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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

Stuff

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I'm not downplaying Fortune's strength, I'm still waiting on the eventual nerfs but Annie overall invalidates all the support characters just by existing. I think that deserves discussion too. (Personally I feel like she's kind of ruined the meta)

I wish the support characters could be more even in that regard whether it be by nerfs or buffs but as we're still waiting on the patch all I can say is what I think currently.
 

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PME I can do what Fortune/Annie players do now with every DP assist+ combo DHC in the game
But that's just it

To replicate the Fortune/Annie shell, you need 2 other characters, and that's still not quite what the shell is doing. Annie is doing it by herself

So a team comp without Annie is:
Fortune / DHC character / DP assist

While one with Annie is:
Fortune / DHC + DP / Flex Pick

You can try to blend the 2 options together to open up the 3rd character slot by picking someone that can be a DP assist and have a combo DHC. If we're limiting it to 1 bar DHCs, those characters are:

Filia
Double
Parasoul (needs otg)
Umbrella
Beo (but needs the right situation and screen placement)
....and by technicality Squigly, Peacock, Fukua, and Bella

The first 4 characters' DPs pale in comparison to Annie's. None of them have the height, invul, corner carry, and happy birthday potential she's doing. Double has trouble hitting 2 characters with Cat Heads DHC. Puddle helps, but you have to juggle the assist so that you can hit the falling point character before they land if you've spent otg. Parasoul needs otg. Filia's Gregor loses corner and needs otg to regain it. Umbrella can keep the corner, doesn't need otg, and can keep comboing 2 characters. But she's not building the meter that Annie can build in order to finish off characters

These characters have to compete with everything that Annie is putting on the table, not just any 1 thing. And all of it in one character slot. The 3rd character can be someone to command neutral with, which in turn also lets Annie shore up her only "weakness", her neutral.

So yes, you can put Fortune with a DP character and a DHC character. But the point I'm making is that they have to do it better than Annie, and in one character slot.

i think that its actually just fortune is broken and with a dp assist she becomes even more of a problem and that the average fortune player loves to downplay how strong she is
I don't know which players you've been talking to, but Fortune absolutely needs nerfs
 

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You can try to blend the 2 options together to open up the 3rd character slot by picking someone that can be a DP assist and have a combo DHC. If we're limiting it to 1 bar DHCs, those characters are:

Filia
Double
Parasoul (needs otg)
Umbrella

The first 4 characters' DPs pale in comparison to Annie's. None of them have the height, invul, corner carry, and happy birthday potential she's doing. Umbrella can keep the corner, doesn't need otg, and can keep comboing 2 characters. But she's not building the meter that Annie can build in order to finish off characters
Umbrella's DP assist Hungern Rush, while sharing a similar amount of invulnerable active frames, is a hitgrab. You aren't getting the two character corner carry off one DP like Annie's can.

While Retina DHC is good for comboing both, it not only heavily scales the combo but also can go far quicker because of the reduced timings between hits, which makes it harder to convert with a light and heavy bouncing. Also given that Umbrella requires Salt Grinder/Tongue Twister/Rush to get extremely high damage/meter, alongside SNS loops being unfeasible on two characters at once, her specialty isn't really within happy birthdays. She has strong post-DHC damage and great, stabilizing corner carry, but not the happy birthday strength that Annie does.
 

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I'm not downplaying Fortune's strength, I'm still waiting on the eventual nerfs but Annie overall invalidates all the support characters just by existing. I think that deserves discussion too. (Personally I feel like she's kind of ruined the meta)

I wish the support characters could be more even in that regard whether it be by nerfs or buffs but as we're still waiting on the patch all I can say is what I think currently.
on a slight tangent, agreed.

apart from certain characters moves being better in their kit, it'd help worlds with assists. lack of *viable* variety outside of niche scenarios would do the game good as a whole. A few examples:
- painwheel: charged/hatred-guarded assists & overall better hitboxes for buers as well (can you do charged nails?)
- squigly: charged assists. like beo, if uncharged, charge for first call, then actual move on the 2nd. it's weird her xhp normals are used infinitely more than specials for assists. like that shouldnt be the case.
- eliza: just straight up better specials for a change to stop relying on sekh & health drain...
- valentine: vial toss assists, load vial, then next call tosses
- beowulf: option to force chair/chairless. obviously reclaims chair on first call if needed like for DP

Assists arent the end-all be all for picks but ill admit i first picked up squigly when i mained filia purely on the fact she had chord, since i love scorpion-type moves. still my favorite move of hers today. Doesnt really have a place in this meta assistwise, but if it werent for that i wouldnt have stumbled through trying to learn her. In the beginning though i didn't like her tbph. But that gateway point literally helped me stay because i just wanted a better assist i really liked that wasnt auto-top tier. More easily accessible characters having better assists counts double against others...so hopefully that changes soon

edit: it's kind of interesting thinking on it, how 1 move can swing a pick for a character regardless of anything else in their kit. not because it's super good but because it feels good, has a great reward for a weird move &/or enables creativity. for the lesser-used characters it'd be nice to see that.
 
