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Street Fighter V

Not dying to chip damage is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard of.

And that type of gameplay will become more and more prevalent in SFV if it stays the way it currently is.
 
dekillsage said:
UNIEL's kinda different though. Even if this is kinda dumb I think its a lot dumber if Carmine actually killed someone with chip damage .-.
I kinda agree, that'd be a new level of laming it out.
 
Could be misinformed but I believe you could, at the very least, kill with critical art chip.
 
dekillsage said:
UNIEL's kinda different though. Even if this is kinda dumb I think its a lot dumber if Carmine actually killed someone with chip damage .-.
You die from chip in many other games with way more useful projectiles, like MvC2.
The point is, if you can't die from chip then as long as you can block you have essentially infinite health but only RIGHT before you die.
It makes zoning incredibly weak, but again, only RIGHT before you die...which is the important time.

GG/BB lets you control this by spending meter for Faultless Defense.

I could see "You can't die from chip damage from normals or specials, but EXs/supers can kill you". But that kinda has the same problem, just in a smaller subset of the space.
 
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I don't think not dying from chip damage is dumb at all

It prevents a lot of really stupid shit (the game being over 2 seconds before its really over cus you get hard KDd and see a fireball incoming, dash dash DP becoming legit, there's more), and it's a neat unobtrusive pseudo comeback mechanic that actually makes no-health comebacks a possible thing

Yeah one guy being on 0.1 HP and then letting himself get chipped and then both players wait until it's a draw is silly as well, but
1) How often will this happen (espec in SFV) ladida
2) Isn't this a deserved draw? I don't mind draws.. if both players are content with that, what's the matter really
3) This is easily preventable by a variety of adjustments (the simplest being "if both players are on 0 HP, the one who landed there 2nd wins the game")

+ In a game where normals deal chip, dying from chip is perhaps a bit .. questionable??
You could of course make it so only Specials/Supers cause chipdeath, but still/again, I don't mind not dying from chip at all

Yeah it weakens zoners, so.. you buff them with this in mind, problem solved? Shrug
 
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tbh, a lot of 3D fighters have mechanics that don't allow dying from chip damage...
I can see someone trying to work that kind of thing into 2D, and possibly make it work.
 
Yeah you can chip people out with supers. Thing is there was a part of the stream where Daigo tried to do c.mk xx Shinku, but the other guy alpha countered/V reversal'd thru the super.
 
Mike_Z said:
You die from chip in many other games with way more useful projectiles, like MvC2.
The point is, if you can't die from chip then as long as you can block you have essentially infinite health but only RIGHT before you die.
It makes zoning incredibly weak, but again, only RIGHT before you die...which is the important time.

GG/BB lets you control this by spending meter for Faultless Defense.

I could see "You can't die from chip damage from normals or specials, but EXs/supers can kill you". But that kinda has the same problem, just in a smaller subset of the space.

I don't agree.
 
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It's a terrible idea for MANY reasons. It could be made to work with more actual thought and balancing but in its current form in SF5 it is busted. To make a long story short it shouldn't be a universal mechanic nor should it have infinite time. At best it should only last a small amount of time once one has gotten to no life. It should be a character specific skill either as part of certain characters v triggers, or it should be there to balance characters that live off of chip damage via something such as:


"Peacock can't kill with item drop or argus or bomb chip, but bang x3 chip can kill"

or something along those lines. In the example I cited bang x3 chip doesn't do a whole lot of damage and it as a special is easy to evade in most situations, but it is cancelable from normals and has good speed to hit characters that put themselves into a bad situation such as landing in front of peacock with no health.


Things such as that is how the mechanic should be balanced if they really want it in the game in some forms but as a universal kluge it is clumsy and stupid.
 
Sotherius said:
I think chun and Ryu were the most similar to its previous iterations, so people didn't have the curiosity to play as them as they did with Nash, or Birdie, or Bison.

I wish chun li wasn't a charge character anymore, but besides, she looks awesome too, and her lightning legs are qcf motion, that is unique.

What you guys think about that?

I like that lightning legs are qcf now. Pianoing was damn annoying. Was probably the main reason why I dropped her in 4. Want that sweet ass punish combo? Well better hope sliding your fingers across all the buttons gets you that cancel in time. The rest of her moves being charge moves are alright with me.
 
