The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

[Façade]

It's a bit of a stretch on my part, but it makes sense considering where her new move's inspiration comes from.

Do you know what other move had the same inspiration? Egret Call. Does Egret Call require you to press 3 buttons simultaneously? No! No other move in the game requires pressing >2 buttons at once. Why do we need to make an exception now?

Also, you don't have apply all 3 buttons on 1 macro If you don't want to. You can just apply only 2 buttons to it so that you only have to essentially press the assigned macro button and any other button instead of a 3-button macro. Considering macros handle several uses, it shouldn't be hard to just press it along with another button, especially on pad.

It doesn't matter if you can just assign two buttons to a macro instead of three. You are still forcing pad players to use a macro. Button macros should never feel like a requirement to use.

 

[HellCofer180]

Do you know what other move had the same inspiration? Egret Call. Does Egret Call require you to press 3 buttons simultaneously? No! No other move in the game requires pressing >2 buttons at once. Why do we need to make an exception now?


It doesn't matter if you can just assign two buttons to a macro instead of three. You are still forcing pad players to use a macro. Button macros should never feel like a requirement to use.

1) I don't know, you can take that up with the devs, I'm just stating what I've observed. Egret call's a charge input cause parasoul's a charge character. Annie's should have been 2 Kick buttons but devs like to make references down to their functionality. Why do you think Painwheel’s fly special is always qcb+K instead of K+K?

2) what else would you need macro buttons for? They're not filler buttons, they have multiple uses. They're used for throw inputs, super inputs, even tag inputs if need be. I myself a throw macro cause my keyboard suffers from ghosting problems. It's not hard to just press your macro button and another just to do star cancel (you can't even use it more than once in beta, so why is it a big deal?). I tested it myself, it still worked with only a macro and another button. How's it any different from pressing only 2 kick buttons?

 

[Triviality]

Spoiler: Peacock Thoughts

Peacock Adjustments

I'll just get this out of the way. Lenny nerfs need to be directly targeted at happy birthday kill combos, and oppressive neutral potential. Playing it safe by just making peacock not able to gain meter when Lenny is out seems fair, removing CH damage or just honestly not letting it hit an assist when the point character is not in HitStun also just seems like a big change to just get that nonsense out of there. Start small please, Annie nerfs feel like a good bar for what bringing down top tiers should be.

Item drop going away when you hit her is super fair, this would encourage more people to swing at her, and I think encouraging counter play is the way to go for most of my balance perspective/philosophy, please do that if nothing else (there will probably be lots else)

Dont let bombs go away on hit, Good players seperate themselves from bad players in bracket when they know how to make the most or work around an active george. Definetely tone down the reward a peacock player gets by forcing an interactive decision (Space or reset) scale the combo to 10%

Spoiler: Two Touch Thoughts

The Two Touch Meta and whatever

Two touch meta is more than fine in my book. Its the way the competetive meta mostly grew up with 2016 post onwards? I think we just hit a huge pool of knowledge and information-era esque fervor, to the point that every team needs an optimal flowcharted two touch off of stray jabs? Which is kinda crazy in retrospect?

I think earned two touches off of like heavies and clear routing for it or specialized damage characters like Big Band should rock? But I think the clumsiest multi jab starting chain into generic mixup from like annie or fortune into like overkill damage for 1 bar is I guess not great. But like in bracket that isnt something thats ever like I felt held me back? I have no opinions on it, if Annie's damage nerfs are anything to go off currently, I think thats a fine way to go about it. Im sure in a week people will find new two touch routes with teams built for it.

Spoiler: Eliza

Eliza

Players are starting to figure her out, Skeleton is in a good spot right now, I didnt have an opinion on resources like Bite off of dead bodies until I read the posts on this thread, and honestly im kind of in favor of it. I think players who wanna make that decision to spend meter for health is no different than juggling a body for the corner, or squigly kicking one up like a hackey sack to buy more time for her resources. I think its a positive precedent that will not break the game, if you allow eliza among other characters to do that

More for eliza, just please fix her horrendous hitbox data on normals like j.hp and just make some of her specials actually feel intuitive or like they have meaning? Yeah honestly small stuff like making throne properly bounce with OTG pickup sounds like a good start, she really doesnt need much to be brought up to average with the rest of the cast. Really listen to the eliza community, they are astonishingly intelligent in their understanding of that character and how to pilot her and what makes her work and what would probably be good for her.