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squigly: charged assists. like beo
You mean like Val or Robo*
Beo gets to grab his chair offscreen.
- valentine: vial toss assists, load vial, then next call tosses
She already has that?

Also on the note of painwheel's armored assists, she doesn't get armor on her normal assists even when on HI when she is supposed to get armor frame 1?
 

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Charged nails are currently not possible but I also don't want to live in a world where Peacock has access to that much screen control. (or any character really but Peacock I fear the most with that assist.) I'd still try it maybe....

Also I think Nuuance is suggesting to have vial load assist how it used to be where you can call it twice in one combo which I think was removed but I'm not entirely sure.

Personally I still like the idea of M pinion being a multihit move similar to H hairball, it'd help round out her assist usage a bit more.

please please please, it'll be awesome I swear
 

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You mean like Val or Robo*
Beo gets to grab his chair offscreen.

She already has that?

Also on the note of painwheel's armored assists, she doesn't get armor on her normal assists even when on HI when she is supposed to get armor frame 1?
dont think val does. unless theres a special assist select input im missing. she can load them, but not throw with same assist. if you preload then sure, but again maybe im missing something. primarily meant 1) load vial 2) next call throw. that's all. as for calling multiple times i dont really have an opinion on that, whatever people like best.

i dont understand what you mean with painwheel, im mainly saying itd be cool to be able to select a charged version because you cant now. Idk anything about what frame armor starts...not a PW main. @Stuff haha i suppose i see what you mean. But after dealing w/band, peacock, and annie or robo assists all this time i honestly dont think there's much more that pushes the boundaries past what we've already had to deal with. at one point people thought L Crescent was too much, but now it's like whatever. But yeah just thoughts, overall moreso wanting more charged moves in general to try.

edit:
Btw will there be anything happening to the rest of the cast. its pretty fun reading peoples input. But the silence is confusing sometimes...if nothing else 'big' will happen apart from dlc that's cool, but it would be nice to know. the talks continue, but nothing recents confirmed or denied I think.

I Understand DLC & work period takes time, no rush on any content, but again just talking about a quick word on what is going on realistically. Makes sense keeping stuff same before evo...but wonder if theres an endgoal.
 
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Stuff

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I was thinking that if PW's weird turning around antics that get accidental buers is a really hard fix, if her air buers could be less minus? That way it's not a death sentence to get something out of your control. I was thinking 0 on block because you don't get much from an air buer when it does hit barring some assists and I think some meter applications? But really it'd be nice if wasn't -18 maybe even -5 would be okay since it would be safe versus most everything in the air but likely land cancelable since she just kind of hangs in the air on block.

I think ground buers are spoken about enough but I also think that air buers happening accidentally is a pretty big problem too.

Also a suggestion for beam nerfs, I still don't like the cooldown since I think it doesn't really hurt rushdown characters and the funny thing is H beam is 5 hits mid screen and 6 hits from fairly close but still some space between the point and opponent, if H beam as assist only would be 4 hits always (It's 4 hits minimum at further distances) that might help its lockdown ability upclose which is hard to deal with when a rushdown character is behind it but tbh idk how much removing two hits would do and it scaling less might make it stronger somehow. The damage for the assist only version might also need tweaking but idk.
 

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dont think val does. unless theres a special assist select input im missing. she can load them, but not throw with same assist. if you preload then sure, but again maybe im missing something. primarily meant 1) load vial 2) next call throw. that's all. as for calling multiple times i dont really have an opinion on that, whatever people like best.
 

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Sorry. We're back with another Annie post.

I needed to think about the opposite perspective for a bit: the ambition that Annie is the benchmark character for the cast strength to gravitate towards. And for the record, I think that's great. Bring it on. However.

In what timeframe and what track record has Skullgirls ever been able to do this?

Track Record:
Double was top 3 for nearly the entire lifespan of the game. M-Shadow Fukua was the closest character to challenge her, who is now dead in the ground. That means several patches, several DLC character releases, and a "final" patch. Recently, Double received another round of nerfs to see Annie cement herself into Double's former position. Many here agree that there should be Double reversions so she doesn't get cornered out of her former role even with an Annie power adjustment. So now, after all this, we're trying to amend Double to match Annie first. Isn't that indicative of how the entire rest of the cast needs to catch up?

Timeframe:
Disclaimer: Everyone at HVS, you must be working hard. It must not be easy working with the resources you have. I imagine there's so much overlapping workloads between both games that it's painful right now. Please don't consider this a dig on your part.

With what time are we ever going to see this stabilization of the cast? In Annie's patch, we had a focus on Beowulf, Eliza, and Robo Fortune. Even now there is still more discussion about how to adjust Eliza and Beowulf.
In the Umbrella patch, we received a massive BETA changelist and dead silence for a month, only for the vast majority to get reverted. Painwheel was on the prospective list of changes heading into the Umbrella patch. Where did she go?

Sage has brought up the idea of reverting Annie's level2 on point. This makes total sense. Fundamentally, the execution should match the intention of the super. To me, this isn't pertinent to fix and yet it's a considerable change for Annie's point strength. And thus the divide further grows. (Even moreso if we revert Knuckle nerfs)

The deadline for the 4th DLC character has gotten pushed back. If the pass does well, we get a fifth character. This means that there is no time to allocate towards the ideal goal of bringing characters up to Annie. If it's a giant patch after the Season Pass concludes, we could be looking at almost Winter 2023/Spring 2024. This means a LOT of time for Annie to stay as polarizing as she is.

