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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

I feel like Cerebella definitely beats squigly. Also Peacock is way harder than just 4-6.
 
dekillsage said:
How I fight squigly with bella

Do whatever I want, DP her J.HP for max coolness, hard tag when she does daisy pusher.

If you are able to tag you could have just jumped.

My point was, it makes Daisy Pusher a bit more legit in that matchup compared to other ones where Daisy Pusher loses to a mashed super or DP even if you caught them pressing a button with it.
 
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He runs Double after Cerebella so hard tagging into her leads into a combo anyway.
 
Sigh lol yeah immediately push block guard cancel my c mk on reaction, risk punishing my dnb and getting opera punished

All she needs to get in is the proper assists/being dhced into properly. Where are yaya and retro station to help me defend this character
 
I can hard tag in the middle of a normal. The only time I'm stuck is if you do center stage and cancel it into daisy pusher because center stage has hitstop, or if I commit to a special move/move in the air.

I don't know how squigly is forcing me to approach on the ground when her moves have no range or lose to my normals in the air. J.HP is a terrible move, and it doesn't do anything vs bella. Dive kick pressure became poor the second mike made the medium version not hit overhead. Considering how my super now beats that type of pressure anyways, its not a great look. Squigly by herself, doesn't really have what it takes to force bella into a situation where I have to deal with pressure. At the cost of a meter she can try, but its not great. I can see it being good with cerecopter, but only cerecopter. Just my opinion though.

Edit: Parasouls tearshot is also a really good assist for squigly.
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
Random? Not particularly


asking because it has to do with her development in matchups and shizz like that.

like everyone always says "oh she she sucks till she gets in" which to me is bella syndrome, where we are in a game with DHCs.

Like its silly to say "oh parasoul/squiggly is 7-3 because she can't get in" in a game with DHCs where you can skip that step (Squiggly, by the by, has some really great pressure options against parasoul since she has to hold down for a reversal)

so i was asking if it was safe on block as a free in, but even if its a hit scenario that changes the dynamic of her matchups, which people are ignoring
 
what i meant was that if you do it randomly, its not particularly safe. if you space it right off the proper dhc it can be safe
 
sounds like a decent option for evening out some of her apparent problems, imo
 
dekillsage said:
I can hard tag in the middle of a normal.

That's true in any matchup. Its not specific to Squigy. Its like saying that Filia can DP in the middle of a blockstring. Of course she can, its also risky.

Dive kick pressure became poor the second mike made the medium version not hit overhead.

Well that's what happens when everybody whines how Overpowered she is before anybody has learned the matchup.

is dhcing into opera safe?

If it forms a true blockstring with the super your DHCing from, and the spacing is right then DHC into Opera is +50ish on block but its not hard to pushblock or PBGC so she doesn't get much pressure from it unless your opponent is in the corner.
 
you get position it sounds like, similar to cat heads, and that's pretty good for squiggly.
 
GirlyStyle said:
you get position it sounds like, similar to cat heads, and that's pretty good for squiggly.

Oh don't get me wrong, its useful but its no Hatred Install or Cat Heads.

Install gets you right on top of them (plus the install buff) and Cat Heads gets you some easy mixups.

SBO usually leaves you at about pushblock distance with frame-advantage. She can't really mixup off of it.

Typically my perfered way to DHC into Squigly is to use a super where DHCing into SBO will leave them bouncing off of the Note. That way you get your choice of continuing the combo (if you've got undizzy left) or charging a stance (which is really damn important to Squigly's pressure and meterless damage).
 
mmm no its different for squigly because if she does daisy pusher as I'm doing a normal... I can hard tag lol. Idk who else you'd do that too.
 
oh yeah for sure, not as good as either of those, but it is a tool to help her get past her initial spacing problems and put her where she is most useful, so I think that evens some matches (especially since she is so good as an assist utility, that I can't think of a good reason why she should be point)
 
dekillsage said:
mmm no its different for squigly because if she does daisy pusher as I'm doing a normal... I can hard tag lol. Idk who else you'd do that too.

Pretty much any super that doesn't have enough hitstop to prevent you from doing something would work that way, although its not always useful.
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
Sigh lol yeah immediately push block guard cancel my c mk on reaction, risk punishing my dnb and getting opera punished

All she needs to get in is the proper assists/being dhced into properly. Where are yaya and retro station to help me defend this character

I'm willing to bet money that yaya will reiterate anything I've mentioned.
 