IsaVulpes said:
I like how you say MANY reasons, then don't list a single one


Sorry. I've been having this argument on srk for the last 3 days. Feel free to check my posts on there if you want.
 
Mike_Z said:
I didn't say anything in my post that was opinion, I stated a bunch of facts, so I'm not sure what there is to disagree with. :^P

I don't agree that zoning becomes incredibly weak because you can't die from chip damage.
Zoning is not incredibly weak in Uniel just because you can't die from chip damage, even when your opponent is on their last pixel of health. I also don't care if marvel 2 had better projectiles because Uniel doesn't play anything like marvel 2. Saying stuff like that is like saying hey Skullgirls has really good 50/50's, but MKX has even better 50/50's. Does that really matter when talking about how good something is in a game?
 
dekillsage said:
I don't agree that zoning becomes incredibly weak because you can't die from chip damage.
It makes zoning unable to kill the other person, yes? Meaning, aside from timeout, to win a round the zoning character must rush down...the opposite of zoning. Zoning cannot be a complete gameplan, therefore.

Think about it differently - at all other times except when you're about to die, getting you to block something is a win for me. It costs you health and brings you that much closer to death. But when it would be the most useful, that particular option disappears from the list of things that are a win for me, because it no longer accomplishes anything. And if I do it up close it could even lose me the round, because you can punish most things on block.

Look at Ryu vs Honda. Ryu can throw fireballs all day, which Honda has to attempt to get around eventually, or lose the match. If Honda can [secure a life lead and then] just sit there and wait for Ryu to come to him, since Ryu MUST come to him to kill him, then the balance shifts greatly in Honda's favor. And sure, this fixes a particular imbalance for Honda in ST, but it then shifts the scales toward the character with the better close-up game. It makes full-on zoning incredibly much weaker - MORESO in an SF style game where the point of projectiles is to get you to move, even, than in something like UNiEL or MvC2 where the point of projectiles is to deal meaningful chip regardless of whether or not you move. Throwing a fireball at a low-health character in SF can often secure you the win because they have to avoid or deal with it, but if it can't kill them that's much less likely to happen.

Not being able to kill with chip increases the usefulness of turtling and defensive gameplay the closer someone is to dying. That's also not something generally desirable in design.
 
I'm on the fence about it. I hate the not all that uncommon cases that Isa mentioned. I also think it could be alleviated in the event of a life draw by giving the win to the person with the most white health. In that case, Carmine would have had to open up Nanase or lose.

There's also that feeling of having done everything right (at least for that block string) in which you effectively prevented them from opening you up on your last sliver of life and still lose because there's literally nothing you can do when they special cancel.

On the flip side, it could potentially change the way the game is played pretty significantly while at low health.

I guess if it goes or stays, I'm pretty fine with it either way.
 
Mike_Z said:
It makes zoning unable to kill the other person, yes? Meaning, aside from timeout, to win a round the zoning character must rush down...the opposite of zoning. Zoning cannot be a complete gameplan, therefore.

I'm personally on the fence of this "chip" thing, but...

If you are going for the win and the opponent is at 1 point of health and can't be chipped to death... why rush down when you can get the time over win? Make them work to get to you with your zoning. The strength of a zoner in this case is that they HAVE to try to hit you or lose by time out. This situation is still heavily in the zoner's favor because any little slip up could end the other player's life. The only reason that match you linked went to a draw is because Carmine uses up his own life bar. You wouldn't want to stay on the other side of the screen and hold downback the entire time against any other kind of zoning because they wouldn't use up their own life to do so.
 
Tell you what Mike the second the Beta is open. I'll go online test it out a whole bunch and if it's bad that you can't ship someone out then I'll send Capcom some info back their way asking to see if it could be changed. That is if Capcom likes to listen to people.
 
RemiKz said:
I'm personally on the fence of this "chip" thing, but...

If you are going for the win and the opponent is at 1 point of health and can't be chipped to death... why rush down when you can get the time over win? Make them work to get to you with your zoning. The strength of a zoner in this case is that they HAVE to try to hit you or lose by time out. This situation is still heavily in the zoner's favor because any little slip up could end the other player's life.
In that case why not just let the zoner end with chip and not waste anyone's time?
 
