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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Unlike almost any other normal you can chain his jumping punches on whiff. I've had some success when jumping forward and mashing all 3 of them because together they stay active for quite a while and cover most of his body. I still usually go to j.LK or Cymbals though. Also Cymbal Clash is totally safe on block unless they chicken block it.
 
Jason said:
Unlike almost any other normal you can chain his jumping punches on whiff. I've had some success when jumping forward and mashing all 3 of them because together they stay active for quite a while and cover most of his body. I still usually go to j.LK or Cymbals though. Also Cymbal Clash is totally safe on block unless they chicken block it.
If they had some range (preferably EQUAL range too) the whiff cancelling would matter.

As it is they hardly air to air anything. j.HP excluded in some situations.
 
Jason said:
I really wouldn't change LP brass to be any safer. Back in the beta it was -4 and certain characters really had a very hard time doing anything against it if he just kept doing it over and over because of the huge reach.

Its already basically impossible to punish on block at most ranges except by SSJ and maybe Flatliner.


Yeah, i could see that. Just jump over it. Super it as a read and since it doesnt have armor your super is unblockable, pushblock it and give yourself some space or a pbgc opportunity....

I mean minus 4 into another l brass is like 27 frame gap or something... Very easy to jump out of and get above it.

Would it be good? Certainly. Would it be broken? Maybe... Reduce its range slightly then... Which i dont think would be needed.


Also, there's a difference between a minus 4 poke with huge range and converts to combo... And one that doesnt.

But i guess im just used to oppressive poking characters... Most everything that peacocks got seems a helluva lot better than a lp brass that is minus 2 or 4.


I could be wrong. But look at fortune... Lp rekka is 0. Yeah l brass is useable at neutral whereas rekka isnt... But the simple fact that l brass would be a very hard poke to beat... Doesnt in itself make the move to good or BB either for that matter. It is flat damage for 1. And a disadvantage on block for 2.
 
Other ways to balance out an L brass that is negative 2 or 4 or plus on block:


Extend the hurtbox for BB further out underneath his arm.
Reduce or extend his pushback on the move on hit and block.
Extend charge time so he cant "L brass x n" nor does he even get mixups on block/ hit via l brass>a train.
Reduce L brass damage


Etc etc

All I'm trying to do is make it so that L brass isnt a bad poke on block, that gives his opponent momentum... Like it currently does. Id like BB to be more or less even after a block... And probably the same after a hit.

But as i said... There are plenty of things left to explore with BB. I certainly wouldnt call for buffs yet. He only gets better and better in my eyes as i play him and get to know the character and peoples attack patterns against him, so i can parry them down and get mindgames.


But yeah, tbqh... I think parry is WHY he's so unsafe on most of his attacks.

So... In order for BB to be used at his max potential... I think his user needs to be good at parrying.


I mean, a character with a parry and has lots of safe attacking moves would be quite ridiculous.
 
L brass is fine, BB's ground poking isn't something that needs buffing it all. It is his midrange air to air and ability to force opponents in from full screen.
 
I think everything about him is "fine"


"Good" though, is a different story.

Good characters arent made from "fine" moves they are made from great moves. Although we are semantics now... Its a point i feel needs to be made.
 
Ok. His ground poking game is great.

What is BAD, is his mid range air to air and ability to force the opponent to act from full screen.

You can't really say his poking is only average, it is pretty great, it is one of the best things about him.
 
If you say so... But from where I'm standing his ground poking is far from great. Its probably best in game but that alone dont make it great. Its way to easy to simply say fuck this noise and be in the air ... And how can you have a great ground game if no one has to play it?

You cant.
 
Well yeah. look at what I said because that is what I am addressing :p

He sucks if the opponent likes to stay in the air full screen.

He lacks mid range air to air and he lacks the ability to force people to act at full screen like he did in beta.

His ground poking is great, but people don't like to stick to the ground. hence why his neutral is quite lacking in general. If he had another threat to keep you out of the air in addition to MK A train, he would actually be able to play his ground game and would make a lot of sense.

So yeah, the main thing he needs imo is a good air to air poke, preferably buffs to his jumping punches. A faster HK giant step would also stop people from sitting pretty at full screen not at all worried about what you can do.
 
But if they are staying in the air full screen, they aren't really a threat to him either, right?

It is the nature of BB. At no point in the MU does BB or his opponent feel that they have the advantage. It is guess work for both.

