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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

IsaVulpes said:
How about you get a room with Broken_Loose; Cry each other to the death, winner is allowed to keep whining that their character sucks?
If Val is so good, then explain why every single argument for her being decent always involves some scenario where the other player won't fucking counter-call?

Like I said before, there's a reason why "solo-Val" is considered a joke, and it's not because Val is good. Quite the opposite, in fact.
 
I counter call Val all the time. It's decent, but not great, watch what duck
Does when people counter call him.

The answers... They are out there.
 
Dime_x said:
I counter call Val all the time. It's decent, but not great, watch what duck
Does when people counter call him.

The answers... They are out there.
What Duck does stopped working when Dead Cross got nerfed.

There's a reason why, in any given tournament, half of the top 16 will be running a Filia/Double shell, and Val will appear once or maybe twice. Right now, her and Band clearly lag WAAAAAAY behind the rest of the cast. Like "worse than SF4 Zangief" tier.
 
Cynical said:
What Duck does stopped working when Dead Cross got nerfed.

There's a reason why, in any given tournament, half of the top 16 will be running a Filia/Double shell, and Val will appear once or maybe twice. Right now, her and Band clearly lag WAAAAAAY behind the rest of the cast. Like "worse than SF4 Zangief" tier.
.......excuse me?

explain to me how val is completely garbage in very specific details cause then i can learn whether or not to even begin giving val any respect.
 
Basically, Val's normals are complete shit (much too slow and don't control much space), and she doesn't have something like Gregor that she can use to totally turn the tide and go on the offensive while on heavy defense, so she kinda has to run away and hope you blunder into her. Just don't try to chase her when she does this. Countercall her assists, and don't chase her when she's sitting somewhere that you can't get to -- she can't do anything to you from there, either.

If she decides to go on the offensive, she's just a shitty version of Filia or Fortune. Her lack of any frame advantage except for on her jabs and her multi-hit s.mp (which is easily pushblocked) means she has no block pressure at all, so you only have to guess right on one mixup, and then she's back to neutral (or getting hit).
 
Cynical said:
Basically, Val's normals are complete shit (much too slow and don't control much space), and she doesn't have something like Gregor that she can use to totally turn the tide and go on the offensive while on heavy defense, so she kinda has to run away and hope you blunder into her. Just don't try to chase her when she does this. Countercall her assists, and don't chase her when she's sitting somewhere that you can't get to -- she can't do anything to you from there, either.

If she decides to go on the offensive, she's just a shitty version of Filia or Fortune. Her lack of any frame advantage except for on her jabs and her multi-hit s.mp (which is easily pushblocked) means she has no block pressure at all, so you only have to guess right on one mixup, and then she's back to neutral (or getting hit).
i checked the j hp blocked and hit and it +18. i might've tested this wrong but.... ok

j hk controls space if you do it pre-emptive. basically if val is in the air before you, you might as well start blocking.

she can call assist BEFORE the j hk and then offensive occurs

with the right shell around her. her offensive becomes the defensive and vice versa. i dunno how you play her but playing against other val's like Cloudking makes its interesting to fight against since counter calling is assist specific and if you do you got a val in the air with j mp.

your counter argument?
 
I'd be curious how Gregor differs from bypass in the sense of turning defense to offense?

They are both hard to punish (but punishable) full screen, convertable-into-combo moves. Gregor costs meter, and bypass doesn't so on block, isn't bypass better?
 
Spencer said:
I'd be curious how Gregor differs from bypass in the sense of turning defense to offense?

They are both hard to punish (but punishable) full screen, convertable-into-combo moves. Gregor costs meter, and bypass doesn't so on block, isn't bypass better?
bypass special does not allow combo conversion its a GTFO me move.

on another note @Cynical

you can't mean all her moves are shit and slow cause then by that logic........PW's normals are shit?
 
Cynical said:
Basically, Val's normals are complete shit .
last time somebody said this @Broken Loose turned on training mode for 30 minutes to prove to the one person who said that it was wrong (or at least relating to jab) almost all of her normals are disjointed meaning you can beat out a lot of other characters attacks from a better range, not to mention J.HP is really fast, disjointed, safe on block and hit and you can use it during her IAD.
 
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Cynical said:
Laughing my ass off at anyone who thinks this game's balance is as good as SF4 or any GGXX version.

