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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

I'm trying to give this as fair a shot as possible, but I'm actually getting a little upset. This is taking my favorite game and throwing what I love out the window by trying to emulate the worst part of a series that I hate. If that's what the community wants then ok, I don't have the authority or the clout to say otherwise, but personally I'll need to find a new game if this goes into the retail release.
 
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@Skarmand
Yep. I have no answer to your point at blocking low into forward jump.
Charging Pillar would not be a problem I suppose, since pressing any button other than directions between the motion would give them priority. This already happens with regular superjump and Pillar.

Maybe a manual input can be done instead of a charge? Mike's messing with KK, so maybe that should come up as something for it?

Yeah, maybe charging will not work indeed, but I sure like the idea of forcing the player to be crouching for some frames so he can do the thing. Even "linking" it after some grounded normals feels fair.
 
Skullmageddon said:
What if SJ's worked exactly like they did before the current change (both at neutral and after launchers), but you could also input the MvC style SJ by holding down for an extended number of frames before jumping?

This is what I want IF this change is made permanent. I want the superjump option as a neutral tool but don't like how it effects combos. I think launchers should still automatically make you go to the old height.

edit: Apparently this has already been addressed and its not going to work like this if it sticks, my mistake
 
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@noaa I meant I'm charging pillar but I don't want pillar I just want jump. Now I can't cuz I charged down.
 
FuLLBLeeD said:
This is what I want. I want the superjump option as a neutral tool but don't like how it effects combos. I think launchers should still automatically make you go to the old height.

I think this would be a happy medium I guess. I'd prefer not to have it period.
 
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@Skarmand Oh I see. Sorry I misread that. Yeah, I picture the issue now, and I have no answer for that aswell.
 
dekillsage said:
I don't really want the super jump option as a neutral tool. Sonicfox pretty much summed up my feelings on how it would affect neutral.

I don't want it at all either honestly, I just would rather have it work THAT way if it's going to be included.

For a more in depth answer:

I like the way Skullgirls works currently. The game is designed so all characters have tools and have options they can use with the space that the neutral in the game is played in. The neutral in that space is interesting, all characters have a lot of good options they can use in that space, and the game is well balanced as a result. Other versus games have problems where the game is played at high level at spaces and ranges that certain characters DON'T have the tools for at all and it invalidates a lot of characters. Skullgirls doesn't have this problem. Obviously I don't think adding a higher super jump to the game is going to give it this problem, but it has the potential to make certain characters stronger than other ones based on how they can utilize the new super jump height and that's something I'd just rather avoid.

I don't really think raising the ceiling for super jumps adds anything to the game, and it shifts the way the game plays pretty significantly because players are going to want to spend more time at super jump height now. I don't think the way the footsies in this game are played needs to be radically changed. The fact that super jump height isn't like MvC2 never bothered me, and I'm sure it didn't bother a lot of other people. I think the game is interesting and fun being played at the ranges its played at now, every character can excel and be competitively viable in those ranges, and I don't think it needs to be changed.

I know that's super general but: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

However the beta is for experiments, so I'm glad this change is something we get to play around with. Beta changes that are BIG changes are interesting and fun and make games worth playing for a long time. I think people complaining that this game is constantly getting huge changes in the beta is a bad thing are COMPLETELY missing the point.
 
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All I will say is that I just don't like the idea of having to relearn/reoptimize my combos over again for the..... third time?
 
After actually getting to play with it, I don't mind the air drift but the height is crazy.

With Beowulf my entire game plan has pretty much become, superump j.HP > drift to space it. You can just get way too high, of course there are anti air assists to stop this to an extent but superjump seems like a bit of a catch all response in a lot of situations especially at neutral.

I wouldn't mind trying with a shorter superjump, perhaps between this and retail but I'm actually leaning more towards retail height now.

EDIT:
As for the other changes,

the assist change I like, but I don't often play DP assists so take my bias into account. I like them being a bit less powerful as a get off me without completely removing their neutral/pressure use.

The reversal change I like, in every situation except pushblock guard cancelling. PBGC is already difficult enough to time with different amounts of blockstop, but would an exception be difficult/just not a good idea?
 
