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The Smash Bros Discussion Thread

I guess I'll go back to being scum of the earth and play Sly.
 
...
Well this was a thing to wake up to.
Also, just keep in mind that even if this is taking a lot of resources, Namco Bandai is helping out, so it's not as bad as it could've been.
 
It makes me sad that people here seem to think that heavy customization elements can't exist in a super competitive environment. Seriously, everyone who's getting super pissed every time miis get more customizable should go play a competitive TCG. Or at least league of legends or something. Customization elements combined with solid competitive structure are what I fucking live for.
 
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TheMightyBox said:
I honestly don't understand why everyone thinks this feature will be broken.

The most straightforward approach to balancing out the Miis would have been to give them all standard height, weight, and hitboxes. I know this goes against Mii customization and is a lazy solution, but it's also a solution that would work.

Trying to "balance" this feature by giving various hitboxes different speeds and weights is just another lazy man's way of attempting to balance things. Like you said, having different sizes already changes the hitboxes by some number of variables. The problem is that changing a character's speed and height doesn't balance this out, it just adds more variables. It's like how characters have different amounts of health in the vs Capcom series. It kinda works to an extent, but in the end it doesn't really balance things out all that well...

We're also talking about Sakurai here. He's pretty piss poor when it comes to balancing things. It's not so much that I think this system can't work, I just don't believe that Sakurai cares to balance it. I also don't think he could balance it if he tried.

PaperBag_Sniper said:
Exactly my reasoning. If competetive players don't want items or certain stages for balance issues that's there prerogative, but in a non-competitive setting I like to have my items on high and my stages varied. No reason to go about bashing a feature you don't like if you don't plan to use it but maybe 90% of everyone else does.

And yeah, but that's not really what we're talking about here. I'm more of a casual player than I am a competitive player by a long shot when it comes to Smash, so I enjoy things like items, customization, and unique stages. The majority of my Smash play sessions are with friends and we usually aren't too serious.

The problem with the Miis are that these features begin to unnecessarily exclude things from competitive play. It's just a poor design decision considering it could easily be made to appeal to competitive players as well. Items and stage hazards are one thing. They're fun, and they can also be avoided for people that want to play competitively. But having these variables within a character means that they're really only useful for casual play, which means that they spent an awfully large amount of time and resources on characters that only appeal to some of the base players. They could have just as easily made Miis more unified, meaning less variables to worry about with regards to balance. This would make Miis fun for everyone, while still making them interesting and viable for people who like to play competitively. I'm sure the Miis will be fun, but it's a shame that Sakurai makes such poor design decisions regarding things like this.



Now, it would be nice if there was also a default set of standards for the Miis. In other words, a default load out with preset height, weight, and special moves. This wouldn't take anything away from the fun of customizing and experimenting with the Mii fighters, and could also provide the competitive players with something that they might feel comfortable adopting into serious play. Alternatively, the competitive scene could attempt to adopt customization for a while to see if it's viable for competitive play. If it's not, then they could attempt to create standards for competitive use. Or just ban characters left and right. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day cuz the game is gonna be hella fun no matter what, I just wish Sakurai wasn't making things so difficult by adding in such unnecessary levels of detail.
 
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ban miis
ban smash bros
ban tournaments
ban video games
ban existence
and also unban meta knight
 
Skullmageddon said:
The most straightforward approach to balancing out the Miis would have been to give them all standard height, weight, and hitboxes. I know this goes against Mii customization and is a lazy solution, but it's also a solution that would work.

Trying to "balance" this feature by giving various hitboxes different speeds and weights is just another lazy man's way of attempting to balance things. Like you said, having different sizes already changes the hitboxes by some number of variables. The problem is that changing a character's speed and height doesn't balance this out, it just adds more variables. It's like how characters have different amounts of health in the vs Capcom series. It kinda works to an extent, but in the end it doesn't really balance things out all that well…

So giving Mii's standard heights and weights and sizes would be lazy.
But attempting to balance the issue by applying different stats to the different sizes is also lazy.
But giving the different Mii Fighters different movesets and heights and weights and speeds and hitboxes essentially makes them into completely different characters but it's too much effort for a feature that'll be unbalanced anyways soSakuraishouoldjustfocusonmakingothercharactersbutthemorecharactershemakesthelessthegamewillbebalancedbecauseofallthecharacters and I-

I still don't understand.