Also laughing my ass off at anyone who thinks that even post-nerf Fortune isn't miles better than Val in literally every regard.
wut

i wut
 
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So Val's not good because her pressure and defense suck? Then it's a good thing she has assists.
 
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Cynical, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and are mistaking your inability to use Valentine as a sign that Valentine is one of the worst characters of the game.

Your insistence that Valentine's jumping normals are bad for space control are factually incorrect, they are objectively fantastic space control normals.

Her offense isn't as linearly strong as Filia or Ms Fortune, but her ability to attack from angles that other characters can't do shit about more than make up for it - she can get in safer with the right positioning, then gtfo if she wants and then play her stacked neutral yet again.

You are also not correct that "SF4"(whatever mysterious version that might be) has better balance than Skullgirls - There are no characters that are a bad idea at character select screen in SG. The opposite can't be said for any version of SF4, it's got balance issues all across the series. Even in USF4, fucking Deejay exists, and there is literally no reason to pick him. SF4 also has more capacity for matchups to be completely stacked and unfair due to the nature of the neutral game. In Skullgirls, matchup deficiencies can be covered by adding an assist to your solo already, or swapping team members around.

If you are trying to use GGXX as any yardstick for good balance... well, I can't say I'm surprised, but I still get annoyed when people who like Guilty Gear try to say anything about Guilty Gear without actually playing it or making the vaugest attempts at understanding it. GGXX -itself- was a balance mess, where Eddie, Slayer, Millia and Faust shit on literally everyone else.

As always, git gud.
 
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Hey remember that time in Reload where there was literally no reason at all to ever pick Zappa?
Or that time when Jam abared you once and you fucking died?
Or that time in xx slash where I'm so sure someone got stabbed for picking Pot?
Or that time in any sf4 where like 6 or 7 characters just negated your ability to play the game?
Or that time where Akuma just walked so fast he shitted on matchups based on that alone?
Or Chun Vs Zangief
Or Chun Vs Hawk
Or unblockables becoming a real thing and the character's ability to do them only made the game weirder?
Guile Vs Bison
SSF4 Hakan
El Fuerte
Ryu Vs Fei Long

I could really do this all night.

EDIT:AE YUN AND YANG OH MY GOD LEST WE FORGET
 
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iLoli said:
Hey remember that time in Reload where there was literally no reason at all to ever pick Zappa?
Or that time when Jam abared you once and you fucking died?
Or that time in xx slash where I'm so sure someone got stabbed for picking Pot?
Or that time in any sf4 where like 6 or 7 characters just negated your ability to play the game?
Or that time where Akuma just walked so fast he shitted on matchups based on that alone?
Or Chun Vs Zangief
Or Chun Vs Hawk
Or unblockables becoming a real thing and the character's ability to do them only made the game weirder?
Guile Vs Bison
SSF4 Hakan
El Fuerte
Ryu Vs Fei Long

I could really do this all night.
I love well balanced games
 
El Fuerte and Hakan are two of my favorite SSFIV characters proving once and for all that I'm chronically attracted to "low tier".
 
EDIT:Shit was a sloppy post, I'll wake up in the morning with a more informative and education post on the differences between Val and Fortune than a little rant and rave.
 
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Lol hakan v akuma. Terrible times but hakan v ibuki is a hard counter pick, go figure.
 
DeathArcana said:
J.HP is really fast
That really fast 18f normal?

The guy is wrong, don't sprout random bullshit that allows him to quote you and say "Hah!"

Spencer said:
El Fuerte and Hakan are two of my favorite SSFIV characters proving once and for all that I'm chronically attracted to "low tier".
http://shoryuken.com/2012/07/06/evo-2012-is-now-streaming-live/ still good enough innit

SF4 Balance is pretty good, dunno why people are trying to diss it here?
 
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ClarenceMage said:
Cynical, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and are mistaking your inability to use Valentine as a sign that Valentine is one of the worst characters of the game.
This could probably be used as a response to almost anything Cynical posts.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
i checked the j hp blocked and hit and it +18. i might've tested this wrong but.... ok

j hk controls space if you do it pre-emptive. basically if val is in the air before you, you might as well start blocking.
j.hp is 18f and covers almost no space. J.hk is almost entirely terrible; You'll see Val's use it because it's her best option (that is, her other options are even more terrible), but it can't be used on offense at all since it's unsafe on hit unless you ADC it and it's slow as hell to come out, and it's pretty bad on defense as well because it doesn't actually control space very well; sure, those limbs have long range, but there's a big-ass area in between them directly in front of her where she's completely vulnerable. Oh, and for the move to actually work right, you have to get both hits of it, which means being close when you use the 17 frame startup move.

