The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[Nuuance]

perhaps ive read too fast & im gonna have to get back to it...it was a lot but overall this feels pretty disappointing. Not the skullgirls way I mean idk. The way things are now anyone could argue either side so I get it, but this game has been so conservative after SG's reinvigoration. It just feels obstinate.

I cant pretend to know more than people who work on the game daily but as a player & knowing how it makes me feel vs updates in other games like strive...im not seeing it. Cool seeing Annie's main mechanic go in a direction many thought it would years ago but idk, so many cool additions couldve happened similarly. Painwheel, Eliza (with devoted thread but not mentioned), Fukua, almost each character getting new toys to play with.

With that said I dont wanna come off negatively, it's a miracle this game came back to life in the first place & devs, disagreements or not have done a lot. I simply disagree with a couple things. Hopefully SG continues to hold whatever audience it has and get more.

 

[Midiman]

perhaps ive read too fast & im gonna have to get back to it...it was a lot but overall this feels pretty disappointing. Not the skullgirls way I mean idk. The way things are now anyone could argue either side so I get it, but this game has been so conservative after SG's reinvigoration it's like why bother. I'm a broken record im sure but this process as a whole I really dont get. It just feels stubborn. Majority 'no i dont wanna change this it's fine.' it's reasonable saying it might just not be my game anymore while others enjoy it. But that's the thing, I havent heard anyone talking about SG lately. Having been part of things from the start of PC it feels like a whimper ignoring expression & being fixated on *buffs* being bad.

why is it other games bring substantial changes to each character & people continue on having fun? Nothings ever perfect but it's art, not science. I cant pretend to know more than people who work on the game daily but as a player & knowing how it makes me feel vs updates in other games like strive...im not seeing it. Cool seeing Annie's main mechanic go in a direction many thought it would years ago but idk, so many cool additions couldve happened similarly. Painwheel, Eliza, Fukua, almost each character getting new toys to play with.

With that said I dont wanna come off negatively, it's a miracle this game came back to life in the first place & devs, disagreements or not have done a lot. I simply disagree with how it's been & is being handled along w/most feedback being ignored. Hopefully SG continues to hold whatever audience it has and get more.

Do you have examples of games bringing substantial Changes to each Character?

I think it's easy to say "I see many changes, I wish we had those" but I think it's easy to forget Skullgirls went through *quite a bit of changes* fundamentally for it's first few years. And those changes had knock-on effects that had to be addressed!

You can, also, simply address each change. I think that's fine, too

 

[Nuuance]

Do you have examples of games bringing substantial Changes to each Character?

I think it's easy to say "I see many changes, I wish we had those" but I think it's easy to forget Skullgirls went through *quite a bit of changes* fundamentally for it's first few years. And those changes had knock-on effects that had to be addressed!

You can, also, simply address each change. I think that's fine, too

for sure & thanks for replying. strive at least every other season. notably this most recent one, s3

[Ver1.29] Patch Notes | NEWS | GUILTY GEAR -STRIVE- | ARC SYSTEM WORKS

GUILTY GEAR -STRIVE- OFFICIAL SITE

www.guiltygear.com

new system mechanics i understand not focusing on rn but a couple were introduced as well.
But pretty much all characters, excluding asuka or johnny (recent DLC) got new things. Could argue Pot really didnt get much, but idea being majority of the cast got significant (positive) changes. Definitely some light nerfs, but more things to be happy about than otherwise.

Over time there've been changes in SG, but to evergreen characters I can't really think of anything that made me want to pick up the game & lab or perfect them. that's more of an opinion thing tho. Eliza, fukua, squigly, painwheel, etc...i guess that's what im referring to. Eliza & beo/robo got put to a baseline. That's great! But like i was saying, there was a whole thread on new stuff wanted because of the feeling of lack for what's there.
- like squiglys stances having more identity/time-stop more interesting (same confirm vectors, just new expression [in squigly thread])
- painwheel install/hatred guard being much more integral
- eliza's assist specials at the very least being more interesting/blood serving a better purpose
- fukua's shadows having more expression in general

things like that. Essentially that addictive loop making you come back. Robos lvl3 was one of the coolest changes ive ever seen ingame & i dont even play her. But i enjoy the challenge & love how some who wanna go the extra mile have an entire new layer of play to delve into. She has unique mechanics with movement & cancels...honestly her design's incredible.

Absolutely dont expect everyone to agree, i can be an outlier...I just find myself going 'that's it?' Not in a snarky way but genuinely, is that it?

 

[Midiman]

new system mechanics i understand not focusing on rn but a couple were introduced as well.
But pretty much all characters, excluding asuka or johnny (recent DLC) got new things. Could argue Pot really didnt get much, but idea being majority of the cast got significant (positive) changes. Definitely some light nerfs, but more things to be happy about than otherwise.

I think it's easy to add new things to a game that was intentionally Sparse, which is not an insult. They clearly added what they felt was necessary for the Characters to shine, and only after waiting a good, long time (The game released in June 2021), did they really end up adding new moves (as a System mechanic?). Them making sweeping changes to better fit that system mechanic, is another story

There have been plenty of changes for Characters, Systems and Assists ever since SDE! Even back then, Fundamental changes to the systems have been introduced! Those may not be as flashy as say "whoa everyone gets one weird new unique attack that costs Burst" but.. well.. there are characters with Conditional unblockables, meterless fullscreen beams, and a 2f armored reversal.
https://wiki.gbl.gg/w/Skullgirls/Patch_Notes#Slightly_Different_Edition for the curious

It's also worth considering how much that affects the game. Do you want NEW tools or do you want the EXISTING tools to be more valuable to you?

Also consider the cost of adding new moves! It says a lot that it only truly happened a handful of times in the history of the game.

Over time there've been changes in SG, but to evergreen characters I can't really think of anything that made me want to pick up the game & lab or perfect them. that's more of an opinion thing tho.

That's definitely on you. It would be much more useful to find out _what exactly you would do_ to make them more exciting to you, instead of just stating "i'm nonplussed". Being nonplussed is fine! But without explaining in deeper detail, you're robbing anyone of the chance to actually find any points to agree with you, including *points that might actually address a shortcoming with the Character or System in question*

I think it's pretty easy to compare "X thing is getting lots of changes" without seeing how different those pipelines are, but that's not really much in the way of a regular player

tl;dr yeah I understand you but also *what* things

 

[Mirin]

ELIZA

• I think some things about Sekhmet could be made a little bit less frustrating to deal with, with more obvious windows to go for a hit on her (if you risk it) when playing neutral with her or dealing with her mix ups.
• Sekhmet backflip likely won't be allowed if the point blocks it even if it hits an assist, just like how Upperkhat and Fiber work, for consistency.
• Crimson Scourge shouldn't work on dead characters.
• Maybe Throne can try red bounce instead of blue bounce.
• Crimson Scourge as an Eliza super (not a Sekhmet super) after Eliza taunts as suggested elsewhere could be a fun experiment. It would let her DHC into it after taunting, but not from round start if she's on second.

Overall i like the changes to the game, except for Eliza. I have no problem with sehkmet being more punisheable but if the strongest part of her kit its gonna get nerf when she already a weak character i hope bigger buffs than a red bounce on Throne or a really situational DHC with a taunt, i also will say, agreeing with Kima, that its the right direction to buff her DHC it brings more team variety wich its her biggest problem and it always good more team variety.

 

[SeaJay]

I just find myself going 'that's it?' Not in a snarky way but genuinely, is that it?

The game's 12 years old. It's in a completely different lifestage to Strive. I don't think most of us want SG to get turned on its head via substantial character and system reworks, they just want a slightly more streamlined/balanced version of the same game they've been enjoying for this long. It's time for refinement, not bombastic shake-ups.

 

[Nuuance]

I think it's easy to add new things to a game that was intentionally Sparse, which is not an insult. They clearly added what they felt was necessary for the Characters to shine, and only after waiting a good, long time (The game released in June 2021), did they really end up adding new moves (as a System mechanic?). Them making sweeping changes to better fit that system mechanic, is another story

There have been plenty of changes for Characters, Systems and Assists ever since SDE! Even back then, Fundamental changes to the systems have been introduced! Those may not be as flashy as say "whoa everyone gets one weird new unique attack that costs Burst" but.. well.. there are characters with Conditional unblockables, meterless fullscreen beams, and a 2f armored reversal.
https://wiki.gbl.gg/w/Skullgirls/Patch_Notes#Slightly_Different_Edition for the curious

It's also worth considering how much that affects the game. Do you want NEW tools or do you want the EXISTING tools to be more valuable to you?

Also consider the cost of adding new moves! It says a lot that it only truly happened a handful of times in the history of the game.

That's definitely on you. It would be much more useful to find out _what exactly you would do_ to make them more exciting to you, instead of just stating "i'm nonplussed". Being nonplussed is fine! But without explaining in deeper detail, you're robbing anyone of the chance to actually find any points to agree with you, including *points that might actually address a shortcoming with the Character or System in question*

I think it's pretty easy to compare "X thing is getting lots of changes" without seeing how different those pipelines are, but that's not really much in the way of a regular player

tl;dr yeah I understand you but also *what* things

changes over time is something youd hope most modern games go through though. i dont think that's something 'special.' Definitely grateful for it keeping the game kicking, but it doesnt negate threads and post after post of others ideas on the matter or additions. Not just talking about myself.

i dont think the 'new toys' thing is just on me. ive dropped a ton of notes in the squigly forum delving into her in a way that is almost obsessive. I feel like ive done a good job of looking at that. I get 'this game does this, why dont we' sounding like that, but it's true. I'm not saying be like strive, im saying at the stage SG is at it feels behind. People forget a lot was largely unfinished. Most fgs add new considerable things after a certain point. Oh and i mean current & new tools.

The game's 12 years old. It's in a completely different lifestage to Strive. I don't think most of us want SG to get turned on its head via substantial character and system reworks, they just want a slightly more streamlined/balanced version of the same game they've been enjoying for this long. It's time for refinement, not bombastic shake-ups.

The threads/feedback...i dont really know what else to say. I'm a small drop in the bucket compared to other voices. There's pages & pages of it. Not including the defunct features or feedback page on 'cord a couple years ago (wow time flies).

Anyways that's pretty much it. Some like how it is now, i cant hate. Without posting private unsolicited convos or posts, for every 1 person who says it's fine, there's many others with different views than that but dont talk about it publicly or bother w/forums anymore because it's easy saying no. if an honest survey went out asking people what they genuinely want people would be surprised. Technically we already have reams of content here but yeah.

Like i said tho, it's just a game & i still appreciate everything everyone's done & other players big contributions. Back to work.

 

[tossle]

Valentines' stuff sounds honestly great, QoL is very nice and the bypass change while understandably hesitant I do think every val player on the planet would rather see the move improved for consistency and then further adjusted to fit in regards to damage, if need be. I will have to collect a more thorough list of other QoL changes for her in another post, but so far I'm very excited to see what happens!

Dahlia stuff sounds mostly fine, I'm curious about what the other non-ice shots would be changed. jHK scaling feels kinda random, and having played dahlia for a good few months now I understand its a big part of her neutral gameplan, but on hit the conversions feel so... temperamental, and she's already low damage enough as is (which I'm mostly fine with, I should mention) so I would hope to see some changes to make it more consistent, if she's going to get scaled for it.

2/5 special shot placement on reload is damn near exactly what I was hoping for, so I'm very excited about that. M reload being given an actual use would be hype too, and if it means some more influence on her ammo selection outside of spending bar, that would be even more exciting. I always wanted a way to combo into reload and be able to use the RNG shot given without it being almost wholly impractical, as routing for the third shot even with assists will pretty much always max out undizzy. I should stress I also don't want or think she should be able to reload and consistently access special shots super easily, I just think 2/5 would give a good middle ground of choosing between spending undizzy for the meterless and random shot setup, or spending bar to save on undizzy and go into a planned sequence. Both are fun, but I just never really get to do the former.

The band section gave me a good chuckle, bless up for your work Liam

 

[Iso]

• Summary: For as long as Beowulf remains a character that wants to taunt in the middle of a combo with an assist call (due to how hype building works), he will probably pilot the same as before. I expect him to lose his effective 0 bar two touches (!) in some of the global two touch changes mentioned way above, so this may be our collective best shot to give him different ways to be played. If the Beowulf + A-Train players want him to stay with the same gameplan, with the same assist dependencies, we'll have to figure that out too. Thoughts welcome!