In Summary: I would like to trust the process of Annie's current strength and the game's strength philosophy. However, there is absolutely nothing on her side for this. That is my base concern about this topic.
 

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I just wanna point out that changes are being considered on the entire cast because of one Season Pass character, and not the other way around. What I mean is, the 14 characters cast has been there for a long while now and I would assume the new characters would have to be adjusted to fit the existing cast and not the other way around.
 

Stuff

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fwiw even if double got L luger back annie would still more than likely be the better character just on the basis that she can always convert anything from anywhere with less issues with any character so imo annie is the bigger issue more than other characters being weaker. And even then what about the other support characters? It's probably easier to level characters that are strong atm than make everyone stronger and having some characters overlooked and they turn out to be a lot stronger in the future.

Ideally, it would be nice if support characters or just characters in general had a more shared synergy across the board but idk if there's even time for such a thing but I think that would also help level out just how useful Annie is but I do have some concerns about everyone being as strong as Annie because idk what that even entails because if it's just a photocopy of Annie, at least for me, the game will be boring. But if we're talking about well rounded toolsets that just work and have good rewards then I'm more open to the idea but because "Make them like Annie" feels like a vague idea I can't envision myself I do feel the need to share my concern. It's a lot like the idea of what the game "should be" I don't know what that means and so it's hard for me to suggest anything or agree with anything.

Me? I just wanna chip you out from fullscreen and runaway so I will more than likely suggest stuff like that because that's the playstyle bias I have. Let me chip you.

EDIT: to clarify, if anyone could explain what it means to be "like annie" on a per character basis I'd appreciate it because I genuinely don't understand.
 
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As she is right now she is a glue character who plays very well with any team because she is consistent in a game where a lot of characters have really silly inconsistencies. It’s why I am all for buffing more characters to Annie level because in terms of playing the game of “Skullgirls” without being a rulebreaker (-install of course), I think she does it the best. Simple as that.
Annie:

Without install Annie is how strong a character should be imo. In fact I think Annies previous 6HP, point pillar and hitstop on H knuckle should be given back to her (the other knuckles really don't need the extra scaling either, come on )


Annie is a complete and consistent character and that's what we should aim for in characters. Keep in mind we see her a lot today but the players doing well with her are the same bella/double players that were winning everything before her. She added a new option to the game, but instead of having double alongside her we made Double weaker and even less consistent.

Quotes for Stuff.
 

Ikkisoad

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I do have some concerns about everyone being as strong as Annie because idk what that even entails because if it's just a photocopy of Annie

I understand that if everyone is broken the game could be more fun to play, and currently I have a blast with my team besides when my bypass doesn't have a hitbox. But if everyone gets good at everything there will be no space for the so called expression for neither the player nor the character.

If everyone is broken, people will just opt for the one that gives you the best for the best reward vs effort price. Which is why I think it is cool that characters should be kept on what we would call an archetype. If that wasn't in mind when balancing I don't think Robo's idj oh would be gone, even though it was gated by hard execution. It also gives space for creativity on team building.
I'm no trying to say that Annie is necessarily broken, but she offers strong assists, good DHCs, ok point game and awesome post hit. I don't think we are going to have an interesting game if everyone gets that big of a piece of the cake.
 

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I'm no trying to say that Annie is necessarily broken, but she offers strong assists, good DHCs, ok point game and awesome post hit. I don't think we are going to have an interesting game if everyone gets that big of a piece of the cake.
It's not necessarily about the assist/DHC/Damage/tools consistency, so much as making all of a character's kit consistent. Making Throne useful for Eliza, giving Filia an easier confirm off of ranged 2MK if the damage is already ruined by scaling, giving Fukua appropriate health back, etc.

And then the next problem becomes: what aspects of their game do we fix? How do we appropriately treat jack-of-all trades in comparison to specialized gameplans?

I think this is the lynchpin of the Umbrella/Dahlia dicussion where people have asked "What is the direction of the character you would like us to take in order to suggest changes" which was met with hesitation. The idea that things will fall into place and people can express themselves through whatever playstyle they want.

But this isn't considerate enough to fair treatment. Why build around Beowulf or Umbrella when I can play Valentine or Ms Fortune? Beowulf gets incredible reward with his team composition, but I could play Ms Fortune who requires less demanding confines. Why play with glue with marginally more flaws independent of their designed toolkit? When I have Fukua getting her health back to stabilize her inconsistency, how do I justify her over Annie?

You could go in a triangle of
Annie: DHC damage, better assists
Double: DHC utility, better neutral
Squigly: Stronger point value, less powerful DHCs

But mapping all of this out requires the nonexistent time.

It's not fighting Annie. It's fighting the philosophy and execution.
 