His air-to-air doesn't seem that weak to me (though by no means the strongest). His multi-hit cymbal move (lk I think?) is pretty damn fast. While he might have some issue engaging air-to-air, I think with preparation he does just fine (shit... PW gets beat by everything air-to-air up close and has no meaningful air-to-air poke).

Essentially what I'm hearing is we want to leave his strengths intact and remove any meaningful weakness? We want to give him pressure fullscreen, midscreen, and close?

Like I said above, if we want to iron him out, his buffs should almost certainly come at the cost of a few nerfs.
 
Regarding H Giant Step, I had an idea some months ago about the ability to feign it, like Filia's Ringlet Psych. Feigned Giant Step would not cause a hit, but would recover faster than H Giant Step. If this were the case:

  • Certain characters would now have a reason against supering H Giant Step on reaction, since it could be a feign (resulting in wasted meter used up against a Big Band who feigns, recovers, and blocks the reaction super)
  • It could be used for mind games alongside A-Train, baiting your opponent into jumping so you can snag them up.

This is probably broken in some way that I can't forsee, but I might as well throw the idea out there.
 
Flotilla said:
Regarding H Giant Step, I had an idea some months ago about the ability to feign it, like Filia's Ringlet Psych. Feigned Giant Step would not cause a hit, but would recover faster than H Giant Step. If this were the case:

  • Certain characters would now have a reason against supering H Giant Step on reaction, since it could be a feign (resulting in wasted meter used up against a Big Band who feigns, recovers, and blocks the reaction super)
  • It could be used for mind games alongside A-Train, baiting your opponent into jumping so you can snag them up.

This is probably broken in some way that I can't forsee, but I might as well throw the idea out there.
This is actually pretty interesting, use the fact that it is so reactable and make a use of it. For Feint into A train to work, though, it would need to be a REALLY fast feint wouldn't it? Due to A train being blockable from the peak and all.
 
Tomo009 said:
This is actually pretty interesting, use the fact that it is so reactable and make a use of it. For Feint into A train to work, though, it would need to be a REALLY fast feint wouldn't it? Due to A train being blockable from the peak and all.

Big Band benefits from player predictability even if it's not on reaction. Scaring the opponent into holding up at all can be useful.
 
Spencer said:
But if they are staying in the air full screen, they aren't really a threat to him either, right?

It is the nature of BB. At no point in the MU does BB or his opponent feel that they have the advantage. It is guess work for both.

His air-to-air doesn't seem that weak to me (though by no means the strongest). His multi-hit cymbal move (lk I think?) is pretty damn fast. While he might have some issue engaging air-to-air, I think with preparation he does just fine (shit... PW gets beat by everything air-to-air up close and has no meaningful air-to-air poke).

Essentially what I'm hearing is we want to leave his strengths intact and remove any meaningful weakness? We want to give him pressure fullscreen, midscreen, and close?

Like I said above, if we want to iron him out, his buffs should almost certainly come at the cost of a few nerfs.


Yeah basically, thats what I'm trying to avoid... A character that is to all around, yet still manage to give out a buff or 2 to make him slightly better.
 
Adeveis said:
Can't you just whiff lp as your feint?

L Giant Step is -52 on whiff, dude.

EDIT: Why the heck would someone try to super s.LP on reaction, whaaat
 
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Lol... I think he meant st.lp...
 
I'm asking because I've whiffed lp half screen to make my opponent think i was doing giant step.
 
How much damage does Heavy giant step > Brass > SSJ do?

From full screen it already has a fairly high reward built into it. To buff it too much (which in my view isn't too far from where it is right now) would give you a fucking ton of potential damage... plus the momentum... for free, right?
 
Spencer said:
How much damage does Heavy giant step > Brass > SSJ do?

From full screen it already has a fairly high reward built into it. To buff it too much (which in my view isn't too far from where it is right now) would give you a fucking ton of potential damage... plus the momentum... for free, right?
You don't get momentum from SSJ. EDIT: Unless you do it while cornered I guess.

Landing HK giant step right now, is very very rare unless your opponent messed up super hard.

Reducing startup a little wouldn't make it free, it would just mean it could whiff punish.
 
Tomo009 said:
You don't get momentum from SSJ. EDIT: Unless you do it while cornered I guess.

Landing HK giant step right now, is very very rare unless your opponent messed up super hard.