Thanks again for the great write-up! I think I have a unique perspective on his position in today's meta.

I've been playing the old Penpen team, Parasoul/Cilia Slide Double/Beowulf, for a while. Beo is the fake anchor; my gameplan is to kill the opposing point with Parasoul, tag to Beo, taunt, and nuke the incoming character for a possible 2-touch or even TOD with resources. I think that this gameplan is fun and rewarding to my strengths as a player; however, it is "unoptimal" as in order to get hype midcombo with Cilia Slide, I sacrifice some my 5HK stagger, some damage, and OTG(picking up with 2MK grab), where Beo with Excellabella or A-Train assist does not have to make these concessions. Beo additionally can't two-touch with Slide without spending meter, another mark against not playing those assists.

It's fairly clear that Beo's current "optimal" gameplan of Beo on point + assist that gets you hype full-combo + neutral assist is incredibly stagnant, but at the same time few other players have been able to make any other gameplan work. At the same time, Beo relies on very specific assists for his most potent rewards on hit. Because of this, I propose that using assists midcombo become a permanent part of his character. This fits his character well, as tag teaming is a common and recognizable trope in pro wrestling. It also would incentivize Beo players to pick different assists to experiment and explore new gameplans and strategies.

One idea could be that when Beo is on point and an assist is used mid-combo(but does not start a combo, so stage 3 onwards), he gets a bar of hype. The sacrifice of damage and some undizzy for unconditional free resources midcombo is more than worth the tradeoff and allows him to experiment with different assists to help with his neutral and mixups. This also grants Beo teams a valid choice between a situationally good assist that leads to his best damage and mixups and assists with worse combo potential and neutral functionality to compensate.

Another idea is that if Beo hits the opponent when he's not on point with an assist(possibly with the same restriction of stage 3+ only), he gets a bar of hype. This remedies his current reliance of the point slot and lets him come in later to run his gameplan without having to work his way through neutral to get the hit.

If the damage changes do go through and Beowulf is unable to two touch trios as effectively, if at all, I think that's an acceptable nerf compared to what I believe are pretty substantial buffs. Another possible compensatory nerf could be to nerf the properties of taunt mid-combo ( slower, etc.) though I think this will only serve to heighten reliance on those hype-granting assists unless properly tuned.

Once again, thank you for the update, and I hope what I had to say here helps!

 

[Taterade]

From the Eliza discord with the blessing of Vending, Halibel, Bootyballspopeyes, JayceyFoo, MyssTari, Itotia, Swergin and least of all myself, presenting proposed Eliza changes and suggestions:


Full invulnerability for Upper Khat Light version: It will still lose to fuzzy setups due to its small hit box, unsafe on block even without chaining into the higher Khats, saves Eliza from every wake up option being covered by throw + assist until she has 3 bars.

Throne being tracked separately from Horus dive and red bouncing will allow it to be used to actually start combos when its used properly against projectile gameplans, as well as not hamstringing Eliza from one of her most used specials in combo.

Sewer Grab as it stands with the current frame data needs to deal roughly 1500 damage to or lose most of its scaling to keep it in line with the other moves of a similar type, as a starter only move that uses OTG and can be easily dodged by characters in neutral.

Sehkmet backdash lock out on point blocking heavies: We’ve been going back and forth on what other changes could done to skeleton but it comes down to many players not liking the existing counter play and downsides for Sehkmet vs taking too much away from Eliza to the point of why even have Sehkmet in the first place. So the consensus is just letting the backdash nerf take effect and see how it goes.

Button properties that weren’t as agreed upon but still wanted to be brought up:

jHP has an extra extended hurtbox on the backside of the move that means mashes on cross up hit even when it should be mutual whiff due to the opponent facing the wrong way completely. Suggestion is to remove the X axis on this to make it inline with where the hitbox is since the hurtboxes on this move already extend beyond the hitboxs below and to the front side.

5MP post first active frame hurtboxes extend too far above eliza punishing her on AA attempts with a move that is already minus on block, suggestion is for the post initial active frame hurtboxes to only reach the top of her microphone.

 

[ReyMercury YT]

BLACK DAHLIA

• Something(s) will change with Ice Shot, and perhaps a few other things for shots.
• JHK confirms may see a scaling penalty.
• H Reload may see changes, but it may not! At the moment, I'm pretty happy with how H is being used, but I could see us changing around the order of where the bullets are loaded into the chamber such as [3 and 5], or[2 and 5], instead of the current [3 and 6].
• M Reload could be more interesting, so if there's an opportunity for control over your ammo choice, it would live here. I will mention that it's (obviously) very intentional Black Dahlia does not have access to: Reload + Pick shot type, Shoot shot type, Reload + Pick shot type, Shoot shot type...
• Empower shouldn't work on corpses and give you the buff.

Hi Liam,
Im only gonna talk about Black Dahlia since thats my area of expertise.
But count me as a (+1) to every universal changes in mind, i love them all.

Fun fact before starting:
The dhc scaling nerf wouldnt stop dahlia two touch routes from two touching since because her dhcs, from and into her, suck so much she is forced to tag out for good damage.
Therefore because she is not using dhcs to two touch the scaling nerfs woudnt stop her current two touch routes from killing.

Special bullets:
Ice shot is currently the undeniable best bullet type to load almost always with Last Call.
I believe a simple change would fix everything and that is removing the multihit.
This would give less metergain on block, its no longer a lockdown so not that abusable on neutral. But it keeps the integrity of ice.
I believe you can nerf this bullet even more but the one thing i wouldnt wanna see tweaked is the time it freezes the opponents for, as its just enough, perfect even, to throw a doily and another bullet and go for a 50/50 mix. It started as the setup bullet before the buffs and has always been that, if it is gonna get nerfed pls consider this in mind.

Next, very important. Since ice is definetly getting nerfed, imho, Shotgun will take place as the bullet type of choice to load on neutral with Last Call.
+7 on block, big low-startup hitbox, converts from throw, best damage and its an overhead. Its gonna be the bullet type i will be loading from then on at least to level up my neutral game.
So possibly you'd wanna think on that, maybe lower the +7 on block to a +2, not that it needs to get nerfed but its a good pointout if ice is getting changed.

You stated other bullets might see some tweaks as well so id like to propose something for Fire Bullet
The second hit of Fire bullet could not go away when you get hit.
Its clear the dev team made bullets go away on getting hit on purpose but the second hit of fire feels odd to go away, and makes resetting with it less scary on mash.

Electric and railgun are currently underused, which i dont think is a problem for railgun as its gimmick is a nieche with a solid logic behind when you wanna use it.
(Fun fact, rail shot is 1-2 frames of extra hitstun apart from being convertable with teleport 2LP)

Electric is perfectly balanced.

Lastly on normal shot.
It'd be nice if 5HK 236HP(Normal) Last Call > dash OTG 5[HP] was an easier link.
Its a key starter string for shotgun loops and some reset setups.
It could be achieved by making the normal shot knock the opponent a bit higher.

jHK scaling nerf:
This hits me off guard, kind of random, i dont understand the reason and would love to hear it.
But even if this goes through its not gonna be day and night for Dahlia as her jHK confirms were so bad already (damage-wise) that you mostly always wanted to reset right away anyways.
(jHK starter combos mostly start with jHK j236LP > jKK jHP > 2MP which eats the stage 2 string and OTG, giving you a combo of about 6k for 1 bar. Dash 2LP 5MK is height dependant, only working near the ground, though it does solve that stage issue and gives 7.3k combos off it)

M/H Reload being revisited:
I appreciate that you guys are taking our feedback on M and H reload being somewhat underwhelming.
H being 2-5 would allow an already existing resource assist playstyle that goes into special bullet resets earlier in the combo, and give H reloading in neutral after calling an assist a much better reward as you can use the front default bullet to go in or convert from jHK and then use the special bullet for followup. The change sounds perfect, you still dont get to 5[HP] reload into bullet mix unless you add 65 more UD to get rid of the front bullet which honestly i prefer this way. With the special bullets on 3rd you straight up cant integrate a special bullet in the combo without using meter.
I wonder if i can find better routes that implement that second special bullet after the changes . Im hyped!

M reload is a hard one to get right.
I dont know how you would make it more interesting. But +1 on it being tweaked!
Rn i use it only on double snaps when i know the order of my bullets and want to load M then H to get the bullet i want in front. Other than that i dont use it cause i either want, or dont want, special bullets in the chamber. So either L or H reload.

Empower on dead bodies:
Sounds completely logical and is consistent with the eliza change on sehkmet. +1

Extra:
I know its being looked at, but friendly reminder that detonating the oil puddless of barrel right before the barrel goes away still drops the opponent as the puddles dissapear mid explosion before getting to the barrel itself.

Concluding thoughts:
Very happy with the potential changes to the game!
All the universal tweaks seem like a foot in the right(?) direction, or at least an interesting one to test!
Thank GOD the top tiers are getting looked at and am so hyped to see what you guys do with dahlia's shots and reload!

 

[ruby_chan]

I think after taking a day to absorb the stuff that was mentioned and wanting to discuss more on the Beowulf side of things and consider what has been mentioned. I think for Beowulf "reworks" I think currently the way he uses hype is good where that is where his damage stems from, whether its from A-train, Excella, Salt Grinder, M Shadow, etc. I've been trying to think of ways that how hype is built can be good for both the team players and solo Beo players.

While I do agree, his "optimal" setup is with assist like a-train helps get the most from both hype and damage and being able to get it from anywhere on screen, I don't think he should be tied to only resource assist to have him be at his upmost potential.

Suggestion: Changing "Every mic drop (only the first mic drop from 5MP counts in a combo, 1/3 level gained)". Possible change for hype can be having Mic Drop build either more hype (from 1/3 to 1/2) for when the first mic drop 5MP counts in a combo or maybe build 1/4 of hype but each mic drop from 5MP counts.

As Liam mentioned, I think if Beo loses his Meterless 2 touch potential due to the global changes, that is fair, although I wouldn't mind he is still able to do it for 1-2 meter.

Another suggestion of Beowulf hype rework is that his damage doesn't get tied to EX throw series, but potentially get more mixups potential from hype itself. This could be having other EX moves to work or Hype gives him his "crouch cancel" potential back.

At the moment, without getting an idea of what's in the works for Beo to give more feedback on with the "hype rework". Just throwing ideas out there as out of pocket it may be, at least to come together with ideas and see how other Beo players feel for it as the main idea would do something that is beneficial for both the Beo team players and solo Beo players.

 

[Bambi]

I'm not a Dahlia player at all, any maybe this is just personal taste, but I've always thought the idea of the different reloads requiring different numbers of "active reload" inputs would be interesting. I understand that adapting to the shots that you get is also part of the character, so this could be totally off-base, and feel free to ignore this entirely if it's not what y'all have in mind for her reload system, but I'd feel remiss if I didn't at least share that idea that's been floating around in my head

L reload gives 6 normal shots, doesn't have an active reload, and is the fastest

M reload gives 5 normal shots, plus one special shot based on the button used to active reload. It has one active reload, is slower than L reload, and is even slower when you miss the active reload. Missing the active reload gives you a random shot.

H reload gives 4 normal shots, plus two special shots. It has two active reload inputs, and each input chooses the type of special bullet that's loaded. It's slower than M reload, missing an active reload makes it even slower, and missing an active reload will give you a random bullet.

Again, not a Dahlia player, so this could be completely not the goal of the character, but to me this feels like it would make the players make more choice about which reload to use based on how much time they can find for it in either neutral or mid combo.

 

[hamie96]

I think most people will summarize how I feel about Beowulf or Eliza changes better than I ever could, but I do just want to say:

- I think trying to buff throne is a trap. I think the move fundamentally is not worth using nor would ever be worth using unless you overcompensate and other moves in her arsenal (Sewer Grab for example) accomplish it's role and would benefit far more from small tweaks.
- Sekh bite is fine as is especially when used on dead characters as you're essentially trading resources (meter for health). The health gain isn't substantial and it's very situational already.

Also, if Fortune gets nerfed she should receive a Garfield skin as compensation.