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Looking back at the matches I played earlier tonight....
I think I like the ability to change my horizontal movement during a super jump more than the new super jump height. Though I can't imagine I'd get much use out of that at the old super jump height.
 
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OK I'll finally post my full, complete thoughts here.

I don't actually see anything wrong with superjump as a neutral tool, or with combos being naturally shorter as a result. I think it's neat!

But my actual problem with the whole thing is that years of training and matchup experience are basically made almost null with the change. If there is a SG2, and I hope there is, I would not mind the neutral with the super jump and the shorter combos, because it's a new game. I'll spend years playing it as well and I'll adapt. It will be a part of the mechanics of the new game, be an integral part of the neutral for the game and we'll all play it and joke about how Skullgirls is dead like is customary.

But right NOW, I don't want it because it feels inadequate and out of line with what the meta has been for the past two and a half years.

That's my only problem with it; that it's too different for a game that has evolved to the point it has. And when I first saw it, that was my biggest concern, which I've confirmed today.

I hope it made sense.
 
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Mr Peck said:
lN5FJrz.jpg


Are you serious? This is the first active frame of Eliza s.MP. What more do you want?

Edit: Sorry for being a jerk about it there, but that normal is seriously good. It's possibly the best anti-air normal in the game. Just try and time it so your opponent is in that big red area during the first active frame, and good things will happen.
I must be the only person who likes doing s.MP xx Dive underneath incoming characters.

Good luck blocking the one button left right mixup.
 
Mike_Z said:
@everyone who doesn't like superjumps so far
Is it because of neutral / how they feel, or because of combos?

My biggest issue with it so far is how it effects combos.

Some characters like Fortune can get away with not having to launch at all so it doesn't impact her too much, but this really messes with characters like Peacock and Cerebella. Peacock had a lot of re-jump combos which are more or less impossible or not worth doing now and Cerebella's c.MK is hindered by the change a lot. Would be nice if at the very least mini-launchers had their old super jump properties. Ex. Cerebella c.MK, Filia/Fukua c.Mp, BigBand MK, and so on.

Then you got stuff like Filia's j.LK/j.LP > j.MP > j.MK > HK hairball > dash cancel being way harder for her to actually land back on the ground.

As far as neutral goes. I've only played a few matches against players and nothing seems too radically different outside of just feeling weird getting that sudden acceleration and height that I'm not used to.

Also peacock attacking with j.Mk from super high up is kind of hilarious.

Also also I think the assist incoming change from 2f > 4f is unneeded.
 
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guitalex2007 said:
I must be the only person who likes doing s.MP xx Dive underneath incoming characters.

Good luck blocking the one button left right mixup.
Man can anyone block that mix up?
I can. I can block that mix up.


Yo just finished doing training mode stuff and playing some matches. I hate the neutral!
 
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dekillsage said:
Man can anyone block that mix up?
I can. I can block that mix up.
We_Can_Do_It!.jpg
On my end, the neutral is something I could get used to, but losing pretty much every combo route is a pain.
 
miss out one week and the changes feel like you slept a year.

its a very interesting change. just to keep it short and simple

pro:
something old is new again, i like the "floaty"ness feel to it. was used to all the old vs games so im ok with it.
new combos, already having fun with fairly new unoptimized routes
changed everything

cons:
changed pace again, though cant say its a complete con, i dunno
new combos, its like learning the game all over again. going to take some time again to get used to it.
combos definitely feel much shorter (at the moment)

overall:
I like it cant say anything negative about it, only played it for about 30mins. It feels familiar, but at the same time all my combos need to be altered for the worse/ better maybe. It's by no means something we cant adapt to. at this point we should all be able to think outside the box for new routes. Yea, it means more work into the combo crafting but heck isnt that what makes this fun? yes? right? im having more fun just goofing off in training trying to find stuff. i guess this changes not much for me. im used to changes at this point.
 
Also for the other beta changes

I don't think making assists vulnerable for 4frames is all that great. Kinda makes it a bit too easy to beat out assists I feel.

I also don't think decreasing the reversal window on wake ups is good either. In the beta when your opponent has undizzy their reversal supers are already post flash blockable, and hard knockdowns are super godlike even with the window for wake up reversals being 4f.