I can personally attest to Fortune shutting down the shit out of Bella, it's been 7-3 since the OG version.

Bella honestly isn't very afraid of Squigly, or at least has no real need to be.

Bella vs Cock is pretty 5-5, for reasons anyone should be able to guess.

Bella vs. PW has gotten A LOT better since SDE, since it was WAAYYY in Bella's favor(to the point I had to throw Skyking J a bone and show him that he could Hatred cancel into Air super), almost to the point of me actually being shocked if a PW outright beat a Bella. Still in Bella's favor.

Bella Vs. Para is slightly in Para's favour, she's shut down from going Napalm Shot crazy, but she does still have toss, bike and J. LP

Bella Vs. Val is hahahahahaha Val eats shit, pretty much everything Val does without an assist is a risk for her against Bella, it's not impossible, but Val can't get cheeky, and cheeky shit is where she shines.

Filia, I'd say it's barely in her favor, silly gregors get punished by grabs, and Filia can't really outright beat Bella in the air, and approaching Bella while Airborne isn't exactly the safest option for her.

Vs Double is a funky matchup, shot can get reflected but eh, because of Double jump, it's a little funky to anti air her, but I'd say it's in favor or Bella.
 
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Man you guys need to make a write up on how bella fights painwheel. I'd really appreciate it ;_;
 
dekillsage said:
Man you guys need to make a write up on how bella fights painwheel. I'd really appreciate it ;_;
This is from my many experiences with Skyking.

Let her hang herself.

I admittedly haven't played too much of "whatever the hell we call the new version" PW.

But you pretty much let her hang herself.

She's GONNA come at you from the sky, so you just Devil Horns.

Never try to anticipate it, smarter PWs will just air button>fly cancel>get out of there.

Jump back strong is really really good and it's hard for PW to get an air super from the whiff of it.

Her defense leaves much to be desired, and even when DH fails you STILL have Excelebella and DD.

It's a very unfun matchup for PW.

From what it looks like, New Version Painwheel has a few new tricks with Hatred Guard and her level 3 now being level 1, allowing "shoot fireballs then come in on bella" a more viable tactic.

It's a little sad too, because if DH worked more like a SRK there would be ways for PW to avoid it, but BECAUSE of it's funky angle, she just gets popped in the mouth.
 
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RemiKz said:
This one is universal. This was before the few damage nerfs she got, but coupled with an assist, you can still net about 10k damage. There are even more damaging midscreen stuff on lightweights.

Age of fools made this combo you linked right? Thank you AOF!!!!
 
I'm confused, are we talking strictly 1v1 matchups now?

Bella vs Cock/Double or Cock/anything I would not call 5-5
Bella vs Val "everything Val does without an assist is a risk for her" .. but but why would she do anything without an assist?

P.S. "The matchup is in Bella favor because PW players are stupid and don't know their tech and are going to hang themselves" .. matchups don't work that way :(
 
I WAS talking strictly 1-1 in the above posts.

If we're gonna add an assist on the opponents side, I would always give Bella an assist, as well.

Nah, Pw just has a hard time vs. an attentive Bella, 1-1.
 
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I unno. From my experience with painwheels they never have to commit to doing anything and usually have hornet bomber. I crai

Solo Peacock vs Bella might even be.. pretty good for bella. Peacock/LNL or Hornet Bomber is like 7-3 level of difficulty
 
The thing about painwheel is she has to sort of commit to flying. If she is ever above me while flying, I almost never hesitate to just super. Sure she can absorb the hit with j.HP and go into her own air super, but they would have had to start doing it beforehand.
 
But that implies that I'm close enough to do super. When she has hornet bomber she gets to hang back, and call it when I move forward.

If I'm that close I've already done my job and I'm ready to go ham. Its before that point that's hard.
I need to record matches vs domo or negus so you guys can tell me what to do ;_;
 
Well I also use peacock with updo so I hardly ever get to the point where I need to use cerebella on her lol.
 
dekillsage said:
But that implies that I'm close enough to do super. When she has hornet bomber she gets to hang back, and call it when I move forward.