The fact that people think this is some kind of amazing move shows just how bad Val is. Her best air normal is a 17f startup move that only works right at close range on non-grounded opponents and is unsafe on hit if you already used your airdash. Yeah.

The only character in the game with worse normals than Val is Filia. But Filia at least gets actual block pressure.

she can call assist BEFORE the j hk and then offensive occurs
Offense will NEVER be involved if Val is using j.hk.

with the right shell around her. her offensive becomes the defensive and vice versa.
That's true of literally every character in the game with Updo or Pillar. Like I said, every single argument ever for "Val is good!" actually is an argument for "Updo/Pillar/Bomber/LnL are good!" with no recognition of the fact that other characters can also use those assists.
 
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You could cancel into savage bypass on hit to make it safe, you dont necasarily need to adc to make it safe

I guess in theory you could do checkmate incision afterwards to get a full combo but idk
 
18 frames isnt that slow. As a comparison, thats the same speed as doubles j.hp... You know, the one that cant be airdash canceled.

Vals j.hp takes up ALOT of space. I dont know where you get it from that it doesnt. It covers the front and bottom of val.... Which is something that not many normals do from other characters. The problem with vals j.hp isnt its speed or range or hitbox, the problem is its relative lack of active frames (when compared to awesome moves like doubles j.hp active frames) this means that val cant just throw out her j.hp early like double and let the actives do the talking... Noooooo, she has to space it correct.

Oh but wait... She can jump backwards or forwards and call out j.hk to clear the way for her to safely iad cancel into j.hp...


So j.hk weakness of being unsafe is taken care of by airdash canceling it, and val j.hp lack of fire and forget active frames taken care of by early jump j.hk. So that a nice synergy that the moves have.

And this isnt even mentioning that val can double jump backwards, see something she likes and then airdash cancel forward on reaction, into offense.

And i mean whining about an 18 frame move being vals "best" air move... How do you think pw players feel with their 23 frame j.mp? Is it balls now? Nope its still hitconfirmable and flight cancelable.

Vals strength in air moves isnt in overall priority, its in how utilitarian it is. She has a decent air to air dash j.lp, she has good jumpins in j.hp and j.mp she has good air to airs in j.hk and airdash j.mk. The one thing she doest have (thank god) is an easily hitconfirmable air normal.


And as far as every character being able to pick those assist just like val... C'mon man. Val can convert those assist way better than anyone in the cast and she can do it from more varied kinds of movements than anyone in the cast. And she can run in and offend faster than anyone in the cast.
 
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Cynical said:
Laughing my ass off at anyone who thinks this game's balance is as good as SF4 or any GGXX version.

Also laughing my ass off at anyone who thinks that even post-nerf Fortune isn't miles better than Val in literally every regard.

I dunno about SF4, but GGXX has some very real problems with regards to matchups, let alone just how strong some individual characters can be. Love the games to death, but perfect they ain't.

Val is better than Fortune.

Admittedly, Fortune is still a great character herself that I think people sleep on extremely hard. I also get the impression that Fortune is a very under-represented character with a lot of room to grow. She could be better if she saw as much lab work from the community as other characters do.

Val is still developing a lot too, but I don't think there's as many unturned stones for her as there are with Fortune.
 
I'd imagine Fortune IS unexplored, considering how the natural counterpick to her seems to be to complain about her and get her nerfed.
 
Cynical said:
Offense will NEVER be involved if Val is using j.hk.
just cause you don't use that tactic doesn't mean val can't use it in offense NOR did i say raw j hk. now i'n very open to what val players say but this was just like a slap in my face for not addressing the following: calling assist, j hk > ADC into pressure.

