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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Jason said:
Bella really doesn't fall into the 'extreme damage' category since her recent nerfs.

Sure, she does good damage with a few situational, character specific, corner-only combos but against the vast majority of opponents her damage is almost as bad as Parasoul's.


definitely not. just looking at the bella combo thread, people's bnbs are doing 9k+, where Parasoul maxes out on a situational 8K
 
Jason said:
Bella really doesn't fall into the 'extreme damage' category since her recent nerfs.

Sure, she does good damage with a few situational, character specific, corner-only combos but against the vast majority of opponents her damage is almost as bad as Parasoul's.

Bella is doing 10k damage midscreen with 1 meter. She definitely has one of the highest damage outputs in the game midscreen and corner.
 
woah since when did bella do 10k midscreen
 
dekillsage said:
woah since when did bella do 10k midscreen
This one is universal. This was before the few damage nerfs she got, but coupled with an assist, you can still net about 10k damage. There are even more damaging midscreen stuff on lightweights.
 
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That's not midscreen rayplay

But I'm sure that Devil Horn loops is pretty midscreen.
 
Sick!!! I know where I'd put the assist for the extra bit of damage. I'm not a fan of these starters though, but I'll get it eventually.

Edit: and yeah in the corner I already have 10k vs the light weights. Very easy stuff v-v
 
When it comes to 1v1's, this is my rating list (the lower the number the better):
1. Ms. Fortune/Painwheel
2. Parasoul
3. Filia
4. Cerebella/Peacock
5. Valentine
6. Squigly
7. Double

The list doesn't really work with strict tiers though, I just calculated it by seeing how each character matched up with each other character and the ones with more easier matchups end up being higher up. The characters on the same level are there because they ended up having equal values to each other.

Generally I would say the game is pretty balanced though, especially if you compare it to many other fighting games, but if I had to make a tier list I guess it would be:
A+: Ms. Fortune, Painwheel, Parasoul, Filia, Cerebella, Peacock, Valentine
A: Squigly, Double

Remember this only considers 1v1 matchups, and also I probably am not the most credible source since I have no tournament experience and I don't play in advanced lobbies. This is based off empirical evidence from my games in beginner/intermediate lobbies, games in quick matches, and watching videos.

Of course the rating/tier list completely changes when you start factoring in teams.
 
RemiKz said:
This one is universal. This was before the few damage nerfs she got, but coupled with an assist, you can still net about 10k damage. There are even more damaging midscreen stuff on lightweights.

Damn that looks really hard. s.HP to Kanchou and run-stop are both really tight.

Its probably only about 9K post nerf but point taken.

If anybody cares this is my current opinion on the game.

A+ - Filia, Fortune, Valentine
A - Parasoul, Double, Peacock, Painwheel
B - Cerebella, Squigly
 
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80% Lean said:
...

PW number 1? You crazy!

My "how I feel the game is balanced" 1v1 tier list (ie relative to PW):

1 Para, Bella, Squigs
2 MF, Filiia
3 Val, PW
4 Double, cock

My "probably closer to the truth" 1v1 tier list:

1 MF
2 Filia
3 Bella
4 Para
5 PW
6 Val
7 Double
8 Squigs
9 Cock

MF and Filia are the whole package. Good damage, mobility,mixup/reset options, and just all around good.

A bella who doesn't have to contend with enemy assists is a bella with huge damage who can get in to use it. She drops off vs a team. She does have mobility issues relative to the cast, but they aren't super pronounced.

Her priority and zone game mean you are likely missing health when you do confirm. Her combos aren't mindblowing damage good, but they hurt in between her stupid tear spam. Much respect though, she is not easy to learn or play.

PW, Val, Double... this list order is some kind of arbitrary. Each is strong and horrifying when they finally get to confirm... but damnit, what does it take to confirm... a lot.

Squigs... I don't really know. This is based off what I've read. I'm a sheep.

Peacock without an assist is food to be played with and eaten at your leisure.
 
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All your 1v1 tier lists are trash

1. Ms. Fortune
2. Filia
3. Parasoul
4. Double
5. Squigly/Painwheel
6. Peacock
7. Cerebella
8. Valentine

git gud
 
Spencer said:
I edited my post. Happy now?
I'm never happy. <3
(I guess I should provide my own explanations on the list I posted.... Give me a bit to do that.)
 
