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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

mcpeanuts said:
Trick question, there are no good Peacocks.


Can confirm. I play Peacock, I am most fraudulent. King Fraud on shit mountain.
 
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Excuse me butting in. Maybe this isn't supposed to be a good strategy, but I always see Painwheels doing that multihit flight thingie, it has superarmor and goes straight through whatever normals I throw out including Squigly j. HP. She seems very difficult to air to air, or is there some simple solution I am unaware of?
 
blufang said:
Excuse me butting in. Maybe this isn't supposed to be a good strategy, but I always see Painwheels doing that multihit flight thingie, it has superarmor and goes straight through whatever normals I throw out including Squigly j. HP. She seems very difficult to air to air, or is there some simple solution I am unaware of?
There aren't any simple solutions. Painwheel's air options beat yours and she can cancel into buer or flight if shit hits the fan. Your only options are to bait with Draugen charged, cast SBO and rush in, or use an assist.
 
blufang said:
Excuse me butting in. Maybe this isn't supposed to be a good strategy, but I always see Painwheels doing that multihit flight thingie, it has superarmor and goes straight through whatever normals I throw out including Squigly j. HP. She seems very difficult to air to air, or is there some simple solution I am unaware of?


... Squiglys j.hp hits multiple times, painwheels j.hp has only 1 hit of armor. So just make sure that your j.hp is the multihit version and it should stop painwheels that like to charge her airnormal.
 
.... Are you aware of how armor works?

Squigly's j.HP has no armor and no disjointed hitbox. If it were to trade with a move that has armor, she'd be put into hitstun while the opponent wouldn't. j.HP could do 30 hits and end in a Harry Potter Movie Marathon and it would still lose to armored, invulnerable, or disjointed hitboxes just the same.
 
I have no frickin clue what you just said, Loose

What happens is this: PW charges j.HP
Squigly jumps and presses j.HP (anywhere other than max range)
First hit of Squigly's j.HP gets eaten by the armor, 2nd hit breaks it
PW dies
 
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Broken Loose said:
.... Are you aware of how armor works?

Squigly's j.HP has no armor and no disjointed hitbox. If it were to trade with a move that has armor, she'd be put into hitstun while the opponent wouldn't. j.HP could do 30 hits and end in a Harry Potter Movie Marathon and it would still lose to armored, invulnerable, or disjointed hitboxes just the same.


...sigh dude.

Just sigh.

Its not so bad that you have no clue what you are talking about, but the way you reference these things you have no clue over is disheartening. Like... You could at least be right if you are going to take that tone.


What you say generally applies to armor that is not of the pw variety. Painwheels armor attacks LOSE many properties, when compared to actual good armored moves like bellas battle toads, hulks st.hp in marvel and even sents st.hk in marvel.

Painwheels armor most closely resembles sf4 focus attacks, with the buff to some of them to armor up to 3 hits, meaning that they break at 4 hits... Pretty lengthy and good right? Well not so much when you remember that in sg, many characters have great safe on block multihits like filias airballs, vals j.mp,painwheels and doubles j.mp and j.hp respetively. As well as in sg its a lot easier to just jump over a character (painwheels armor doesnt hit behind her) plus, in sf4 focus attacking can be backdashed to relative safety... In sg however its less powerful to cancel into fly since one cant block in fly, and... Bla bla... Point being that its rather hard to use even when compared to sf4 focus attacks just cause these are 2 different games.

Now when we compare them to marvels badass armor like hulks st.hp:

Hulks doesnt require a charge so it starts up SUPER FAST for its range.
Has a HUGE hitbox.
Is very hard to jump over.
Has faster armor startup than most of painwheels hard attack armor.
Has armor deep into its active frames.

So there isnt really a point in making the comparison at all except to say that the moves are near completely different and damn near not even in the same ball park as far as relevance is concerned.

I only bring it up because you seem to think that painwheels armor moves work like hulks or sents or bellas which all share much more similar properties than they do with painwheels moves.

Painwheel armor got buffed in mde to have armor into first active frame of most/all moves.
But it still gives the opponent tons of time to throw in multiple attacks via multihits like hairball, because the startup is still horrendous on most attacks.

