fireball zoner. Probably would also need to make it so that you can't cancel a normal into a vial load.

2. Give both parts of s.mp advantage on block, so she has some actual block pressure.

3. Increase hitstun of the first hit of j.hk to be the same as hitstun from the second hit.

This still wouldn't really make for a character I want to play -- I'd still be waiting for Eliza to hit retail and switching as soon as that happened -- but it would at least let Val do what she's supposed to do.
 
Cynical said:
2. Give both parts of s.mp advantage on block, so she has some actual block pressure.

Dude, what game are you playing? I'm quite confused. Have you never tried pressing 2LP before? You should certainly do that.
 
Getting the head back doesn't seem all that hard. You just force somebody to block your assist and then call it. If you don't have some kind of forward moving assist you're probably in trouble in that department, yeah, but I don't see how its all that different from trying to get space to get a stance charge with Squigly. The main difference being that you can move around (slowly) while charging your stance and putting the head back on from full screen is little bit longer but head-on is significantly faster than a stance charge when the head is close.
 
Jason said:
Getting the head back doesn't seem all that hard. You just force somebody to block your assist and then call it. If you don't have some kind of forward moving assist you're probably in trouble in that department, yeah, but I don't see how its all that different from trying to get space to get a stance charge with Squigly. The main difference being that you can move around (slowly) while charging your stance and putting the head back on from full screen is little bit longer but head-on is significantly faster than a stance charge when the head is close.
Because with Squigly often getting that charge is optimal.

In that situation with Fortune, I would rather go in and take my head off pressure, because that's where head off is nuts. Also stance charging in short bursts is a lot easier than recalling the head in short bursts, it hardly moves at all if you do that.
 
Jason said:
Getting the head back doesn't seem all that hard. You just force somebody to block your assist and then call it. If you don't have some kind of forward moving assist you're probably in trouble in that department, yeah, but I don't see how its all that different from trying to get space to get a stance charge with Squigly. The main difference being that you can move around (slowly) while charging your stance and putting the head back on from full screen is little bit longer but head-on is significantly faster than a stance charge when the head is close.

She moves faster while charging than she does while walking. She will lose her dash and jump obviously, but she actually moves fairly quickly while charging.
 
Tomo009 said:
Dude, what game are you playing? I'm quite confused. Have you never tried pressing 2LP before? You should certainly do that.

Also Light Reka is +1 on the first hit so there's really no reason for Headed Fortune to ever leave herself at frame disadvantage at the end of a string.
 
Light Rekka is actually 0 on block.
 
Jason said:
Also Light Reka is +1 on the first hit so there's really no reason for Headed Fortune to ever leave herself at frame disadvantage at the end of a string.
im pretty sure he was talking bout val. . .
also can you explain what you mean when "Vals projectiles dont do their job"?
 
Jason said:
Also Light Reka is +1 on the first hit so there's really no reason for Headed Fortune to ever leave herself at frame disadvantage at the end of a string.
Yeah that was talking about Val. Fortune pressure is absolutely nuts, but that's her thing. I hope Cynical doesn't think Val's pressure should be as good as Fortune's with everything else she has...
 
I love Mike; he's one of my best friends and I see him as a brother. That said, I would Titan Knuckle him in the face if he got rid of Dead Cross or not allow one to cancel a normal into a vial load.

My god, those are really bad suggestions.
 
Real talk, though. Val could use some buffs.

@Cynical, what if the following changes were made to Valentine? Would you consider her bottom tier then?
  1. Light Bypass is made safe on block, so you can always cancel into it and keep your pressure up.
  2. You can tech throws after air Scalpels.
  3. s.MP is safe on block, with the second part having frame advantage.
  4. Give j.HP and j.HK disjointed (non-vulnerable) hitboxes above Valentine to improve her air-to-air game.
  5. Make it so you can cancel into full combo on hit after air Scalpels so she always has an invulnerable reversal option that "turns the tide" like Gregor.

Would those change your opinion of the character?
 
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Isn't shuriken safe on block making every blockstring safe?
 
Spencer said:
Isn't shuriken safe on block making every blockstring safe?
no
they are -9 enough for any one to jab while you recover
 
Spencer said:
Isn't shuriken safe on block making every blockstring safe?
No, it is I think -9. LK Bypass is -4 though. Which is "effectively safe", can't normal punish it but a lot of character's can super punish it, usually for not much though.
 
Honestly I wouldn't want any buffs to vals normals or her mixups or neutral game. Those are already really strong.

If she does hypothetically need a buff (I don't really think she does) why not increase her damage output slightly?
 
Why arent we talking about Big Band, Squigly or Painwheel hypothetical buffs instead?
 
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Broken Loose said:
okay, let's give painwheel a parry
she already has one, but it is being nerfed, poor painwheel always getting nerfed
 
Broken Loose said:
  1. Light Bypass is made safe on block, so you can always cancel into it and keep your pressure up.
  2. You can tech throws after air Scalpels.
  3. s.MP is safe on block, with the second part having frame advantage.
  4. Give j.HP and j.HK disjointed (non-vulnerable) hitboxes above Valentine to improve her air-to-air game.
  5. Make it so you can cancel into full combo on hit after air Scalpels so she always has an invulnerable reversal option that "turns the tide" like Gregor.

Would those change your opinion of the character?

1. It's already -4, making it effectively "safe".
2. You can do that if they don't punish you right. Don't be a dumbass with scalpels and you will be able to tech as many air throws a you like.
3. s.MP is already safe on block, and the second part is +0 and leaves you at good spacing, and when combined with "The opponnet is probably going to pushblock" s.MP and s.MP MP can actually grant you plus frames while leaving you straight in their face.
4. Alternately, YOU could alter your spacing to be slightly higher! Footsies require spacing, people.
5. There is a secret code in the game where if you hit the opponent with air scalpels close, you hit two punches in the air, and depending on the situation you hit j.MP or j.MK and you'll be able to convert into a combo.
 
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