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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Mike_Z said:
Gotta fill those six buttons! :^P I try, but sometimes there are other normals that fill every niche.
Val s.MK is a reversal-safe meaty though.

.
How do I set this up if I may ask? Pillar, Para level 3, and dynamo dont seem to be meatied by it on first check unless its a really specific timing thing
 
Mike_Z said:
You have successfully convinced me to unsubscribe from this thread, and not put up the build now either.
Congratulations, you all deserve a high-five. My enthusiasm for finishing SG is greatly diminished.
Quit being such a drama queen.
 
You should be ecstatic that people debate the mechanics and elements in Skullgirls so enthusiastically, instead of cowering like the puppy that couldn't wait to go outside. It's the bad fighting games that lack any discussion whatsoever. We're not grading you for your mistakes.

Also, this pity-party you keep throwing? Nobody's attending.
 
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Mike_Z said:
@Dreamepitaph @IsaVulpes et al
You have successfully convinced me to unsubscribe from this thread, and not put up the build now either.
Congratulations, you all deserve a high-five. My enthusiasm for finishing SG is greatly diminished.

Please don´t "punish" the rest of SG community just for a few people who doesn´t agree with some things in the game, here and China every people complain about something because...they can.

In the end of the day you take/ made the finals decision if something needs to be fixed/ buffed/ nerfed, etc. this is your game, i know you (and L0 guys) listen the community, in the end of the day all of this are suggetions, not orders.
 
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keninblack said:
Whats the reason behind letting Beowulf do Wulf Blitzer/other actions? After his anti air grab super?

My guess is part of the rational is 'Heavenly Potemkin Buster'.
 
cloudKing211 said:
Online lobby

I don't think that's it.

Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but it looks like Sek does j.mp x2 into neutral jump. The throw window is pretty fucking tiny. There is a definitely an exploitable gap, sure... but it isn't really a great option.

Not to mention that if Sek had hit s.hp after j.mp, a throw is going to get counter hit in most cases... so now the gamble turned into even more damage than a normal combo.

Of course, that's if the Sek's spacing is off (as it was in Sage's link). Why would you ever go into throw range? Truly...

Here's a video showing why I don't think you should ever touch the throw button vs Sek.


Not to mention that we speak of Sek as if she's the only character in the game that isn't backed up by an assist.

I'm not even speaking about relative power levels here, I'm just saying this "throw her" solution is wrong.
 
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Dhoppler said:
That's enough about spooky skeletons. Let's step aboard the AROOO train!!

Beowulf is really good. But the more I think about him the more I narrow down my complaints and only settle on Heavy Hurting Hurl being + on block. I feel like that's not ok. It's weakness is you can throw the start up, but I don't think that justifies it.

Thoughts? Are there bigger concerns? Can anybody other than sage play him well?

I think it's fine. In addition to being able to grab him because its not throw invincible, you can do things like this and just straight up avoid it. You could also always reset him in the air, use an armor assist, etc.

It also leaves him without the chair and makes playing neutral a lot more difficult, so it being +1 on block isn't really the end of the world I feel.

And yes other play him well. My beowulf is very basic lol

edit: I4got I can't link a video and expect it to have a time stamp. fixed
 
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this is why I'm afraid to post anything. Is there some sort of unspoken rule that we aren't supposed to talk about balance? I'm not a top player but I play a lot and I'm planning on playing SG for a long long time, and I'd like it to be the best game possible.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
If the sekhmet player can space to make sekhmet safe, you can space to make her unsafe.

Public Service Announcement: Neutral game exists.

Good call. Hold foward vs Sek.

Plus, as I showed in the video, even at point blank range within throw range (Sek's weakness) you are always taking a gamble touching a button.

The real PSA should be... run the fuck away and pushblock (so you can run away more) when you see Sek and let all of Eliza's meter drain.
 
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@Mike_Z You're seriously punishing the majority of your fanbase because someone said something stupid and then wouldn't listen to you? I know you have been doing an extreme about of work for years now and bullshit can really push on that stress, but this isn't right. And no, a lot of what has happened with your time on this game hasn't been fair either, but this is kind of shitting on your fans.
 
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dekillsage said:
I think it's fine. In addition to being able to grab him because its not throw invincible, you can do things like this and just straight up avoid it. You could also always reset him in the air, use an armor assist, etc.

