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The Smash Bros Discussion Thread

I just posted
like
a complete summation of everyone who doesn't like the heels's reasons for not liking them.
You can disagree, I can respect a disagreement but why say you don't know why when I just said why.
Well I didn't say, some one else did.
But my point stands.
 
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TheMightyBox said:
I just posted
like
a complete summation of everyone who doesn't like the heels's reasons for not liking them.
You can disagree, I can respect a disagreement but why say you don't know why when I just said why.
Well I didn't say, some one else did.
But my point stands.
Don't you tell me what other people think. Fabulous
 
don't you not say what you're not not saying
I won't not stand for that
 
Rellek said:
You realize there's a horrid amount of clipping already, correct? Those characters are animated with that model and there is still incredible amountes of clipping. Just look at Shiek, it's disgusting :P The only tweaking necessary is making the model compatible with the game itself, not the rigging.
What I'm saying is:
You make a model with the same skeleton as the old one. No new rigging.
You go back through every animation to take out or minimize clipping unless you're okay with it looking unprofessional. That second part is important because someone making a player model for garry's mod doesn't give a fuck that it clips horribly when X happens.
And, while there is a lot of clipping, that's not the same clipping that would occur here. What I'm saying is that when female WFT touches herself anywhere (which is extremely common in a yoga poses) if that particular part of the body is any bigger or smaller than it used to be his hand is going to clip straight into it and it will look fucking terrible. This is not "my costume is clipping slightly" this is "oh god my leg is eating my hand." The former is just an acceptable bi-product of the physics engine, the latter is a terrible animation.

Rellek said:
I've done model textures for brawl and there is no reason to alter animations to make the model compatible.
I'm sorry, you've done textures? Was that a typo? I assume you meant you changed the meshes somehow?
Anyway, if you really did mean textures, I'm not talking about any of the texture changes, you don't have to do anything to the animations for a texture change.

Rellek said:
That would alter the move/movement/idle itself and would ultimately be a different character with even SLIGHTLY differing properties. Last time I checked, alternate costumes don't change character properties. Please show me an instance where this happens in smash. I'd like to see it.
I never said anything about changing hit/hurtboxes assuming you mean move properties. You can perform the exact same move with different animations and change nothing as far as the gameplay is concerned.

Rellek said:
Perfect example: Mokujin. Completely new model, EXACT same rigging and properties. I don't see an issue with clipping with him either. In fact he FIXES clipping issues on Ogre.
Three very important things:
1.) He's literally made to look okay no matter whose animations you put on him. Notice how he's basically an artist's wooden model? You know, those things that are made to pose in any way the human body can without looking awkward? That's not a coincidence.
2.) He doesn't have the exact same rigging as the character he copies. If he did then you would see things like the leaf on his head copying the animations of rigged hair like Julia's ponytails, growing fingers on his steel ball hands when copying characters who move their fingers when they grab and shit, etc. This also means that he does, indeed, have slightly tweaked animations.
 
Jutsei said:
Are we seriously still going over the Heels?
It's been 2 fucking weeks.

48409856.jpg
 
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Oooh boy a lot to cover here.

Horseman said:
What I'm saying is:
You make a model with the same skeleton as the old one. No new rigging.
You go back through every animation to take out or minimize clipping unless you're okay with it looking unprofessional. That second part is important because someone making a player model for garry's mod doesn't give a fuck that it clips horribly when X happens.
First part, you totally got. Gratz, no new rigging. However, the model doens't move dynamically with the rest of the model. It's tied to the rigging (At least in a game like smash). So in order for you to avoid clipping that would normally happen, you would have to move the rigging itself thus creating a new animation. But in doing so, you change the way that rigging now acts in its environment. The hurtboxes are positioned differently and moves that would normally hit, now do not hit and the other way around.

Horseman said:
And, while there is a lot of clipping, that's not the same clipping that would occur here. What I'm saying is that when female WFT touches herself anywhere (which is extremely common in a yoga poses) if that particular part of the body is any bigger or smaller than it used to be his hand is going to clip straight into it and it will look fucking terrible. This is not "my costume is clipping slightly" this is "oh god my leg is eating my hand." The former is just an acceptable bi-product of the physics engine, the latter is a terrible animation.
Apparently you haven't looked at shiek yet. Please go do that. Just so you know, neither cases are noticable in high speed gameplay. This is more of an opinion thing so I can't give you shit for this. I think it's fine and you don't think so, so I am going to have to leave it at that.