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One big thing about Umbrella that several people have mentioned disliking is the slightly excessive Ravenous funneling that she is built around. Umbrella's Hunger mechanic is a very interesting tool with a lot of potential depth, but currently the only thing she'd built to do is "stay in Ravenous for literally the entire match". I understand that part of her design is to reward players for maintaining the narrow window, but when you design a character with essentially 4 entirely separate stances and then make all but one of them nigh useless, it feels a bit like potential being squandered. Overstuffed is really the black sheep here. It has some thematic potential with her bubble moves being stronger, but ultimately it's dragged down by how horrible everything else about the mode is. I'm not saying Overstuffed should be as good as Ravenous is currently, but I and many others do feel like she could have her strengths tweaked and divvied up a little more evenly across her stances to make her a more appealing character. So here's a collection of ideas for a potential Umbrella rework from myself and the rest of the Skullgirls Discord to make Umbrella's states a little more dynamic:

Overstuffed:

- Max 3 bubbles on the field
- All bubbles stay active when Umbrella is hit
- Wishmaker travels fullscreen
- P'tooie bubbles ignore projectiles
- 5HP has a larger reflection window
- 5HP shoots an eye projectile when reflecting

The idea here is to make Overstuffed a sort of "Ranged neutral" stance, with her Bubbles being capable of counter-zoning and pressuring opponents at longer distances, while Umbrella suffers more at close range due to her worse frame data. Overall, Overstuffed is best at long range and worse up close, a stark contrast from her other modes that offers some more unique and interesting play.

Satiated:

- Max 2 bubbles on the field
- All bubbles stay active when Umbrella is hit
- Base Throw launches closer with fewer chomps, allowing for more (possibly meterless) conversions

Satiated remains a well-rounded base stance with a focus on pressure and space control. Her bubble game is a bit weaker in this, but they get the job done of extending her reach and countering incoming opponents.

Ravenous:

- Max 1 bubble on the field
- All bubbles disappear when Umbrella is hit
- Ravenous "Finishers" (Rush, Tongue Twister, Salt Grinder) have their overall damage greatly increased, but have much less potential for meterless follow-ups.
ex) Ravenous Salt Grinder sets combo scaling back to 100% on hit, but each chomp scales the damage back up to 30%, in addition to normal damage scaling. It also no longer staggers.

Ravenous is being tweaked from the "Does literally everything" mode to the "close range mixups and finishers" mode. As Umbrella's fastest state, it focuses on staying up close and mixing up the opponent. Umbrella's specials in Ravenous also deal more damage as dramatic finishing moves, but also lose much of their combo utility, forcing you to use them as a last resort cash out to confirm a kill.

Starving:

- nothing lol

Starving sucks and it should stuck, it's both thematically appropriate and hilarious gameplay-wise.

Global/other:

- Puddle limit raised to 6 for more freedom with setplay opportunities
- Make Rush faster and give it better hitboxes
- Remove Rush's unblockable on rising properties
- speed up 6LP in all states.
- 5HP projectile invulnerability on startup
 
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Now that Evo is finished and Fortune remains at the forefront of a lot of top player teams, I figure it's a great time to share my suggested Fortune changes to keep her more in line with the rest of the cast.

Raw damage changes
- el gato damage 900/1000/1100 -> 900/950/1000 (overall damage nerf as m.gato will no longer does as much at higher scalings due to sub 1k damage)
- st.hp damage 1000 -> 900 (gives a reason to use cr.hp in the beginning of the combo changing her routes slightly, as well as lowering damage on the cr.lk st.hp string used to poke rather safely)
- nom damage 216 x8 -> 197 x8 (removes about 80 damage when used in normal routing and 150 damage when it connects raw)

Hitbox changes
1659816434580.png

- j.lk
- should be given one more startup frame
- the hitbox should not fully extend until the second active frame of the move
- the hitbox that extends below her leg and is not attached to her limb should be removed making the lowest hitting hitbox only a threat when the move is properly spaced

1659817067684.png

- Notes:
- this should remove rising j.lk hitting beowulf and eliza
- slower overall move with the hurtbox proceeding the hitbox should make this move much easier to fight overall
- Fortune will no longer cleanly happy birthday the opponent removing some of the overpowering consistency of the move and making it much harder for her to hit dp assists startup during pressure (Note: This includes hitting the head and the opponent at the same time, very much hurting the consistency if not removing multiple headless loops in the corner)

Headless Mechanic Change
- The head can no longer be hit while on cooldown by Fortune or assists, however enemies are free to attack the head as they wish or do not wish to.
- Notes:
- This should lead to scenarios where fortune no longer can use the head to get in while simultaneously using that pressure to safely reset the head to continue pressure without burning an assist
- Fortune will have to be much more careful about utilizing zoom! + sneeze/nom to bully the opponents in neutral as she will be forced to wait out the increased cooldown instead of simply resetting it
- Opponents will have a much bigger window to approach/punish fortune as the head will no longer be reset in pressure in the corner after using nom/sneeze to beat reversals and keep fortune safe
 
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Now that Evo is finished and Fortune remains at the forefront of a lot of top player teams, I figure it's a great time to share my suggested Fortune changes to keep her more in line with the rest of the cast.