IsaVulpes said:
Solo Peacock is food to be played with and eaten at your leisure


(No, I will never tire of linking this)

I'm just saying, betting the odds, I would have lost money there, but I would ultimately make it up in the long run.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Too many tier lists (joke or not), not enough backings or explanations.

A+ - Filia, Fortune, Valentine

They're really a no-brainer in terms of the top tier because air-dashes give you so much mobility and capability to open people up in the neutral game, and once you do that they also give you a ton of options for resets. Its so much harder to properly pushblock or alpha counter correctly against these sorts of characters that it makes their offense significantly stronger then their competition, both in the neutral game and with resets and mixups.

Fortune's air-dash isn't as good as the other two, but she makes up for it with the head and her extremely high damage output.

A - Parasoul, Double, Peacock, Painwheel

Parasoul and Double work great simply because they have tools to fight at any range and have great assists.
Inspite of Peacock's zoning nerfs her upgraded reversals and high damage output keep her solid.
Painwheel's flight mode gives her all the options that the air-dashers have up close (and more) and her meterless damage is some of the best in the game but her weak neutral game keeps her out of A+ tier.

B - Cerebella, Squigly

Squigly primarily has big problems with getting in and opening people up. Squigly's divekicks are extremely easy to pushblock compared to air-dash rushdown, similarly attempting to pressure people with SBO just results in getting pushblocked out again. Stancels in the middle of blockstrings make her tricky to defend against up-close but she doesn't really have great options for getting in and sticking to people in the neutral game. Once she does get in, she can do well but she doesn't have PW's damage, sticking power or reset potential. Bad forward dash means she can't convert from her grounded mixups and assists as well as Parasoul or Double can either.

Bella, again, has problems with opening people up. Her main mobility options, LnL and Tumble Run, usually just cause you to eat a reaction super. Plus her command throws lead to very lackluster damage compared to other characters offensive options, especially outside the corner.
 
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Jason said:
Bella [..] command throws lead to very lackluster damage compared to other characters offensive options, especially outside the corner.
Yeah, MGR only leads to 8.5-9k Damage for 1 Meter

Can you please stop calling Bella damage low
 
IsaVulpes said:
Yeah, MGR only leads to 8.5-9k Damage for 1 Meter

Can you please stop calling Bella damage low

Maybe if you were more helpful and not just condescending I would see the error of my ways.
 
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Im surprised you guys are still debating the tier list. The game hasn't even come out on all systems yet so I think we should just drop the subject for now and wait till a later date when we can actually put Squigly on a tier list. I tried to move the subject on to match ups a while back and Im going to try again. So the is one character who's match ups i would really like to know. This character is Ms. Fortune the one character I know almost nothing about now.

Any one want to help me out and shed some knowledge about Fortune's match ups?
 
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Jason said:
Damn that looks really hard. s.HP to Kanchou and run-stop are both really tight.

Its probably only about 9K post nerf but point taken.

s.HP > kancho is actually extremely easy. Run-stop takes a little practice to get down but isn't a problem once you get it.
 
winnie said:
Im surprised you guys are still debating the tier list. The game hasn't even come out on all systems yet so I think we should just drop the subject for now and wait till a later date when we can actually put Squigly on a tier list. I tried to move the subject on to match ups a while back and Im going to try again. So the is one character who's match ups i would really like to know. This character is Ms. Fortune the one character I know almost nothing about now.

Any one want to help me out and shed some knowledge about Fortune's match ups?


too my knowledge, i don't think ms fortune specifically loses many matchups, but I know she does really well against Parasoul and i imagine does well against peacock.

I think Double is about even for her, double can take all the necessary precautions to shut down fortune's offence, but then again has trouble creating offense for herself.

I would think the only matchup fortune may have problems in is Val + Assist, since I think Val has the better air to air/mobility game, and if she has an assist that can force fortune to cool her shit and block, then Val can move in easily on her.
 
RemiKz said:
s.HP > kancho is actually extremely easy. Run-stop takes a little practice to get down but isn't a problem once you get it.

You must have a very different definition of "easy" then I do, sine I've been trying to do ground chain into kanchou for the past 15 mins with maybe a 5% success rate.
 