The best overall armor move pre mde was j.hp cause it had quick armor startup, 2hits of armor and most importantly was hard to jump over and had a good hitbox. In mde its uses have been mixed up because it got buffed to having armor into its first attack frame, but lost a hit of armor as well... The net effect being that there's now more time to hit her out of its armor with aerial chains and multihits, but its gotten significantly stronger on paper when used premptively as well as when used against anticipated 1hit jump attacks (which no one uses against pw... For good reasons)

And finally, to answer your question:

You would be right about squiglys j.hp against painwheels j.hp, if painwheel could just release j.hp early and still get full armor effects... But painwheel CANNOT do that for any of her armored moves. The instant she lets go of the button, she loses any armor benefits.




...so i hope that answers your question about whether i know how armor works... Perhaps its YOU that need to understand that like how every projectile doesnt work the same way, not all armor does either.

Perhaps.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
I have no frickin clue what you just said, Loose

What happens is this: PW charges j.HP
Squigly jumps and presses j.HP (anywhere other than max range)
First hit of Squigly's j.HP gets eaten by the armor, 2nd hit breaks it
PW dies
 
Dime, I think all of the dumb shit you say would disappear instantly if you actually played the fucking game.
 
Broken Loose said:
Dime, I think all of the dumb shit you say would disappear instantly if you actually played the fucking game.


Same to you buddy.

Btw that video you linked isnt showing armor absorbing squiglys j.hp.... Which is what vulpes and i already said would happen. I specifiically mention it in one of my above posts....

But if you cant understand the difference between an OUTSTRETCHED move already in its active frames and a move that is being charged for armor, not yet in its active frames... Well then i guess we know where all this fuss stems from... You still not having a clue or not having reading comprehension... 1 of the 2 either way...
 
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Broken Loose said:

I hate to say this... but you are using it like a jackass.

In the video you linked, every PW move will beat it. The charge is 100% superflous. Just use j.mp, j.hp, or j.hk. Her air normals are super strong... when they come out. Her priority is what is shit. If Squigs is hoping to j.hp spam... she needs to be in the air first. This is the threat to PW.

No Squigs anywhere, ever should j.hp on reaction to PW charge. Do the exact same thing but have Squigs in the air first before trying to charge j.hk. j.hp is strong against PW... possibly the only toon it is strong against, but that doesn't minimize how hard it is for a solo PW to overcome it.
 
Spencer said:
I hate to say this... but you are using it like a jackass.

In the video you linked, every PW move will beat it. The charge is 100% superflous. Just use j.mp, j.hp, or j.hk. Her air normals are super strong... when they come out. Her priority is what is shit.

That's my point, though. Squigly j.HP is a gigantic green hitbox that also happens to have some red in it, and it'll never beat another attack. It trades at best, and loses to any non-vulnerable hitbox. The amount of hits is irrelevant, the size is irrelevant, and the conversion possibility afterward is irrelevant. The move cannot counter-hit an opponent. It's a losing proposition, and suggesting Squigly be in the air before or more often than the flight character is kind of laughable.

Thus, I suggested ways for Squigly to get in, like the guy initially asked.
 
So to sum it up, if Painwheel is trying to charge her j.HP then she'll lose out to Squigly's j.HP because PW's armor doesn't carry over into active frames and she only has one hit of armor.
If Painwheel already has j.HP out and active then you get a trade because then Squigly is just throwing herself into hitbox. It's generally not a good idea to throw yourself into moves that are already active with any character (excluding invincible moves). So be smart as to when you throw out the j.HP with Squigles (read: do it before the opponent already has an active move out and don't miss so you don't get DP'd or whatever).
 
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@KhaosMuffins

Painwheels j.hp armor does go into the first active frame. But only if the move is fully charged. :)
 
Broken Loose said:
That's my point, though. Squigly j.HP is a gigantic green hitbox that also happens to have some red in it, and it'll never beat another attack. It trades at best, and loses to any non-vulnerable hitbox. The amount of hits is irrelevant, the size is irrelevant, and the conversion possibility afterward is irrelevant. The move cannot counter-hit an opponent. It's a losing proposition, and suggesting Squigly be in the air before or more often than the flight character is kind of laughable.

Thus, I suggested ways for Squigly to get in, like the guy initially asked.

It will beat any attack that does not overlap with its green hurtboxes, it will beat any attack that is still in startup when the j.hp is in active frames and overlapping the enemy.