Raw damage changes
- el gato damage 900/1000/1100 -> 900/950/1000 (overall damage nerf as m.gato will no longer does as much at higher scalings due to sub 1k damage)
- st.hp damage 1000 -> 900 (gives a reason to use cr.hp in the beginning of the combo changing her routes slightly, as well as lowering damage on the cr.lk st.hp string used to poke rather safely)
- nom damage 216 x8 -> 197 x8 (removes about 80 damage when used in normal routing and 150 damage when it connects raw)

Hitbox changes
View attachment 16490
- j.lk
- should be given one more startup frame
- the hitbox should not fully extend until the second active frame of the move
- the hitbox that extends below her leg and is not attached to her limb should be removed making the lowest hitting hitbox only a threat when the move is properly spaced

View attachment 16492
- Notes:
- this should remove rising j.lk hitting beowulf and eliza
- slower overall move with the hurtbox proceeding the hitbox should make this move much easier to fight overall
- Fortune will no longer cleanly happy birthday the opponent removing some of the overpowering consistency of the move and making it much harder for her to hit dp assists startup during pressure (Note: This includes hitting the head and the opponent at the same time, very much hurting the consistency if not removing multiple headless loops in the corner)

Headless Mechanic Change
- The head can no longer be hit while on cooldown by Fortune or assists, however enemies are free to attack the head as they wish or do not wish to.
- Notes:
- This should lead to scenarios where fortune no longer can use the head to get in while simultaneously using that pressure to safely reset the head to continue pressure without burning an assist
- Fortune will have to be much more careful about utilizing zoom! + sneeze/nom to bully the opponents in neutral as she will be forced to wait out the increased cooldown instead of simply resetting it
- Opponents will have a much bigger window to approach/punish fortune as the head will no longer be reset in pressure in the corner after using nom/sneeze to beat reversals and keep fortune safe

Edit: Forgot to mention the metergain bug should probably be removed. 104% -> 100% normal metergain.
Big brother Komodo typed up all of this and forgot to mention meter gain.
 
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Thoughts on Annie?
I didn’t mention Annie once? I don’t have articulated thoughts for her why should I have to bring her up. It’s not like fortune needs anyone to two touch the opponent.
 

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Valentine Painwheel Cerebella
I didn’t mention Annie once? I don’t have articulated thoughts for her why should I have to bring her up. It’s not like fortune needs anyone to two touch the opponent.
What enables that whole team is Annie, Annie on top 8 EVO did a lot of work, she shines on that team as an assist and as a point after the kill. So that whole meta thing targeting only MF bothers me.

I do agree that MF is one of the best characters in the game, but lets not pretend that Annie is not the one that brought on that meta.
 
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KomodoSwagDragon

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What enables that whole team is Annie, Annie on top 8 EVO did a lot of work, she shines on that team as an assist and as a point after the kill. So that whole meta thing targeting only MF bothers me.

I do agree that MF is one of the best characters in the game, but lets not pretend that Annie is not the one that brought on that meta.
I thought everyone wanted both of them nerfed? I only have opinions on ms fortune. Someone else can go do a deep dive into how they think Annie should be nerfed. Smh, why am I supposed to deliver everyone the full package of balance changes we are a community. Offer feedback on what I did say not on what I didn’t. If you think Annie should be nerfed why don’t you write up a list of changes you think Annie should have.
 
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KomodoSwagDragon

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Ms. Fortune Big Band Double
What enables that whole team is Annie, Annie on top 8 EVO did a lot of work, she shines on that team as an assist and as a point after the kill. So that whole meta thing targeting only MF bothers me.

I do agree that MF is one of the best characters in the game, but lets not pretend that Annie is not the one that brought on that meta.
Fortune doesn't need anything from anyone outside of neutral, and annie dp isn't anything special in regards to the other dp assists.
 
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Eructhonous

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Big brother Komodo typed up all of this and forgot to mention meter gain.
Sorry if this is a joke that I didn't get, but several people have posted in this thread in the last few weeks specifically about how Ms Fortune's meter gain is intended and gives her a place on a team, and frankly its getting a bit tiring to hear the same thing over and over again refuted time and time again. The character doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground, as doing so could remove her only meta relevant place (to my knowledge) on a team as a hyperspecialized point battery.
 

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Sorry if this is a joke that I didn't get, but several people have posted in this thread in the last few weeks specifically about how Ms Fortune's meter gain is intended and gives her a place on a team, and frankly its getting a bit tiring to hear the same thing over and over again refuted time and time again. The character doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground, as doing so could remove her only meta relevant place (to my knowledge) on a team as a hyperspecialized point battery.
Meter gain was literally mike z's post it note for "if i had to nerf fortune" read the thread bro
 
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DDJames

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Thoughts on Annie?
Really think annie is the biggest problem right now and she make some others characters obsolete, also all top 4 played annie somepoint!
she needs to be the priority of the nerfs in my humble opinion!
 

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Sorry if this is a joke that I didn't get, but several people have posted in this thread in the last few weeks specifically about how Ms Fortune's meter gain is intended and gives her a place on a team, and frankly its getting a bit tiring to hear the same thing over and over again refuted time and time again. The character doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground, as doing so could remove her only meta relevant place (to my knowledge) on a team as a hyperspecialized point battery.
How is the two touch machine, massive corner carry double snap death dealer with busted max undizzy looping me to death character playing fullscreen footsies with their stage 2 puppet starter with the tiny jumping hurt box and oppressive confirms just a hyperspecialized point battery.
Did you accidentally load up an old build of SG and haven't played a real Fortune in the last year? It's an entire kit that needs to be looked at especially with people pushing optimization to its current point.
 