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Effay said:
In that case why not just let the zoner end with chip and not waste anyone's time?
Because this way the match isn't over until the last hit goes in. Gives the guy defending against the zoning from across the screen a fighting chances to actually pull through instead of being completely screwed with no hope.

Again, I'm kind of on the fence whether I like it or not, but I can see the argument on both sides.
 
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It matters how chip is done and the character is designed. If a zoner can zone you out and chip kill you, but is designed to leave less breathing room, then it isn't exactly fair to get stuck in a chip loop and get killed because of it. Note when I say that, I mean characters with a ton more zoner pressure than other characters which leave more room to dodge or move about the projectiles. Depending on how much pressure the character gives and the way the game plays should heavily affect whether chip kills. In a game like UNIEL, I feel it makes sense that chip doesn't kill, while in SF and SG, chip killing make sense due to the point and power of projectiles. It's all about the design and intention matching up.
 
mmmmhhh besides it looks like Zoning in this game is going to be even more useless cause most of the V-Skills in the current build are answers to projectiles. a Parry, a Absorb, a quick Hop that goes over dead zones, Spin Knuckle that passes thru projectiles, B-ba-banana?

the point is projectiles are not going to be spamable in the sense if players are being smart and are using their moves/ V-Skills like they would in 3rd Strike. And that's one thing I'm just going to say, the game is going to feel like playing 3rd Strike with smatterings of Alpha 3 at the speed of SF4. doesn't that sound fun? (idk i would like it to be a tad faster... in fact just give me a SF3 Third Strike Remake. mmmmmmmhhhh 3-D Q.)
 
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Any thoughts on the non-invincible backdashes? I dunno what to think of that. Won't that leave to little defensive options for the pressured? Or is it just another step to make players commit to their choice (like the removal of FADC DP's)? "Either block, tech or DP, no universal options".
 
Kawalorn said:
Any thoughts on the non-invincible backdashes? I dunno what to think of that. Won't that leave to little defensive options for the pressured? Or is it just another step to make players commit to their choice (like the removal of FADC DP's)? "Either block, tech or DP, no universal options".
Are they completely vulnerable, or are they e.g. airborne from frame 1 and therefore throw invincible? Either way, there are still other defensive options, you just don't have a catch-all get out of jail free card. Other games also do this (e.g. Yatagarasu).
 
They are supposed to be completely vulnerable.

But tbqh it won't change things up to much. The biggest use of invincibility on backdashes was on wakeup and even then it was usually option selected to kill them.

You could use them in pressure as well for certain characters but all in all it isn't a huge change.
 
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Outside of tech rolls, and heavy damage (which is every SF except SF4) I do not see how this plays like 3s at all. Which is fine, it just plays at least sorta like a REAL Street Fighter. Not anti airing gets you killed, whiff punishing and footsies is everything. I'm excited.

If it did end up playing like a watered down 3s that'd be fine with me though hahaha.
 
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Man, Charlie's gonna be in a dark mindset, really happy to have him back. Here are his collected winquotes so far, haven't seen vs himself or Birdie:

Charlie wins against Ryu: "That's the power of the Satsui no Hadou? I expected more."
Charlie wins against Bison: "I came back to kill you! Nothing more, nothing less..."
Charlie wins against Cammy: "If you were HIS servant, you are just as guilty. Prepare to repent."
Charlie wins against Chun Li: "Get in my way again, and I'll kill you where you stand."
 
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I HATE Nash's re-design / character change. The dude was focused on his mission on taking down Shadowloo but he was still kind, especially to Chun-Li. Now he's just a Emo Git who has a Sasuke complex where he has to get revenge on Bison and NO-ONE can stand in my way, NARUTO~! God.... it makes me want to punch Nash for being a dick to Chun. "I'll kill you were you stand" what bullshit.
 
Kawalorn said:
Any thoughts on the non-invincible backdashes? I dunno what to think of that. Won't that leave to little defensive options for the pressured? Or is it just another step to make players commit to their choice (like the removal of FADC DP's)? "Either block, tech or DP, no universal options".

Backdashes outside of a few characters like Chun/Poison/Rose were all free to option select sweep.