I kind of liked the idea of her crouching heavy kick, spawning blood for her to pick up as she tanks projectiles, considering that move isn't really designed to reflect that damage anyway being her main approach against zoning.

Nekhbet Breaker should bounce the target similar to Det Mode Robo Magnet, or just be given better advantage state.

And please just make her crouching size smaller so she can duck robo beams and thats like it

Spoiler: Squigly

Squigly

She's fine don't touch her

Spoiler: Beowulf

Beowulf

I'm sorry but this character is just fundamentally flawed. His peak is being able to kill off of an incoming airgrab with the longest cutscene combo in this game, and then the rest of his game plan is straight forward running at a wall as far as getting in, and deciding which part of his kit he should sabotage for diminishing returns. I sure love watching a Beowulf gamble his entire tournament run on a singular chair toss to get nothing in return, and then to die to my normal magic string which chips him to death. Very cool.

Character is designed to pair up with an assist that extends the cutscene, not really a fan personally of characters who rely on taunt buff, I preferred the version of beowulf that looped vortexs and got different stuff off of his different grab enders.

I would say take some power away from his cutscene combo game, and put it back into his neutral, honestly chair recall can be 1 hype for all I care.

One thing big time though, is that if he is chairless, and does a snap input, he should have the chair recall to him, and actually do the snap. Its silly that being chairless just means he misses out on options that can make or break HUGE matches.

Spoiler: Fukua

Fukua

Didnt realize it until I really sat down to write this post but holy shit she sucks. I see so much effort and like 6 resets and like 12 layered cake amounts of setplay in tournaments, just to see her get reversalled once by a glued up team and die. I honestly just say pump UP her damage, she really deserves more off of the amount of effort she gets. Maybe tone down some of her braindeadedness in exchange, like when she is right vertically above me and does nothing but ldart into air buttons.

But yeah watching KJ play so aggressively and fast, and getting like 5 resets and having to spend meter to convert off of those resets made me think wow, her damage output and her rewards seem even worse than like Robo right now, which is insane now that its all coming together to me like that.

âï¸ xd

30 seconds · Clipped by Merah · Original video "[Live] Mix Masters Online SA #3" by dekillsage

www.youtube.com

IF any place is a place to start, start with more forgiving shadow scaling, and not draining her life on clone hold

Spoiler: CereBella

Cerebella

The character is weaker than what she once was, and she just dropped off hard in tournaments. I think she can afford better rewards on her base kit, like having her overhead options back. She really just loses to upback now that her options are so committal. She was fine and could honestly just go back to her 2016 version. I miss fighting strong cerebellas in bracket, and not ones that need to supplement that accursed frametrap battlebutt + brass nonsense

also lmao marie powercrept her ass hard

Spoiler: Umbrella

Umbrella

Ravenous uptime is just too high. I'm sorry, she can be as strong as she is, which is to say, really really strong, but two pips and easily loop able and long pressure that just doesn't stop is crazy for a mode that's supposed to be this like, earnable power spike high.

Reduce the ravenous window to 1 square. Make no other changes

Dhalia Rage post cause im salty

Dhalia is really wonky right now, just a mish mash of bullets that arent really made equal and normals that are sluggish and slow and movement options that are comittal and predictable and not really varied. She reminds me of valentine but lacks the 8 options valentine has in the air. Bullets make up such a huge part of her gameplan, but she lacks flexibility with bullets, especially in a game like skullgirls where two specials back to back can trigger IPS. Please, make railgun wallbounce or wallsplat or knock up higher, or let dhalia cancel into onslaught when she does it, make electric way slower and not disappear if it goes offscreen inconsistently? I know we're toning down ice but like so many of her bullets just require so much setup and resources for situations where they really are not equally powerful.

Her reload special isn't in a good spot for me, you use H reload because its her best way to get random unique bullets, but she makes herself so vulnerable cycling through the defaults and then you probably need setup for the special bullet anyway, which takes even more setup

Regular -> Regular -> Fire is a good example of this

I think we can also remove her extra scaling punishment off of whiffed counter, its kinda crazy cause its funcitonally a DP but way worse because shes fukua level 5ing herself for what is essentially a blocked DP??? why???

Please give her speed just overall on so many of her normals, were still suffering from otg drops with standing light kick into standing medium kick, standing medium punch should probably pull in to make it more consistent, and either be faster, have better recovery, or just travel more farther?