Silktail

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Robo Fortune Filia Double
I feel like the only people who think that don't play Double very much at all.

If we're gonna talk about reverting her nerfs to be more in line with 2016 levels of power, I feel like the only nerfs that should unconditionally stay are the airthrow no longer hitting assists and current catheads dhc duration.

As cathartic as it would be, I don't want Annie to receive the same treatment that Double got in regards to the nerfs.
HARD AGREE FACADE

I think exploring some reversions like the old jhp nerf could also be interesting but I dont know how ppl would feel since it actually made routing easier in many cases
 

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Ms. Fortune Unknown Filia
I'm repeating myself but let the battery character be the battery character. She doesn't even have the highest meter build.
Having the meter AND damage together is too much, for sure. Her ass should not be enabling two-touches with her point toolkit. There've already been several posts suggesting damage nerfs, and I thought Komodo's jLK changes sounded reasonable since IAD jLK overheading you with a fast sword normal from 3 character lengths away is a bit OD.

But to nerf her on point AND her team value when she already has mediocre assists? I really don't get the fixation on the meter gain.
Maybe changes that widen the difference between damage routes (which are still less damaging than what she currently does) and meter-building routes would be a better approach? Then the person getting hit would gain a ton of meter without exploding.
 
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Silktail

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Robo Fortune Filia Double
Cw: umbrella effort post

Problem-umby setups are inconsistent and particular (barring her kara normal setups which are committal but more consistent). Their difficulty often means that being expressive is hard and most of your brain power goes into choosing and performing an option. Additionally, as labbing progresses, people are finding less and less reasons to go into overstuffed. To address this i think streamlining the mixup tools she has is a good idea. Along with giving her more hunger control/overstuffed bonuses.

1: jmk float - make jmk float indefinite and the fall an option via command- the low is useable if not for its predictability, also I should be able to fall without floating.
2: otgless hbubble(all versions) - make smp2(satiated/rav) OR chp1(all 3) have more hitstun to allow consistent conversions into otgless h bubble- this allows umbrella to have more expressive mixup scenarios by having a consistent way into hbubble without using otg
3: 6 puddles!? - I think that the 6 puddles that @MachiTheFool mentioned could also be helpful in allowing her to freestyle in more situations.

These 3 changes will give her access to more mixups in more situations. She should be able to freestyle like everyone else, but she seems to NEED a puddle to get a decent setup. Many of her mixups feel railroaded and can force u to use a bunch of ud to get a decent setup.(except the sqrt setup pretty much). Jmk is a useless tool, literally try and find footage of that float working in a high level its a white whale.

4: m bobble - I’m begging for an m bobble hunger reversion. having its hunger consumption reduced was supposed to allow her to m bobble in neutral more but I find that it just makes it harder to play neutral aswell as nerfing her ability to combo down her hunger bar

Example: ravenous 2 pips - I L bubble(no hold) M bubble, I am satiated now with my only option to get back to rav being h bubble (LAGGY, SAD)

Do it with the hold and youll be starving. If they were equal in hunger consumption this problem would be solved and shed have better control over her bar.

M bubble loops are already sub optimal damage, and require a decent bit of ud to set up.

5: overstuffed command grab - this thing sucks, its short range, 15 frames(fuzzy jumpable) when side by side with her lows, if it whifs u dont even have a dp anymore, and it does a whopping maximum damage of 337. This should wallbounce back farther so umbrella can otg convert off of it, or at least convert with a puddle like the rest of her command grab versions.

6: overstuffed air punches - let umbrella do the fall command out of any overstuffed punch(on whiff). This would give overstuffed more properties and options, while still keeping it slow, requiring her to have a puddle to make this option worth it is also notable. This means she has to use her other overstuffed tooling(bubbles) to make this option good, which goes along with her gameplan. Additionally it gives utility to her most fun overstuffed button to use in neutral imo jhp. Lastly, the thematic reality of umbrella falling over bc hungern is now to heavy just makes me smile.
 

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I think exploring some reversions like the old jhp nerf could also be interesting but I dont know how ppl would feel since it actually made routing easier in many cases

It's certainly very interesting to think about, though I think over time we have seen that Double jHP change turn into a sort of "buff" or a net positive change.

Though it has been a long time since then (and boy do I miss jLP jMK jHP cross-under etc) but if it were to be reverted would we lose the universal happy birthday carry with jLP jMP jMK jHP, and also a few other things?

Dunno what needs to change with this character but level 5 super is giga bad, teacup is only used for loops for undizzy and cMK is a weird weird button that turns hit confirms into drops at certain ranges (see: Val cMK).
 

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Robo Fortune Filia Double
It's certainly very interesting to think about, though I think over time we have seen that Double jHP change turn into a sort of "buff" or a net positive change.

