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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

GirlyStyle said:
Please refer to my example, being Domo's list.

I understand that its a list, and that its in a list in order, and the + or lack there of represents a value which is minimal (maybe? others have had differing opinions already...) but still creates separation, but my issue here is when people change the standards of their list and their values (where the top of ONE section is S+, where the height of another is simply S).

This takes it outside of the realm of comparison of a list and places more weight on these made up values, and can make it hard to discuss the intricacies of someone's opinion.

Why not just have values which serve the same purpose as Camail is talking about (something being a list, 1 is better then 2, etc) as opposed to attaching values with no definition? Is there any reason not to? If you feel the reason to attach such a value, is there any reason to not give it context?
Again, it's not formal, it's just their view of where the gaps in power between characters lie. You seem to be expecting more from the tier list, like how big those gaps of power are, when you can't really expect that from a casually generated list. If anyone does a big tier chart with all their match-ups and thorough testing then you'll get that, but this thread is really just speculation.

Alstein said:
Stuff
The meaning of a letter grouping is relative, you can't decide what it means across the entirety of the genre.
Yes, all skullgirls characters could fit under A... but there are still differences in power, even if they're more subtle. So does that mean that we should just give up on a tier list because it's more balanced than other games, even if it's not perfect balance because it's damn near impossible to combine perfect balance with actually entertaining gameplay?
 
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GirlyStyle said:
Please refer to my example, being Domo's list.

I understand that its a list, and that its in a list in order, and the + or lack there of represents a value which is minimal (maybe? others have had differing opinions already...) but still creates separation, but my issue here is when people change the standards of their list and their values (where the top of ONE section is S+, where the height of another is simply S).

This takes it outside of the realm of comparison of a list and places more weight on these made up values, and can make it hard to discuss the intricacies of someone's opinion.

Why not just have values which serve the same purpose as Camail is talking about (something being a list, 1 is better then 2, etc) as opposed to attaching values with no definition? Is there any reason not to? If you feel the reason to attach such a value, is there any reason to not give it context?


In terms of value to the community, someone merely ranking the characters is almost completely useless and if there is no information other than the list it is very likely that it wasn't thought out in a comprehensive matter. If you are arguing that we need something more than mere lists, then I agree with you.

The only reason our ranking denotation is acceptable is because the standard is so low. Yes, we can do it all we like, but what's the point? Does anyone gain anything from posting a list? Even if we got everyone to vote in a poll and average out the rankings, why would we even want to? If you want to do it merely as an entertaining exercise then by all means I encourage you, making simple tier lists is not causing anyone harm, but as fighting game players who are trying to win the game shouldn't we be FAR more concerned with what motivated these ranks? It is far more likely that we will have a substantive discussion about aspects of characters when we make them clear, rather than having to dig through vague tier lists until we get to the real heart of the matter. Tier lists are all motivated by opinions of how the characters are matched up against each other, so at best a tier list should be used as an index that guides you through discussion and tells you where to look for the information you want.

At least, that's what I want.

EDIT:
@Horseman This thread isn't necessarily for informal tier lists. The title has the word discussion in it, as well as there being some examples of detailed analyses earlier on in the thread.
 
Camail said:
@Horseman This thread isn't necessarily for informal tier lists. The title has the word discussion in it, as well as there being some examples of detailed analyses earlier on in the thread.
Not saying this would be a bad place to put a researched tier list, but the list he was referring to was pretty clearly casual, and for the most part this is just a discussion and not a thread in which we actually research how good each character is. The most complex we've gotten so far is a popular vote tier list, which is certainly better than a tier list created on a whim from personal experience, but also not as accurate as it could be.
 
Off topic but oh well since this has the biggest view post count in gameplay I'll post this here for those few that don't know:

The old default skullheart layout/font/colors is still available to get. You just have to go to your preferences and change from default to sh filmstrip and click save changes at the bottom.

Ok back on topic.
 
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FUNDAMENTAL SKILLS:

I think that when addressing any tier thread, its important to also have at least a passing knowledge of fundamental skills... These are generally skills or abilities that 2 or more (but not all) characters possess that make them better than if they didn't have them. If its exclusive to 1 character only,.. Then the skill can't be called fundamental.