Horseman said:
I'm sorry, you've done textures? Was that a typo? I assume you meant you changed the meshes somehow?
Anyway, if you really did mean textures, I'm not talking about any of the texture changes, you don't have to do anything to the animations for a texture change.
Did you not read the model part? Go to kittykorps and look up a model texture and you''ll understand what I'm talking about since you don't seem to right now. I do not mean textures in any way. I'm talking about models.

Horseman said:
I never said anything about changing hit/hurtboxes assuming you mean move properties. You can perform the exact same move with different animations and change nothing as far as the gameplay is concerned.
I talked about this in my first part, please read that.

Horseman said:
Three very important things:
1.) He's literally made to look okay no matter whose animations you put on him. Notice how he's basically an artist's wooden model? You know, those things that are made to pose in any way the human body can without looking awkward? That's not a coincidence.
2.) He doesn't have the exact same rigging as the character he copies. If he did then you would see things like the leaf on his head copying the animations of rigged hair like Julia's ponytails, growing fingers on his steel ball hands when copying characters who move their fingers when they grab and shit, etc. This also means that he does, indeed, have slightly tweaked animations.
1. Exactly. He's a model placed ontop of rigging, that's his whole gimmick. I'm not talking about who he is, what his origin is, or even what kind of wood he represents but rather the concept of placing a model on a rig. Also notice that clipping is HORRIBLE in Tekken... Like HOLY SHIT it's bad lol. Especially with King's throws lol. Anyways, Mokujin has pretty bad clipping as well on some characters but that doesn't stop me from using him :/
2. Yes he does. The rigging is there, however the model just doesn't cover it. The hurtbox of the hair STILL HITS even if the model doesn't show it. If by animations, you mean summoning parts of a model to cover rigging when his idle stance does not show it, then yes, you are right. That doesn't change the rigging's movement though and if this idea was applied to Male wft then parts of his body should disappear rather than clip through him :P But I might have misinterpretted that.
3. ???? There's not even a third so I dunno.
 
It's more an issue about Samus being put into rocket heels when she didn't honestly need to be I think. I mean yeah she needs something to boost her recovery since she lacks the screw attack or space jump in that state but lets be honest, she didn't need it in Brawl, she had the acrobatic flip move for her recovery in Brawl and that seemed just fine to me. I am getting tired of Samus' characterization and perception of being a bad-ass slowly being whittled down. Other M was a travesty to her character and as a story in general, we don't need more female stereotypes pushed on her for the sake of sex appeal. I mean I don't think it was really their intention to "sex her up" with the heels and it probably didn't occur to them that it would be so misconstrued, even though it honestly should have in today's gaming world.

More likely they were brainstorming on ways to change up her recovery and thought how about rocket boosted kick? They said "Great but how do we do that, she doesn't have boosters on her legs or feet?" the guy thought and then shrugged, "How about rocket shoes?" then it was handed to a designer and he spat out rocket heels. then the higher ups, liking the way it looked approved it and there you have it.
 
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Mysterygamer3k said:
It's more an issue about Samus being put into rocket heels when she didn't honestly need to be I think. I mean yeah she needs something to boost her recovery since she lacks the screw attack or space jump in that state but lets be honest, she didn't need it in Brawl, she had the acrobatic flip move for her recovery in Brawl and that seemed just fine to me. I am getting tired of Samus' characterization and perception of being a bad-ass slowly being whittled down. Other M was a travesty to her character and as a story in general, we don't need more female stereotypes pushed on her for the sake of sex appeal. I mean I don't think it was really their intention to "sex her up" with the heels and it probably didn't occur to them that it would be so misconstrued, even though it honestly should have in today's gaming world.

More likely they were brainstorming on ways to change up her recovery and thought how about rocket boosted kick? They said "Great but how do we do that, she doesn't have boosters on her legs or feet?" the guy thought and then shrugged, "How about rocket shoes?" then it was handed to a designer and he spat out rocket heels. then the higher ups, liking the way it looked approved it and there you have it.
I agree. She is pretty badass and still looks badass with the heels and they're ROCKET POWERED. How awesome is that?
 