If someone wants to wake up dp they should be allowed to take that risk without it being extra hard imo. And if someone wants to wake up super they risk me just blocking because I pressed nothing and called my assist or something and getting hit by a counter hit punish.
 
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dekillsage said:
Also for the other beta changes

I don't think making assists vulnerable for 4frames is all that great. Kinda makes it a bit too easy to beat out assists I feel.
I second this. Back in the Vanilla and SDE days I always thought 2f was way too short a window. Now that the game has progressed and people are doing a better job of dealing with assist calls, I think that 4f is too large of a window and that 2f is just right.
 
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People are doing a better job of dealing with assist calls?
 
Tomo009 said:
The reversal change I like, in every situation except pushblock guard cancelling. PBGC is already difficult enough to time with different amounts of blockstop, but would an exception be difficult/just not a good idea?
PBGC did not change. The reversal window was previously 2f in all cases except after hitstun/ground tech/wakeup where it was 4f. Now it is 2f in those places as well, which makes mashing super less good. I don't really think it makes it harder enough to reversal to revert it.

I agree with 4f vulnerable on assist calls being too long, it's SO easy to hit assists now.

Dolfinh said:
Is there any chance we can have air throws stop height momentum like landing a hit does? At least for the sake of experimenting?
They should already do this, if they don't it's a bug.
 
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2f vuln for assists sounds too short for me still, 4f sounds too long though. I propose 3.
It probably doesn't make much of a difference, but the number is nicer, and it's just 1f more instead of twice as many frames!

I hate the idea of making the reversal window shorter; if I read that my opponent is going to attack, why should I ever be unable to hit them for it?
I really don't see any advantage whatsoever in making reversals harder (other than "people who blindly autopilot their pressure and mixup strings sometimes get hits they don't deserve, and complain less about mashers", which isn't actually a reason)?
I'd rather have it be 4f everywhere.

Does the Daisy Pusher change mean the old experiment is reverted, or are both now active (Opponent can't tag ever, and if they were in an attack, they can't do anything?)

IF the SJ experiment gets removed, can we try the floaty movement after SJs anyway? As in, have the old height for SJ but still allow people to move a bit during them. I like that part, makes SJs more interesting (regardless of the height change, which I can't really judge aside from "I don't like not seeing my opponent").
Also, apparently the midair movement applies during air combos? Not sure how to read that comment by sage. I'd *really* dislike if [launch > 4airstring (to charge during it) > land, chargemove] didn't work anymore because my character floats backwards midcombo.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Does the Daisy Pusher change mean the old experiment is reverted, or are both now active (Opponent can't tag ever, and if they were in an attack, they can't do anything?)
Only tags are stopped, everything else is allowed like regular.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
Also, apparently the midair movement applies during air combos? Not sure how to read that comment by sage. I'd *really* dislike if [launch > 4airstring (to charge during it) > land, chargemove] didn't work anymore because my character floats backwards midcombo.

Yeah, that's what happens.
 
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guitalex2007 said:
OK I'll finally post my full, complete thoughts here.

I don't actually see anything wrong with superjump as a neutral tool, or with combos being naturally shorter as a result. I think it's neat!

But my actual problem with the whole thing is that years of training and matchup experience are basically made almost null with the change. If there is a SG2, and I hope there is, I would not mind the neutral with the super jump and the shorter combos, because it's a new game. I'll spend years playing it as well and I'll adapt. It will be a part of the mechanics of the new game, be an integral part of the neutral for the game and we'll all play it and joke about how Skullgirls is dead like is customary.

But right NOW, I don't want it because it feels inadequate and out of line with what the meta has been for the past two and a half years.

That's my only problem with it; that it's too different for a game that has evolved to the point it has. And when I first saw it, that was my biggest concern, which I've confirmed today.

I hope it made sense.
I agree with this post and then I don't agree with this post, I'm conflicted standing on both sides of the issue.

Honestly I'm loving the new super jump, but I feel like a more appropriate time for this to come out is when all the characters are released? It would feel almost like skullgirls 2 in a way; since the game would be completely fresh with new neutral game, combo routes, and resets.

On the flip side of that, the skullgirls meta has changed so much since vanilla anyway (reduced combos, undizzy) that this could just become a new addition to the skullgirls mechanics and further change the skullgirls meta.