It also leaves him without the chair and makes playing neutral a lot more difficult, so it being +1 on block isn't really the end of the world I feel.
Hurting Hurl is very comparable to Fortune Headroll (safe reversal, throw vulnerable, makes you 'switch stances', allows combos on hit, long startup, ..)
- Headroll has the upside that it sits on 5f jab Fortune who has another meterless Reversal option
- Headroll has the downside that it is exceptionally easy to avoid, while Hurting Hurl actually hits people
- Hurting Hurl has the bonus trick of Hurl xx AA Super to get out of sticky situations for 1 meter

Headroll used to be +1 on block and is now -2
Hurting Hurl could really use the same treatment

Safe is ok; it *is* a "one time use" kinda thing and can be thrown.
But a meterless reversal that gives you pressure (as it puts you at frame advantage) if it got blocked sounds as silly here to me as it did with Headroll in the past
 
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Can I just say that I'm glad none of the Fortune buffs were reverted? It's a much more interesting character now.

Also was there ever an answer as to how bursts would work interact with decap attack before the change that allowed the opponent to hit the head out of decap attack? I'm just really curious why the the head would still do something when the burst would hit decap attack but then go into cooldown mid attack before the change.

I hope that made sense.
 
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Spencer said:
Good call. Hold foward vs Sek.

Plus, as I showed in the video, even at point blank range within throw range (Sek's weakness) you are always taking a gamble touching a button.

The real PSA should be... run the fuck away and pushblock (so you can run away more) when you see Sek and let all of Eliza's meter drain.

Why not hold forward vs sekh for just until Sekh's startup frames are over then block? Make a read and be brave, if it will get you the hit and therefore probably win you the game.

A safe thing to do is if you see sekh AXE, hold upback. If she does nothing you get out and run away. If she does YOUR HEAD you stay in preblock and stay on the ground and then you punish with snapback at range or throw at point blank.
 
@Spencer, just gunna say your video isn't that good.

For one it doesn't emulate what @cloudKing211 was going in the clip at all. He had chicken blocked j.M and 5H, something you had not attempted in any of your examples, and is something that gives you a FAR easier throw punish on sekh (I assume this is why @b0nk replied as he did.)

There's also the fact that you should never try to throw/punish her in-between j.M > 5H if you're grounded unless you can properly time a punish in the few neutral frames you have (1f?) between the hits (e.g. daisy is one, pw lvl 3 gets you out safe, fukua lvl3)

The last example I'm not quite sure what you're trying to show besides "don't throw at a range that it'll clearly whiff."

There's a lot of things that people could do versus Sekh that could make things easier than "runaway forever" but the community has to step it up and try things.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
IAD jMK(blocked) xx M.Sekh + Squig cHP call / IAD jMK(blocked) xx M.Sekh, Squiq cHP call + cL/jM/sH; if blocked recall while they are locked down
Do mixups, see assist come in, reaction xx M.Sekh and deal half life damage to their assist rather than getting DPd out of IAD jHP
- Two very very basic uses, neither of which I would rate as "Sekh can do very little"

"Once you avoid the low" .. which one just magically does 100% of the time?

Sekhmet costs a lot less meter than what a plethora of other characters use to "safeishly" land hits on opponents (Bypass-Knives, Sing SBO, Catheads, Sniper, ..)

"Sekhmet costs like half a bar to do two mixups that may cost the opponent a character.. btw if you want to counter her, you can always just spend a full meter on 0 damage" stays a riot btw

- I would be a lot happier with Sekhmet if the initial call cost a nudge more meter, so mixups / anti-AAs (suspect the opponent goes for smth that would hit you out of jMK, Sekh M instead) / assist punishes / etc followed by "Sekhcall into assist+recall" at least put a dent on your resources
- Other option: Sekhmet call costs meter at the beginning of startup, not when Sekh is coming out. This would mean 1) getting CHd out of it makes you lose out on bar (more risk!) and 2) a watchful opponent can see the meter disappearing, recognize that Sekh is going to appear soon, and do whatever against it (block)

And yeah, Eliza has a good bunch of other shit, but at least that is interesting to play against.. Sekhmet is boredom incarnate


Though I don't at this time have any specific problems with Eliza or sek. I agree with this post.

Mostly though I just don't agree with SnapBack being a proper punish and here's why:

1. Eliza might be on low health. If she is, you don't want to snap her out as that gives her the ability to recover red life albeit less life than she had, you are actually GIVING her extra life by snapping her out in many circumstances.

2. Snap does no damage and snaps in a presumably full health character... To whit, you aren't solving the problem, just avoiding it for the time being. And maybe that's enough, but it doesn't feel like it to me.