 

[Taterade]

- I think trying to buff throne is a trap. I think the move fundamentally is not worth using nor would ever be worth using unless you overcompensate and other moves in her arsenal (Sewer Grab for example) accomplish it's role and would benefit far more from small tweaks.

Sewer grab and throne both already have different purposes and the only things holding throne back is it blue bouncing because reasons, and being tracked the same as Horus dive. No other properties have to change on it so I don't know how much smaller of a tweak we could ask for. Sewer grab doesn't travel across the screen and hit their beam assist.

 

[Izzmo]

MAX UNDIZZY LOOPS + DAMAGE

We've seen changes to max Undizzy start sequences in the past and I think we'll be seeing changes to them again. If you're starting a combo on a character that is at max Undizzy, our leaning is to crank up the punishment for doing so even more. Few things could be done here:

Keep in mind, the following changes would occur when starting a combo while the Undizzy bar is full, but not when starting a combo below max Undizzy, then maxing it out later in the combo.

• Applying even harsher combo scaling. It's 50% right now, it could be as low as 20%! Even lower scaling also means more meter for the defender due to inverse meter scaling.
• Immediately starting combo stages at stage 3. Pretty bold, but it would certainly move the needle and force people to back off.
• Giving players access to super gold bursts (the fully invuln one, that keeps all of your Undizzy) to escape air throw burst bait loops when some conditions are met.
• Potentially having said super gold burst (the one that keeps Undizzy... this needs a name... "Super Gold Burst" perhaps?) put the victim into a sliding knockdown so that you can dash over and be plus as they wake up. Guessing correctly on these max Undizzy loops only to knock a zoner away and have them immediately set up projectiles is pretty rough, this would flip the advantage and deter these high Undizzy loops as intended by the mechanic originally.

I love all of this.

TWO TOUCHES

I'd love to get a read of the room on how we're all feeling about two touch teams from round start. Specifically dash up cLK or overhead, then one mix up into death from round start conditions and spacing, but also for the next character arriving on incoming when teams have ~1.5 bars and can build another one easily for the DHC unscale in the corner.

Currently, we lean towards making changes that push things towards three touches from these conditions. This could manifest in a couple different ways:
• Small health increase, to keep combo damage consistent with past data.
• Reducing the DHC unscale value from 70% to something smaller. DHC unscale adjustments would perhaps require specific override rules for some supers to keep some supers viable, but we'd cross that bridge when we come to it.
• Other damage adjustments where needed.

Note that slippery zoners may need a bit of extra attention here to make sure that needing to touch Peacock or Robo-Fortune one more time to kill them isn't a huge buff. Other changes might be needed after this too! A simple goal, but the changes can be tricky to get right depending on how it shakes out.

So that's how we're feeling at least, how about others? Some people preferred TODs from vanilla more and didn't like the addition of Undizzy, so I expect that will extend again to anything that makes the game require more touches to kill. We've seen health increases and more mechanics added in the past to keep things going back and forth and generally "two player", so this feels like a recurring theme on brand for patches.

I love the sentiment. Going away from two touches is smth I'd be extremely happy about. The ideas presented seem great, but I don't like the DHC solution. DHC combos are one of the coolest things about team games so I'd prefer if they were the optimal meter-dump. I'd like it if the game actually went a bit more meter-centric: less damage when not spending meter, more damage when spending meter. But that'd entail a whole slew of changes, like giving everybody a super to use mid combo or combo after dhc, which goes beyond what this is supposed to be about.
One thing I'd like to advocate though is lowering undizzy. I'm sure it has been discussed to death where I haven't paid attention but I think the game is just way more fun when both sides are doing the fast resets back to back, which that'd encourage.

VALENTINE

• Will be looking at legitimate QOL concerns, things like cMK[2] vacuuming a bit mentioned earlier makes sense, cHP not sliding under opponents and whiffing if they are slightly airborne, etc. Would like to focus on these things first, let's bang out as many of them as we can.
• If there is an up to date collection of these kinds of issues in one neat and tidy place that someone can share with me as well, that would be helpful!
• The long awaited "Bypass Fix" (always creates a hitbox for at least one frame) is not just a QOL bug fix IMO, it's a straight up buff. I think it's going to allow for new combos that were otherwise impossible before, and may boost her corner damage significantly which could need more changes depending on how extreme it is. I'm alright with trying this for the move to be consistent, but I think it's a large change.
• With all of the above in mind, I'd like to experiment with some nerfs to Orange Vial to "compensate".

Pls fix bypass and adjust after. She's been blind long enough.

 

[PME]

TWO TOUCHES

Currently, we lean towards making changes that push things towards three touches from these conditions. This could manifest in a couple different ways:
• Small health increase, to keep combo damage consistent with past data.
• Reducing the DHC unscale value from 70% to something smaller. DHC unscale adjustments would perhaps require specific override rules for some supers to keep some supers viable, but we'd cross that bridge when we come to it.
• Other damage adjustments where needed.

I personally want to try a 3-touch meta, rather than a 2-touch one, so I would definitely like to test the above during the beta period and see how it fares.

MAX UNDIZZY LOOPS + DAMAGE

• Applying even harsher combo scaling. It's 50% right now, it could be as low as 20%! Even lower scaling also means more meter for the defender due to inverse meter scaling.
• Giving players access to super gold bursts (the fully invuln one, that keeps all of your Undizzy) to escape air throw burst bait loops when some conditions are met.

Harsher scaling and a new burst seem like the best way to go about this, specifically the scaling. I'm not keen on the idea of max undizzy routes starting at stage 3, as at the very least, would require a way (probably through a new addition in the Tutorial) to let new players know about this exception to combo stages.

ASSIST CHANGES

Assist lockout cooldown (when an assist is actually hit) could be increased as an experiment, but I'd want to distinguish between projectile hits and physical hits so that zoners aren't locking your assist out even longer when you're getting walled out.

I agree with punishing brazen assist calling. But would it be possible that lights wouldn't be able to trigger the increased lockout? If so, increasing the lockout to maybe 2-3 seconds is right. Maybe a more severe lockout to snapping an assist outside of happy birthdays? It doesn't get used for that purpose at all I feel, and it's probably due to a number of factors depending on the player:
-Not worth the bar vs how long they're locked out for
-Still risky to go for a snap during neutral when the opposing point character could punish you for it

I think we will experiment with assists always scaling to 66%, CH or not

Yes, let's try it
I'll be honest? I didn't even know assists on counterhit scaled it to 90%, I thought it was universally 66% from the start! That explains so much with DP assists...

SQUIGLY
Could experiment with giving her access to uncharged versions of specials (while charged) if she performs QCB instead of QCF.

Sounds fun! Let's try it

BIG BAND
I'm not opposed to making [Timpany] easier to punish for the slower characters

Yea, as it stands, some characters have a lot of trouble with punishing it on block. Especially with the Band player "shimmying" the super to catch you for trying to follow it and get in good punishing-the-super range. Let's reduce the blockstun (and maybe the pushback too?)

ELIZA
Sekhmet backflip likely won't be allowed if the point blocks it even if it hits an assist, just like how Upperkhat and Fiber work, for consistency.
Crimson Scourge shouldn't work on dead characters.
Maybe Throne can try red bounce instead of blue bounce.
Crimson Scourge as an Eliza super (not a Sekhmet super) after Eliza taunts as suggested elsewhere could be a fun experiment. It would let her DHC into it after taunting, but not from round start if she's on second.

Let's try these, especially Throne changes. New throne would be a good anti-zoning option to help her get in vs Peacock and Robo, maybe even let her get conversions from far with sHP(1) > H Khat! And after the Sekhmet changes + taunt changes, I've never seen a single Eliza use the new taunt now, so experimenting with the suggested changes to it seem worthwhile during beta.

MS. FORTUNE
cLK head loops will be removed.

Sure! The wording worries me though, as long as you can't do them with cLP either (you can use cLP on certain characters). So, I am down with "removing head loops" in general.

jLK will see tweaks.

As long as the hitstun remains unchanged so that IAD jLK > jHP fastfall > cLK still links, then I'm down for tweaks

Reduced confirm time from Nom seems reasonable.
Worth trying changes to hit the head more reliably for all characters when it gets stuck behind them, in addition to perhaps locking it out for longer.

Yes, absolutely to letting characters hit the head easier. Some characters have a really hard time hitting the head there, so maybe increasing the head's hurtbox to accommodate? Increasing the lockout would also help giving a more definitive way to lock Fortune out of options on her own incoming. At the moment if the head's near the corner and Fortune is coming in, there's literally zero reason to not tell the head to Sneeze and then delay teching throw attempts to cover almost all options. More lockout on the head not only means it would easier to play neutral against headless, but also cut her off from this very encompassing OS.

Making her supers easier to punish when they end near the head is a good suggestion.

Yup! Less blockstun and blockstop for them would be a good idea.

Making [Fiber] more unsafe on block so the slower characters can get into position to punish it as suggested seems reasonable too

Yes, make Fiber have less blockstun. I can't tell you how many times my opponent has missed a punish on blocked Fibers.

• On the often mentioned topic of "just make the head not mess up my combos please"...
Style 3: Little Eddie, Zappa's dog, Dizzy's fish, lol.
Spot fixing issues like Beowulf cMK not working correctly when the head nearby however is doable, so I can look at those!

I don't know much about GG, so apologies there on how those function. But I think spot-fixing scenarios is probably the best way to go about it. But I will suggest that players route combos that take advantage of hitting both Fortune and her head to really take advantage of the extra damage she takes (some characters can even solo TOD her for minimal bars spent)

PEACOCK
Look at SoiD losing its hitbox and / or having a delay on dropping post flash as mentioned.

Can lv2 SoiD on hit turn into a knockdown rather than dragging down? Still seems a little silly the zoner gets (arguably) the safest 50/50 in the whole game and also have it convert into a stage 2 starter, even with the scaling on it. Rather her at least lose OTG from it in some scenarios

"Lenny needs nerfs and/or should be 2 bars"
Peacock builds zero meter while it's out
Lenny has a hit when placed, and this hit can be blocked making M Bang x Lenny unsafe
The hit from Lenny could also be implemented to remove the happy birthday L Bang x Lenny into teleport 50/50, completely safe, guess-for-your-assist-character's-life mix up

It doesn't need to be 2 bars, but if it stays as a 1 bar super, I think these 2 changes to it are plenty. It doesn't need damage nerfs, but for a 1 bar super? It's doing quite a lot in many situations. I don't think it needs to have that much versality, while also doing that much damage, especially for 1 bar.

"Bombs should go away when Peacock is hit"
Bombs go away on hit, but only after a delay
Bombs have atrocious damage scaling applied if they hit the opponent after Peacock goes into hitstun

I prefer option 1. Having George interrupt you after you punish a full screen H Teleport, only for the Peacock player to twiddle their thumbs waiting for George to come and turn it into their combo starter instead is the worst feeling.

PAINWHEEL
I think the "Nail Storage" idea sounds really fun actually!
Some amount of "QOL" (buffs) to hitboxes and frame data here and there as often brought up can be looked at for her.

Nail storage sounds super fun!
Stuff like making cLK > cMK > sHP > L Buer always connect, and cMP and jHK to drag down on hit would go a long way for her consistency issues.

HATRED GUARD DISCUSSION
something like "aftering armoring some number of hit(s), her next Buer is the boosted installed version" could be pretty fun and gives her a reason to fish for armor more often, and dissuades opponents from feeding her easy to armor assist calls for a bit of counter play.

To be honest? It would be interesting to try, but I think the above 2 Painwheel changes are mostly what she needs in my opinion.

CEREBELLA
jHP should hit overhead when not used as an instant overhead at the very least as suggested, so we'll look at that.

They can have it, but only while descending as stated. Definitely never as an IOH ever again.

FUKUA
To start, we'll probably try removing her life drain on shadows so that she's not hurting herself when executing her game plan, even just for resets. I don't think holding shadows in neutral without life drain is very powerful compared to every other zoning tool we have going on right now.

On the train of "Drain during resets, and not during neutral" for me. Having a safe-from-reversals 50/50 option is still an extremely powerful tool (looks at Peacock)

ROBO-FORTUNE
We'll continue the H Beam nerf experiments where we left off last time, something about that move will be toned down I expect.

Yup, let's try the H Beam assist nerfs again. Can Band assists have a similar treatment? Don't know how I feel about Annie DP and Robo H Beam assists being touched, but Band's are left alone(?)