I'm going to list a bunch of fundamental skills, I hope some of you learn something from this, but much more importantly I hope that some people will contribute there own versions of what a fundamental skill could be.

These in no way are ranked in order of importance.. If I get up to 40 of them the 40th may well be the strongest skill.

1. Safe (ish) on block super
2. Double jump
3. Fast startup run or dash, or just having a run.
4. Disjointed hitbox aerial normal
5. Corner to corner universal bnb carry. (This may not be fundamental, double is the only character that I know of that has this)
6. A way to cancel wiffed air normals into something that is generally safe on wiff (so doubles items don't count) but airdashes, and flys do as do divekicks.
7. Airdash
8. Throws that convert into full combo without need of special circumstances (being able to do it for no meter counts as a bonus)
9. A projectile move that can be done by the point character to help the point character get in or further allow the point character to act as the projectile impedes the opponents space. Bella and squigly don't have this as far as I know, some obvious examples are: fortunes head, peacocks item drop holds and Georges, parasouls lp shot, regular tears, and bike. Painwheels nails when fly canceled. Another way to think of these moves is basically like assists.
10. Advancing hitbox special that can be called while also calling a lockdown assist: not used much yet but I think that might change with this post. Characters that can use this to some extent are: fortune 1 hit rekka plus like hairball or dragn bite (assume all of these are with these 2 assists) or double with slide, or painwheel with lvl1 pinion from sde, Bella might be able to do this with her lp lnl or with her armored headbutt... Etc etc etc. these need to be explored more imho. They have a tendency to counteract pushblock and they are harder to punish since the point will generally recover before the assist does so that they can cover the assist with something like a mixup or bait. The good versions of these also hitconfirm into full combo. So they really are close to cant go wrong moves and will generally have to be ac'd out of or avoided or pbgc'd... Which makes them exceptionally strong if one can get in.
11. Near universal assist:

Such as drag n bite or hp updo or cerecopter or lk bomber etc etc.
12. Super (DHC) that allows for more combo afterwards. Such as Gregor, or cats, but things like Lenny or hp hatred install count as well.
13. Viable raw tag setup, fullscreen or corner.
14. Invincible non metered reversal, major bonus points if it can be made relatively safe for 1 meter or if it confirms into full combo.


That's it for now. But having any of these makes a character almost auto better whereas losing any of these makes a character auto worse.


When thinking of tiers I think fundamentals such as these have to also be taken into account, if not obviously then it should be on the back of everyone's minds at least.
 
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Told ya making a tier list in such a flexible and well balaced game would't work well...
 
Actually this is the probably the most productive tier thread ever made. The construction of a very well made tier list requires that the person understand everything else about the game, so if we all go on a little journey together in this thread everyone will benefit from it.
 
Yep, seeing the reason I didn't discussion tiers when I did my write up. lol
 
Here's an idea. Stop talking about tiers, which is helping nobody and start talking about match-ups.
 
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Variable ratios and assists makes Matchup ranking pretty difficult.
 
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Jason said:
Variable ratios and assists makes Matchup ranking pretty difficult.
Not really. When you talk about matchups you talk about how a character fares against another character without an assist since... well... that's the matchup. With tier lists you assume that the character is backed by an optimal assist, but not with matchups. If an assist tips the favor of a matchup, then feel free to mention that, but it doesn't change the 1v1 matchup.
 
I don't see it that way at all. In say 3v1, certain pokes and combos become much more practical for the solo versus if they were trio. For instance Bella's lvl3 takes on completely different properties as a solo than as a trio... As a solo she can probably kill 2 characters with it... As a 3v1 probably not or need optimal positioning and dhc...

And things like her F+hp become more important as well. So in a matchup where she is even ratio, they MIGHT not matter much whereas in a different ratio it might matter alot... Kinda like when DEV was saying that mvc2 ironman was a higher tier on high damage machines.. I can't remember the reasoning, but it does generally make some sense.