Though it has been a long time since then (and boy do I miss jLP jMK jHP cross-under etc) but if it were to be reverted would we lose the universal happy birthday carry with jLP jMP jMK jHP, and also a few other things?

Dunno what needs to change with this character but level 5 super is giga bad, teacup is only used for loops for undizzy and cMK is a weird weird button that turns hit confirms into drops at certain ranges (see: Val cMK).
im unsure if we'd lose those honestly

i have a feeling that we were just missing jab confirms back then but truely idk

i dont see how u could ruin that confirm without gutting the hitstun
 

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It's certainly very interesting to think about, though I think over time we have seen that Double jHP change turn into a sort of "buff" or a net positive change.

Though it has been a long time since then (and boy do I miss jLP jMK jHP cross-under etc) but if it were to be reverted would we lose the universal happy birthday carry with jLP jMP jMK jHP, and also a few other things?
Fun fact: Any time it can be mentioned of the way things USED to be, instead of having to rely on memory, we can actually still test it for ourselves. Most of the old patches are available to play (and have working online).

For jHP corner carry happy birthday, you can, on this patch, fast fall it in order to continue the corner carry. While I doubt this is the way people actually did it back in the day, I hopped in the lab and made this:


So, in fact, this wouldn't necessarily be something we'd lose with this change. However, fast falling it is more difficult.
 
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Stuff

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Quotes for Stuff.

Thanks! That's actually where I'm a little confused because even if the characters were more consistent, Annie still has much better team utility than the entire cast while having the best AA jab in the game, a really strong projectile that can save her a better damage super and a better conversion super all wrapped in one package. (This isn't to say she's the strongest but I think she has more pros than cons than the other support characters)

Which is why I'm having hard time picturing it y'know? I'm really interested in what that means on a per character basis like what does "Like Annie" mean for characters like PW, Eliza, Double, etc. Because it'll take more than just consistency to be like her, that's how I feel at least. I just think I could get behind it more easily if I better understood what exactly that means for every character.

Regarding Fortune (again again again) at this point I'm sure the devs are tired of this and already know what they want to do I'd still like to share a few things.

-decap attack loops obv should be removed or do no damage (I like the idea of stalling tactics, sorry.)
-head shouldn't break combos
-nom should stop if fortune blocks
-damage reduction should def be done on both forms
-fiber should be more minus and more easily land cancel punishable
-I didn't mind the jLK nerf and not sure why it got reverted
-Here's one thing I thought was inconsistent regarding the hurtbox nerf (which I hope doesn't come back but if it does I think it shouldn't apply to her double jump to maintain her evasiveness and this way if Fortune wants to avoid something she MUST use her double jump [or jLP] and if she gets hit out of the air after dj she will have less options due to it not refreshing until you jump so air resetting her might be more useful) was that the fiber jump itself was not changed, iirc the fiber jump hurtbox and the regular jump hurtbox are two different hurtboxes so my suggestion would be to make the fiber jump hitbox a little more bigger to better hit the whiffed fiber jump itself. (This way some distances doing fiber jump might not be wise but maintaining the mobility and the ability to go over projectiles)
-Personally I think the meter gain is fine, this character needs some level of utility and I don't think it should be damage and her assists are still somewhat lacking so keeping the meter would be ok imo.
-More characters should be able to hit the head behind them, if she's going to have this weakness it should be more prevalent but currently some characters have a hard time hitting the head right behind them to actually punish it and go into launcher loops which would help scare the headless player more
-Maybe make headless supers not invuln? [except level 3] Not sure about this one but it would def emphasize the """glass cannon""" thing. (in addition to being able to hit the head more easily but I think the above nerfs would be more than enough.)

But this way I think Fortune has a little more risk involved for what she can do while maintaining her ability to be a point character battery.

I just think there's better ways to nerf stuff without neutering a character completely, if anything some characters could just stand to build MORE meter. (It's okay if we disagree tho)

I'd really like to talk about other characters.
 
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Silktail

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Robo Fortune Filia Double
Sorry if this is a joke that I didn't get, but several people have posted in this thread in the last few weeks specifically about how Ms Fortune's meter gain is intended and gives her a place on a team, and frankly its getting a bit tiring to hear the same thing over and over again refuted time and time again. The character doesn't need to be nerfed into the ground, as doing so could remove her only meta relevant place (to my knowledge) on a team as a hyperspecialized point battery.
she can simultaneously be a battery and gaining too much bar

ntm that as a battery she has access to more safe pressure on more parts of the screen than any other battery

additionally, while some batteries generate tons of bar on hit/block and some in neutral with whiffable specials, fortune does both pretty well
 
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Thanks! That's actually where I'm a little confused because even if the characters were more consistent, Annie still has much better team utility than the entire cast while having the best AA jab in the game, a really strong projectile that can save her a better damage super and a better conversion super all wrapped in one package.

Which why I'm having hard time picturing it y'know? I'm really interested in what that means on a per character basis like what does "Like Annie" mean for characters like PW, Eliza, Double, etc. Because it'll take more than just consistency to be like her, that's how I feel at least.

Regarding Fortune (again again again) at this point I'm sure the devs are tired of this and already know what they want to do I'd still like to share a few things.