Magnet doesn't need to be rising unblockable on DHC when someone tries to bait your super with a jump.

I 100% agree with this. However, can Magnet have a lower hitbox? Reading a jump with point Robo and using Magnet feels reeeeaaaally bad when the jumping character can still air super post-flash because they weren't high enough for Magnet's hitbox (I've been H Airballed by Filia once even!)

We'll try bringing the minimum crouching height down to Dahlia's current crouching height. This means all characters can duck under H Beam.

Currently, it feels really strong vs Eliza and Band, so I agree.

ANNIE
Star Power (Install) is expected to see a full rework, with higher meter cost up front to activate it like a normal super. The goal will be to make the state more fun to be in, more fun to fight against, with a much shorter duration. She could end up strictly more powerful than before while in install, but with it costing more meter and lasting for a shorter amount of time I think it should be alright, and anything is more fun to fight against than stars are currently!
→ Stars will likely be retired on many normals and must be summoned explicitly on select attacks in a different ways.
→ We'll experiment with powered up special moves much like you see in Skullgirls Mobile during her install.
→ I'd like to try giving her a RC that drains a lot of her remaining power.
→ Some attacks may get cooler properties.
→ Think Dragon Install / HoS instead of Dark Phoenix.

These sound very dangerous, especially the RC addition, but we can try it and see how it goes!

We'll try having Crescent Cut be less effective when thrown out carelessly up close

Yea, it feels a little too... "defaulty", for lack of a better term.

Destruction Pillar assist will likely see increased landing recovery, and have Annie land in front of the character who blocked her more often instead of landing safely behind them

I've never really had an issue about where she lands personally. I more have qualms about the insane corner carry on it if anything. But we can try placing her a little forward to see how it goes. But hopefully not too much, as I hope she doesn't become a "meat shield" like Band is after calling him.

MISC
[Quick Match Timer]
I'd rather implement a "hold to exit" button or similar if the opponent is stalling, and consider bumping the timers back up honestly. ;_;

Yes, I'd rather this as well

You will also not be able to match with opponents you have recently played, or recently declined. So if you don't want to keep matching up against someone with poor ping or poor sportsmanship, you should be in the clear for a few minutes while they match with someone else.

Would bring down the rampant cases of SSJ > Alt+F4 "punishing" by a lot, so this is a great change.

 

[Stuff]

JUST BUFF EVERYONE

This is a discussion had many pages back, but on the subject of fighting fire with fire, powerful options with powerful options, etc... I disagree with the sentiment that removing options or powerful things a character does is the wrong call. We have seen characters lose powerful tools time and time again with just about every balance patch in Skullgirls. I can think of a major thing a character lost at some point because it was deemed to powerful at some random given moment in the meta, and reflecting on those things in hindsight makes those decisions seem questionable - "did this character really need to lose this...?" is something we've been saying for 11 years now, haha. Often times even mid tier characters would have to receive some sort of nerf to trade for any buff to try and keep the scales balanced. You can argue that every powerful thing that is removed makes it harder to have a powerful answer to another powerful problem down the road, but in the past, removing some options that are considered too strong helped reduce the gap between power tiers more effectively (and in a more controlled way with predictable results) compared to say, giving everyone an option that is just as broken.

Some powerful tools or things that immediately come to mind that were nerfed in the past off the top of my head:
• Fukua old M Shadow
• Peacock's old Teleport + Assist (any assist, from anywhere)
• Fast Parasoul TK Tears with JLP
• Double's L Bomber > Puddle being safe on block
• Eliza's Horus trade / protection (bird insurance! remember that?)
• Fukua's H Drill > BFF combo, H Drill > Fireball Super safeness... too many Fukua things to list honestly!
• Filia jHK being overhead
• Cerebella's strike invuln Diamond Drop I think a lot of these things could return all at the same time, and for the characters that aren't top 3 it would probably be "fine", but I don't think that's realistically happening. I can see a reality where characters are never nerfed and we're constantly making old characters character more and more broken, but in my opinion, that has never been the Skullgirls way so it's not how we plan to do things this go around - just getting that out of the way up front to set expectations.

:)

TEAM BUILDING, CHARACTER CHOICE, AND GLUE CHARACTERS

I think it's good for characters to not be able to check every box that you'd want them to, it incentivizes you to come up with a team and a strategy to accomplish the things you set out to do. I like to think of it like distributing stats in an RPG, you can put 20 in strength but perhaps you can't cast spells as a result. Maybe you have a strong DHC damage and kill potential from round start, but poor safe DHCs and one of your assist slots is just being used for damage... that kind of thing. Skullgirls' characters generally have every tool you could want for just about everything, and they have solutions to most problems (that's good!), so it's not as pronounced as this of course.

Going back to the drawing board at team select to try new things is an important part of the team game loop, if it feels solved because you have team(s) that do everything, that's not very fun IMO. If you have a character with great assists, good DHCs, high damage, good vortex, great meter dump, comeback supers, good point neutral... perhaps some of that should be toned down. Double was/is in that situation for a decade and was constantly receiving blows to egregious parts of her kit because of it.

If a character has so many things going for them that when you're looking at team select you're doing yourself a disservice by not considering picking them first, that starts to encroach on team building diversity, and that's when I (personally) think changes are worth considering. This is a team game, so characters with good assists and DHCs that are easy to slot into a team will see a ton of use, and that's to be expected and fine, but there should be incentives for variety within those roles. Going back to the first section - yes you could just buff everyone to also be as powerful as whatever the most powerful "must pick" character is for team building at the moment, but that's unlikely to be the approach we take here.

:)

TWO TOUCHES

I'd love to get a read of the room on how we're all feeling about two touch teams from round start. Specifically dash up cLK or overhead, then one mix up into death from round start conditions and spacing, but also for the next character arriving on incoming when teams have ~1.5 bars and can build another one easily for the DHC unscale in the corner.

Currently, we lean towards making changes that push things towards three touches from these conditions. This could manifest in a couple different ways:
• Small health increase, to keep combo damage consistent with past data.
• Reducing the DHC unscale value from 70% to something smaller. DHC unscale adjustments would perhaps require specific override rules for some supers to keep some supers viable, but we'd cross that bridge when we come to it.
• Other damage adjustments where needed.

Note that slippery zoners may need a bit of extra attention here to make sure that needing to touch Peacock or Robo-Fortune one more time to kill them isn't a huge buff. Other changes might be needed after this too! A simple goal, but the changes can be tricky to get right depending on how it shakes out.

So that's how we're feeling at least, how about others? Some people preferred TODs from vanilla more and didn't like the addition of Undizzy, so I expect that will extend again to anything that makes the game require more touches to kill. We've seen health increases and more mechanics added in the past to keep things going back and forth and generally "two player", so this feels like a recurring theme on brand for patches.

:) Not sure how to feel about universal change to DHC unscaling since I think just a few supers scale extremely better than others. Also would suck to see robo DHC's not being as good. But idk I'd have to see it first, I think.

MAX UNDIZZY LOOPS + DAMAGE

We've seen changes to max Undizzy start sequences in the past and I think we'll be seeing changes to them again. If you're starting a combo on a character that is at max Undizzy, our leaning is to crank up the punishment for doing so even more. Few things could be done here:

Keep in mind, the following changes would occur when starting a combo while the Undizzy bar is full, but not when starting a combo below max Undizzy, then maxing it out later in the combo.

• Applying even harsher combo scaling. It's 50% right now, it could be as low as 20%! Even lower scaling also means more meter for the defender due to inverse meter scaling.
• Immediately starting combo stages at stage 3. Pretty bold, but it would certainly move the needle and force people to back off.
• Giving players access to super gold bursts (the fully invuln one, that keeps all of your Undizzy) to escape air throw burst bait loops when some conditions are met.
• Potentially having said super gold burst (the one that keeps Undizzy... this needs a name... "Super Gold Burst" perhaps?) put the victim into a sliding knockdown so that you can dash over and be plus as they wake up. Guessing correctly on these max Undizzy loops only to knock a zoner away and have them immediately set up projectiles is pretty rough, this would flip the advantage and deter these high Undizzy loops as intended by the mechanic originally.

I think starting at stage 3 makes it more universal to every character whereas just additional scaling, some characters can still game the system better than others but am curious enough to see how it works.
Overall: :)

ASSIST CHANGES

There's been some discussion about increasing the assist cooldown when your assist leaves, but I think the fast speed of assist calls is pretty integral to the feeling of Skullgirls. Assist lockout cooldown (when an assist is actually hit) could be increased as an experiment, but I'd want to distinguish between projectile hits and physical hits so that zoners aren't locking your assist out even longer when you're getting walled out.

Different topic: Assist hits that start a combo set damage scaling at 66% for reduced reward, but counter hit assist hits start at 90% on top of the bonus CH damage from the hit itself. I think DP assists are ignoring the forced scaling and proration, since they are almost always hitting for bonus CH damage and setting scaling at 90%. Given how strong these kind of assists are, I think we will experiment with assists always scaling to 66%, CH or not. Assists themselves getting counter called and counter hit should probably still scale to 90% instead of 50%. Since damage scaling is set per victim this hopefully shouldn't be too tricky to take into account.

:)

SQUIGLY

:)

BIG BAND

:) would love to see slower characters at least be able to Light punish more easily.

ELIZA

:)

MS. FORTUNE

Personally, I still don't agree with the throw punish idea because I think it introduces a new RPS and you might end up eating a HCH for trying to throw Fortune, Fiber being more minus is a safer choice imo and you can really make Fortune pay for it this way. I don't really agree with nom changes either but I get why people hate it.

PEACOCK

• Look at SoiD losing its hitbox and / or having a delay on dropping post flash as mentioned.

• Something to give players a bit more time to live and room to try things when dealing with her zoning at fullscreen is worth discussing IMO. I'd like to see players have more time to experiment and use their character specific tools to try and get in on her without taking over 2000 damage every time they bump into a projectile that combos into another one following behind it. This damage adds up fast and makes it feel like you only have a handful of attempts to get in before you lose the character - I don't think that feeling will change drastically, but perhaps it's worth tweaking some things about this. Robo-Fortune lost CH damage bonus damage on Beams for a similar reason many moons ago, and I've been thinking about the same for Peacock. Level 1 item drop on CH (often sneaking above and interrupting something you're trying) hits for a whopping 1275. Extra metergain for the defender and/or damage scaling on projectile starters would give players access to more super options to try and make a play with. I'm mentioning all of this in the spirit of having her fullscreen presence be more two player than it is now, while still keeping the options she has access to more or less the same. Eager to hear other perspectives.

"Bombs should go away when Peacock is hit"

For me, it's not really dealing with her Fullscreen that bothers me, it's just more that when I hit her and she has the combo breaker out I literally can't do anything, I can't even do so much as whiff punish her.
Secondly, I think part of why I find the "bomb defense" is kinda bunk is that the H plane tracks and that's not player involved at all imo. it'd be nice if the tracking were worse outside of combos when you're near her instead of being forced to put yourself at disadvantage just 'cause her zoning is also her upclose defense. I don't really care about M bang Lenny myself, it's usually a non issue for me. But we'll see based on system changes.

Either way though, :)

PAINWHEEL

• If Painwheel is receiving significant buffs to her point game, she will receive nerfs to her strengths as a "play me second for DHC damage" position by reducing Hatred Install damage and such.

I don't like this because it implies Painwheel was good at being a 2nd and imo she's very niche with the limited assist pool and low amounts of general synergy. But I'd be happy to see her as a point character, delete HI for all I care, I don't want it anyway, I think it's super lame. (other than the faster nails, love those guys)

• I think the "Nail Storage" idea (FC from Nails to save the charge percentage for later) sounds really fun actually! However currently each nail adds Undizzy separately, so using this in combos wouldn't be possible without some minor engine changes.

Not sure how to feel about this because on the one hand, it's cool, on the other, I'd really like to see nails just be better period. I probably wouldn't notice it and would appreciate not losing nails on an early FC though!

• Some amount of "QOL" (buffs) to hitboxes and frame data here and there as often brought up can be looked at for her.