The only times I can think that ratios don't matter much is in 7-3 or higher matchups. In more or less even matchups the ratio skews things highly. Like I was losing to a painwheel team that was a trio: pw/double/filia
And I was using a trio team with painwheel anchor... Then I decided to go to duo with painwheel in front of dubs and was winning... My pw and dubs were just doing to much compared to the other guys pw even though he had the better assists and combos.

Had he switched ratios to duo he might have fared much better... Point being that in the supposedly even matchup of pw versus pw with same assists (we both had hornet bomber m) and where he had an extra assist..,the matchup wasn't even at all... Completely affected by ratio.

I can't think of a better argument than that, that ratio affects matchups considerably. Another obvious one: I was using my peacock team as a trio versus a duo... Was doing so so... to bad... Changed up the team to duo and dropped pw. And now am near dominating. All because m bomber to argus actually does respectable damage now. Whereas before it didn't, which meant that I had to use more meter to kill, which meant less meter for my second coming in... Which meant no safe dhc etc etc etc
 
Dime_x said:
Stuff
If I have trouble getting in on and getting a hit on a character due to the matchup, then getting rid of a character on my team to raise my damage and health still isn't going to make getting that hit any easier for my character.

You provided examples of why you think ratios matter, but at the same time one or two examples based on your own experiences is not really enough to be all that convincing, to be honest. Maybe you were just better than the guy. Maybe the character you dropped was just an unnecessary weak link. Maybe the other guy had a personal bad matchup against one of the characters you didn't dropped. Maybe you adapted to his playstyle. You gaining more health and damage didn't make the matchup easier for you, it just meant that your opponent had to get hit less, optimize his damage, or reset more.
 
GirlyStyle said:
How is this not confusing/arbitrary?

What is the difference between S+ and S? why does one tier go from S to S+ but then the other goes from S to A? What are
the values that allow that difference?

Yo. ---V

worldjem said:
The problem with letter rankings is that people have different definitions for what the letters mean. Some people think "S" is broken, others think "S" is just the best in the game, or just really good, but not good enough to be broken. The rest of the letters would follow the strength of S meaning the way you think of letter tiers could be completely different from the way someone else thinks of letter tiers. This is one of the reasons why there's a lot more unnecessary debate about tiers than there could be.

A tier list should be viewed relatively within each respective game, meaning using "best to worst" instead of trying to quantify a power level.

____________________________________________

The problem is that if we include multi-character teams, then the matchup list increases exponentially, and I don't think anyone is going to go through 171,405 matchups (this is without including assists). There are just too many match-ups for it to be feasible to properly go through every single one and give a proper analysis. Gauging strength based on 1v1 is easier to make a more accurate analysis that encompasses the whole game because it helps show the minimum highest potential of each character.
 
@KhaosMuffins

I concede and agree with all of your points except one (or 2):

"Maybe he should just get hit less"

I think that goes for any matchup versus any character in any fighting game that was on the losing end.
Saying that, I don't see it as a "fair" point to make. Nor do I see "maybe he needed to reset more" as a fair point either... But the rest I definitely agree with. Still, I think that matchups ARE affected by damage. If they weren't, then changing damage from 1 version of a game to another wouldn't affect anything... But changing damage does affect matchups.

But like i said, I can see where you are coming from and agree with many of the things you say.


Another example to point out:

Painwheel versus filia is highly in filias favor online at least. One reason is because painwheel doesn't have easy or highly damaging safe answers to filias iad j.hp... Painwheel does have answers, but they are generally low damage or highly unsafe: airsuper into full combo, but if pw misses, she gets punished easily and very hard., st.mk... Plants painwheel for a long time and does no damage.. In an even ratio, math just eats up pw with the amount of times she will have to actually connect with one of these things versus one blocked j.hp could mean mixup hell.


BUT, if the pw is solo versus a trio filia... One correct airsuper, into shitty combo into reset into another shitty or full combo...will kill filia outright... Meaning that the filia has to respect that option much more... Giving painwheel mindgame counterplay to start her offense... Also its a guess the painwheel is much more willing to make cause guessing wrong more than likely will not get the pw killed out right.