This is a reach but make recovery on empty shot super fast? Maybe make it a playstyle and give her in essence a stance cancel? Kinda crazy she has a special dedicated to doing NOTHING, at its best it should atleast be like ringlet psyche?


C4 place should be a special, detonating it should also be a special, detonating it with freeze should cost 1 bar. It's so much setup for a move that deals like 700 at max scaling and is essentially her consistent "full undizzy combo ender super"

You should be able to hold a punch button during barrel kick, to instantly ignite the first puddle after a short frame delay, to make the super operate like a mvc2 pillar super, think Magnetos Shockwave

Revert her level 3 nerf, there was already immense counterplay to just hitting the girls, keep the snap function so its similar to other level 3's. Or make it like Ginyu DBZF super, where its a level 1 for 1 girl, and you can hold it up to 3 times for her old level 3? The girls are cool, I wish I could see them more incorporated into her default game plan, sucks how low impact they truly feel at a high level.

She feels very sluggish overall with her intentionally unique movement and there is so much stock into her bullets being what makes Dhalia, Dhalia, but not enough support to make them synergize with the rest of her kit, or even bullet to bullet.

 

[Chrono_Tata]

1) I don't know, you can take that up with the devs, I'm just stating what I've observed. Egret call's a charge input cause parasoul's a charge character. Annie's should have been 2 Kick buttons but devs like to make references down to their functionality. Why do you think Painwheel’s fly special is always qcb+K instead of K+K?

There are more reasons for a move be motion input -> button or just a single simultaneous button press than it just being a reference. A motion input needs you to buffer the input and locks out of doing other directions apart from those inputs. A simultaneous button press allows the move to be activated at any time without any buffering. Apart from some rare circumstances I think simultaneous buttons presses are always better.

While I can't speak for the devs, I think the reason it was designed with simultaneous button presses is that they wanted the cancel to be triggerable at any time without having to buffer for balance purposes - it is supposed to be flexible and strong. The reason I would think it requires 3 buttons instead of 2 is most likely because it is relatively easy to accidentally press 2 attack buttons at the same time or within the trigger window, but 3 buttons require a much more deliberate action.

 

[missingno]

I distinctly remember SG not having any three button inputs ever was a deliberate thing they've called attention to in the past. I do think it's something they should stick to.

 

[JuuseBox]

Spoiler: Fukua

Fukua

Didnt realize it until I really sat down to write this post but holy shit she sucks. I see so much effort and like 6 resets and like 12 layered cake amounts of setplay in tournaments, just to see her get reversalled once by a glued up team and die. I honestly just say pump UP her damage, she really deserves more off of the amount of effort she gets. Maybe tone down some of her braindeadedness in exchange, like when she is right vertically above me and does nothing but ldart into air buttons.

But yeah watching KJ play so aggressively and fast, and getting like 5 resets and having to spend meter to convert off of those resets made me think wow, her damage output and her rewards seem even worse than like Robo right now, which is insane now that its all coming together to me like that.

âï¸ xd

30 seconds · Clipped by Merah · Original video "[Live] Mix Masters Online SA #3" by dekillsage

www.youtube.com

IF any place is a place to start, start with more forgiving shadow scaling, and not draining her life on clone hold

Only giving my 2c on Fukua since ive played / labbed the character.

Fukua has bad things going for her:

1. Additional scaling on mixups with shadows granted by both flat combo scaling reductions and combo limitations.

2. Funneled into a low/throw or neutral/footsie game with abysmal return on anything that isnt a strike. No combo on air / ground throw, fireballs are difficult to impossible to convert from even at ranges where you'd want to use them.

3. Meter dependence for conversions. This doubles with her natural low damage and combo limitations. Spending a bar to convert off throw, dp, zoning confirms. BFF is a great super if you have M shadow availiable, terrible if not.

4. Poor resource gain / use despite being a zoner because of the unique way her fireballs and shadows work. Shadows drain health which complicate their nuetral / mixup use, fireballs dont grant the otherwise universal meter minimum for special moves, and only provide a significant benefit when several check boxes are met.