3. not all snaps were made the same. Painwheels snap is low and has good range but wiffs airborn characters easily. Sek is very likely to be airborn when attempting to snap her. Bella's snap on the other hand hits very high in the air, but lacks a bit of horizontal range. These might or might not be huge things but I think there is a significance there.

4. Snaps being 12 frame startup still means they are relatively slow to come out and snapping sek on reaction to sek armoring through something is going to be a rather rare punish in my mind (rightly so, it shouldn't be easy to snap sek in this way IMHO)

I could see the snap argument being a good one if it treated Eliza as if she were last character, even when she's not. This would mean that snaps would give full combo on sek, but the starter would use up oth and do no damage for a meter. Seems like a good dartboard suggestion. But even if it IS a good suggestion, I don't think mike would ever do it because it creates a special circumstance and mike tries like hell to avoid those like the plague.

At which point I would say something such as... Why not buff snaps to give otg against ALL armor attacks? Then snaps would actually be a decent way to punish armor. Unlike sweeps that give no combo in many respects (except "sweep like" attacks such as cilia slide).


But yeah probably a shitty idea on multiple counts. I don't put to much thought into these things anymore because my give a fuck has considerably dwindled.

Having said that @Spencer what's the problem with just push locking sek away and then laughing at all that meter she's losing while you run?

It's what I've ALWAYS done to sek and its my flowchart way of dealing with anything I deem to be oppressive, priority wise, from any character. It does get me frame trapped and stuff... But I digress... 2 player game and all.

In fact, does sek have any REAL ways to counter pbgc into jump/super jump back (aka the mvc2 counter to everything) off the top of my head, with sek having no airthrow said and only one low, it would be an extremely easy way of dealing with sek in a very braindead way.

Also, when I defend against sek, yeah I usually just jump away and laugh, but about 20% of the time I go for a throw. Gotta mixup stuff ya know?


If any of this is completely dumb. Forgive me. I don't play THAT much anymore and have a total of 700 games played since the replay saver went up.
 
I think the problem is the risk vs reward. Eliza's not a low damage character. If you get hit by her (a CH no less), it's going to fucking hurt. Hell, in some cases... that's a dead character or game over.

If Sek's nonsense led to only a few thousand damage, then absolutely... gamble away. But that's not the case. If you fuck up... you just gave the game away.

But you know what Sek is prone to? Pushblock and running away. She doesn't have a real answer for it and it costs her resources... so why not take the easy route instead of gambling the entire match to prove that occasionally you can throw Sek? Which means the safe (and smart) route vs Eliza just makes the game that much more boring.

@Dime_x

Nothing. That's exactly what I'm advocating for. I'm just saying this "vulnerable to throws" thing that's going around is not right.

Edited to add: No, she doesn't have a reliable counter vs PBGC except that a lot of supers are worthless vs her. Thresher is fantastic vs Eliza... but a pbgc into DC is just going to get you hit. Not worth it unless it will kill her.
 
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Spencer said:
@Dime_x

Nothing. That's exactly what I'm advocating for. I'm just saying this "vulnerable to throws" thing that's going around is not right.

Edited to add: No, she doesn't have a reliable counter vs PBGC except that a lot of supers are worthless vs her. Thresher is fantastic vs Eliza... but a pbgc into DC is just going to get you hit. Not worth it unless it will kill her.


I think the vulnerability to throws thing is being overblown considerably. But that it isn't being explained correctly. You can't ALWAYS punish via throw of course. But when the sek makes a mistake in their spacing you can.

Making sek have to guess between being pushblocked most of the time or being thrown as a mixup, feels like a very solid defense against her.

Maybe it's perspective. Think of it like this:

You block sek. Now you can punish her by running away and watching her bleed meter. Or you can throw her if. She's close enough or she thinks you will run away and she wants to chase you. If she sees your pushblock strat and immediately recalls to avoid unnecessary meter loss, then she can be said to also be being predictable and at that point you can as a read or as a mixup, go and try to camp the anchor.


So, though this is complete theory fighter as far as the anchor is concerned, you have a basic 3 way mixup when blocking sek:

Run away.
Throw.
Go camp the anchor.

None are all day punishes. But IMHO, if sek doesn't hit you and then comes out with no damage done to you... Sek loses. And 2 of those options directly do damage to sek calls, so sek loses BIGTIME. And finally, I kinda laugh when I get hit by sek nowadays. It's usually at a cost to a huge amount of meter to continue to hit me for less than (butchers blade starter) or slightly above average damage (high or low starter) at the end of the day, and lots of meter down.