IMHO, bad matchups are where one side has to make harder decisions, either harder cause so few decisions are viable, or harder cause most decisions do little damage whereas are punished hardcore.


Another obvious example...
Ryu versus ryu on cvs2

One is ratio 3. The other is ratio 1

Is that matchup even?
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Not really. When you talk about matchups you talk about how a character fares against another character without an assist since... well... that's the matchup.
No?.?

[Cerebella vs. Peacock] plays entirely different than [Cerebella vs Peacock/Doublebutt] which plays completely different compared to [Cerebella/Centerstage vs Peacock/Doublebutt]

Assists are a crucial tool in Neutral, for Combos, for Resets and for Defense; you can't just ignore them when talking about a matchup.
Stating "Valentine: All matchups 4-6 at best, because she lacks a reversal and thus dies after getting touched once" has no meaning at all, because Valentine *does* have a GTFO move - Updo assist.

Ideally, you'd write out a matchup analysis for 1v1 and then have a paragraph for the common assists (grouped as lockdown / DP / etc unless a specific one stands out) and how they change stuff; eg "Bella v Peacock: In Bella favour because Pea projectiles get armored through ; Bella v Pea/Double: Vastly in Pea favour because Butt beats armor + Pea gains fullscreen mixups ; Bella/Squig v Pea/Double: Still in Pea favour, but less so because item drop gets ruined by CStage"
 
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A Tier - Characters with an airdash or flight
B Tier - Characters without an airdash or flight

That's pretty much my tier list.
 
I take back what I said about peacock and squigly... Squigly because not enough is known about her and I don't think the vast majority of her charged moves are worth it... Unless she can gain charges mid combo like Val's vials... And even then its kinda meh.

And I take back what I said about peacock. The bomb nerf along with her item drop nerfs means that her projectile pokes aren't used as much... Rather she just holds mp item now...but since she throws out less projectiles on the whole she makes ALOT LESS METER than she used to and that's combined with the overall meter nerfs. Right now I barely have enough meter to support picking up assist otg argus confirms whereas before along with her dying I got a good amount of meter for my next character even while using argus hitconfirms from assists.

Now... Fuck no, not even... And that matters alot cause it hangs her secondary character that she was supposed to battery for.

Of course she could just save her meter... But that damn near might as well kill her cause she will be doing shit for damage since she's no can opener and her run is kinda bad for confirming assist otgs. So I put her at midtier maybe lower... The meter nerf hurts her the most as far as I can tell. It doesn't seem to hurt double nearly as much cause double was given compensation for losing 1meter cats... Peacock got very little compensation for losing her hp Homing item and 3 Bombs on screen.

IMHO
 
Dime_x said:
I take back what I said about peacock and squigly... Squigly because not enough is known about her and I don't think the vast majority of her charged moves are worth it... Unless she can gain charges mid combo like Val's vials... And even then its kinda meh.
She can
And I take back what I said about peacock. The bomb nerf along with her item drop nerfs means that her projectile pokes aren't used as much... Rather she just holds mp item now...but since she throws out less projectiles on the whole she makes ALOT LESS METER than she used to and that's combined with the overall meter nerfs. Right now I barely have enough meter to support picking up assist otg argus confirms whereas before along with her dying I got a good amount of meter for my next character even while using argus hitconfirms from assists.

Now... Fuck no, not even... And that matters alot cause it hangs her secondary character that she was supposed to battery for.

Of course she could just save her meter... But that damn near might as well kill her cause she will be doing shit for damage since she's no can opener and her run is kinda bad for confirming assist otgs. So I put her at midtier maybe lower... The meter nerf hurts her the most as far as I can tell. It doesn't seem to hurt double nearly as much cause double was given compensation for losing 1meter cats... Peacock got very little compensation for losing her hp Homing item and 3 Bombs on screen.

IMHO

I disagree with her not being able to open people up. She doesn't do the conventional high/low stuff like everyone else, but she has a lot of setups to put the opponent in a 50/50 crossup mixup. Couple that with her having the second highest damage output in the game. Just yesterday I figured out 10k combo for 1 meter.

