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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

IsaVulpes said:
There is no startup on dashes, I dunno what you're on.
Actually, I think Peacock actually does have a little start up on her dash but that's just her. I'm pretty sure no one else with an airdash has start-up on theirs.
 
Peacock's airdash takes time to build the necessary momentum to move forward. You're still already dashing there, and can cancel it into a normal.
You can cancel the airdash on the very frame you start it.
I'm actually not sure whether this adds 0 or 1f to the total frame count for the fastest possible IAD j.LK, but in either case it's faster than Parasoul's 6LP.
 
Broken Loose said:
I asked it before, and I got blown off: How is iad anything faster than Parasoul f+LP?

You might be shocked to find out that jump startup + minimum airdash height + airdash startup is greater than 13 frames.


When counting speed, i wouldnt list jump startup... No one can see jump frames when the game is running at full speed so its stupid to list them as a part of iad speed. Filias instant overhead j.lk is for all intents and purposes, 12 frames... And its ALWAYS 12 frames cause of the iad buffer that always allows for airdashes at the minimum height. Her iad j.hp is effectively 15 frames. And finally, her iad are all a fair bit off the ground making them completely immune to most low attacks, which are the general starters in sg.

So her primary attack and mixup option BEATS other characters primary grounded option of cr.lk, and it also beats the grounded option of throw.


Parasouls f+lp is grounded the entire time making it very susceptible to throws and low pokes as well as low jabs etc etc when it is thrown out at bad times. Which means that parasoul, in order to be able to do her overhead even somewhat safely needs to do it from an advantaged position... During a lockdown or during a reset and... Rarely, as a read against a defensive opponent not locked down or already being hit.


Also... Filias overheads have ALOT more range than parasouls overheads


So filias overheads are:

Faster
Have more priority cause they are off the ground
Are way more varied with attacks
Have way more range
Do more damage on average
Are extremely good against pushblock cause of filias forward momentum
And are way more variable than parasouls cause filia can go bonkers with overheads like j.hp,j.hk airdash j.hp,j.hk for a quadruple overhead that she can go low from at any time
Filias overheads also have a tendency to crossup... And parasouls NEVER do.

The only thing that parasouls overheads have that filias dont is that they can be canceled into from a chain, and they dont leave the ground so they are a lot less telegraphed.

That it though, everything else is better for filia.
 
Oh I've been meaning to ask.
How do I pushblock feelia? I try pushblocking her j.hp at different times but she just gets in my face again and swings her luscious hair knives at me. Am I supposed to pushblock and then try to preemptively beat it? Or can I actually push block it properly and I just don't know how.
 
Pushblocking Filia is strange its almost impossible to push her away in one pushblock but eventually you will push her out of range if you keep it up. Its easier to stuff Filia's air movement than to guard against it IMHO. This is where any invincible assist comes into play.
 
I must use Filia I mean updo to beat Filia!

I crai.

Anyways yeah chances are I'm just going to spend a bar to beat it. I just need to stop getting hit while holding down when trying to super on "reaction" (aka to any kind of movement lel)
 
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dekillsage said:
Oh I've been meaning to ask.
How do I pushblock feelia? I try pushblocking her j.hp at different times but she just gets in my face again and swings her luscious hair knives at me. Am I supposed to pushblock and then try to preemptively beat it? Or can I actually push block it properly and I just don't know how.



It totally depends on spacing and what move/chain she did...and ... Lag unfortunately.

If she does iad j.hp airdash j.hk and you pushblock the j.hp... You can punish her as she lands... But its totally hard and the ranges screw shit up... Sometimes she will be in range, other times she wont. Mostly in lag that string is a free way for her get close and put crouch attacks in your stuff.

If she spams iad j.hp... Its just pushblock the j.hp and then if you can, jump forward and block while calling a dp type assist. ... Easier said than done.

If you try to pushblock her j.hp p but it was instead a i ad j.mp... Your pushblock will be early and will be ineffective and she will get free pressure.

The correct way to pushblock her is:

At the end of her cr.mk string, though her st.hk will generally tend to move her back in, and if not then her hairball after that will.