:)

• HATRED GUARD DISCUSSION

Personally, I just wish it was good armor to begin with, idc about bonus damage but after reading that last part what if Painwheel added the damage at the end of the super? She could just auto HI grab out of super (Deathcrawl and Thresher) and WHAM hard knockdown after storing a certain amount of damage or something cool like that. Imagine Painwheel thresher's you it ground bounces and she just throws you as a follow up and SLAMS YOU DOWN, really plants you, you're stuck on the floor and Painwheel gets some amount of oki, would be hype, idk how balanced that would be.
I'd still really like to see beta armor return if only just for full charge heavies because Painwheel being uniquely jailable really sucks!

ROBO-FORTUNE

• We'll continue the H Beam nerf experiments where we left off last time, something about that move will be toned down I expect.
• Magnet doesn't need to be rising unblockable on DHC when someone tries to bait your super with a jump.
• Not 100% Robo-Fortune related, but I think we'll try bringing the minimum crouching height down to Dahlia's current crouching height. This means all characters can duck under H Beam.
• There may be some other adjustments that are TBD.

Not sure how to feel about the magnet thing since it's only really safe if you have a good super behind it. Otherwise it's pretty meh outside of the unblockable. Not sure how to feel about beam either but if it's just more crouchable, that's fine, I think. It really just depends if characters that are dogwater without it will be better overall in this iteration or not.

About the other characters- :)

BLACK DAHLIA

• Something(s) will change with Ice Shot, and perhaps a few other things for shots.
• JHK confirms may see a scaling penalty.
• H Reload may see changes, but it may not! At the moment, I'm pretty happy with how H is being used, but I could see us changing around the order of where the bullets are loaded into the chamber such as [3 and 5], or[2 and 5], instead of the current [3 and 6].
• M Reload could be more interesting, so if there's an opportunity for control over your ammo choice, it would live here. I will mention that it's (obviously) very intentional Black Dahlia does not have access to: Reload + Pick shot type, Shoot shot type, Reload + Pick shot type, Shoot shot type...
• Empower shouldn't work on corpses and give you the buff.

I would really like to know why jHK is getting nerfed at all because I'm unsure why it's necessary but still I like most ideas.


Anyway, I'm a big fan of the ideas for system wide changes as I think the two touch meta is super boring and encourages players to do one thing really well and not much else so I'd be happy to see those changes. One thing though is that I'd very much like to see the system changes first before any characters change as just the system changes themselves can do a lot to change the viability of the characters. But maybe include some buffs too, the nerfs I'd like to see implemented later 'cause what if they end up overtuned to the new system? But idk that's going to depend on how others feel about a 3 touch meta instead.

Oh forgot about Annie: idkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk but I hope the DP is def more punishable, I think the angle of DP assist is insane and screws over painwheel entirely but idkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk I just hope she's more balanced this time around.

Seriously though, make point Painwheel, it's about time everyone learned to play her.

 

[Pol]

perhaps ive read too fast & im gonna have to get back to it...it was a lot but overall this feels pretty disappointing. Not the skullgirls way I mean idk. The way things are now anyone could argue either side so I get it, but this game has been so conservative after SG's reinvigoration. It just feels stubborn. it's reasonable saying it might just not be my game anymore while others enjoy it. But that's the thing, I havent heard anyone talking about SG lately. Having been part of things from the start of PC it feels like a whimper ignoring expression & being fixated on *buffs* being bad.

why is it other games bring substantial changes to each character & people continue on having fun? Nothings ever perfect but it's art, not science. I cant pretend to know more than people who work on the game daily but as a player & knowing how it makes me feel vs updates in other games like strive...im not seeing it. Cool seeing Annie's main mechanic go in a direction many thought it would years ago but idk, so many cool additions couldve happened similarly. Painwheel, Eliza (with devoted thread but not mentioned), Fukua, almost each character getting new toys to play with.

With that said I dont wanna come off negatively, it's a miracle this game came back to life in the first place & devs, disagreements or not have done a lot. I simply disagree with how it's been & is being handled along w/most feedback being ignored. Hopefully SG continues to hold whatever audience it has and get more.

It is a tough business to add completely new moves to kits as those would have to be drawn/animated let alone planned and thought out. Strive has the luxury of working with 3d modeling which makes the process much smoother.

These patches tend to be on the more conservative side because the game is in such a playable state. There are a couple of characters that may need a bit of tuning towards certain directions and discussions are being made for character archetypes to be more fully realized. You have mentioned a couple of broad things you would like to see, however, is there anything specific you had in mind about the changes proposed or potentially a new idea not put forward yet? Characters like Beowulf are being addressed to see if they can expand his team-building playstyle and Painwheel is finally being discussed to not just be a dhc install kill bot. The system-wide changes mentioned at the beginning also pose to shake things up harder than I would hope. Looking at it this patch, it is the opposite of conservative.

 

[JuuseBox]

I dont think removing 2 touches is the direction I'd like to see skullgirls go. Obviously there are exceptions for the characters who's damage or meter gain are so far out of the norm that they can kill off a majority of their neutral confirms, but if a character gets a clean touch, converts near optimally and touches you again? You probably deserve to die. Especially so if there are optimal assist calls in the first string (meaning I got a clean hit without using my assist for support) or if traditional 2lk / j.lk starters aren't common starters (think double / pw). Basically I think pushing execution, optimization, and taking consideration of meter gain and undizzy drain should reward you with a 2 touch.

This is just my opinion, but defence in skullgirls, and particularly active defence (pbgc, land canceling, safe dhc mash) is some of the least fun things ive ever experienced in a fighting game, and the less I have to engage with that the better. Especially when undizzy already acts as a forced break to punish aggressive snowballs.

I think the proposed changes to undizzy are terrible. 20% scaling, forcing stage 3 would make having undizzy feel like smash invincibility from the spawn platform. Especially so when the only 2 characters pushing that mechanic are Beo and Fortune. Tbh id love to see max undizzy damage scaling increase to 100% and bursts at max undizzy being the super special bursts by default. Bursting in SG is basically something you never want to do. If you can only burst after being hit it sort of implies that you lost neutral. Your reward for hitting a burst is then.... resetting neutral? Meanwhile you lose the defence of having undizzy on your character and if it whiffs you take a super combo. I think putting a mechanic like this in place to still reward the winning player for winning, but also not just letting zoners or characters more advantaged in neutral just keep pushing damage into a burst state because they dont care about taking the free neutral reset.

If changes to touches to kill are guaranteed, then I would first look at standardizing health and ratio. Right now you get 15.500 health and 1.0 damage in every equal ratio except 3 v 3. Trio versus trio gives 17.825 health and 1.3 damage, and if my napkin math is correct thats about a 15% increase in damage compared to other equivalent ratios. I think standardizing this would not only be a good way to decrease damage across the board while simultaneously stopping the frustration of communicating combo damage to people that play in alternate ratios. You could also experiment with nerfing the scaling of reversals across the board which would create a better back and forth and "increase health" by decreasing damage in certain situations.

I'm not going to dive too deep into character changes because it is very hard to contextualize them in a positive or negative way without first knowing what the goals are with the game / characters. For example, a change I would love to see for double is increased meter gain, lesser recovery on lugers, and the removal of "you cant super anymore" recovery frames on some of her specials. The goal being her playing into her niche of not having pre hit mix by doubling down on her neutral and forcing the opponent to keep engaging with her. Increased meter gain would lead to constant passivity being punished by catheads. Removal of unsuperable frames adds safety and decreases commitment for participating in neutral. However, if the goal of the patch is to increase commitment and lower reward, then these wouldnt make sense. I would like to hear what the vision the team wants or chooses going forward before I offer anything about speciifc character buffs. I will say I think every character deserves at least one interesting change. This way even if your character gets nerfed or buff you can still having something to look forward to in the patch. It would feel incredibly shitty to see most characters get changes, and your favorite character remains the same as since 2001.

Gonna just edit this real quick cause I think this squigly change is terrible. This change makes it so you never lose kick charge ever and I think thats incredibly strong. If it goes through, squigly can have K charge and then never lose seria cancels for the rest of the game. You would just default to using the uncharged version of silver chord after getting your first K charge. You then save the K charge for either a hkd or more damage at the end of the route, and until then you keep the benefit of seria cancels after one interaction. Imo its just a really strong buff to permanently have K charge for a damage / pressure boost (via always having seria stocked) and goes against her design of being a resource character. Like its not a buff that will escalate her to clear top one, but I think its one that infringes on her character mechanic while also being a straight buff while other characters get nothing? I'd rather see double, filia, bella, pw get things that are cool, interesting, and bring people back to at least giving the character try than just a random buff on an already well defined character.

 

[JuuseBox]

Gonna double post after rereading instead of editing my post.

I didnt want to post my character patch thoughts because the game around the characters would be changing alot with undizzy and health changes, so I wanted to see how it would play out first before I give opinions, but:

Squigly:

I mentioned above but being able to hold charge permanently for the benefits of seria cancels and sing etc. Is a massive buff.

Band:

this character needs to be shot. Reeling in parry is one suggestion. I definitely would like to see him not have 13 frames of an active parry window, but his damage is also way out of line. Especially when squigly, robo, pea, dahlia, and so on, are leveraging their neutral, tagging him in, and getting access to his damage for no cost. The cons of him being a big boy are not so pronounced that he needs all that he has. We could also talk about him having 2 of the best assists in the game, and his level 3 damage on dhc as well.

Eliza:

the changes are fine i guess. Eliza is really good and doesnt need buffs at all imo. But i think having moves work is very important and throne being blue bounce for as long as it has been is kinda insane. I dont think losing bite on dead body is correct cause its spending a resource (meter) for often an irrelevant amount of health. Bite dhc is boring as hell. Having someone do a hop skip and a jump for another combo dhc just feels like circling around the problem. Id say arguably her dhc situation is a non issue since she easily raw tags in, and can combo into nekbet breaker for dhcs. If its really a problem just increase the window for LOS dhc or add a grounded version of Nekbet Breaker so she can at least dhc through her team.

Fortune:

For starters I think this character should lose some of her consistency. One example of that is 2lk 5hp. It works at max range, becomes safe on block, can even be a mix up with fiber + assist, converts into a near corner to corner combo. I think the changes posted are great, but at a baseline I think she does things better than other characters. Her jab is still bonkers, no mention on gato evaporating her hurt box, her dp is still an amazing movement tool and I dont even think making it strike invulnerable is a good suggestion. Its tough, I dont envy having to be the ones to balance this character.

Peacock:

Yea nah, I dont understand why the character with amazing backwards movement, a great suite of zoning buttons, as well as a great suite of defensive buttons (j.lp, j.hp, j.mk, j.mp, 2lk all come to mind here) suddenly has a valuable skill in trading with georges? Im not trying to be mean but that just needs to go. Also no mention on item drop going away on hit, or george being -2 on block with a silly game of rps on block after sweep rubs me wrong.

Painwheel:

Ill be honest I didnt read this. I dont play painwheel. I want to play painwheel. But her assists will always hold her back. I think giving her something fun and unique to play around with goes a long way to interest people to actually put her on their team. The way I see it im sacrificing a team slot for Bardock A assist which is the most boring thing ive ever heard. There are characters that provide damage dhcs, safe dhcs, or both while also being more exciting and interesting as assists as well. I dont play skullgirls to run Painwheel c.mp assist.

Filia, Bella, Double:

Seeing no changes for a character thats been the same since the vhs was relevant feels bad. I understand why, but also understand why seeing a big balance patch, scrolling down to your favorite character and seeing nothing at all can also be a bit depressing.

Valentine / Para:

Yea moves should just work to their intended design. Bypass should get fixed (honestly low key vials should get removed cause their kinda tacked on and nerfing orange just makes her kill faster by going purple) and M egret should actually protect parasoul instead of leaving her head exposed like that one spongebob episode.

Fukua:

I think this shadow health stuff is cap, but if it goes away so that people can actually address the meat and potatoes of this character than thats fine. She cant convert off her dp, she gets nothing off throws without meter, and nothing off air throw even if she has it. Her damage isnt really that low, people just do garbage routes, but her reset damage is abysmal. Shadows not being usable outside of IPS or Undizzy feels incredibly arbitrary, especially in situations where you play M shadow assist and dhc to fukua. Meter gain on fireballs is completely out of whack. She's an ok character imo, but I just dont care about this shadow health thing.