Squigly can always get the height advantage against an airborn painwheel because squigly has a VERY high double jump.
Squigly can come down with her j.hp on top of painwheels head from almost fullscreen away.
The painwheel j.hp variant that you were using in your video would have all wiffed had squigly not stuck out j.hp excessively late.
The guy asked how to beat ARMORED j.hp and said that ARMORED j.hp was beating all his stuff. He never asked how to get in.
Squigly j.hp beating painwheels j.hp if its armored and trading if its if its stuck out early is footsies 101, ryu v sim wars... Pretty much the same thing that apply there apply here. Ryu can hit sims limbs if he uses the right attack at the right time, sim however does a lot of damage with his limbs and if ryu mistimes one of his pokes he takes full damage.

There are of course many ways to look at the matchup, the video that you linked though as spencer put it, is done at bad times, the pattern shown there can be used consistently in the matchup, but that is seriously some super metagame shit. Neither character should be going that far into there repertoires because neither character has the greatest of keepaway, the keepaway is just there to setup the get in by hopefully getting the opponent to overextend.
 
Broken Loose said:
Dime, I think all of the dumb shit you say would disappear instantly if you actually played the fucking game.
While it's true that Dime posts hilarious amounts of bullshit, are you sure you're the right person to criticize that?
I mean, if you actually played either Squigly or PW you'd notice that PW's j.HP does NOT beat Squigly's j.HP in any actual case which happens in matches unless PW is installed.

And then we got these:
Broken Loose said:
what WHAT WHAT
You bitching at Dime for a correct claim, me backing it up with FrameData, you disappearing from the thread afterwards
Broken Loose said:
neutral jump forward
I'm not going to start
Broken Loose said:
What? No. God no. Fuzzy Guard is about putting people into standing blockstun while they're trying to block low so you can hit them with overheads easier.
Where you don't understand a basic concept on how to set up a fuzzy after throw and bitch at View condescendingly, get smacked down, then disappear from the thread
Broken Loose said:
I asked it before, and I got blown off: How is iad anything faster than Parasoul f+LP?

You might be shocked to find out that jump startup + minimum airdash height + airdash startup is greater than 13 frames.
Where I list you the complete frames 2 posts after and you blatantly ignore it, continuing to bitch at Dime afterwards when you're as wrong as it gets
Broken Loose said:
Updo is harder to combo after as point Filia than Fiber Upper, Napalm Pillar, Devil Horns, or even Hornet Bomber. Gregor's timing is rather finicky
I can't even begin to believe this statement unless you're running off semantics arguments and go "Pillar xx Bikes is 100/100 on an easy scale, Updo xx Gregor is only 99/100, so it's harder"
Broken Loose said:
The best instant overhead is Parasoul b+LP. Or Painwheel flycancel anything. Or Fortune grounded Axe Kick.
Aside from your frames being wrong (which you would notice if you actually played the game), none of these three is an instant overhead in the first place
Broken Loose said:
Did you know that you can jab [Filia] out of almost all her pressure options
I'm not going to start on the reliability:theoryfighter ratio of this statement

.. There's probably more, but those are just the most recent ones I still remember without even starting to think.
 
There's no way you're going to convince anybody that Parasoul's forward+LP isn't an instant overhead.


You make a lot of other radical claims (like how you posted the frames for jump startup and minimum height, which you didn't) that are all trying really really hard to legitimize being contrarian to me.
 
Broken Loose said:
There's no way you're going to convince anybody that Parasoul's forward+LP isn't an instant overhead.


You make a lot of other radical claims (like how you posted the frames for jump startup and minimum height, which you didn't) that are all trying really really hard to legitimize being contrarian to me.
Instant overheads are all aerial attacks. And it's not even nearly fast enough to be "instant" at 20 frames compared to, say, jump startup + 4 frames in Marvel 3 (Wolverine's instant overhead). http://www.option-select.com/strategy/article/?a=12#instantoverhead
 
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Broken Loose said:
There's no way you're going to convince anybody that Parasoul's forward+LP isn't an instant overhead.
http://www.option-select.com/strategy/article/?a=12#instantoverhead

Instant Overhead is a set term that refers to being grounded, then inputting <7/8/9>+<Normal>.
It's most commonly applied after Fuzzy setups as usual rising air attacks whiff on crouchers, but Filia 9HK hits without.
Parasoul 6LP is a standard grounded Overhead; even if it had 1f startup it would not be classified as an 'instant' OH.

(like how you posted the frames for jump startup and minimum height, which you didn't)
Are you fucking retarded?

IsaVulpes said:
Jump startup = 4f
Minimum Airdash height = 5f
Airdash startup = 0f
j.LK = 7f
16f total. There is no startup on dashes, I dunno what you're on.