Overall your words so far have no merit whatsoever and it seems like you're trying to go off of paper but in practice VAL HAS TO BE RESPECTED. with the threat of bypass scapels to projectile to her high height priority and ability to call assist from that height and do offense. NOTHING about this character is shit. her normals are shit? her air ones? nah you thought.

once again give me a COMPLETE thought on val. list every normal and state why its bad in neutral. explain the weaknesses. explain her strengths. so help me god if you give misinformation and a young players looks at this for reference(which they will)..... jesus help that player
 
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I don't think Fortune is that unexplored. I feel like Taluda discovered most if not all the head on tech and Khaosmuffins found all the head off tech. We seen what she can do with a dp assist from Zeroelopez. Taluda showed us cerecopter is the greastest, Pretty sure someone besides me has played her with drill assist ( Which btw is pretty awesome). Brass H isn't bad neither since it can launch the head across the screen. Her fiber assist is really good for pw. Don't think she is really all that untapped.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Even in USF4, fucking Deejay exists, and there is literally no reason to pick him.

these are fightin' words
 
O wow I didn't know it was this bad.

Lets try to keep the other FG comparison's to a minimum because GOOD GOLLY GOSH its not helping anyones argument. ;P
 
Dreamepitaph said:
just cause you don't use that tactic doesn't mean val can't use it in offense NOR did i say raw j hk. now i'n very open to what val players say but this was just like a slap in my face for not addressing the following: calling assist, j hk > ADC into pressure.
Doesn't work at all. J.hk's second hit doesn't hit grounded opponents, meaning that j.hk -> ADC -> whatever move isn't actually a blockstring; someone could just do s.lp or call assist to beat that every single time.

Overall your words so far have no merit whatsoever and it seems like you're trying to go off of paper but in practice VAL HAS TO BE RESPECTED. with the threat of bypass scapels
Yes, lets spend a meter to do something that's unsafe (airthrow beats Scalpels) and not very good even if it hits.

high height priority
Uh... what? Her air normal priority is sub-par. If you want characters that can push high-priority buttons from up high, look at Parasoul, Bella, or Squiggly.
and ability to call assist from that height and do offense.
Her ability to call assist from that height and then spend like 5 minutes falling, by which point you won't be in blockstun anymore with pretty much any assist other than a dedicated full-on lockdown.

NOTHING about this character is shit.
Nah, everything except her movement and mixup is. Her normals don't actually control any space (seriously guys, j.hk doesn't cover the area directly in front of her like at all) and are slow as shit to come out; her projectile is fucking -9 on block (and, even loaded, it's still -1); her defensive options are only barely better than fucking PW or Squigly.
 
Adeveis said:
I feel like Taluda discovered most if not all the head on tech and Khaosmuffins found all the head off tech.

Don't think she is really all that untapped.

Two players do not make a character complete.

Even when considering all the other Fortune players, you still need a lot more people mapping a character out and looking for (or stumbling across) undiscovered things.
 
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Cynical said:
Yes, lets spend a meter to do something that's unsafe (airthrow beats Scalpels) and not very good even if it hits.

No. Shut the fuck up. You're just making shit up, now.

Air Scalpels is invulnerable 2f into startup, and that lasts until 3f into recovery. It's +0 on block and leads into a full combo on hit. If used from too high up to lead into a full combo, it's also being used from too high up to be stuffed alongside just being a gigantic wall of red. It is factually impossible for scalpels to lose to anything except Car at specifically low heights.
 
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Val's j.hk can hit grounded opponents. I've done it a few times but what really makes it good is if you jump back j.hk. That pretty much stops anyone from approaching her. Even parasoul has to respect it once it's out there ( can't tell you how many times I j.lp with parasoul and it got beat by val's j.hk). If you do j.hk > j.mp, the opponent won't be able to jab you out if you are too high (which you should be). They could call assist and block but Val can land and block the assist, or use her own assist to cover her. Air Scalpels isn't free to grab. It's a 50/50 if the opponent blocks depending on the height. You have to guess if the opponent will throw you or jump + attack. If you are high enough, the opponent can't use either of those options. In fact I think you are safe. Val's projectile is safe if you space it correctly or use your assist. She can also end a blockstring with c.mk safely especially if the opponent pushblocks. Her ground anti airs are much faster than Parasoul's and have better hitboxes than any other character with an anti air normal.
 
@Cynical

Instead of trying to convince you that Val is fine, which is going nowhere... I'd be curious of your changes to balance her out.
 
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Hilary said:
Two players do not make a character complete.

Even when considering all the other Fortune players, you still need a lot more people mapping a character out and looking for (or stumbling across) undiscovered things.
I know that. However, a lot of people were saying she is untapped. I was just trying to say there's so much that was found with this character that it is a little unfair to call her untapped.
 
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