Basically invincible backdashes in SF4 are a crutch that makes intermediate level play really annoying (nobody does anti-backdash OSes at this level) but don't really add anything to the game in high level play. I'm glad they're gone.
 
I think it is fine if you are still imune to command throws, but if not, it is okay, than i'll just have to guess (or make a read, or react) between blocking, teching, jumping or trying to do some reversal
 
Ninja said:
I HATE Nash's re-design / character change. The dude was focused on his mission on taking down Shadowloo but he was still kind, especially to Chun-Li. Now he's just a Emo Git who has a Sasuke complex where he has to get revenge on Bison and NO-ONE can stand in my way, NARUTO~! God.... it makes me want to punch Nash for being a dick to Chun. "I'll kill you were you stand" what bullshit.
I personally think it's an interesting inversion of his personality. He put everything into stopping Bison for justice, but, it turns out that his own people in the US government were bought off by Bison ages ago.

They fed him tons of bat intel, diverted his path, but still that wasn't enough to stop him. Things only got worse for them when he and Chun Li partnered up and while posing as a couple for a time, were able to really sniff out leads. So eventually they had Charlie eliminated and aided Bison in his "murder".

He's hell bent on finishing Bison for good since he sees the damage he can do and how much has been done since he's been gone. I'd be "emo" too. He did it the other way at first and it got him nowhere, so it's not right, but understandable why he's gone extremist; he tried with friends and allies, he had humanity and even a sense of humour, but all he got was shot in the back, literally. We've been discussing this on SRK, but it looks like his Alpha 2 ending is his canon fate now, and SFA3 and SFII were merged by way of the anime clips released around SF4.

I don't know what his story is in SF5, but all the heavy hints all but point to Gill, Urien and the Illuminati. I theorize that they found him near death, and offered him the power he would need to launch his crusade, but he left before he could be fully finished. Interesting note, he's, in my theory, operating under free will. Gill may be a lunatic, but he's not Bison, and he doesn't brainwash.

Aesthetically I find his design interesting. He paid a tragic price for his crusade and his betrayal and he's marching on wearing his scars, not caring what he looks like. He also is wearing the 3rd Eye opal that Gill and Urien wear. That's got to be significant since we don't see the Ko-lin (Gill's beloved secretary and possible lover), underlings or G-Project creations wearing such a thing.

Personality wise, it makes sense. He knows the depths of Bison more than anyone in the cast and he feels that Bison needs to be taken down no matter what -- he's always getting away or throwing a smokescreen, so Charlie's basically like "Look, I care about you people, but there is no more time, too many people have died or been corrupted. IF you try and reason or talk me down, that's valuable time that's being wasted. Time wasted means more horror Bison can inflict. So if you keep me busy, I'll kill you so that I'm not slowed down."

The interesting thing is that he's not as extreme as he's presenting. His intro basically says "stop me and I'll kill you" yet if he wins such fight, he takes mercy on Chun Li and gives her another warning.

I can see his future (if he doesn't get killed off for real) resembling Big Boss' path. Bison is but a symptom of the problem. His own people betrayed him, there's corruption and evil in the world. He may try to go the Rolento route, build up his own forces and try to "make things right" by force. Guile and Chun li will clash with him along the way, but since he's not bainwashed, there's always potential hope that he can be convinced to return to a kinder, more forgiving path.
 
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guiz guiz wait. Ninja said it'd be a bad game cause Nash has teleports. Stop getting so excited over what is clearly a bad game. They gave a good character teleports, it's madness.
 
Shockdingo said:
Stated as purely cosmetic in alpha, he has 20/20, but loves the look of glasses
Plus you don't have to have perfect vision to enlist, and can even get away with 20/50 vision to be a pilot. Only navigators require 20/20.

But that's mostly neither here nor there since he had the Harrier.
 
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More quotes, dang Charlie's evolved into Lieutenant Salt:

Nash to Birdie: "You've managed to become an idiotic pig. What's the point of you staying alive?"
Nash to Nash: "What's happened to my body?"
Birdie to Nash: "That face! Did ya get those scars goin' against Shadaloo, Mate?"
Bison to Cammy: "With death, all is forgotten. Pain, suffering, and even the past."
Cammy to Nash: "I've heard about you. You're coming with me."
 
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