Sure her runaway/keepaway was nerfed, but she she was compensated in areas she was lacking that people aren't completely exploring because they are so used to just putting stuff on the screen. Instead of picking up with argus off an assist, why not take that knockdown and try to create a setup to land a hit into a full combo instead? I've already figured out specific things for when I get off random hits with my assist that don't require me to just throw out a laser.

I'm not saying she might not be nerfed overall, because I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about her positioning. Nerfing her excellent zoning and meter build is definitely a big hit, but she can actually do things over then zone.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Stuff
When I look at a matchup thread, I want to know how the characters clash in a 1v1 situation because I want the bare-bones knowledge (if I'm using that phrase correctly). I want to know why my character loses against another so I can use that information to know which assist I should be picking. Let's take Cerebella vs Peacock. Someone could write out, "Cerebella's biggest issue is getting in on Peacock, though an assist can help with getting in" and what does that tell me? That tells me that I need to worry about getting in or pick an assist that'll help me get in. If someone were to compare Cerebella with Hairball assist vs Peacock then they could write, "Hairball gets you in for free, go nuts!" (this is just an example, don't read too far into it). It's not even Cerebella vs Peacock anymore, it's Cerebella and friends vs Peacock, so of course it's going to be entirely different. However, that doesn't tell me what to do in situations where Cerebella suddenly doesn't have an assist.

But that's what I think. Either way... can we actually start throwing up matchup info instead of doing what Age pointed out above? Do it 1v1 or while including assists; just put out something.
 
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What Khaos said, match-up thread needs to be 1v1 so players can take that information and decide which assists they may need to cover the weaknesses. And tier discussion is useless at the end of the day, SG has no real turn-out at tournaments, so there's no way to get a list with results; it's just going to be pages of opinions with no real backing. Best bet is to just focus on 1v1 match-up, talk about what works, what doesn't and what assists you can use to make it easier.

Example: Dealing with Fortune's body mobility and the head on the ground can make the Peacock/Fortune match-up difficult, so it's a good idea to pick up an assist that covers the head (Cerecopter + a LK Bomb will send the head full screen) and allows Peacock to focus on zoning out the body. Or, an assist that covers her from the body's approach while she deals with the head directly (AA assist while she's launching and punting the head back across the screen).
 
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Why can't we talk about both 1v1 and assisted 1v1 in terms of match ups? Yes we need to understand who two characters fair against each other unassisted, but we can ALSO talk about how certain assist will be able to cover certain holes. And we can't just assume that people will pick the best possible assists because we also need to figure out the match ups for people who don't want to play the characters with the optimal assists. The two conversations are different but they are not mutually exclusive. If you are saying "squigly has no defensive options" then that is important match up information, it is also important information that their are assists to help her with that. I would consider both to be part of the match up conversation. We should want to talk about both unassisted and assisted match ups.

Most of the work can be done in the unassisted match up discussion because that is where you set out to find all the pros and cons and the assisted conversation is mostly about filling up those holes, but I think we are all aware of the way an assist adds to the depth of the neutral game and that is where we talk about the assisted match ups.
 
Camail said:
Why can't we talk about both 1v1 and assisted 1v1 in terms of match ups? Yes we need to understand who two characters fair against each other unassisted, but we can ALSO talk about how certain assist will be able to cover certain holes. And we can't just assume that people will pick the best possible assists because we also need to figure out the match ups for people who don't want to play the characters with the optimal assists. The two conversations are different but they are not mutually exclusive. If you are saying "squigly has no defensive options" then that is important match up information, it is also important information that their are assists to help her with that. I would consider both to be part of the match up conversation. We should want to talk about both unassisted and assisted match ups.

Most of the work can be done in the unassisted match up discussion because that is where you set out to find all the pros and cons and the assisted conversation is mostly about filling up those holes, but I think we are all aware of the way an assist adds to the depth of the neutral game and that is where we talk about the assisted match ups.

We can. I don't think neither view nor Khaos is saying we can't or shouldn't.