If she does iad j.hp spam then pushblock the j.hp then guess the next one and reversal it if you were on the ground, if you were in the air, then a j.lp or j.lk can work as you are descending after recovering from the pushblock

If she iad j.mp... You have to pushblock the last hit of j.mp which varies depending on range... A really cheap ass move, only pushblock the first hit if you have them leet skills and want to try and pbgc her as she lands.

Basically you want to pushblock the last hit of her multihits and that goes for her chains as well.... So if she does iad j.hp, airdash j.hk... Then you want to pushblock the j.hk especially since she needs more time to recover from j.hk since it lands slower than j.hp... Which gives you much more time to defend or create space... Iirc


Also... The general pushblock theory is as goes:


If you want to pbgc... Pushblock early. The reason is simple: if you actually pushblock someone away from you and then pbgc.... They might have time to block. But if you make sure to pushblock early then they wont since they dont get pushed back at all.


And it goes for pushblocking as well.. If you want to push the opponent away, pushblock the last hit of there multihit normal or a hit of a chain where the next hit doesnt advance.

If you pushblock the attack directly preceding an advancing normal... Chances are high that they will just move towards you after you have pushed them out, negating much of the pushblocks power.


All of this shit is much easier said than done, though in sg the most common thread is to pushblock either the second or third attack in a chain, which is what makes filia and... Parasoul so hard to pushblock in general:

Filia uses cr.lk,and then cr.mk... Commonly people would push the cr.mk early since it works so well against other characters... But since its a multihit, it doesnt work well against filia.


With parasoul the same thing happens as well as something slightly different:

The second hit of parasouls ground chain is usually a cr.mk... Which is all good... BUT it directly proceeded by a normal that moves parasoul forward (st.hp) which is also itself proceeded by a normal that moves forward... The effect is:

You pushblock the cr.mk and move her back, but she then advances on you with her advancing st.hp string killing your pushblock.

Etc etc etc

This in no way means im particularly great at pushblocking correctly... That shit is hard.
 
Sage just use lk hornet bomber for the Filia match up. I don't know about other players but lk bomber is a bitch to Filia's air game.

Edit: HER THIGHS ARE TO BIG ^__^
 
Dime_x said:
snip
Okay, first you're moving the goalposts (we won't count jump startup because of reasons) and then you're adding in extra qualifiers (you can throw Parasoul out of her overhead so it doesn't count). It looks really disingenuous when, in order to make a point about Filia having the fastest overhead, you subtract jump frames because "nobody ever sees them anyway," the actual move startup, and the actual dash. Filia j.LK has 7f startup. Supposing prejump never existed, supposing dashes are 0f, and supposing that pushboxes don't exist, that still means iad j.LK is 19 frames. However, since the hitbox of the move requires forward momentum (crouching opponents are actually too low to be hit by j.LK if Filia isn't physically existing on top of them) the move is incredibly reactable.

I'm not even going to touch on things like how j.LK will supposedly counter pushblock, because (A) it won't and (B) it's a goddamn chain starter. What, is your opponent pushblocking Parasoul's XLP, her Extremely Light Punch that chains into her light attacks? Is your opponent pushblocking Double in such a way that pushes your point character back? My mind boggles at some of the claims you're making.

It's also quite telling that people like Winnie are the ones making realistic claims but the ones who don't understand Filia are saying, "She's got 80 billion invincible mixups anywhere that lead to instant death! Aaargh!"
 
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Can someone tell me the frames for j.hk because I always though Filia's fastest overhead was instant j.hk not IAD j.lk > whatever. I don't think this overhead is faster than Parasoul's and its best used in the corner but I was under the impression that j.hk was Filia's fastest overhead. Please correct me if Im wrong.
 
winnie said:
Can someone tell me the frames for j.hk because I always though Filia's fastest overhead was instant j.hk not IAD j.lk > whatever. I don't think this overhead is faster than Parasoul's and its best used in the corner but I was under the impression that j.hk was Filia's fastest overhead. Please correct me if Im wrong.
I'm inclined to agree with you, and it's 13f post-jump. 9HK works more reliably than 8HK outside of the corner, but adds a little more jump startup obviously.