Skullmageddon said:
We're also talking about Sakurai here. He's pretty piss poor when it comes to balancing things. It's not so much that I think this system can't work, I just don't believe that Sakurai cares to balance it. I also don't think he could balance it if he tried.

But Sakurai's kinda shown that he's taken more interest into balancing the game this time around, not to mention that the previous games weren't all that balanced because he was the only one on the balancing team, whereas now that he's working with Namco Bandai he's got a team experienced with fighting games so,
it's really not illogical to hope for the best on this.
 
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Skullmageddon said:
I just wish Sakurai wasn't making things so difficult by adding in such unnecessary levels of detail.

Unnecessary details is why I love Sakurai. I don't want a game that's just fighting hitboxes.

also can I just say that the female Mii here is darn cute (at least I think that's a girl)

daily-2014-06-27.jpg
 
TheMightyBox said:
So giving Mii's standard heights and weights and sizes would be lazy.
But attempting to balance the issue by applying different stats to the different sizes is also lazy.
But giving the different Mii Fighters different movesets and heights and weights and speeds and hitboxes essentially makes them into completely different characters but it's too much effort for a feature that'll be unbalanced anyways soSakuraishouoldjustfocusonmakingothercharactersbutthemorecharactershemakesthelessthegamewillbebalancedbecauseofallthecharacters and I-

I still don't understand.
It's simple really
Ridley is too big
so you make a Ridley Mii instead
 
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I think the competitive community would be a lot more likely to allow customization in tournaments if the customization could be done from the character select screen.

If it has to be done from a menu then it would increase the amount of time each tournament match takes. Remember, TOs only have so much time to run a tournament and stage select and button checks take enough time as it is.
 
Goodbye18000 said:
Unnecessary details is why I love Sakurai. I don't want a game that's just fighting hitboxes.

also can I just say that the female Mii here is darn cute (at least I think that's a girl)

daily-2014-06-27.jpg

i am 90% sure,
that that is a small male child.
 
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Goodbye18000 said:
I dunno, I don't think Miis would take that many resources. I mean, the size is such a simple change that I don't think it would even take a day of development.

I know you don't mean to sound this way, but I actually find this kind of offensive from a designer's perspective. The amount of work that would go into designing, developing, and implement all of the various elements regarding the Miis would be STAGGERING. They have to be designed from the ground up, meaning there's no precedent to build off of when designing them. They also have an extremely large pool of moves to choose from, not to mention the fact that they had to build a system in which the game can recognize and implement your Mii in a manor that directly resembles your Mii but also creates some set of standards to make them fit within the visual elements of Smash 4 specifically (although they have plenty of experience doing this). That's a lot of work man.

Goodbye18000 said:
Unnecessary details is why I love Sakurai. I don't want a game that's just fighting hitboxes.

also can I just say that the female Mii here is darn cute (at least I think that's a girl)

Detail is why I love Sakurai. Unnecessary detail is when things get stupid. Also, is that a girl? I'm pretty sure that's not a girl :P


TheMightyBox said:
--snipped for size--

Something like that :)

But really, there's nothing wrong with Mii customization. It'll probably be a really fun feature. There's just too much to handle from a design perspective when considering balance, so it's highly unlikely that everything will work out nicely. And yes, all games are unbalanced in many ways. That, in fact, is what creates a lot of the interesting dynamics that pop up in a game like Smash.

And yeah, I know he's trying to focus more on balance. That, and he's got a team of people to help him out. I still don't trust him though :P


Horseman said:
It makes me sad that people here seem to think that heavy customization elements can't exist in a super competitive environment. Seriously, everyone who's getting super pissed every time miis get more customizable should go play a competitive TCG. Or at least league of legends or something. Customization elements combined with solid competitive structure are what I fucking live for.