That said, it is something that is more relevant in a guide as a chapter entitled "good assists". Using assists to compare vs other MU is superfluous because you are essentially saying toon A vs (toon B - [weakness/es]). In a 1v1 comparison, we acknowledge the hole leaving the question of "how to cover the weakness" as a distinct discussion (which as you point out, can be had along side of the 1v1 conversation). I like the distinction because if for no other reason, it keeps it clean and tidy.
 
@RemiKz

I agree with what you say there. The problem is she no longer has a flow chart of success that actually.... Works. She still needs to space to call out item drop. Her mixups aren't the conventional high/low or low/throw (though she does have weaker versions of them) but even her item drop mixups and stuff are... Kinda meh when people have played against them. They will just back away from the item charge and then you will be stuck holding a useless item drop that if charged to lvl3 does nothing AND takes forever to cooldown. Not that that some of those points can't be taken positively. But her overall strength seems lackluster...even with a big combo (what is it btw?) I don't see her being much past midtier... Big combos don't always make for top tier characters... It's control that generally makes for top tier.

And her not having a "good" flowchart is a problem when every other good character in the game does have a good flowchart.

Val = jump around and call out updo.
Painwheel = fly around and look for places to drop a bomber on 'em
Fortune = pretty much same as Val except slower and more defensive behind her own dp
.... Meh people don't like my lists so whatever, point being that everyone has some good go to stuff... Peacocks flowchart (or, go to strategy if you prefer that term) is run away, charge mp item drop... Run at opponent like steve carell holding a grenade, watch as opponent runs away if they know what's good for them, watch as item reaches lvl 3 and wiffs and now have to go back to being defensive or call out a lockdown assist if the item drop made contact...


But... Idk... It's just not "good" pwns the shit out of painwheel... But... Meh. It just seems like both her offense and defense are underwhelming now. Not particularly great at either, though neither is super weak, as well. She's like supposed to transpose between both I guess... But it still seems... I don't know... Not great i guess.

As far as using her item for oki pressure... I kinda still don't see it.. It doesn't do much in that regard from what I can tell... I've been trying to use it that way but it seems super lackluster. Also... For whatever reason, her mp item which is supposed to track close to her... Doesn't seem to track behind her well at all.. Either that or when transitioning from being in front to in back it slows down... I have people tech behind me when I'm holding item drop and the damn thing misses like 95% of the time... Of course I find that really annoying.

So yeah it isn't like I haven't tried different styles of play. She just seems lacking compared to her sde counterpart. And I don't feel that way about double who also lost stuff.


-edit

@KhaosMuffins

The problem with tiering this game 1v1 is that you are either alienating a huge percentage of the higher level players since teams make up like 99% of the high level play, or:

Forcing people to either shut up as far as the tier list goes, or play theory fighter in matchups they've never played, or actually go out and fight solo on solo matches to try and accrue matchup knowledge just to post in a tier thread.

What will happen is people will post up theory fighter.

And "that thing up there" is a list for people that don't know. If you already know, and I think you do... It isn't for you.

I honestly don't know what exactly it is you are asking for... You want 1v1 matchup knowledge, but don't want something complicated, but do want something accurate, but don't want it based on assists, but do want people to just go for it and say stuff...
It just seems all over the place. And in the end will be Inaccurate to boot. Cause deciphering what characters have problems with is based on an assortment of 4 things no matter the matchup. They need to get in, or keep out, or help with AA, or help opening another character up. It isn't rocket science.
 
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I would think Peacock's go-to strategy now is make space, charge m-item drop, continue to flood the screen with H moves and the Georges, drop item early if opponent is running away or move in with it if the opponent is still pushing. If opponent backs off due to item, rinse and repeat.

Honestly, I'll drop the three bomb patterns all day (never even bothered with them) for the real reversal and real AA she got (mainly this); having two good throws instead of one is great and if all M shadow is good for now is making the opponent run themselves into the corner and avoid Peacock up-close then I'll take it; more space is always a good thing. It's not as brain- dead as "hold H item, run in" anymore, but for players who learned how to use all of her tools, it's amazing.
 