Jason said:
You must have a very different definition of "easy" then I do, sine I've been trying to do ground chain into kanchou for the past 15 mins with maybe a 5% success rate.


what are you trying to prove?
Bella has good damage, period.
If you can't do it, that has nothing to do with the character
 
Fortune with head off + assist vs bella is a nightmare
 
Uh, iirc

7-3 vs Bella (Head shuts her down completely)
6-4 vs Parasoul (Head murks her neutral, and neutral is the best thing she got)
5-5 vs Peacock (Head is a very valid anti-zoning tool, but quickly racks up the damage from eating Georges)

Rest I dunno

Khaos said she doesn't have a bad matchup though, so everything else should be 5-5 or better as well
 
i now disagree with the whole 'squigly sucks because she cant pressure, she gets pushblocked' thing

when all im doing is cr mk into cr hp you cannot pushblock me and youre already in a frame trap with any of my special moves. if you block my special move, im cancelling into an opera and eithre hitting you or calling an assist and getting another 50/50. her mixup is really good, her resets are really good, her combos are easy, her assists are very good, shes very good.
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
i now disagree with the whole 'squigly sucks because she cant pressure, she gets pushblocked' thing

when all im doing is cr mk into cr hp you cannot pushblock me and youre already in a frame trap with any of my special moves. if you block my special move, im cancelling into an opera and eithre hitting you or calling an assist and getting another 50/50. her mixup is really good, her resets are really good, her combos are easy, her assists are very good, shes very good.


you forgot dat easy damage!
 
solo tier list =

fortune best by a lot
valentine second best
Filia third
squig 4
bella 5
parasoul
painwheel
double
peacock
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
i now disagree with the whole 'squigly sucks because she cant pressure, she gets pushblocked' thing

when all im doing is cr mk into cr hp you cannot pushblock me and youre already in a frame trap with any of my special moves. if you block my special move, im cancelling into an opera and eithre hitting you or calling an assist and getting another 50/50. her mixup is really good, her resets are really good, her combos are easy, her assists are very good, shes very good.

Its pretty damn easy to pushblock between the cr.mk and the cr.hp or the cr.hp into whatever special move (which leaves you wide open). Canceling into SBO means your opponent gets to hit you with a free super, which gets you nowhere unless you caught them meterless.

Also putting cr.HP in the start of your combo knocks about 1-1.5K off of your damage due to all the scaling.

Also I never said she can't pressure when she gets in, I said she has problems opening up her opponent during the neutral game.

what are you trying to prove?
Bella has good damage, period.
If you can't do it, that has nothing to do with the character

I'm trying to say that those combos are really hard when somebody tells me they are easy? I've been proven wrong about the damage thing, which is fine but now you're reading things into my posts that aren't there.
 
dont care about damage at all

pushblocking the cr mk still leaves the cr hp in range, im pretty sure

if you push block the end of the cr hp, you just cancel it into silver chord (unsafe but never punished) or drag n bite to continue pressuring them
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
dont care about damage at all

pushblocking the cr mk still leaves the cr hp in range, im pretty sure

if you push block the end of the cr hp, you just cancel it into silver chord (unsafe but never punished) or drag n bite to continue pressuring them

Silver Cord and Drag n Bite are both unsafe on block, and once people start learning the matchups better you'll see that those aren't good options. Your best bet if your opponent pushblocks you is to stancel back to neutral.

In the cases where your opponent is too far away after drag n' bite to punish (rare but possible against some characters) you are still at -7 or -8 on block which means there's still no way for you to continue pressure without spending meter.

The only time you're in range to still hit them with cr.HP after a pushblocked cr.MK is at point-blank range which is pretty worthless for opening up people during neutral as a poke.
 
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Squigly's problem isn't once she's in, it's *getting there*.

Squigly is very similar to Bella - High damage + good resets + toptier assists;
But with issues in the neutral game due to her options either being gimmicky (center xx opera) or questionable at best

She has problems with manoeuvring around Pea/Para zoning and problems against everyone once touched, as she got worse defensive options than even Painwheel/Valentine.