Beo / Umby:

Nothing to say but as is the characters exist in a part of SG that I personally dont enjoy but it is what it is. The cap on beo neutral has to stop though. I wouldnt wish ex blitzer on my worst enemies.

Robo:

Getting off kinda light. No changes to point robo teams is an interesting choice. Especially so if the characters around her become less volatile.

Annie:

Seeing her install get a rework before some other characters get love at all feels absolutely terrible. Especially when there was a cool in / out mechanic of install in beta that got completely changed, and even without is still a character that has been almost mandatory on your team since CEO 2021.

And idk. Todays install is still really good imo. Theres still so much that people dont do.

Dahlia:

I guess? Scaling nerfs really dont mean much in sg because youre still getting hit and getting mixed as a result. Maybe this will force people to actually learn the otg pick up instead of doing the garbage onslaught j.hp confirm but whatever.

I dont have much to say, pending bullet changes asise, i dont think any of these changes really hurt the character where shes strong or help where shes weak. I think trap not going away on hit and adding a lockout for counter + assist would be good, but theres a ton of strong things for dahlia to abuse that people dont do yet so its hard to say what she needs or not.

 

[ampersandrew]

Hey, Liam. Thanks for the preview. My thoughts (I'll keep them brief):

We seem to be on more or less the same page with regards to Peacock, Annie, and Ms. Fortune nerfs. George is a problem, but he's also kind of Peacock's thing, so I'd prefer if maybe he just disappeared once you scrolled him off screen, like a Street Fighter fireball. Lenny for 2 bars makes sense. Annie's DP needs a stern talking to, for sure, especially as an assist. Fortune's jLK is too easy to confirm and headless loops for 0 undizzy were too much.

I like two-touches though. Just make them expensive so you can't do them twice in a row. There are some characters that get to do them too inexpensively (Annie and Fortune) off of basically any light starter, and that's what I'd like to see toned down rather than raising everyone's health. But I don't really want to see this change for Beowulf. Grapplers should be scary. Beowulf gives up a lot in neutral and relies on a resource to get his huge damage, so I feel like he should get two touches for far cheaper; not even necessarily free, unless maybe you can only do it for free when you start the combo with hype rather than building it mid-combo. To break him away from resource-building assists (which the last balance patch did a great job of exxpanding his viable assists), perhaps keep the same routes, but give him more opportunities to build hype mid-combo on lower-damage routes.

As for ice shots, is it a problem for anyone besides Big Band? Is it a feasible solution to, if Big Band parries the first hit of ice, give him a free parry on the second and third hits as well? Because if that's the problem to be solved and the only problem to be solved, I think the rest of Dhalia's shots feel like they each have their niches. Noting that Dhalia will never be able to get exactly the shot she wants for free, I think some experiments to differentiate M and H reload would be great.

H Beam changes don't really seem necessary to me when she's got such a long post-assist taunt to punish her, compared to H Brass filling the same role. If anything about Robo needs changing, I'd imagine it would be missile+assist lockdown loops, but that didn't make your list.

 

[ampersandrew]

This is just my opinion, but defence in skullgirls, and particularly active defence (pbgc, land canceling, safe dhc mash) is some of the least fun things ive ever experienced in a fighting game

Man, PBGC might be the #1 reason I like SG so much, lol. I can't imagine how you could even answer a lot of the creative offensive options in this game without it.

 

[JuuseBox]

Man, PBGC might be the #1 reason I like SG so much, lol. I can't imagine how you could even answer a lot of the creative offensive options in this game without it.

It’s a bit off topic, but I don’t like how intertwined the concept of mashing is with SG. It’s a personal gripe rather than something I wish or expect to change. And to be fair I think like a lot of the true dirt in the game happens post hit anyway. A lot of pre hit mix feels otherwise tame, most openings, with some exceptions ofc. Feel like they hit on the cusp of reasonable reaction.

I probably shouldn’t have inserted that section because I don’t want it to be taken as anywhere near as important of the rest of my feedback. More just an expression of my opinion as opposed to something that needs to be changed or dealt with.

 

[softie]

Fukua:

I think this shadow health stuff is cap, but if it goes away so that people can actually address the meat and potatoes of this character than thats fine. She cant convert off her dp, she gets nothing off throws without meter, and nothing off air throw even if she has it. Her damage isnt really that low, people just do garbage routes, but her reset damage is abysmal. Shadows not being usable outside of IPS or Undizzy feels incredibly arbitrary, especially in situations where you play M shadow assist and dhc to fukua. Meter gain on fireballs is completely out of whack. She's an ok character imo, but I just dont care about this shadow health thing

Yeah

I'm not arguing against any fukua buffs this patch cycle but I agree with this

For every one time I lose a game bc I put myself in pixel hp on anchor, there are 15 instances of me losing game bc my air throw is so small, instead of the opponent teching my throw I just get ch eliza air thrown

 

[Rjazz]

Alright, time for me to shout my utterly garbage opinion that no one should value into the void! :D

If I can be real for a sec: I've only recently picked this game back up (the pandemic ruined my internet connection, and shot all my enthusiasm to play online for a few years), and while I wasn't exactly an outstanding player back then I would've considered myself intermediate-level. I don't necessarily strive to be the best, I just really like the game and its community! But that doesn't mean I don't know a thing or two, or have a good feel for the game and where it's at. I want what's best for the game, like everyone else, and I have my own opinions to share on the matter.

JUST BUFF EVERYONE

I absolutely agree w/ what's said here. Bringing everyone to Pea/Annie/Fortune power levels would be a terrible call: it won't make things better, it'll only exacerbate the issues already present. (and maybe even introduce entirely new problems along the way!)

Glue Characters

I'm actually fine with the concept of a "glue character", but I do agree there needs to be trade-offs. The reason Annie is in basically every team is because there's a lack of trade-offs when picking her. You lose nothing and gain so, so, so much when you pick her.

Two-Touches

So, this is interesting. I joined the community basically right as Rabble/Sev made BeoBand explode in popularity, so from that point forward is basically the only version of SG I know. To me, this is quite the huge change from what I'm used to. And y'know what, I'm down to try it!

I do have my reservations about it, though. The post mentions increasing health and increasing DHC scaling, and my big concern is that this could further widen the gap if we're not careful. Characters/teams with lower damage that already struggle to maintain the current damage thresholds will only fall further behind, while characters/teams that already had damage to spare will be affected far less (if at all). I'm sure the team at HVS is aware of this issue and will be careful when choosing and testing their new values, but it's something I wanted to bring up regardless.

I'm also curious about how Undizzy management and optimization will play out with these changes. I won't lie and act like I'm an expert on managing undizzy or anything (I just let other people figure it out, then steal their routes lol), but I anticipate that changing the required damage thresholds will also make people reconsider how they spend their undizzy and what routes they go for. We might see people really pushing for low-undizzy resets, outside of certain matchups or situations; for example, Umbrella's sqrt resets might be relegated to only when she's last on a team or played solo as opposed to the GAS setups. This is just pure speculation though (and I could be entirely off!), so we'd have to see how this actually plays out first.

TL;DR I think it's interesting and I'm down to try it, but I have reservations about widening the power gap. It might also affect undizzy management!

Speaking of undizzy...

Max Undizzy Loops

I think the ideas here are fine, but again I will reserve judgement until I see it in action. I'm not exactly an expert with this stuff, so I'll leave the discussion of it to those better qualified than I.

Assist Changes

Didn't know CH assists had 90% proration, totally thought it was a uniform 66%. Makes sense why DP assists are so highly sought after currently! Also the lockout change seems like a good experiment to try.

----------
[I'm not an expert with any most characters, so I'll only touch on the ones I have experience with or have something to say.]

Squigly

I was originally okay with the QCB uncharged special suggestion, but after mulling it over I realized it's probably a lot stronger than I initially thought. From what I know, Squigly doesn't need to use her kick charge all that often (or it's used very situationally); since she wouldn't be forced to use it any more, it basically gives her infinite access to her upgraded stance cancels once acquired, no?

I'm not a Squigly player by any means though, so feel free to correct me on this one! This was just something that came to me as I was looking over the notes again.

Ms. Fortune

Good start!

Killing head loops get a big 'ol thumbs up from me. I'll fully admit they were kinda ridiculous, so I'm okay with them being removed. I'm pretty sure on some characters you can do cLP instead of cLK tho, so I hope that the way it's removed also gets rid of that too.

I think nerfing her defensive options is good, but let's not forget that she also has the best jab in the game. Nerfing Fiber and Head Roll is justified, but she will still have really good defensive options overall. And that's not to mention her supposed "frailty" in headless, which 9 times out of 10 is literally the opposite.

Actually, y'know what? Let's talk about that.

I think it's high time we stopped acting like this weakness actually exists. Let's be real: it doesn't, and it pretty much never has as long as I've been playing. So, here's my suggestion:

- Have the head act just like it does currently, until the body is hit.
- When the body is in hitstun, make the head completely intangible. Nothing can hurt it, and it does not interact with anything until the body is out of hitstun. Note that this only applies when the enemy is hitting her, so she can still knock around the head and use it in combos perfectly fine.
- Make the body take more damage from all sources, rather than needing to hit the head as well. It does not need to be the full 1.5x damage that hitting the body and head together currently does, but I want it to be enough that she really feels it, maybe even going from an average three-touch kill (with the new changes) back to a two-touch while headless.

I know there's probably holes in this implementation that I haven't thought of, but this is what I personally would do to fix the issues of both her head messing up combos and her supposed frailty being a complete lie.

TL;DR Good start, glad head loops are gone, she's still incredibly strong defensively even if her DPs are nerfed, and I proposed a way to make headless not ruin combos while also fixing the fact that she is, in fact, not "frail" in headless like she should be.

Peacock

I like the sound of the changes overall! As someone that completely despises fighting that character with every fiber of my being, I am totally open to the idea of her zoning being just the smallest bit more manageable and interactive than it is now.

I know all the Peacock players are saying not to make Lenny a lvl 2, and while on principle I am inclined to argue with them, I think the proposed changes that keep it a lvl 1 would probably be better overall. As a lvl 1, currently, Lenny is arguably the best super for its price! Toning it down like that would bring it much more in line with the other lvl 1s in the game. Not sure how adding the hit to it would pan out long-term (my immediate thought is that L Bang stagger > Lenny wouldn't lead to a full combo or mix-up anymore, which is actually a MONUMENTAL nerf), but we'll see if that gets implemented or not.

Also, bombs expiring after a certain timer when Pea is hit is... acceptable. It'll make trades harder to pull off, but not outright remove them. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna grumble and whine about it still being a thing.

Painwheel

It's finally happening, Liam's gonna increase L Buer's hitbox by a single pixel! :D

I like the sound of these changes! Nail storage sounds cool, and so do the changes to HI!

Valentine

New bypass looks cool! I'm happy for all the Val players!

Why nerf orange vial though? I thought purple and green were, like, definitively better than orange in most scenarios? Idk, I don't play Val so it really only benefits me, but just seems weird from my perspective.

Parasoul

Okay I know making sLP better was kind of a joke at first, but would increasing the hitstun really make her that much better? If it was increased to 18f, you'd have a smidge more wiggle room for confirms, but still wouldn't be able to link sHP after (assuming my mental math is right). If she could combo sLP into sHP that'd maybe be a different story, but assuming it doesn't go that far it's... whatever?

M and H Egret though, absolutely I'd love to see some changes! Maybe it's just a skill issue, but I really have a hard time finding uses for them in certain match-ups, like against Peacock. The fact she's stuck in place for the better part of a second, projectiles like SoID can basically bypass M Egret, and H Egret requires you to not get hit for half a second means I really struggle to find situations where they can be used effectively. Again, could be skill issue, but that's how I feel.

In all honesty, though, I think Para's in a good place! I really don't think she needs anything major, though small schanges are welcome!

Fukua

Okay I'm just going to be 100% real: get rid of the life drain. We had this whole discussion back in the beta discussion discord channel, and from what I remember the life drain literally means nothing in the end. The numbers don't add up to anything substantial. Removing it would basically do nothing.

Granted, that was a long while ago and I am totally open to being proven wrong about it! If the life drain's actually that substantial, and has been shown to cause a noticeable effect in practice (e.g. if there are lots of tournament matches people can point to where the lost health actually made the difference - or could've if things happened slightly differently - and led to one less touch to kill), then I will fully concede this point! But as of right now, I haven't seen any evidence that points towards the life drain actually being an impactful mechanic.