Dime_x said:
@RemiKz

I agree with what you say there. The problem is she no longer has a flow chart of success that actually.... Works. She still needs to space to call out item drop. Her mixups aren't the conventional high/low or low/throw (though she does have weaker versions of them) but even her item drop mixups and stuff are... Kinda meh when people have played against them. They will just back away from the item charge and then you will be stuck holding a useless item drop that if charged to lvl3 does nothing AND takes forever to cooldown. Not that that some of those points can't be taken positively. But her overall strength seems lackluster...even with a big combo (what is it btw?) I don't see her being much past midtier... Big combos don't always make for top tier characters... It's control that generally makes for top tier.

I have no problem getting the space/opportunity to call out a shadow. Something as simple as j.MK on block, j.HK, airdash back gives you room to call it. Or just about calling any assist that forces your opponent to block.

I don't see what the problem is with your opponent backing away from your shadow, isn't that a good thing in fact? It means you aren't being hit and you can pester them with HP/HP bang/george. You also don't NEED to hold it to level 3.

I'm not saying she's great or should be in a higher tier (I put her pretty low on my own list), but she kind of seems just about the same as SDE to me.

As far as using her item to for oki pressure... I kinda still don't see it.. It doesn't do much in that regard. From what I can tell... I've been trying to use it that way but it seems super lackluster. Also... For whatever reason, her mp item which is supposed to track close to her... Doesn't. Seem to track behind her well at all.. Either that or when transitioning from being in from to in back it slows down... I have people tech behind me when I'm holding item drop and the damn thing misses like 95% of the time... Of course I find that really annoying.

She can do so many variants of item drop oki, I'm not sure why you aren't finding success with it. Try something like j.MK, airdash over them and release the item or fake the crossup and j.HP back to the original side. If they block the j.MK, just airdash and drop the item to keep yourself in their face and go for a low/throw mixup. Off a c.MK hit (which will hit them if they upback if timed properly), you can go into HP(1), MK george, LK george, launcher.


As for the combo with peacock, I was doing:

LP, MP, HP + assist (LnL in my case)
dash jump j.MK, j.HK, land
j.MP, j.HK, land,
j.HP, j.LP, j.MP, land,
LP, MP, HP(1), MK george, LK george, dash forward
c.LK, MP, HK, HP SoiD(hold), argus, release shadow, HP bang.

Seemed to work on a few characters, the ground ender with the georges seemed impossible to do on filia. You can always substitute it for a different ender for 8-9k damage midscreen for 1 meter. Also works great in the corner and even goes into 3 HK loops since you hardly use any stun and no ground normals.
 
@View619

I didn't hold items much before. So I guess I wasn't using the braindead strategy you describe. I did however use hp item as an all screen poke. Also I've tried using her the way you talk and it just doesn't work very well... Not like she used to be. I don't control the screen nearly as well and the things that you talk about don't actually work as you seem to think they do. If you drop a wiffed item... You are hurting cause you can't charge another item for a long time, and even then the item will still have to go through lvl 1 charge before it gets to lvl2. Poking with lvl 1 items has been drastically nerfed cause the damn spacing where they intersect is actually where most of the games play will take place... Mid range where one step forward is a medium item drop and one step backward is an hp item drop.

But maybe I'm using her wrong. I haven't experimented with st.hp while charging mp item.. But people are never on the ground so... Yeah, don't see it being that great with so few ways to force the opponent to stay grounded.

But some things I could do that I'm not yet: using mk bomb in lk Bombs place.
Use st.hp while charging mp item drops
Use more lvl 1 hp item drop when near fullscreen since wiffing at that range is less detrimental than missing an mp item poke at closer range.

But honestly I don't think those things are going to do much. My peacock is still getting wins. I'm still playing her "well" she just makes no sense and is super inconsistent. Cause her tools are super inconsistent.
 
Also I forgot to mention that MP SoiD only tracks like a character's distance behind peacock. I asked Mike if he could make MP and HP SoiD track their respect distance from peacock even if she switches sides with the opponent but he never ended up adding it.
 