If I'm that close I've already done my job and I'm ready to go ham. Its before that point that's hard.
I need to record matches vs domo or negus so you guys can tell me what to do ;_;


I've watched your Bella and it looks A LOT like ages. I would know because age is my primary playing partner (or was before evo) the primary ways age beats my painwheel...many/some of these are age specific so take that with a grain of salt:

J.mp to beat everything.
J.hp to beat everything else (use different versions of instant j.hp ie neutral or jump forward or jump backward.
J.lk to really be a dick and beat everything...
Empty jump A LOT, and make sure its a dash empty jump... I don't think age really uses regular jumps... It's always a dash jump... Actually he does use regular jumps... When he's trying to outprioritize something air to air.
After blocking a lockdown assist like lk bomber, churn that butter since painwheel has a high probability of going for an instant high or a low or a throw... Timed right, uss will beat all these options.

When playing assist wars (both players are empty jumping around a lot and calling assists, looking for the easy confirm) remember that Bella's cr.lk is way better than painwheels cr.lk so that if ever both assists are called and get blocked or hit each other, the resultant "staredown" situation where both players want to get out there cr.lks as fats as possible to beat each other... Bella almost always wins. Which gives Bella a big advantage in the meta since pw wants to avoid this situation cause Bella might start to read PW's hesitance to press a button, and just command throw pw.

Anywho that's versus my old strat of how to play pw... Which is to try and not play her Ike a botch and try to actually use the character... Which doesn't work that well since Bella beats painwheel in priority in almost all situations.


So.... On to negus strat:

Basically run away and try to engineer a dash jump j.mp. Bella has a hard time (as you no doubt know) out prioritizing this... And i copied it and started to use it against age with VERY GOOD results... By very good I mean I wasn't dying so quickly and was even getting some combos off consistently.... Age even said my footsies had gotten remarkably better... Funny cause all I was doing was running away more...

Anywho, point being that the way age now handles this is to pick filia updo assist and just try his best to out guess me on my actual attempts to get in. If I press dash j.mp and he empty jumped and called assist.... I lose and get combod while my j.mp is being airblocked unless I armor through as a chain on reaction... Not easy.

So basically what he's trying to do is anticipate the spacing of my j.mp and empty jump into it on purpose to open me up to his updo call. And if I get hesitant to attack he tries to read that and dash jump to me at which point if Bella gets in, her command grabs and broken cr.lk make quick work of pw, especially with Bella's corner carry damage into filia dhc into stupid combos...


I'd go I to the way I try and deal with that stuff..
But I've already typed way to much... And probably done a terrible job of trying to explain things.
Also, negus pw is currently better than mine, as is domos so, yeah they are going to have an easier time with the matchup just cause of any skill difference.
 
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"Anywho, point being that the way age now handles this is to pick filia updo assist"
Nooooooooooooooooo ;__;
haha j/k. Thanks for the advice guys!
 
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PW vs Bella:

The MU is my least favorite. Bella seems half designed to counter PW.

You have a lot of air options even on the ground, use them.

From there you just swat PW until you can confirm into huge damage.

PW has to play pretty predictably and reactionary to you as Bella has priority in most situations.
 
dekillsage said:
"Anywho, point being that the way age now handles this is to pick filia updo assist"
Nooooooooooooooooo ;__;
haha j/k. Thanks for the advice guys!
Isn't that how everyone handles it?

I look at top tier MU and Pillar, Hornet, or UpDo have almost 100% representation.

"Choose your assist" my ass...
 
dekillsage said:
"Anywho, point being that the way age now handles this is to pick filia updo assist"
Nooooooooooooooooo ;__;
haha j/k. Thanks for the advice guys!

I'm sure he could handle it differently if had a different assist, it's just that he switched his duo team from Bella/double in pre patch and sde to Bella/filia about a month or so before evo.

I hadn't been exposed to negus strat yet so I was still taking losses pretty much the same against that new team. Once I had xcopied the defensive strat is when all this stuff started happening and went down.

Age at one point in time said that he didn't like using updo cause it was so defensive and forced him to play much more lame than with bomber. However i played him once in sde after I came back from evo and he was basically 2 touching my painwheel/double duo team. Any hit from either Bella or filia was auto tod against the first character with no reset, and against the second character it was 1 reset to kill... So our games tended to go something like:

Get hit by updo assist or cr.lk, get killed tod, no reset. Filia is in because of dhc and of course corner cause its filia.