But regardless of whether that's true or not, Fukua has other much more pressing issues than this. I say we just rip off this band-aid so people stop talking about it, and start looking at the actual problems with the character.

Umbrella

The child has escaped custody for her war crimes, this time...

Which hey I'm not complaining about, I play her lol

Annie

I've said since pretty much day 1 that I would've loved to see some of her SGM mechanics make their way into 2e, and I was really sad they didn't end up doing that. I'm super happy they're returning to the drawing board with this one, and I can't wait to see what's cooked up!

Also, I do hope that the changes are actually enough! They seem good on paper, but we'll see how they actually play out.

----------
And that's pretty much my thoughts on everything!

 

[iDante_SG]

BEOWULF

• Plenty of chatter about Beowulf internally - just to lay it all out on the table transparently, here's where we're at...
• Even with changes to Beowulf in previous patches, he's still at his most powerful when he's building hype using resource building assists such as A-Train, then spending it to two touch off of his oki, or TOD you even if he's saved up enough meter. Attempting to move Beowulf away from this gameplan is met with some amount of friction, as Beowulf A-Train players will be frustrated at having the most effective strategy for the character removed. As a result, it feels very difficult to change anything about him and allow for more viable playstyles, so we're at a bit of a logjam here.
• The way Beowulf fundamentally engages with hype and builds hype would likely have to be reworked to let him be played freely in different positions with flexible team compositions. For some patches closer to his release I'll remind you that Beowulf couldn't build three hype with taunt, and had less ways to dump a ton of hype on EX moves during a combo, since many EX finishers didn't regrab - he may have been worse, but he wasn't shackled to resource assists for doing a ton of damage.
• Summary: For as long as Beowulf remains a character that wants to taunt in the middle of a combo with an assist call (due to how hype building works), he will probably pilot the same as before. I expect him to lose his effective 0 bar two touches (!) in some of the global two touch changes mentioned way above, so this may be our collective best shot to give him different ways to be played. If the Beowulf + A-Train players want him to stay with the same gameplan, with the same assist dependencies, we'll have to figure that out too. Thoughts welcome!

As a solo, I'm not sure how much I can add on to this as this is dedicated to Beo/A-Train specifically, but I personally think this iteration is his best he's ever been solely due to how much he's able to already build hype by himself in a plethora of ways. Like I REALLY think he's super fine as he is currently, that said though I am rather curious as to what, if any, changes will happen to him or how the system changes will impact him.

 

[Gelato]

(edit: I wrote a lot about being worried about three touch but after sitting on it I'm looking forward to giving it a real shot and see what happens. I have a little concern it might make the game feel too slow but I think there's a good chance it might feel good and fix some of the less resource intensive two touch scenarios, too.)

---

I think the way the character balance discussion is starting is perfect.

For Parasoul I'm curious what you mean by making it harder to jump out of her strings.. back roundhouse is already frame trapping from lights unless you mean she should be able to delay it a bit too? It'd be nice if the hit advantage on stand light punch could be helped a little but I still want to be able to frame trap with 5LP > 2HK and I figure you mean you don't want sweep to confirm.. if some frames could be eeked out in her favor without changing that stuff it'd be nice but it's not that consequential I think - it's just awkward that its that kind of poke in a game where theres fast forward moving supers with hitstop but all it means is you just have to be more careful about the range in those matchups so you can confirm. Overall I agree she's in a good spot.

Double catheads confirms from long range being more consistent would be really nice. I never was able to figure out how to make that consistent and it just felt kind of random whether I'd land it or not. Out of all my mains I'd be most interested in looking out for a small buff for her somewhere after seeing how things shake out but overall she's like fine.

Nothing to comment on for Bella. Falling jHP being overhead makes sense.

I agree that Peacocks overwhelming feeling from chip and passive meter gain could be toned down just a little bit but I want the gameplay to stay roughly the same as stated, as that's what she's supposed to do. I think plane > crossup teleport is super corny for how safe it is, so if the timing for bombs going away would make that possible to punish with ground buttons without getting clipped I'd rather have that over the damage scaling.

Maybe I'm alone on this or I just need to learn how to fight her better but I feel like Fukua's air game is really strong and makes her worth picking.

 

[daryo]

Fukua:

I think this shadow health stuff is cap, but if it goes away so that people can actually address the meat and potatoes of this character than thats fine. She cant convert off her dp, she gets nothing off throws without meter, and nothing off air throw even if she has it. Her damage isnt really that low, people just do garbage routes, but her reset damage is abysmal. Shadows not being usable outside of IPS or Undizzy feels incredibly arbitrary, especially in situations where you play M shadow assist and dhc to fukua. Meter gain on fireballs is completely out of whack. She's an ok character imo, but I just dont care about this shadow health thing.

cosigned. One of the main glaring issues that fukua has is her ability to open up the opponent and her reward from her grabs as a low/throw character. Not to completely compare her to other chars but fukua right now doesnt feel consistent to other low/throw chars (annie, double) in a sense that im unable to convert from my regular ground throw without spending meter and that i cant spend meter to convert from air throw at all. On top of having to spend meter to convert from ground throws, her meter build is questionable especially when it comes to how darts work. I'm all down for removing health drain and see how that pans out for her but in totality I would rather see how we can buff fukua into a better low throw char with good rewards from them.

 

[PME]

Maybe I'm alone on this or I just need to learn how to fight her better but I feel like Fukua's air game is really strong and makes her worth picking.

You're not alone on that. Personally, I think when a Fukua player does not want to be caught, they become Val-tier of impossible to tag, creating a risk-reward scenario in Fukua's favor if you try

I like two-touches though. But I don't really want to see this change for Beowulf. Beowulf gives up a lot in neutral and relies on a resource to get his huge damage, so I feel like he should get two touches for far cheaper; not even necessarily free, unless maybe you can only do it for free when you start the combo with hype rather than building it mid-combo.

You want the character that can 2-touch for 0 bar to do it far cheaper? But, again, trying to balance around Beowulf's hype mechanic is a fickle thing

 

[ampersandrew]

You want the character that can 2-touch for 0 bar to do it far cheaper? But, again, trying to balance around Beowulf's hype mechanic is a fickle thing

Cheaper than the rest of the cast, yes; cheaper than free is a tall order and not what I meant. But what I do mean is that if most of the cast can find a round-start two-touch that spends your first meter and the one you built, leaving you with 0, I think it's fair if Beowulf can do that for less than 2 bars with hype, because big damage with hype is his thing.

 

[mpgame99]

I'm a fan of trying out things to make the two-touch meta less powerful. I think the major issue is how many teams get to do it all AND two touch. I personally feel that if you're playing a team that's gonna consistently two-touch, it needs to come at the cost of other things. I think characters like Beo being able to two-touch for free is perfectly fine but getting two-touched from a DP assist against a fortune/annie team just feels a bit much imo. Ultimately what I want more than anything is more diversity for team comps and making easy two touches something you have to pick and choose instead of being a given for most optimzed teams can really help.

 

[Stuff]

(edit: I wrote a lot about being worried about three touch but after sitting on it I'm looking forward to giving it a real shot and see what happens. I have a little concern it might make the game feel too slow but I think there's a good chance it might feel good and fix some of the less resource intensive two touch scenarios, too.)

Oh dang I was hoping I could quote the original because you brought up something I hadn't considered about a 3 touch meta. I have to agree that having to block another extremely hard to block 50/50 wouldn't do much in terms of interactions in SG. I figured a change like 3 touches would add to interaction but I forgot that it just means I get stuck in a vortex I can't really block regardless of skill. I'd like to have more chances to play and I'd also like to see if it gets explored through multiple avenues.

The other thing that concerns me is general meter gain since it scales inversely for the opponent, I don't necessarily want my opponent to build even more than I do in part by safe DHCs being as strong as they are and they're usually on characters without much give and take (imo) and the majority of them make you block a 50/50 for your character rather than resetting to neutral. But I also wasn't concerned at the time since it seemed to me that meter would also be addressed so I wasn't sure whether I should go into detail or not.

I'm still open to the idea but I'd also like to see alternatives where safe DHCs don't get immensely stronger. I think those were valid things (whether I interpreted them correctly or not) to be worrying about and I thought it was nice to see other perspectives for things I hadn't considered, thanks.

For me personally, I just wish SG had more neutral opportunity overall since hitting's greatest rewarded option currently is resetting into death and it's primarily due to meter gain and how most if not all combo enders leading to vortex. So at least for me, I'd like the opportunity to play more but I'm unsure what changes would make that happen.

That said, I'm still in favor changing something to add some level of interactivity or opportunity to be able to do something about SGs incredibly powerful offense but at the same time, I'm not sure if it's a question of interactivity or something else. Since I don't exactly know what the change ideas entail I'm open to them but also want to refrain from saying much until they're implemented but still wanted to express my agreement or concerns.

 

[Ramora and Ramnus]

Hi Liam, and others.

Forgive me for this upcoming emotional response.

• Reduced confirm time from Nom seems reasonable.

I cannot agree with this and I feel very strongly over Nom changes as someone who doesn't treat Headless as only a "corner only mode" character that Head-on rekka reset corner carries into kills, then setups up into Headless. The rest of the suggestions I'm fine with and more than happy to test and try (with a better write up about them coming up soon), however, unless told why Nom is being reduced to confirm off or how the change will be implemented, I cannot let myself sit on my hands in silence.

Nom is a core to midscream Headless play, both routing and setplay, and I've used it for many years before the wiki even had the combos placed on there and players were doing zoom loops and back when people thought Nom scaled the combos too harshly to be good (heh).

If you're suggesting that if Nom was used without being combo'd into traditionally, say 'Zoom into Nom in neutral' then I can understand that, but if it's more like '2LK > 5MP > Headbutt > 5HK > j.214MK > Nom' then I greatly disapprove as the issue I have here is this route and others require Headless to reposition herself to route into her next chains and reducing the time really hurts her ability to do this consistently and will then be even more reason to favour Head-on over Headless anywhere else that isn't the corner. If it's damage you're concerned over then why not make the scaling go from 0.55 to less so subsequent routing damage is brought down?

I'm more of the type to play changes before posting my opinion as I don't like to revel in conjecture so forgive me, but at the same time I feel very strongly about this as I'm an isolated player who feels like their way of approaching the character and how said characters synergies with the rest of my team can be impacted by this and without a descriptive explanation as to how or why.

Many thanks.

 

[Liam]

would making it so all three hits of ice shot land for the freeze to work be viable?

I think with the way that hitboxes work in this game this would be too inconsistent. Character's often have an extended limb hit by a projectile then flinch back into their hitstun animation and retract it.

If you're suggesting that if Nom was used without being combo'd into traditionally, say 'Zoom into Nom in neutral' then I can understand that, but if it's more like '2LK > 5MP > Headbutt > 5HK > j.214MK > Nom' then I greatly disapprove as the issue

It's very much full screen Nom on fullscreen Zoom > Nom that is being targeted here, and still having plenty time to confirm it on reaction into a combo from anywhere. It's not whatever utility the high stun is providing midscreen for her combos and set ups. Both will be kept in mind, and it's totally possible some important set up she uses becomes worse as a result in the crossfire but I'm open to further adjustments if that's the case.

will there be any changes to the Vial symbols? As it stands now, I cannot understand whether my opponent is loading green or orange vial since I'm colourblind.

It's still on our list to look at, but we'll have to see if we have the art budget to dedicate to this for this cycle. I'll make sure it's up for discussion once things get that granular. We've got some designs for it started already looking into new symbols for the different hazard types.

so i dont see a reason to nerf AAs in this game, this is not a specifically thing to Annie tho as i would like to see more strong AA options in the game instead of having the ones that we have nerfed.

AAs are rare and I know some people really want to see more AA options varied across the cast, but I think this one is really in a tier of its own and does not need to be AAing low jabs up close. If it becomes slightly worse at anti airing some other options because of that, that's just how it is.

jHK H Gato for the side-switch. If that is the case, could we bundle it up with Lex's suggestion of standardizing which way the head goes instead of the current p1/p2 side variable?