Reducing startup a little wouldn't make it free, it would just mean it could whiff punish.

H Giant Step is a good move, I don't think it needs less startup. Its only problem is that from fullscreen there are situations where it is almost ALWAYS a bad idea to use it; vs. Peacock is one of those situations. With no ambiguity at all in the move you're doing, Peacock is free to punish H Giant Step's 24f startup with Argus as she pleases.

The reason I suggested feign is becase it wouldn't make it any harder to punish H Giant Step on reaction, but instead give a reason to actually jump instead of countering it, therefore making it more useful for dictating your opponent's movement as was intended. The opponent is still free to react to H Giant Step with a super, but they take on the risk of losing meter if it was a fakeout Giant Step.
 
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Flotilla said:
Peacock is free to punish H Giant Step's 24f startup with Argus as she pleases.

The reason I suggested feign is becase it wouldn't make it any harder to punish H Giant Step on reaction, but instead give a reason to actually jump instead of punishing it.
The opponent is still free to react to H Giant Step with a super
Could we stop being confusing and say "countering" instead of "punishing" in the situation you're talking about?
You counter a startup, you punish a recover. Right?
 
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I think the term everyone uses is "stuff". But whatever, semantics.
 
Tomo009 said:
You don't get momentum from SSJ. EDIT: Unless you do it while cornered I guess.

Landing HK giant step right now, is very very rare unless your opponent messed up super hard.

Reducing startup a little wouldn't make it free, it would just mean it could whiff punish.

But that's my point. If we were to buff it to hit more often, then we have effectively buffed his ability to land that not insignificant combo off of it.

While I'm all for adding things to BBs playstyle, we have to be careful that in so doing, we aren't allowing him to stick too much extra damage... and since his damage is so front-loaded (greedy I'm told is the term) small changes can have big impacts.
 
Spencer said:
But that's my point. If we were to buff it to hit more often, then we have effectively buffed his ability to land that not insignificant combo off of it.

While I'm all for adding things to BBs playstyle, we have to be careful that in so doing, we aren't allowing him to stick too much extra damage... and since his damage is so front-loaded (greedy I'm told is the term) small changes can have big impacts.
I don't think it is changing his playstyle.... I thought the point of that move was to get people to want to jump. Right now it only does that WHEN YOU USE IT, which means it is gonna be punished, so it doesn't really help.

Yes small changes can have big impacts, but it was asked what buffs we would give to the character. That is the main thing I would like, it was certainly better back in beta but not sure if that move was ever proven to be broken good... BB wasn't considered great even back then.
 
I'm not arguing that BB could use some buffs or at least some quality of life changes (and I don't think he's the only one).

I'm just saying this is ground wherein we need to be quite careful. He's got almost the full kit. He's got a DP, immense punish damage, decent combo damage, untechable air throws, untechable ground throws, a mashable super, and pressure at every range (even if it is easy to avoid, you still have to respect the hk.GS or risk eating an easy 4k(?) damage).

My point is that buffing a character requires caution because something as easy as changing the speed on hk.GS could (and likely will) lead to more damage being applied... and that damage is not nothing if he can get his 3-hit combo off.
 
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I agree with Spencer, you wanna be real careful if you buff Big Band. Back when he had 1 hit of armor on L Brass he was kind of broken as hell. He's fine right now (IMHO) but it wouldn't take much of a buff to make him way too good.
 
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I get the reasoning behind the light brass nerf but i feel like he needs something to kara himself backwards with during neutral so he can space them better. His walk anywhere speed is bad and rightfully so, but with beat extend losing invincibility before jump height i feel there is a small something missing.
 
So illustrate my point now that I'm home:

hk.GS > hp.Brass > SSJ does 4874 damage.

God help you if you have charged taunt.

It then does a whopping: 6205

That's almost bnb level damage... from full screen... while pretty safe vs a fair amount of the cast. If he has the taunt, he also keeps momentum (puts him right in their face on wakeup), meanwhile you only give about 1/8th of a bar of meter.

To put that more into perspective (assuming solo BB):

You would almost kill a bad assist call. You'd take about 2/3 of the points life. My PW would have to give you about 50% of a bar of meter to do the same damage. And it is relatively safe (not perfectly safe), and due to the strength of SSJ I'd argue that I'm more at risk trying to reset BB (mashing) than he is trying to fish for a full screen hk.GS. Case in point, I almost just lost a match because I tried to reset a BB with my assist and ended up eating a mashed SSJ taking both of my characters below half. One more mashed SSJ just like that, I'd have lost a match I was pretty solidly winning.