Notable: 9HK 2LK actually combos.



edit:
Dime_x said:
When counting speed, i wouldnt list jump startup... No one can see jump frames when the game is running at full speed so its stupid to list them as a part of iad speed. Filias instant overhead j.lk is for all intents and purposes, 12 frames... And its ALWAYS 12 frames cause of the iad buffer that always allows for airdashes at the minimum height. Her iad j.hp is effectively 15 frames. And finally, her iad are all a fair bit off the ground making them completely immune to most low attacks, which are the general starters in sg.

So her primary attack and mixup option BEATS other characters primary grounded option of cr.lk, and it also beats the grounded option of throw.

I want to restate this.

"When counting speed, I wouldn't list stance startup... No one can see stance frames with the game is running at full speed so it's stupid to list them as part of draugen punch speed. Squigly's draugen punch is for all intents and purposes 1 frame... and it's ALWAYS 1 frame because of the special cancel buffer that always allows for Cable scimitar on reaction. Her Seria DP is effectively 0 frames. And finally, her dps are all completely invincible through active frames and lead to full combo on hit with or without meter.

So her anti-air special BEATS everything in the game."

Stance startup is shorter than iad startup.
 
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Age said:
In terms of tools;

-best instant overhead
-best or second best iad overhead (fortune's j.lk might be faster in some situations?)

Broken Loose said:
  1. The best instant overhead is Parasoul b+LP. Or Painwheel flycancel anything. Or Fortune grounded Axe Kick. You see, it's a lot harder to react to an overhead when the opponent doesn't have to jump.
  2. I'd love to know which iad overhead of hers you think is great
I don't look at frame data, but I didn't claim anything about how fast Filia's overheads were. (people later did, so if they have proof that'd be cool to see).

Parasoul's f+lp is a standing overhead, it's not an instant overhead nor an IAD overhead. Why are we even comparing them? If you must compare them, think about how useful f+lp is in neutral? A slow low priority low damage short range normal. It's basically only useful for situations where the opponent is already locked down. Compare that to Filia's instant overhead j.hk; a fast, high damage, short range normal that's also only useful for lockdown situations and leads into further lockdown on block. What about her IAD overheads? A slow ( fast to me, but for the sake of argument we'll say it's similar speed to f+lp) low priority long range normal useful for neutral situations at mid range that leads to lockdown on block.
 
Broken Loose said:
Filia j.LK has 7f startup. Supposing prejump never existed, supposing dashes are 0f, and supposing that pushboxes don't exist, that still means iad j.LK is 19 frames.
I have zero idea where you have your numbers from
Is there a reason you completely ignored my post
 
@Broken Loose

No goal posts are being moved. You simply came in with an inane argument that doesnt mean anything as far as the game goes:

1. IF you are actually talking about speed of overheads, then you are talking about their reactability, or their priority. That is the only reason to mention speed outside of something like... Combos.

So since you are, I'm assuming, mentioning them because of reactability, you CANT be actually listing prejump frames as a seeable and therefore reactable part of her overhead... Can you? Cause that just seems really wonky. No one is fast enough to see prejump frames.
2. If you are mentioning parasouls overhead speed in reference to PRIORITY.... That still doesnt make sense since parasouls overhead has like 1 priority on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being high and 1 being low...

So, basically, you make no sense... Or your argument makes no sense. I cant figure it out.

Also, how does an iad j.lk with an iad startup of 5 frames and a move startup of 7 frames = 19?

The math adds up to 12. And it adds up to fourteen if we suppose that a 5 frame iad startup actuly starts on the 6th frame and the proceeding move goes active on the 8th frame.


Anyway it goes, unless you or someone else can see jump startup, it shouldn't be added into speed of a move when concerning reactions, because it doesnt affect reactions. It could be listed for priority, but as i said that makes little sense in the conversation that you started.

I never said anything about j.lk being i pushblockable so... I'll just assume you are referring to someone else.


Seriously, if you want to list prejump frames of filias iad... Then You also have to list dash up/jumpin/call assist and wait for it to go active frames when concerning parasouls overheads since she doesnt just appear next to her opponent. Because filias iad attacks all have waaaay more range than parasouls overhead.

This entire argument is just you cherry picking the strengths of one move and the weaknesses of another and trying to base a cohesive argument off of it.
But you cant do that, you cant just say.... Speed, or range, or comboability, or priority.