I was an active player during MDE and SDE but MDE was my favorite version of skullgirls. After SDE came out, I didn't like the system changes and I eventually stopped playing skullgirls. I didn't like what skullgirls had evolved to, my old gameplan in MDE (I played filia/bella) was to mixup the opponent and build meter with my point character until I had 3 bars, then perform a dhc touch of death combo, tag back to my point character and do it again. I wanted to play the game my way but I no longer could. Especially with bella seemingly getting nerfed in every future revision; I felt like I didn't have a voice regarding all the changes. I then decided to wait until beowulf was on the horizon of being made which is what caused me to start playing the game again a few months ago.

Now why do I like the super jump change? It makes everything new and fresh. I already came up with new combo routes for the 3 characters I play as well. Combos are shorter and combos feel really unique per character, you have characters maximizing their ground based chains as well as their air based chains. Set plays / resets will be a completely new experience as players come up with new ways to open up their opponents. The neutral game will change drastically as well now that everyone has great vertical options. The only thing I want fixed are mini launchers, which have already been discussed and appears will be fixed, I want my bella's cr.MK jump height to be back to normal. That way she still has a combo route after an otg is used up.
 
Rejump combos are a pain
It feels like you're fighting the game trying to get back to the ground

In other training mode observations:
TK inputs are weird/less useful because you perform the special move much higher up from the ground (Fortunes TK axekick whiffs on standing opponents now)
It is impossible to charge back while doing an air chain since that causes you to nudge backwards

I will play a bit to see what happened with the neutral, but after some initial thorough-ish training mode science it sure feels like this breaks more stuff than it adds, in terms of combos/resets:

One extremely useful trick for rejump combos was the ability to wait after a launcher before pressing a button, so you would lose some of your momentum and be able to land much earlier than the opponent. Now waiting after a launcher gets you nothing, and being able to slightly nudge your momentum side-to-side seems to have very limited applications here as well.

Obviously I'm looking at this from the perspective of what I already know, and what I want to do (Why wouldn't I!), but why should an air mobility "improvement" make air combos harder to perform?
 
Feels like I'm ignoring everything on the ground. Not a fan, that's just too good.
 
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Skullgirls Beta Patch Notes - 12/22
DECEMBER 22 - MIKEZ
Versus-Style Superjumps #2, a bit more Skullgirlsish
- Superjumps are now only slightly higher than Real Game superjumps (10% instead of 55%). Connecting an attack still reduces your upward velocity a bit.
- Launcher heights returned to normal. Launchers still launch every character the same height regardless of weight (this is probably staying even if superjumps don't, it's a good fix).
- Joystick still gives air control during superjumps. Backward acceleration from Back is smaller, and is halved once an attack has connected during the jump.
- Painwheel's flight adjusted for this test, slower than the last one. Compared to the Real Game: 1/2 pixel per frame faster fwd, 4 pixels/frame faster upward, 2 pixels/frame faster backward, downward is unchanged. Still possible to catch her going upward by superjumping.

Beta Experiments
- Assist vulnerable frames before attacking 4f->3f. 4f was too much and I think this might still be too long, but experiments!
 
I'm not the serious SG player and I didn't post here for a while but I'm all for the new super jump.
It's a great feeling to execute it and to move around. It's fun to do and if it shortens combos I'm fine with this as I think they are still way too long as they are. Also I think it fits Skullgirls over the top aspect very well.

I don't play competitively so take into account that before using the game for having fun with strategies and stuff like that, I play it to get a good feeling and good sensations.

Edit : just downloaded the update that reduces the height. I prefered the first one, it was funnier. :(
 
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I appreciate the feedback, @TheBlackHombre but I must say
TheBlackHombre said:
my old gameplan in MDE (I played filia/bella) was to mixup the opponent and build meter with my point character until I had 3 bars, then perform a dhc touch of death combo, tag back to my point character and do it again. I wanted to play the game my way but I no longer could.
I realize you hate it but I feel like I've done my job, then.
 
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Hmmm... Since my internet is wonky and my connect to people is straight ass right now (170 kb/sec no fucking lie)... I cant take these changes up against people.