Calypsx said:
Not awesome in the slightest.

Pretty much, I wasn't condoning their decision but my point was just demonstrating that it most likely wasn't a decision made purely to sex her look up, so much as it was just them picking the design that they liked best, which just ended up being heels. I mean if the internet bitches at Nintendo enough it'll probably get changed but who knows. I mean it's not like Nintendo to go the sex sells route, most of the time their too timid to even dip their toe into that with anything they do so I don't think they intentionally did the heels thing to degrade her so much as incidentally did something that was a big oops they should have realized way sooner.
 
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It's just unnecessary.
Like, in Brawl they disguised a new gadget in her canon design, the whip was implemented into her stun gun where it hadn't been before but with no changes to her original design.
If they REALLY felt that her grapple AND her jump flip weren't good enough recovery and wanted to give her a jet kick they could have really subtly put jets into her original boots built into the Zero Suit in the same way.
 
TheMightyBox said:
It's just unnecessary.
Like, in Brawl they disguised a new gadget in her canon design, the whip was implemented into her stun gun where it hadn't been before but with no changes to her original design.
If they REALLY felt that her grapple AND her jump flip weren't good enough recovery and wanted to give her a jet kick they could have really subtly put jets into her original boots built into the Zero Suit in the same way.

Surely there was at least one other design presented for the idea that could have worked a little better and been less controversial. Though it's probably far to late for them to actually change it, unless there's massive enough backlash to warrant the change, it's probably going to stay as is sadly.
 
Calypsx said:
Not awesome in the slightest.
TheMightyBox said:
It's just unnecessary.
Like, in Brawl they disguised a new gadget in her canon design, the whip was implemented into her stun gun where it hadn't been before but with no changes to her original design.
If they REALLY felt that her grapple AND her jump flip weren't good enough recovery and wanted to give her a jet kick they could have really subtly put jets into her original boots built into the Zero Suit in the same way.
Mysterygamer3k said:
Pretty much, I wasn't condoning their decision but my point was just demonstrating that it most likely wasn't a decision made purely to sex her look up, so much as it was just them picking the design that they liked best, which just ended up being heels. I mean if the internet bitches at Nintendo enough it'll probably get changed but who knows. I mean it's not like Nintendo to go the sex sells route, most of the time their too timid to even dip their toe into that with anything they do so I don't think they intentionally did the heels thing to degrade her so much as incidentally did something that was a big oops they should have realized way sooner.
You guise are so silly :P Also very serious at the same time. If you don't think about the sexualization or alteration of the design then it wouldn't be as big deal. See it as a completely separate design of a cool character that does awesome stuff :D And you'll get to kick ass with her :O
 
Calypsx said:
I'm sure it wasn't intentional, just when I hear others acting all confused saying things like "I don't know why they don't like the heels, I think they look awesome" that's wonderful, however it doesn't discredit others criticism towards a character design they may find unfavorable.

People who don't like the heels aren't complaining just to complain. They just think it was a poor design choice for said character. It's a perfectly valid criticism.

Well, it is more like, some people just like the Metroid games and could kinda care less about the character's personality and characterization. People that are passionate about a character's lore, history, and personality are going to take offense when things are done with a character that are just downright disrespectful to what the character was always portrayed as and how people envision a character. For Samus, she's usually seen as a more gruff, anti-authority, ass stomping bounty hunter who wasn't ever really a "girl" in her young life. She didn't do things young girls in a society like ours today do, she was raised as a warrior, as a soldier against forces in the galaxy others couldn't handle. And putting her in slutty high heels is just downright disrespectful of the kind of character she is in terms of her personality and the kind of things that she would want to actually wear.

Kinda how some writers really fucked up with Wonder Woman in the past and got a toooon of backlash for it. Like making wonder woman not knowing how to pump gas in a car or a multitude of other things when she was perfectly intelligent and knew how to do all those things at the time, the writer just knew nothing about the character and treated it like trash. (Gail Simone is the best Wonder Woman writer ever btw.)
 