Yet you do, and the funny thing is that even when just looking at speed filia still comes out obviously on top.
 
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My advice for Filia's grounded strings, don't pushblock them at all.

cr.MK is -7 on block, which means most characters can punish it with a super, or if you have a 6 frame normal that can hit Filia's crouching hitbox you can do that.
s.HP is -4, which means you get a free mixup but she'll recover in time to attempt to block. (In a Filia Mirror, you can punish s.HP with Fenrir Drive)
cr.HP, cr.HK, s.HK, Hairball and Ringlet Spike are all even more unsafe then the above options (Ringlet Spike doesn't even form a blockstring most of the time).

Of course you do have to worry about her trying to catch you with a Frame Trap by doing a Late Updo or Gregor but I think its preferable to pushblocking her, which will put her right back at IAD range.

Then again, if Filia players start being smart and ending their blockstrings with s.MP (which is +8 on block) then you'll have to pushblock that.
 
You can't really end blockstrings with s.MP
Filia is going to call an assist during c.MK and you're borked
Assistless Filia has a string that's -1 on Block
 
My usual block sting is c.lk > c.mk > call assist but if I can't call and assist I chain into s.hp and then block afterwards but most people push block the last hit of c.mk so I don't have much experience with people who don't push block. Basically as long as you have a safe bock sting your fine.

Oh and yeah instant jump hk combos into c.lk which is really stupid but ill take it.
 
IsaVulpes said:
You can't really end blockstrings with s.MP
Filia is going to call an assist during c.MK and you're borked
Assistless Filia has a string that's -1 on Block

Well if she's going to call an assist during cr.MK then it probably won't matter if you pushblock or not.
 
Im going to be the First person to come out and say it, Double is the best character is Skullgirls and she has been the best since day one.

I challenge you prove me wrong.
 
Double can go on any team in any position and has a safe DHC or high damage DHC into lvl 3 something Filia and Fortune don't have. Fortune is overrated and Filia requires a lock down assist to be affective. Double has an invincible lvl 1 super the best lock down super in the game a high damage lvl 3 and even a lvl 5. Double also has a brain dead easy neutral game and great mix ups, she also has a decent projectile when half the cast doesn't. My biggest point is that everyone uses her. Very few people use Val, Filia or Fortune. On the other had everyone uses Double.
 
Everyone uses her because she is a great ASSET to a team, not because she's the best character. Why do you think you always see her tacked on towards the end of a team and rarely, if ever, on point. Also, who the hell do you play that you are actually saying that FEW people use Val and Filia?
 
No safe dhc is true. But filia can combo off of a dhc with gregor, fortune can do the same off her super depending on where you are and if you have an otg. The damage output is pretty high for those 2 tbh.
Fortune and Filia also have invincible level 1 supers, and they can do them in the air.

Double suffers for being as big as she is, having to deal with instant overheadish type mix ups much more often than anyone else, and when up against people like bella she'll take a ridiculous amount of damage for being so big.

A lot of people play Feelia, but a lot of people also aren't good at this game. If our player base was bigger Filia/Double would probably be on the majority of peoples teams.

That being said, everything but doubles backdash is pretty much top tier char material. She adds a lot to the team, to every team, period. That's why I have her in my top 3, but she's not better than Filia as of now imo
 
Double isn't best character, but she has been and still is best support character. Best point character is between Filia and Fortune imo, while Double is best support hands down.
 
RemiKz said:
Everyone uses her because she is a great ASSET to a team, not because she's the best character. Why do you think you always see her tacked on towards the end of a team and rarely, if ever, on point. Also, who the hell do you play that you are actually saying that FEW people use Val and Filia?

You always see her in the back because the more meter you have the bette solo Double becomes but you can sill run her on point with the new command dash you can turn almost any assist into a cross up mix up. There are a lot of Filia and Val players but there are very few Filia and Val player who use there character too there full potential.

Im not arguing that Double is the best point character Im saying she is the best in the game overall.
 
dekillsage said:
I agree
Actually no I think Valentine is the best point character.