Incoming character mixup with copter as the assist, survivethe triple mixup maybe/maybe not. If get hit, get reset once and then killed outright.


Next game....

Lol... So yeah. It's a good setup. It isn't as potent on PC, cause it tends to need a reset to kill the first character... But other than that the setup is very good if you can get in.
 
Now we really playing Skullgirls
 
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dekillsage said:
But that implies that I'm close enough to do super. When she has hornet bomber she gets to hang back, and call it when I move forward.

If I'm that close I've already done my job and I'm ready to go ham. Its before that point that's hard.
I need to record matches vs domo or negus so you guys can tell me what to do ;_;

When Painwheel decides to hang back, there's not much you can really do but bide your time and walk her to the corner. That said, if they run hornet bomber, you're going to be able to punish whiffed assist calls a lot harder than they are while they're at super jump height. Learn the c.mk lp uncombo infinite (I think it still works) and they have to come in or sacrifice the assist 100%. You can get punished if you're not careful, but if you're looking for opportunities to be in super range, destroying their assist is definately one way.

I've started using excellabella a hell of a lot more than I did in SDE now that you can connect dynamo midscreen. I wish you could still dash up c.lk after the dynamo but oh well. The range on that thing is ridiculous, and it's pretty tough for painwheel to punish it without having been in grab range, so once you confirm she's flying, throw it out (avoiding the assist calls obviously).

If it makes you feel any better, I'm trying to get back into Bella/Double. My Filia's getting pretty stale.

@Dime_x
I'm a little late to the discussion about Peacock (about 5 pages late). I think you concentrate too much on finding a single strong 'flowchart'. Peacock is almost as adaptable as Parasoul, but with a heavier focus on the zoning side. She still has the best full screen game with HP, hp item drops, georges and garbage day. She can transition from zoning to rushdown with any assist call into teleport, or a blocked 2nd stage item drop into high/low/throw, and her close range defensive game is a lot better than it was in SDE. The main weakness is when she charges the wrong item drop, for example if the opponent gets into mid range while she was charging the hp version.

She also has some unique utility, since she can set up crossups in the corner with her item drop, has high-mid tier assists, a safe dhc and a full screen dhc.

@everyone else

Fortune and Valentine have comparably strong point games to Filia, but they don't compare when it comes to team utility. Filia has top tier assists, and mid tier dhcs (Fortune and Val don't have safe dhcs anyway). You might say that Fortune/Val are rarely in a position other than on point, but this means that they are susceptible to a) snapbacks and b) less-favorable matchups since with Filia, even if you switch away from an unfavorable matchup you still have a top tier assist.

here's an attempt at a point vs team utility tier chart http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/sku... team utility-x310-d4Strong team utility-x410
 
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Can somebody tell me why people think Filia is good? What does she have in MDE that makes her better than the other characters?
 
She is one of the few characters that can play any position has some of the best mix ups in the game and can generally overwhelm an opponent easily. She has very few flaws and one of the best assists in the game. There is just nothing wrong with Filia that would make people call her bad but because I play Filia not everyone will probably agree with me since Im a bit bias.
 
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winnie said:
She is one of the few characters that can play any position has some of the best mix ups in the game and can generally overwhelm an opponent easily. She has very few flaws can one of the best assists in the game. There is just nothing wrong with Filia that would make people call her bad but because I play Filia not everyone will probably agree with me since Im a bit bias.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm sure she might have good mixups in a vacuum and Updo is good in a vacuum, but what makes her superior to other characters?

For example, Updo is pretty good until you compare it to literally any other AAA in the game. It's -60 on block, got a damage nerf recently, and is the hardest after which to combo on point.

What about those mixups? What is it about a character who can't throw midscreen without meter, can't cancel into overhead, can't do vacuum bullshit, and has the absolute worst hitboxes in the game that makes her better than other characters that have all of those things and more?

The most common statements I've heard are "she's just good!" without any data (and especially without comparing her to other characters in the game) or good players winning with her by virtue of them already being good players. That's like saying, "Kuroda wins with Q all the time. Q can't be THAT bad!"
 
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