Parasoul's 6LP has 20f startup

If you don't believe me, how about you test this yourself?

Training mode, select opponent team Filia/Parasoul.
Put Filia in front of your char, put her on record, walk back a step walk forward a step, IAD j.LK.
- Try to block this.
Put Parasoul in front of your char, put her on record, walk back a step walk forward a step, 6LP
- Block this.

Parasoul's overhead is miles and ages easier to block.
 
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Broken Loose said:
There's no way you're going to convince anybody that Parasoul's forward+LP isn't an instant overhead.


You make a lot of other radical claims (like how you posted the frames for jump startup and minimum height, which you didn't) that are all trying really really hard to legitimize being contrarian to me.


Parasouls f+lp isnt an instant overhead. Its a COMMAND OVERHEAD, like ryus, like ibukis, like akumas.

Pick mvc3 sentinel, crouch, run up to him with damn near any character, press up forward, press an attack button just as you leave the ground.


THAT is an instant overhead.

-edit... And im loling at neutral jump forward... Haha

I guess he thinks he's using honda or rog... Lol
 
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Broken Loose said:
That's my point, though. Squigly j.HP is a gigantic green hitbox that also happens to have some red in it, and it'll never beat another attack. It trades at best, and loses to any non-vulnerable hitbox. The amount of hits is irrelevant, the size is irrelevant, and the conversion possibility afterward is irrelevant. The move cannot counter-hit an opponent. It's a losing proposition, and suggesting Squigly be in the air before or more often than the flight character is kind of laughable.

Thus, I suggested ways for Squigly to get in, like the guy initially asked.

Despite its myriad of weaknesses in every other MU, it is strong vs PW.

Yes, it has to be executed before PW gets an active frame out. Yes, Squigs generally has to be higher than a PW for it to work regularly. But, both cases are easy to actualize. Squig's double jump ironically gives her higher (not necessarily better*) air than PW. As in, when Squigs wants to be higher, she will be higher.

Moreover, once PW is in the air, PW has to have a j.hp going at virtually every moment to avoid j.hp. The second PW loses active frames, she has the disadvantage in the air (vs everyone... but in this case Squigs j.hp).

Really truly, if a Squigs is having a hard time connecting with her j.hp, her timing is off. That's it.

Admittedly, some Squigs run the risk of j.hp predictably, and I will snatch that shit out of the air crazy fast. But that is a player issue and not a move issue... you don't see me sitting there mashing j.mp exactly every .5 seconds.

Edited to add Dime and Isa on the same side... fuck me, the world is ending.
 
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Isn't this supposed to be the tier and match-up thread? When did it become like gameplay?

Also, ignoring start-up frames for a moment, instant over heads are all aerial attacks by definition. So, standing overheads don't even apply.

I don't play Squiggly at all, but seeing how I do play PW, I understand how PW's armour works in SG and what having one hit of armour means for J.HP, I agree with any multi-hit move beating charging J.HP for free. Now, maybe that's not even an issue since you can cancel out of the charge into super to beat whatever is going to knock you out of your aerial.
 
Broken Loose said:
.... Are you aware of how armor works?

Squigly's j.HP has no armor and no disjointed hitbox. If it were to trade with a move that has armor, she'd be put into hitstun while the opponent wouldn't. j.HP could do 30 hits and end in a Harry Potter Movie Marathon and it would still lose to armored, invulnerable, or disjointed hitboxes just the same.
So I just want to say that Broken Loose is actually right and you guys just misunderstood what he was trying to say. While everyone was talking about how PW can't armor through Squigly's j.hp Broken was talking about how Squigly's j.hp does not beat PW j.hp when it is already out. So basically who ever puts j.hp on the screen first wins in this situation.

Done end of desiccation move on to the next question and stop arguing about things that don't mater.


(I would like to defend Broken Loose because he knows more about this game and fighting games in general than most of the people here, He just seems to misunderstand some of the questions and answer questions that where never asked.)


Short version: You guys need to chill.
 
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So basically I got to throw out my j. HP before Pain does. Thank you.

Winnie since you are a squigly player (I assume cause of what's under your avi), do u have any general advice in how Squigly approaches the Painwheel matchup?
 
blufang said:
So basically I got to throw out my j. HP before Pain does. Thank you.

Winnie since you are a squigly player (I assume cause of what's under your avi), do u have any general advice in how Squigly approaches the Painwheel matchup?