It's not that customization can't exist in a competitive scene, it's just that it's very difficult to do properly. Even something like Magic the Gathering (a series that is generally very well developed and well balanced) has elements of the basic game mechanics that can be exploited with a proper setup. The result is that the competitive community bans certain cards and has standard formats by which people play competitively, much like competitive Smash in fact.

Also, anyone out there play Pokemon TCG? That junk is all sorts of unbalanced and broken, but I still love getting new cards and playing with friends :P
 
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Screw the tiers n stuff! I'll play mega man because I like the character. If I lose, I'll lose using the character I like, not something that is overpowered but I don't like
 
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DukeMagus said:
Screw the tiers n stuff! I'll play mega man because I like the character. If I lose, I'll lose using the character I like, not something that is overpowered but I don't like
I stand firm in my belief that tiers are stupid and I'll use whoever the goddamn fuck I want.
 
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tiers more like beers
alcohol is bad for you
stay in school kids
don't drink competitively
*G.I. JOOOOOOOOOOOE*
 
It's a good thing this was announced after we got to hear her in action, she sounds identical.
 
She sounds like the Palutena we all know and love, and that's all that really matters. Props to Kopp, who I've never even heard of before today.
 
They were different?
 
She's mostly a television actress, from what I've looked up

But dang did she match the voice well
 
If only Fox's new VA could voice match as well

Let's hope that's temp, cause "FY-ERRR"

Though what if they made his VA terrible on purpose to stop people from playing him so much?

Sneeky Sneek, Sakaguchi
 
Jutsei said:
I stand firm in my belief that tiers are stupid and I'll use whoever the goddamn fuck I want.
Yeah fuck tiers
 
Annie did it.
 
Skullmageddon said:
It's not that customization can't exist in a competitive scene, it's just that it's very difficult to do properly. Even something like Magic the Gathering (a series that is generally very well developed and well balanced) has elements of the basic game mechanics that can be exploited with a proper setup. The result is that the competitive community bans certain cards and has standard formats by which people play competitively, much like competitive Smash in fact.
Well first off, standard mtg has a rotation so they VERY rarely ban cards. Yugioh bans cards regularly but that's because konami isn't even trying to balance that shit, horrifying overwhelming power creep has rendered it a broken game, it used to be the best game ever in like 2010-2011 or so though. It used to be like the mvc2 of card games, now it's like mvc2 with sentinel and cable banned because oh gosh why would you want to do anything but rushdown?
The big thing to remember though is that with customization it's never going to achieve that perfect balance that other games attempt to get and trying to do that is only going to make the game really really boring. You want 4-5 (minimum) decks that are more or less even and you don't want the top tier to be so much more powerful than the bottom that daring to play tier 3 decks makes you automatically lose. That's a balanced card game. So basically yeah, to use MVC2 again - not all the characters are as good as magneto/storm/sent/cable but you can use the vast majority of them without automatically losing.
The other thing to remember is that card games have about 100x as many customization options as SSB4 will, so it's not even nearly as big of a problem. Imagine for a moment if every character got new special options on each move along with a couple new characters every 3 months for the next decade and you'll begin approaching your typical TCG's balancing act.
 
Horseman said:
Imagine for a moment if every character got new special options on each move along with a couple new characters every 3 months for the next decade and you'll begin approaching your typical TCG's balancing act.


this is exactly what I want holy shit give it to me
 
You people do understand that competitive people who pick higher tiered characters do enjoy playing the characters, yeah?
And that people are allowed to play characters because they enjoy the playstyle of the character as opposed to the character themself?
And that nobody's going to get mad at you for not picking the higher tiered characters?
And that you're not somehow magically superior for picking a lower tiered character, it's just your main the same as Meta-Knight or Fox can be someone else's main?
And that the tier system is just a guideline to tell you which characters are objectively better base characters than others?
And that any character can be good but some are easier to be good with than others and that's what dictates the tier system?
 
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