The only problem I ever really had with Eliza was her jump attack priority in the beta before she had final hurtboxes, and her level 3 doing what is in my mind waaay to much damage all around but especially at full scaling.
 
Easy solution: since sekmet can't call assist during block string. just super jump to the anchor then crouch block to make the opponent go high and then stand block and pushblock and wait.

if you're not confident in grabbing her then don't grab her.
 
Dime_x said:
4. Snaps being 12 frame startup still means they are relatively slow to come out and snapping sek on reaction to sek armoring through something is going to be a rather rare punish in my mind (rightly so, it shouldn't be easy to snap sek in this way IMHO)

I think if Sek does a move that's -9 on block like s.H she can't possibly avoid a reversal snapback because she's too minus. Pressing buttons can't CH the snapback and even though she recovers in time to return to neutral.... she still can't block it even if it isn't technically a "punish", she can't move fast enough to get out of the way either.
 
Addressing no one in particular across the last few pages...

I'd like to remind everyone that this is the discussion thread for the Endless Beta and the changes being tested in it, not the "bother the developers about what you perceive to be a balance issue" thread, or the "theory fight with others until you reach an agreement on what hypothetical nerf/buff to bother Mike about" thread.

By all means, feel free to point out legitimate issues or suggest quality of life improvements, but keep in mind that this thread isn't a complaint inbox for things unrelated to the beta.
 
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Jason said:
I think if Sek does a move that's -9 on block like s.H she can't possibly avoid a reversal snapback because she's too minus. Pressing buttons can't CH the snapback and even though she recovers in time to return to neutral.... she still can't block it even if it isn't technically a "punish", she can't move fast enough to get out of the way either.


Certainly. But it's reacting to the -9 that is the real world problem. Sek has moves that look much alike that either have different properties or you simply don't know if she will cancel them or late cancel them or just let them rock.


Perfect quintessential SG example is filias slide. It's normally very minus on block. But since it can be canceled at anytime during its recovery... It's actually NEVER minus since filia can cancel it into hairball for a frame trap or updo for a frame trap or one of her supers for a frame trap. Sek functions this way as well iirc.


The way I learned to deal with filia cheese was to never go for punishes against her "minus" on block moves. I just push her away and engineer a situation that leads to me to a hit on offense or defense. But I'm wary of her frame traps In general and the on,y way I ever usually go offensive against them is via armor or something.


So yeah, I still think the supposition that sek is punishable, is in many respects not adequately explained correctly.

Could be wrong but yeah, I generally don't know exactly where to punish her which is why I just flowchart pushblock against her in most circumstances.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
just to clarify. the moment filia does ringlet psyche you can press buttons and she either gets hit or has to block.

Is this directed to me?
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Yes. Carry on tho.
Carrying on... But I never said anything about ringlet... At all. So... Yeah carrying on.
 
Mike_Z said:
which it is with everyone except PW
M4tpGXW.jpg
 
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Chair toss is fine. Yes it's +1. Yes there is a lot of counterplay. Yes it requires beowulf to go into a state where his neutral is undeniably weaker.

That's why I think it's fine.
 
I actually love pressuring chairless Beowulf. So much free chip damage.
 
One thing I've always wondered about is why do some supers end in the middle if the character dies and why do some carry on, like Fortune CSF will kill in the middle but also drop the opponent's character, which is kind of annoying as sometimes it makes you go through the other character and lose positioning. Can we try an experiment where all supers, cinematic or not, will only kill you at the very last hit and not the middle?
 
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There are some corner case situations with DHCs. I get plenty of kills by doing SBO into Lady of Slaughter where one of the SBO hits will kill while sekhmet is going nuts. Sometimes it'll finish the LoS animation, sometimes sek will stop early. It's actually preferable for me to have the LoS end early, as that way it's easier to recall and set up an incoming mixup.
 
I'm pretty sure I remember Mike explaining somewhere that non-cinematic supers can kill in the middle because non-cinematic supers are a series of hits instead of a built-in follow-up, so it would be possible for the victim to fall out of the super before the last hit and survive if the super doesn't connect perfectly.
 
Attention: EVERYBODY​

There are character forums for you to talk about matchups and strats. Go to the Eliza forum and talk about fighting her and tips, go to the Beowulf forum, hit new thread and make threads to talk about him and dealing with his moves.

There have been 0 beta updates since the most recent retail patch. That does not mean use the thread to discuss other things to pass the time, use the gameplay thread in the gameplay forums. Complain about cheap shit in there or correct characters forum.
 
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