Squigly ain't a shittier unplayable worthless character that makes you autolose, but if you were to make a matchup chart for her, she'd end up being pretty low.
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
solo tier list =

fortune best by a lot
valentine second best
Filia third
squig 4
bella 5
parasoul
painwheel
double
peacock
lol
 
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NY_Jailhouse said:
dont care about damage at all

pushblocking the cr mk still leaves the cr hp in range, im pretty sure

if you push block the end of the cr hp, you just cancel it into silver chord (unsafe but never punished) or drag n bite to continue pressuring them

You can PBGC the c.MK into a jump and then punish squigly for even trying to input c.HP.

Doing silver chord on a pushblocked c.HP sounds like a horrible idea against any character with decent ground mobility.

Even if your idea did work, how do you even get into position to make the opponent block a c.MK.
 
winnie said:
Im surprised you guys are still debating the tier list. The game hasn't even come out on all systems yet so I think we should just drop the subject for now and wait till a later date when we can actually put Squigly on a tier list. I tried to move the subject on to match ups a while back and Im going to try again. So the is one character who's match ups i would really like to know. This character is Ms. Fortune the one character I know almost nothing about now.

Any one want to help me out and shed some knowledge about Fortune's match ups?

I gotcha, homie. http://skullgirls.com/forums/index....n-thread-the-revengeance.257/page-2#post-4007
Aside from Bella, I don't think Fortune's matchups really sway heavily one way or another. The head is definitely very dangerous but can be dealt with if the opponent knows what to look for (it really does make life harder for Bella, Parasoul, and Peacock, though).
 
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Squigly Matchups - IMHO

Filia 4/6
Squigly's tools cover most of the space where Filia is trying to approach and at mid range she's one of the few characters that has 'some' trouble getting through SBO with Gregor but Filia only really needs to force Squigly to block one jump-in and things start to look really bad. She also has an air-super which means you can't use anti-air daisy pusher against her.

Fortune 4/6
More or less the same as against Filia. Its a bit easier to zone her out but also easier for Fortune to blow though SBO with her supers. The head isn't too scary since both cr.lk and cr.HK hit on both sides of Squigly's body.

Valentine 4/6
Scalpels pretty much mean you can't use SBO, ever, outside of a combo, and Zipline means you can't abuse j.HP too much. The only thing stopping this match from being 3/7 is Valentine's lack of defensive options if Squigly can manage to get in.

Painwheel 6/4
j.HP pretty much covers the entire airspace and is 3 hits so she can't armor though it and PW doesn't have good defensive tools once Squigly gets in. That said, if PW gets the first hit she can take the match pretty quickly. With some careful, solid, play Squigly will win this though.

Cerebella 6/4
Bella is more or less forced to approach on the ground, which is great it gives you some space to do crossup divekicks and such and bella's armor moves aren't too effective against all of Squigly's multi-hit normals. Also, daisy pusher tends to beat bella's jump-ins and she has no air-super to mash on reaction, it even sometimes works as a reversal on the ground in this matchup since it can beat a reaction Dynamo (depending on the distance).

Peacock 4/6
j.HP can squeeze though a few of the openings in Peacock's wall of crap and level 2 sing really messes with her if you can manage to charge up, overall though its hard to get a charge in the first place and Peacock can simply move around the screen much faster then Squigly can, which makes it impossible to catch her outside the corner in most situations. Her slow horizontal movement means she's pretty free to item-drop as well. Thankfully Peacock's one reversal option doesn't cover Squigly's main jump-in angle at all and mashing out Daisy Pusher beats Argus on block and gets Squigly a full combo, which means Peacock can't push her out for free.

Parasoul 3/7
There's almost no openings for Squigly to get a stance charge in this matchup, napalm shots cover all of Squigly's approach angles except straight down with a high angle divekick... which easily loses to pillar > bikes. Parasoul's j.HP and air-throw beat all of Squigly's air-options cleanly. Plus you can't ever use SBO while Parasoul is on the ground due to Sniper Shot.

Double 5/5
Luger > Car keeps Squigly from abusing her j.HP too much and prevents her from using SBO or Daisy Pusher while Double is on the floor but anti-air Daisy Pusher or SBO still works, so Double's offensive gameplan isn't all that scary without cat-heads activated. Double is really tall which means less frame-advantage on blocked divekicks but it also means that j.HP hits Double in the face when she's not crouching. Overall I'd say its fairly even.
 
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How I fight squigly with bella

Do whatever I want, DP her J.HP for max coolness, hard tag when she does daisy pusher.
 
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