So I think if we do buff BB, we have to be silly cautious about it. Maybe BBs day in the sun isn't solo or as point. He does provide a scary DHC option and some of the best assists in the game (if I see one more beat extend...).
 
"pretty safe vs a fair amount of the cast" is wrong. You can tech chase but you are going to be really far away from them.

Again, it certainly isn't safe, many character can reaction super, some can punish with other things even from really far. From about 2/3 of the screen a lot can get in off a jump and get a full punish. It is 68 frames on whiff.

I'm not trying to argue back against you that it SHOULD be changed, but some of your reasons for not buffing it are slightly dubious and in my opinion are the opposite, reasons that the move is not anywhere near as powerful as you are saying.

@mcpeanuts

I agree armour on LP brass was nuts, I never opposed the armour nerfs, it was just that last patch before retail where giant step got heavy nerfs that I didn't get, it never seemed overwhelmingly powerful even when they were like that.

HK Giant Step is relaly hard to get to do its job, I thought the point was to get opponents to jump predictably, but it only scares people when they see BB in the middle of the move and from there it isn't going to hit. So HK Giant Step ends up becoming a move that you can very rarely catch your opponent out with when they aren't looking for it to get some long range damage and end up back at neutral.
 
Can't you reaction counter-super? If someone were stupid enough to super your start-up, you've just got an easy 4.1k (5.5 if taunt charged) damage. I don't think it would work vs everyone (Double car which shuts down all slow recovery moves or Peacock Argus... but you've got Brass for her), but it should work vs most of the cast right?

Not to mention that the window is fairly narrow to reaction on start-up (too soon and you get hit by the overhead, too late and you eat the sound bounce). It is more than doable of course, but it is hardly free. I definitely missed that window more than once and that was with knowing exactly when it was coming because I was in training mode.

I could also dash > jump > J.mp with PW and get a full combo, but I could not do it on reaction and had to preemptively dash and the timing was still super, super narrow. I doubt very much that most of the cast could do it, and the few that could would have a hell of a time in doing it successfully.
 
The only reason why i dont agree with the giant step buff us because i dont see the unblockable property on it as something that is a tier 1 strategy. The fact that it hits at fullscreen only for the unblockable is the thing that throws out red flags like... "This shouldnt be a big part of your strategy since BB wants to be closer than this to his opponent"


Ive always seen it as a move that is useful against certain types of projectile pressure... Not many, to be sure. But mostly as things that would be useful.... As an assist. Like peacock with hk giant step... Or any character at full screen... You call giant step... They have to jump and they cant hit your point because your point didnt open themselves up.


I just dont see it as a "use this move on point" kind of move...
 
On point, it's a threat move imo, it's only really there to occasionally remind your opponent that it exists. If they're at full screen they WILL remember it, so they try to either forward jump, limiting their near-future movement momentarily, so you can start your poke/counterpoke/notpressbuttons neutral game, and if they neutral or backjump you just walk forward and gain space.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
On point, it's a threat move imo, it's only really there to occasionally remind your opponent that it exists. If they're at full screen they WILL remember it, so they try to either forward jump, limiting their near-future movement momentarily, so you can start your poke/counterpoke/notpressbuttons neutral game, and if they neutral or backjump you just walk forward and gain space.
That would be nice if there was a good option to counter precisely that vector from that range though. I mean you could probably jump forward Cymbal Crash, but I would call that a more defensive tactic than an offensive one.

You can gain space, but probably not into an effective space for Big Band either haha, because they are above you, A train wont be effective once they are there.

The reason people don't see it as a "use this move on point" kind of move is because it is so ineffective to actually do so.

EDIT: This is getting quite theory fightery now
 
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I don't remember if Mike did something to HK Giant Step to stop it from being effective as a meaty attack.
 
Hello :^)

Now that it's been a little while since Evo I'm curious what everyone's tier lists look like now. I've been hearing a lot of people saying Val is low tier, which has got me wondering, is that what most people think? For a while I think everyone's top 3 in some order was Val, Fortune, Peacock, but then Fortune got nerfed and now Val has kind of fallen out of favor. What does everyone think the top 3 is now? And I guess the remaining 8 while we're at it.
 
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