Or wait until PW's j.hp's active frames are over. Try a double jump. You'll bring j.hp right on top of her head right as the active frames end.
 
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I cant say much about the match up because I have only been able to play Squigly once a week for the last month but the few times I have come to this match up I like to use Squigly's air normals (many j.hp) to bully PW out of the air. If you can keep PW grounded you have a better time winning the neutral game. The thing that both PW and Squigly share is a sub par neutral game but if either of them can land a hit and get going they become very scary characters.

If you want better advice I suggest asking a real Squigly player because my Squigly knowledge is limited. If my advice doesn't help than you can always not listen to me, I don't mind.
 
It seems like (in the air) da gurl squigs has an avantage.

A great jumping short and jap, jumping fierce, a double jump, jumping forward hits like a billion times, divekick.

I dunno.
 
@blufang

I can tell you what makes Squigs hard for me if that will help.

j.hp when you can. Don't be obvious with it. Double jump j.hp when PW takes to the sky and j.hp. When PW is on the ground, you can time it late and hit her with it on the ground.

Do not use your daisy pusher as a mash. We will jump out of it and make you hurt. Your other special is far better vs PW (remember... we can't block when we are flying).

When you decide to go in, have an optimized combo. Squigs has some serious issues, but damage is not one and you can put serious hurt on when you do confirm. To confirm, you are going to have to take some risks. Squigs has a decent crossover game since her dive kick tracks and she has pretty unpredictable air movement. That said, a failed dive kick is going to hurt (this is why it is important to put PW off her game with h.hp or PW will dictate flow and that is bad for you).

Your scorpion move is a gamble (whiff is a death sentence), so you are best not using it without a combo. Her DP is shit unless it is charged, then it is pretty good.

Center stage is another huge gamble. I can't count how many times it has turned one of my defensive j.mp into an offensive j.mp and a full combo. I'd really recommend not using it either unless you have a clear gameplan (like into an updo or some shit).

Hope that helps.
 
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Thx for the advice guys. I'm kind of terrified at being on the ground against Pain, cause of her quick fly/unfly high/low game. So I do jump a lot, cause none of Squigly's ground moves seem effective for keeping Pain out of the air. I don't go for her various stance moves except in combos, and essentially I want to knock Pain out of the air and then try to mix her up on the ground. I don't divekick unless I'm absolutely sure she's going to be forced to block it, whiffing it spells Squigly's end as Spencer pointed out. Her inferno super seems pretty good (when I have all that meter) to surprise Pain out of the air.
 
keninblack said:
Every single fucking mirror match is cringe worthy.

Peacock vs Parasoul or Painwheel. Rip

Parasoul vs Painwheel s/o j.lp ggs


Peacock vs Painwheel. How is this match fought that it's so disgustingly in Peacock's favor? What assists make it so Painwheel isn't shit outta luck.

Same for Peacock vs Parasoul.
 
Shame to say it, but.......

Item Drop/Double butt seem the best for that matchup.

You can try Hairball or Bypass.
 
Dhoppler said:
Peacock vs Painwheel. How is this match fought that it's so disgustingly in Peacock's favor? What assists make it so Painwheel isn't shit outta luck.

Same for Peacock vs Parasoul.


Funnily enough, mmds seems to be pretty good at the painwheel versus peacock matchup. Personally what i do is grab myself an hk bomber assist... But that didnt help me against tj gamer or mr peck at evo.

Against other peacocks i tend to fare ok but the matchup is quite balls, tbqh. I picked up peacock myself as a counter to other peacocks... Lol

And yes mirrors with the slight exception of peacock mirrors.. Are balls in this game...though thats nothing inherent to sg... Mirrors are ass in most fighters. Except ryu v ryu... That shit is tight.
 
I zoned out during the last Salty. Did Filia get buffed to Fortune tier?
 
Nah, Filia's just dumb.
 
So uh when are we making a matchup chart? It'll give us something to talk about, at least. [url]http://pastebin.com/68f80eWv[/URL]
And since I imagine someone will say that it's pointless to do 1v1 matchups since there are assists... I put my reasoning in the pastebin, but at least it wouldn't hurt to at least get something up, right?
 
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Parasoul:

Mirror 5:5

P:Squigly 6:4

P:Ms.Fortune 5:5 or 4:6

P:Peacock 4:6

P:Painwheel 6:4 (hard 6:4)

P:Filia 5:5

P:Cerebella 6:4

P:Valentine 4:6

P:Double 6:4
 
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