True, there is room for debate on that. I would leave best point among those three, though.

winnie said:
You always see her in the back because the more meter you have the bette solo Double becomes but you can sill run her on point with the new command dash you can turn almost any assist into a cross up mix up. There are a lot of Filia and Val players but there are very few Filia and Val player who use there character too there full potential.

Im not arguing that Double is the best point character Im saying she is the best in the game overall.

That's probably true for every character in the game, though.
 
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If you want to talk best point character that is Val hands down but just because she is the best Point doesn't mean she is the best character in the game.

Edit: there are more good Double players than any other Character in this game.

Also i would like to add that both Fortune and Filia can't blow 2 bars of meter and instantly control the neutral game like Double's cat heads
 
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Fortune has the head to help her control the neutral game
Filia is....
 
I think it's rather funny how we had Broken Loose state "The top players all only play Filia because of SDE" and now we got winnie going "The top players playing Double means she's #1"
 
Here are my thoughts on the Fortune match up and why I think Fortune is overrated. Fortune has only one angle of attack she has to be above you to have any kind of advantage over you in the neutral game. When her head is off you only need to devote a small amount of your attention towards it. Fortune's head only has 4 moves and only one of them leave the ground this means Fortune is on her own when it comes to air to air. If you want to beat Fortune you have to beat her in the air. Thats all there is to it.

Also I would like to make it clear that my definition of best character is the character that excels at everything. This is why I think Double is the best. If you made a tier list for all the different ways to play this game solo, duo, point, anchor, support, assist. Then Double would be top 4 or higher in every list making her average out as the best character overall.

I hope this helps you understand why I think the way I do.
 
You'd put double on your team for the same reason people put dr.doom on their teams in marvel 3. But they're not the best, they're just versatile.

Also fortunes cr.lk is the most ridiculous low I've had to deal with in this game so far so I wouldn't say she only has one angle of attack. I can see why you wouldn't have to worry about the head much being a Filia player who can maneuver around it.

Solo/Anchor
Filia has more mobility options and can pressure an opponent without meter once she makes them block.
Double's pressure is good, but more times than not she needs cat heads to push her offense.
In addition to that both have reversal supers they can use, but the difference is Filia can combo off hers which leads to resets and kills. Doubles is just damage. Also doubles flesh step becomes worse when she's solo, and its close to useless honestly. Only thing I think double has over filia is the fact she can combo off any throw without meter, but Filia's damage output outclasses double overall.

Duo/Support
Filia has updo assist, gregor dhc, and more offensive/mix up options to work with when backed by an assist
Double has flesh step mix ups, hornet bomber, dhc cat heads. I would say double adds more to the team in duo thanks to cat heads dhc.


TL;DR
Play Filia/Double
 
Dash in c.lk in something every character can do and its not a very strong tool for neutral game. Its not bad but I don't find it useful at neutral. As a reset, frame trap or pressure tool c.lk is a very good move but its laking as a poke.

As for solo/anchor Filia and Double I think of is this way. Solo Filia is better than solo Double but Anchor Double is stronger than anchor Filia. This is because anchor Double usually starts with 3-5 bars of meter allowing for the use of cat heads right of the bat but Filia doesn't have as good of a way to burn through 5 bars of meter like Double can.
 
In this current version, you can reversal super the opponent pressing forward with gregor. I do this as bella, but filia can actually combo off of it. Any confirm for that matter leads into a gregor. This includes ringlet, throw etc.
 
Val is the best character in the game. Filia comes just after her, filia and double are like opposite sides of the same coin. Filia is a great point and great second character who is SLIGTLY weaker at anchor than double.

Double is a great anchor and great second character who is much weaker than filia at point.

Double might now win the versus filia matchup 1v1 though. Lp shot kinda hampers filias iad game and any ground to air shot can be easily confirmed into car on hit.

Right now because of filias nerfs, and doubles buffs it might be val,double,filia on the strength charts. But it's really close any way it goes. And I agree with Winnie that fortune is overrated, I've always thought she was. But she's still damn good and imho it goes her then Bella,parasoul,painwheel tied, with squigs taking up last place.
 
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Yeah she sucks. It feels like updo doesn't work anymore. I call it out and it gets stuffed sometimes. I don't get it. Just the other day it missed someone who was within half the screen of me.
 
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