S - Double (most useful charcater in the game overall across all teams)
A - Peacock, Valentine, Parasoul, Filia, Painwheel
B - Cerebella, Fortune, Squigly

I actually think its this balanced
 
NY_Jailhouse said:
S - Double (most useful charcater in the game overall across all teams)
A - Peacock, Valentine, Parasoul, Filia, Painwheel
B - Cerebella, Fortune, Squigly

I actually think its this balanced


Why do you think Fortune is so low? She also has a lot of similar qualities to Double in the way she has so much utility/use but operates better as a character on screen (although I agree Double fits to any dynamic a bit easier due to her strength as an anchor/assist/DHC)
 
Tl:dr version of this thread.

Squigly is the youngest character so she sucks.

Fuck an alphabet.

Cerebella is dumb.

Only like 3 people can use Fortune well but she da bes.

Where the fuck does Valentine go?

I'm not flaccid
 
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dunno why i put her there actually shes clearly more useful than bella and squig
 
I've been watching and playing more and feel like making a less shitty list.

Top Tier:
Filia, Valentine, Fortune.

High Tier:
Parasoul, Double, Painwheel.

Mid Tier:
Peacock, Cerebella


Idk where to put squigs still
 
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I'm still convinced that Squigly isn't at the bottom because she is new/unexplored, but because she is just very limited to what she can do in the neutral against everyone else in the cast.
 
RemiKz said:
I'm still convinced that Squigly isn't at the bottom because she is new/unexplored, but because she is just very limited to what she can do in the neutral against everyone else in the cast.


Yes but you aren't taking into account possible assist/team combinations which could possibly help her out in this aspect. She already shows lots of strength and has good team synergy/DHC synergy, so this kind thing is entirely possible.
 
GirlyStyle said:
Yes but you aren't taking into account possible assist/team combinations which could possibly help her out in this aspect. She already shows lots of strength and has good team synergy/DHC synergy, so this kind thing is entirely possible.

The thing is, I could see how every other character could be effective with possible assist/team combinations. I've experimented a lot and I'm just not seeing her being better compared to any other character. It's not like I'm saying she doesn't have any strengths and is garbage, but she is definitely lacking. You can point out that she might have good assists and DHC's, but we already have that in the form of Double who arguably does everything she does but better.

She has plenty of resets and mixups once she actually lands a hit, but landing that hit against most of the cast is the problem because she doesn't really have many ways of opening you up.

I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong though.
 
RemiKz said:
The thing is, I could see how every other character could be effective with possible assist/team combinations. I've experimented a lot and I'm just not seeing her being better compared to any other character. It's not like I'm saying she doesn't have any strengths and is garbage, but she is definitely lacking. You can point out that she might have good assists and DHC's, but we already have that in the form of Double who arguably does everything she does but better.

She has plenty of resets and mixups once she actually lands a hit, but landing that hit against most of the cast is the problem because she doesn't really have many ways of opening you up.

I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong though.


its not about proving you wrong, its about knowing she hasn't been out and used long enough to determine large and encompassing placements/"facts" about for her.

Like off the top of my head I can think of one good SG player using her with any kind of regularity (Guitalex) and that's really about it.

That being said, I imagine assists like H LnL does wonders for her.
 
so H LnL ive heard that this "counters" like updo and pillar... and im about at my whits end with those assists (EVERYONE in Australia uses updo) and though I can beat people that use them... its hard and boring and... annoying as all fuck, especially when there are like 5-6 really good players out here and ALL of them use updo (or pillar) pillar isn't soooo bad cause it takes more skill to use. but back to the original uestion: does lock n load counter these 1 hit reversal assists? and if it does, does that mean the bella could use a bump in the tiers?

as I see it right now:

hairball counters bomber
fireball such as peacock st/hp counters hairball
bomber counters fireball
lock n load counters dp assists?
dp assist counter aggressive offense

these aren't 9-1 or 10-0 counters, just you know an approximation that one assist Is likely to beat out another.
ie, its harder to use bomber when the opponent has hk hairball assist cause it "tends" to beat out bomber cleanly if called correctly.
 
HP LnL and Battle Butt can counter updo/pillar because of the super armor letting them still truck through even if they get hit.
 
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