Oh yes, I had that written down elsewhere but didn't make it into the post. IIRC the desired behaviour was to just always have it fly behind Ms. Fortune, right? If so, I'd just make sure it uses her facing direction to determine where to fly - I don't think that will be hard to set up.

Considering it is a bug [H Bypass not having a hitbox] it should be fixed right away, any balance it affects should be tackled after.

That's the plan. We'll try it out without trying to think too far ahead so we can get data quickly, but Valentine players will be encouraged to report their findings.

Characters like Annie, Umbrella, and Squigly just straight benefit from being small and hard to hit/combo consistently even with the most stable routes.

I've always been on the fence about this. To adjust it would be to really break the "hurtboxes on average line up with the character art" paradigm that Skullgirls has had for so long. Very light adjustments to standing and crouching idles (which populate to crouching and standing hitstuns) are a potential option we could explore, I feel like they'd come with numerous unintended changes though removing tech and character specific set ups that work on these characters. I know Cerebella has a ton of hurtbox issues that are unique to her too, like how far above her point she is when falling from a knockdown state. Eager to hear more input honestly!

Throne being tracked separately from Horus dive and red bouncing will allow it to be used to actually start combos when its used properly against projectile gameplans, as well as not hamstringing Eliza from one of her most used specials in combo.

I'm not sure why this is the case either but on paper this seems like a reasonable thing to look at.

Extra:
I know its being looked at, but friendly reminder that detonating the oil puddless of barrel right before the barrel goes away still drops the opponent as the puddles dissapear mid explosion before getting to the barrel itself.

Written down elsewhere as a bug to be tackled this release already, but totally appreciate the extra reminder for things like this.

Sure! The wording worries me though, as long as you can't do them with cLP either (you can use cLP on certain characters). So, I am down with "removing head loops" in general.

That's good to know. The safest and least destructive way to implement this is making the head react a little differently specifically if it's hit with cLK and other problematic moves rather than change some core logic on it. Everyone just does the cLK version and I'm unsure how well documented other ones are, is cLP the only other reasonable "loop" she can get into? I'm planning on looking at cLP and cLK first.

Can lv2 SoiD on hit turn into a knockdown rather than dragging down?

A nerf I've often mused about given how powerful this move is, but some of the other Peacock nerfs are intentionally left out of discussion right now so we can focus on the biggest topics that came up naturally from the thread for pages and pages. (Bombs + Lenny).

I'd still really like to see beta armor return if only just for full charge heavies because Painwheel being uniquely jailable really sucks!

To clarify, Painwheel already kept numerous armor buffs through the last beta period, such as armor through the first active frame when fully charged and armor covering all active frames on 5MP. If you're talking about four armored active frames on 2[HP] and such though, I don't think that will return.

She's supposed to absorb then counter per the HG archetype IMO, not absorb and counter on the same frame as an AA or something from the 4th active frame of 2HP as it was very briefly for that one beta patch. I don't interpret her armor as accomplishing the same goal as an armored active hitbox running into you like LNL or Battlebutt for example.

---

Also, just to clarify some confusion about Filia's DP vs Annie's DP (the most reasonable two DP assists to compare) and why I listed increased recovery as an option - they appear to recover at the same time in training mode because Annie's assist taunt animation is significantly longer than Filia's. However, what I'm talking about with this is the window to counter call, punish, etc, and actually trigger the bonus CH damage on the assist before the animation ends after she has landed and is grounded.

I could even see moving some of Annie's assist taunt duration into the recovery of H DP instead, if it doesn't make Crescent Cut assist call loops even stronger for zoning. (I believe that since she is only available to call again once Crescent has vanished, it wouldn't be a problem).

---

Also no mention on item drop going away on hit

To clarify: It was the very first thing mentioned for her, but I didn't word it properly. If you lose neutral while holding item drop over their head, you got super outplayed IMO and don't deserve the combo breaker.

I probably shouldn’t have inserted that section because I don’t want it to be taken as anywhere near as important of the rest of my feedback. More just an expression of my opinion as opposed to something that needs to be changed or dealt with.

It's fine to bring up, I totally get it and wrestle with that too, the "I don't like this and I'm going to say it, but it's fine and doesn't need change so whatever" sentiment.

Bit of a tangent here actually: The version of SG that even I would like the most probably has a lot of changes compared to the version we're in front of today, but it's not my game, or any other individual's game, it's the communities collective game. From very early on playing Skullgirls I learned you just have to accept that you'll enjoy 90% of a fighting game and perhaps really disagree with 10% of it. This happens all the time for me, but if you just focus on what you like things end up balancing out, because the things you dislike are often the reason why someone else plays the game at all in the first place! I don't even particularly enjoy reset based gameplay, I find executing the powerful defensive techniques with strict timing under duress that decide if I win or lose a set to be pretty frustrating, I find two touch meta pretty boring, etc, but there's tons of stuff in there I really like, so I don't mind, nor do I think anyone should be pushing too hard to flip it on its head if that's not something the community at large is into. As long as you're not constantly complaining so loudly about things you dislike that you're dissuading potential new players from giving the game a try to figure out what THEY like (or don't like!) about it, it's all fine and part of the process IMO!

For that reason, we'll be trying to focus on slam dunk "EVERYONE (mostly) LIKED THAT" changes first before we dive into adjusting things that are much more likely to be earth shattering and change tons of things at once. I prefer to leave large game feel and pacing things alone, since after all, everyone posting on this forum is here is doing so because for one reason or another they found something they love about the game just the way it is. Of course there's a point where some things are so powerful that they have to be adjusted whether you like it or not, and that's the hardest part of the job for me at least. Not a fan of disappointing anyone, but someone will always disagree with a particular change even if the majority feel it's better for the "health" and overall balance of viable strategies in the game, so onward we go...

I think there are enough reasons to not mess with too many knobs and dials at the same time, and there are a ton of players who really appreciate the pace of 2 touch under the right conditions (TBD). It does feel like the vast majority of players don't think Ms. Fortune should two touch you from basic round start conditions for example, but at the same time I've seen arguments saying that it's fine when other characters and teams do it (not even Beo Band), which still feels very contradictory to me. (At what point does your team having X% better neutral that validate consistent two touches?) I do like the notion of distinguishing between two touching off clean hits such as getting right in their face with your assist off cooldown and landing a high / low, vs two touching off worse starters like an air throw, a down back DP assist call, a stray Luger that leads to a combo, etc. I think starting with more targeted two touch damage nerfs on some of the most problematic examples (in addition to other general balancing for the top tiers, and the "low" tiers) is a good place to start, and we can see how things grow from there.

 

[Cattfish]

Standardizing Nom direction

Oh yes, I had that written down elsewhere but didn't make it into the post. IIRC the desired behaviour was to just always have it fly behind Ms. Fortune, right? If so, I'd just make sure it uses her facing direction to determine where to fly - I don't think that will be hard to set up.

oh god oh god oh god I personally would not prefer this and I understand why people would be more than happy to say no to it. If Fortune players do  not want the sandwich please let me know, other Fortunes. I get you can do CSF 2 bar meter dump and that penpen/others do silly jLP high/low/left/right but Nom -> head going forward stabilizes some cool resets in a tidy way.

 

[Golbat]

Hello,

Really great post discussing the direction you want to try and push the game in. I especially liked the portions such as peacock/painwheel/etc that were specifically looking to make those aspects of the game more interactive. Looking forward to what's coming.

 

[Stuff]

To clarify, Painwheel already kept numerous armor buffs through the last beta period, such as armor through the first active frame when fully charged and armor covering all active frames on 5MP. If you're talking about four armored active frames on 2[HP] and such though, I don't think that will return.

She did and I'm grateful but I also don't think it's at all where it should be as it was a very hasty testing period. 5[MP] only gets that buff under the limitation that I have to hold the button for an extra 12 frames to my 14 frame button totaling to a whopping 26f, any less and I don't get it at all and I don't necessarily think that's really a good buff, it's there and it comes in handy sometimes but I also feel like most characters can avoid that due to how small that button is as well as how slow it would be to give it that effective armor and also a lot of characters don't exactly have a hard time breaking either and Painwheel can't cancel it into anything useful if she needs to cancel her armor to somehow punish a jump in the event armor could break before active frames. You could take away 5[MP] and I probably wouldn't notice because I think 2[MP] is the much better armor button regardless of the state they're in right now.

But overall, I think I'd just be happy with Painwheel not being the only character in the game that has a legitimate problem getting out of certain multi hit normals. I don't mean from knockdown either, she lose to meaties since armor isn't a factor on wakeup. Unless you're in install, anyway.

She's supposed to absorb then counter per the HG archetype IMO, not absorb and counter on the same frame as an AA or something from the 4th active frame of 2HP as it was very briefly for that one beta patch. I don't interpret her armor as accomplishing the same goal as an armored active hitbox running into you like LNL or Battlebutt for example.

My biggest problem with her armor on Heavies is that she most of the time can't use every hit. I'd also argue that Painwheel's armor doesn't function like lnl or Battle butt or any armor really. No other character in the game has to wait for their armor to activate, no other character has to sit there for 40f just to maybe trade if you got the 1 frame active frame armor and it still comes with so many limitations.

Personally I thought this was the natural progression of this character since she already rewarded good decisions under great timing.

All she has is that really good DHC, I figured this would help justify all of her other weaknesses without adding a gimmick or changing the character I think is fun and the mechanic I enjoy a lot. (I really don't even want frame 1 armor, I love the give and take of armor start up, it makes me feel so smart when I'm right and her defense is supposed to be lacking because at least to me, her tools should be strong enough to not be in those positions with her mobility or armor both of which aren't all that strong so currently don't do what I think is their job.)

I like that she's slow, it's so interesting because her special mechanics try to make up for it, I just want those to be better.

 

[Izzmo]

I've always been on the fence about this. To adjust it would be to really break the "hurtboxes on average line up with the character art" paradigm that Skullgirls has had for so long. Very light adjustments to standing and crouching idles (which populate to crouching and standing hitstuns) are a potential option we could explore, I feel like they'd come with numerous unintended changes though removing tech and character specific set ups that work on these characters. I know Cerebella has a ton of hurtbox issues that are unique to her too, like how far above her point she is when falling from a knockdown state. Eager to hear more input honestly!

My opinion on the paradigm of Skullboxes is get rid of them. The amount of jank caused by Skullboxes is imo so much greater than whatever jank they were intended to solve. Characters going from turbo-wide to tiny when blocking lows, strange whiffs because the back is arched just a pico-pixel too much during a KD-frame, hit and hurtboxes slotting into each other like some Terror-Instinct Tetris are just a few examples. They didn't even "fix" attack and character sprites overlapping but not hitting, cause the same rules were never applied to hitboxes.

Getting rid of Skullboxes isn't gonna happen, but imho at least disregard the past practice if it means making the game better.

 

[PME]

is cLP the only other reasonable "loop" she can get into? I'm planning on looking at cLP and cLK first

Yup, should be just those 2. Every other normal is either too slow to use, or not worth going for since their hitboxes are bigger and would hit the opponent anyway.

5[MP] only gets that buff under the limitation that I have to hold the button for an extra 12 frames to my 14 frame button totaling to a whopping 26f, any less and I don't get it at all and I don't necessarily think that's really a good buff, it's there and it comes in handy sometimes but I also feel like most characters can avoid that due to how small that button is as well as how slow it would be to give it that effective armor and also a lot of characters don't exactly have a hard time breaking either and Painwheel can't cancel it into anything useful if she needs to cancel her armor to somehow punish a jump in the event armor could break before active frames. You could take away 5[MP] and I probably wouldn't notice because I think 2[MP] is the much better armor button regardless of the state they're in right now

Yea pretty much this.

Even with the buffs to Painwheel's sMP, I haven't found it to be any more effective at challenging jump-ins than it already could. I'm so used to Painwheel losing versus most jump-in attempts, and she can't really try to challenge with an air-to-air if they're already pressing something, that often times I find myself just holding one of her heavies and just waiting for them to land and then releasing said heavy (multihit aerials still win, Val/Filia jMP just to name a couple).

I also couldn't make the best use of 1 frame armor startup in HI. When I'm in HI, it's either because I'm comboing, or using it in neutral for the nail upgrade when she's anchor to force my way in. On defense, like say when Painwheel is waking up, all the opponent has to do is call assist + neutral jump and come down with a multihit to stuff pretty much anything she wants to do