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Rellek said:
You guise are so silly :P Also very serious at the same time. If you don't think about the sexualization or alteration of the design then it wouldn't be as big deal. See it as a completely separate design of a cool character that does awesome stuff :D And you'll get to kick ass with her :O

Dude, you're talking to the wrong guy with this, feminism and female representation, especially in the video game industry is a subject that I'm super interested in.

Plus, Samus is one of my favorite video game characters, if not my all time favorite, and to see her entire personality and appearance get absolutely fucked with as of recent (and maybe even a bit in Zero Mission in regards to appearance with that gratuitous ass shot) really bothers me.
So I'm gonna talk about it. And criticize it. And not ignore it.
 
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I really dont think making the heels she's already wearing higher and standing just a little higher on her front heels adds much on the sexy factor.
ZeroSuitSamusBrawl.png
tumblr_inline_n3qo1g2OIB1qldhit.jpg

unless you're Quentin Tarantino.

edit: plus, I doubt you'd be able to add rocket boots without taking away the sleek design of the Zero Suit.
 
Rellek said:
However, the model doens't move dynamically with the rest of the model.
This line is kind of preventing me from fully understanding you there.

Rellek said:
The hurtboxes are positioned differently and moves that would normally hit, now do not hit and the other way around.
The hurtboxes can be adjusted, kind of doubt they're tied to the model's rigging in a way that you can't move them to where X body part would be if you were playing female wft.

Rellek said:
Apparently you haven't looked at sheik yet. Please go do that. Just so you know, neither cases are noticable in high speed gameplay. This is more of an opinion thing so I can't give you shit for this. I think it's fine and you don't think so, so I am going to have to leave it at that.
Looked up Sheik Clipping on google and I didn't find anything that's the same as what I'm thinking male wii fit trainer would look like without any adjustments. Gonna need some specific screenshots here.
And yeah, to be fair it bugs some people more than others but I personally fucking hate it. I can get past the random clipping of physics generated animation but when it's just a regular, uninterrupted animation with nothing in the environment screwing with it and it clips horribly I begin to shout profanities.

Rellek said:
The hurtbox of the hair STILL HITS even if the model doesn't show it.
Well first of all, didn't know that. That's kind of a cool detail.
But now I'm incredibly confused by how you think changing male wft's animations so that his hand is in a slightly adjusted place when he grabs his leg means that the hurtboxes are now fucked.

Rellek said:
That doesn't change the rigging's movement though and if this idea was applied to Male wft then parts of his body should disappear rather than clip through him :P But I might have misinterpretted that.
Have no idea how you drew that conclusion but you know, whatever. I was saying that things like hand gestures or hair were never represented in mokujin's model, so he isn't doing the same animations they were doing.

Sanoblaze said:
I really dont think making the heels she's already wearing higher and standing just a little higher on her front heels adds much on the sexy factor.

unless you're Quentin Tarantino.
So I guess cowboys wear fucking heels?
And fishermen?
And soldiers?
Are you actually fucking serious?
 
are you kids arguing about video games on the internet again
 
Of course. What else is there to do?
 
Horseman said:
So I guess cowboys wear fucking heels?
And fishermen?
And soldiers?
Are you actually fucking serious?
LP4KzEF.gif

sorry, poor choice of words. I was just saying her heels are already elevated, so I dont see how making them higher makes it a problem. plus, the base where she's standing looks super solid, as compared to other high heels where the toes are usually squeezed and forced to stand on a triangle, hers looks like they're built in more of a square of rectangular shape and provide a lot of stability.

super-smash-bros-3ds-zero-suit-samus-screenshot-2.jpg
 
Sanoblaze said:
I really dont think making the heels she's already wearing higher and standing just a little higher on her front heels adds much on the sexy factor.
ZeroSuitSamusBrawl.png
tumblr_inline_n3qo1g2OIB1qldhit.jpg

unless you're Quentin Tarantino.

edit: plus, I doubt you'd be able to add rocket boots without taking away the sleek design of the Zero Suit.

Yo compare the slope of her foot in her original Brawl suit to the slope of her foot in any of the screenshots showing off her heels.
And I'm not a huge fan of the Brawl design for how skintight the suit was (can't women just wear jumpsuits anymore), but you could still walk in them, those are the kind of heels that you can find on most boots. The new ones are explicitly for design and not practicality.