I tend to go by my gut feeling on things though and my feelings after the first change were that the superjump was to high. Now however it feels to low... Low enough that i couldnt readily feel the difference, so i had to load up retail to see the difference:

Retail for pw:

Regular jump is 2 squares high.
Super jump is 3 squares high.

First superjump beta:

Superjump was 5 squares high.

The current beta superjump:

3.5 squares high.

My cant test this against anyone and going off of gut feelings is that if a more marvel style is wanted, then perhaps something higher than 3.5 all the way up to 4.5 squares could be tried.

However i am not personally opposed to the new superjump height as it is.. Its still a height buff over the retail superjump. Though I'm happy with retail superjump as well. I'm just glad that the 5 square superjump is gone tbh. I didnt even want to experiment with that superjump, thats how much i wasnt feeling it from the start.

Anywho, yeah, these changes are fun to explore.
 
Well new update.

Since I never got a chance to try the old one in a real match I can't really talk about it very much but most of my old combos work again now with some slight adjustments on big band and trying to remember not to try to charge back during bella's j.LP mash (they no longer fall out of the j.LP xx j.HP but you're too far to finish the combo when you land).

My initial reaction is that this is less like marvel super jumps and more like Skullgirls so I'm happy about that. I was never a fan of Marvel super jumps. At the same time the extra super jump height probably lets you get around projectiles and assists a little better which is cool.
 
This new experiment seems to support most old combos/setups while adding a lot of interesting possibilities for fine-tuning spacing and momentum
Being able to link backwards air normals without falling away from the opponent is pretty rad
I'll see about finding some way too ambiguous crossups or something, I bet that's possible now for better or worse
 
IsaVulpes said:
I hate the idea of making the reversal window shorter; if I read that my opponent is going to attack, why should I ever be unable to hit them for it?
I really don't see any advantage whatsoever in making reversals harder (other than "people who blindly autopilot their pressure and mixup strings sometimes get hits they don't deserve, and complain less about mashers", which isn't actually a reason)?
I'd rather have it be 4f everywhere.
I agree with all of this. Well mostly. Honestly I'd rather have the window be 8f everywhere, but failing that I will settle for 4f. tbh I'm probably just not going to play anymore beta until this experiment isn't in there anymore cause I straight up cannot tolerate playing the game like this.
guitalex2007 said:
I must be the only person who likes doing s.MP xx Dive underneath incoming characters.

Good luck blocking the one button left right mixup.
I do that all the time, it's amazing. I think it's one of the best incoming mixups in the game, and other Eliza players such as @Natezer would do well to make use of this mixup.
 
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mcpeanuts said:
I agree with all of this. Well mostly. Honestly I'd rather have the window be 8f everywhere, but failing that I will settle for 4f. tbh I'm probably just not going to play anymore beta until this experiment isn't in there anymore cause I straight up cannot tolerate playing the game like this.

Did you try the most recent update from today? Sumperjumps went from 55% higher to 10% higher.

About reversal windows - My feelings are that reversal windows for 'getting up off the ground' can be as lenient as you want really. Could be 50 frames for all I care. Its a 'natural' spot to mash something so people are expecting it and the player on the floor should be able to do a wakeup DP if they want to without any hassle, IMO.

The problem with easy reversal windows only really happens with doing reversals out of blockstun/hitstun (and I guess PBGC too in this game). If you make the reversal window for doing a reversal from blockstun too wide the game can become really mashy with people doing reversals in the middle of blockstrings all the damn time (see, XBL level SF4 play).

If it were my decision I'd put wakeup reversal buffer at 8 frames for wakeup moves and 2 frames for reversals coming out of block/hit stun. I think that's "as easy as it can be without being detrimental to the game" which seems to be in line with how other stuff in SG is designed.
 
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Jason said:
with people doing reversals in the middle of blockstrings all the damn time
with KK now being a valid pushblock input, I don't see how that could be too easy for any char.
And PBGC is supposed to beat long blockstrings anyway
And enough people have trouble doing it already
And I think baiting is still a thing

Or maybe I'm missing something...
 
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Jason said:
Did you try the most recent update from today? Sumperjumps went from 55% higher to 10% higher.
No, which is why I didn't comment on super jumps; anything I would have said about them is already out of date. I don't think the reversal window changed between today and yesterday, did it? I didn't see that in the notes.
 
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