-decap attack loops obv should be removed or do no damage (I like the idea of stalling tactics, sorry.)
-head shouldn't break combos
-nom should stop if fortune blocks
-damage reduction should def be done on both forms
-fiber should be more minus and more easily land cancel punishable
-I didn't mind the jLK nerf and not sure why it got reverted
-Here's one thing I thought was inconsistent regarding the hurtbox nerf (which I hope doesn't come back but if it does I think it shouldn't apply to her double jump to maintain her evasiveness and this way if Fortune wants to avoid something she MUST use her double jump [or jLP] and if she gets hit out of the air after dj she will have less options due to it not refreshing until you jump so air resetting her might be more useful) was that the fiber jump itself was not changed, iirc the fiber jump hurtbox and the regular jump hurtbox are two different hurtboxes so my suggestion would be to make the fiber jump hitbox a little more bigger to better hit the whiffed fiber jump itself. (This way some distances doing fiber jump might not be wise but maintaining the mobility and the ability to go over projectiles)
-Personally I think the meter gain is fine, this character needs some level of utility and I don't think it should be damage and her assists are still somewhat lacking so keeping the meter would be ok imo.
-More characters should be able to hit the head behind them, if she's going to have this weakness it should be more prevalent but currently some characters have a hard time hitting the head right behind them to actually punish it and go into launcher loops which would help scare the headless player more
-Maybe make headless supers not invuln? [except level 3] Not sure about this one but it would def emphasize the """glass cannon""" thing. (in addition to being able to hit the head more easily but I think the above nerfs would be more than enough.)

But this way I think Fortune has a little more risk involved for what she can do while maintaining her ability to be a point character battery.

I just think there's better ways to nerf stuff without neutering a character completely, if anything some characters could just stand to build MORE meter. (It's okay if we disagree tho)

I'd really like to talk about other characters.
Definitely would be nice to talk about the rest of the cast as well as getting any confirmation on a vaguely specific group future of positive changes outside of nerfs soon.

Fortune:

Speaking of nerfs and fortune, agree w/khaos & most of this. While i think a couple are a bit much, Fortunes damage & maybe 1 or 2 hitboxes changed a *tad* along with more significant cooldown on headoff, I wouldnt wanna see many changes if any. fortune for all intents & purposes is a point character. She's supposed to come out the gate swinging & meter gain being a point character i dont see much problem with. Or her meter gain considering when switched out, she breaks DHC momentum (unless lvl3 in corner, in which case kinda deserve it at that point).

Adjusting damage so she needs more engagement to kill in the first place would take care of a lot including the 2-touch convo

On fiber i know it's a hot topic, but i dont think much should be changed regarding frame data. Fiber is her breakout move and each character is supposed to have a couple moves clearly better than baseline. She's not a good mid or anchor. And assists almost as bad as Val, saved by fiber. On point rekka & (air) kick special arent used much by themselves. headoff is gonna get a significant nerf regardless. if head being damaged is easier/cooldown lasts longer there's no need for changing nom & other moves. And i think supers staying the same in terms of invuln is fine. She's not a very good team player so having more flexibility on front end im absolutely ok with.

Fortune right now isnt played very much despite making a mark recently, i think it's important to remember that. 2-touching's the main conversation so i think it's good to take care of that first & im sure everything else will follow. Giving opponent significantly more meter also is a great solution. Let her keep shenanigans, but just make her work harder & have to guess right more.

Last Thought:

Bridget dropped for strive & its interesting because they gave her a big kit. who knows how effective she'll be after a month, but I thought it was more interesting her guts (damage resistance) is 0. So she's a big glass canon & balanaced that way. What im trying to say is, balancing with frame data & subpar properties is heavy handed in SG. People dont even end up using many of the moves for intended use, ignoring many completely outside of combos. I wish focus went towards meter gain, damage, scaling & those things first instead of cutting knee caps at moves themselves like throne for eliza. Bigger more risky moves, give a bigger reward. less committal ones introduce more scaling, but the biggest problem is feeling like you literally cant even use your kit expressively for situations they were designed for. Realistically you can only use throne from far screen & stay safe...all other contexts are out with such bad recovery. As one example. That's the best way I can explain what i believe is meant by 'like annie.' Having moves that *work.* Not 'fine.' something people *want* to use in a number of scenarios.
 
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05mario

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Speaking of nerfs and fortune, agree w/khaos & most of this. While i think a couple are a bit much, Fortunes damage & maybe 1 or 2 hitboxes changed a *tad* along with more significant cooldown on headoff, I wouldnt wanna see many changes if any. fortune for all intents & purposes is a point character. She's supposed to come out the gate swinging & meter gain being a point character i dont see much problem with. Or her meter gain considering when switched out, she breaks DHC momentum (unless lvl3 in corner, in which case kinda deserve it at that point).
My brother in christ, if we don't nerf fortune meter gain she will still be doing the same things she is doing now, but in different ways. Her meter gain is one of the main reasons fortune is so top tier so not touching that is going to keep a lot of her very dumb shenanigans. Imo the way to go with fortune nerfs is to heavily nerf the meter gain, change some damage numbers, and some hitbox reductions.
 
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