Also,
tumblr_n4ribpheHG1ro0g5eo1_1280.png

pretend for a second that that's exhaust and you get my meaning.
 
TheMightyBox said:
tumblr_n4ribpheHG1ro0g5eo1_1280.png

pretend for a second that that's exhaust and you get my meaning.

I thought those were springs for a second.
 
Box, if they were supposed to be rocket boots the way that a foot would even have room in there UNLESS the soles of the shoes extended. I'm just saying the shoes she had in Brawl would have much room for rocket capability as they were.
 
that looks too close to her foot to be safe
gotta have some kind of distance or else her feet will be all sweaty
all gross
and sweaty
with sweat
gross
 
Oh, NOW we wanna talk about realism.
Maybe not on the sole (I didn't want to spend more than 20 seconds on the illustration, so it didn't have a whole bunch of thought put into it), but given super special future tech you could probably fit a low-powered thruster into the heel itself.
Even then, you could extend the sole outward or give her platform shoes or anything except putting the front of the foot 4 inches below the heel.
 
The bigger question is:

Will it blend?
 
don't you guys think we spent enough time debating this

honestly this is getting more annoying than ridley arguments, and it takes a lot to top that
 
Sweet Jesus I'll take this as a lesson to never mention heels again in the slightest. I've already gotten used to looking at them and I actually kinda like them.

Let's just all take a deep breath and agree that we view Samus as a strong, Chozo raised woman who don't need no Adam lol.
 
Actually all this discussion just reminded me of something. Anyone remember the old Monty Oum Haloid animation/fight video? He had an issue where he had to have Samus able to fly around and he went with rocket boots but they were just her Varia suit boots with the rest of her wearing her Zero Suit. I guess he couldn't find a more elegant solution either but honestly I think just adding some sort of thrusters to the underside of her normal boots would have been perfectly fine and either way it definitely didn't have to be heels. Have any of you ever even tried walking on a heel higher than a half an inch? It's insanely difficult to get used to heels that high and that's just for normal walking. o.O
 
Let's end this argument by having one person try to argue something that EVERYONE can agree is completely wrong and dumb, thereby uniting us all against that one person.

I shall humbly volunteer:
Mario should be replaced with Big the Cat :PUN:
 
Ya'll are weak and won't survive the winter.
But if you really want to change the subject we can always go back to yelling When's ________? at each other.
 
TheMightyBox said:
Ya'll are weak and won't survive the winter.
But if you really want to change the subject we can always go back to yelling When's ________? at each other.

Hmmm Well, there's only a few characters left that have been rumored to be in, yet haven't been announced yet... So when's Pacman? And what do you think his Final Smash will be? I'm probably leaning toward him eating a Power Pellet and then just being able to one shot everyone on the screen. :D
 
TheMightyBox said:
Ya'll are weak and won't survive the winter.
But if you really want to change the subject we can always go back to yelling When's ________? at each other.

Ok I'll start. When's Palutena?
 
juju_for_president said:
Mario should be replaced with Big the Cat :PUN:
FUCK yes lets do it.

Back on topic, I kind of figured that the shoes are the LAST thing I looked at when looking at Samus, so its whatevs for me and it really should be for everyone else. Honestly, if that's the first thing you look at, you're just BEGGING for an argument.
 
AceZTeller said:
FUCK yes lets do it.

Back on topic, I kind of figured that the shoes are the LAST thing I looked at when looking at Samus, so its whatevs for me and it really should be for everyone else. Honestly, if that's the first thing you look at, you're just BEGGING for an argument.
 
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AceZTeller said:
Back on topic, I kind of figured that the shoes are the LAST thing I looked at when looking at Samus, so its whatevs for me and it really should be for everyone else. Honestly, if that's the first thing you look at, you're just BEGGING for an argument.
She still has massive breasts and come hither eyes and a beauty mark on top of the heels.
Although I will say that I think the rocket thing made it a tiny bit better. Not better enough for me to get over the other m design, but that probably wasn't Sakurai's decision to make anyway.
 
TheMightyBox said:
Ya'll are weak and won't survive the winter.
But if you really want to change the subject we can always go back to yelling When's ________? at each other.
when's

hector
 
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