Now I think that clip is a tiny bit unfair to the state / strength of the character. Kaepoguru does 2 low risk / low return mixups. In the first mixup he wastes his free ud stage by autopiloting to j.hk and starts building undizzy on his reset, using 105ud total, wasting 70 ud when he only needed to spend 35. The second touch was suboptimal in the delays of the string to keep everything from building ud on top of routing into 5hp j.hk which doesnt really do anything at that high amount of ud. He could have stayed grounded, finished the string and gone for a mixup / burst bait with an m shadow extension, or simply take the screen space / advantage with 5hk and reset neutral considering hes playing fukua against bella who has to approach into him.

I dont type all this to shit on or target a particular player, but I dont think that a character should be deserving of buffs or nerfs due to the suboptimal play of one of their more high profile players. With fukua in particular there has been a bunch of development both reset and combo wise that players have yet to implement in their gameplan that help to mitigate some of the characters flaws.

I would be open to discussion on the difficulty of converting shadows in intense mixup situations, perhaps making them stage 1 starters with the same or slightly harsher scaling penalty to allow players room to confirm with an additional string prior to building undizzy. Or perhaps removing her combo limitations when shadows are used prior to ud tracking. Or even allowing supers like BFF to reset shadow usage to allow for consistent DHC potential and entice people to use shadows more.

My opinion is that Marie shares alot of similarities with fukua in her current state. Hilgarde = shadows but are air ok / harder to challenge bc armor / no health drain, double jump character with strong air hitboxes, dustbunny = lingering dart, marie command grab has solo meterless conversion potential, etc.

Anyways theres alot of help that the character could use. Its hard to feel like a zoner because pea / robo do it better with less delay between meter gain and more reward on zoning hits. Its hard to feel like a strike / throw character because your throws are terrible. And the one niche she did have with summons gets almost completely outclassed by Marie who does similar things with a large amount more qol.

 

[Triviality]

Now I think that clip is a tiny bit unfair to the state / strength of the character. Kaepoguru does 2 low risk / low return mixups. In the first mixup he wastes his free ud stage by autopiloting to j.hk and starts building undizzy on his reset, using 105ud total, wasting 70 ud when he only needed to spend 35. The second touch was suboptimal in the delays of the string to keep everything from building ud on top of routing into 5hp j.hk which doesnt really do anything at that high amount of ud. He could have stayed grounded, finished the string and gone for a mixup / burst bait with an m shadow extension, or simply take the screen space / advantage with 5hk and reset neutral considering hes playing fukua against bella who has to approach into him.

Wasnt meant to be a gaslight but sincerely there is a ton of tournament footage that's basically a variation of this. Fukua players doing 13 resets into get two touched dead

I would be open to discussion on the difficulty of converting shadows in intense mixup situations, perhaps making them stage 1 starters with the same or slightly harsher scaling penalty to allow players room to confirm with an additional string prior to building undizzy. Or perhaps removing her combo limitations when shadows are used prior to ud tracking. Or even allowing supers like BFF to reset shadow usage to allow for consistent DHC potential and entice people to use shadows more.

My opinion is that Marie shares alot of similarities with fukua in her current state. Hilgarde = shadows but are air ok / harder to challenge bc armor / no health drain, double jump character with strong air hitboxes, dustbunny = lingering dart, marie command grab has solo meterless conversion potential, etc.

Anyways theres alot of help that the character could use. Its hard to feel like a zoner because pea / robo do it better with less delay between meter gain and more reward on zoning hits. Its hard to feel like a strike / throw character because your throws are terrible. And the one niche she did have with summons gets almost completely outclassed by Marie who does similar things with a large amount more qol.

Stuff like stray hits having more hitstun, her shadows being less punishing, or just one stark change like "what if she could do multiple shadows at once is fine" I dont play the character but shes that one character where its like my third time eating a reset and I dont sigh with resolve to play my next incoming character like I do with the other half of the cast.

 

[JuuseBox]

No worries, I agree with you by the way. I do think theres room for Fukua to get love.

I just want to be clear that I think alot of Fukua players do exceptionally old school mix, when she has stuff that are vastly more rewarding and a decent amount of team comps that enable it.

 

[DEMACLIO]

Spoiler: Umbrella

Umbrella

Ravenous uptime is just too high. I'm sorry, she can be as strong as she is, which is to say, really really strong, but two pips and easily loop able and long pressure that just doesn't stop is crazy for a mode that's supposed to be this like, earnable power spike high.

Reduce the ravenous window to 1 square. Make no other changes

PREFACE: I play Umbrella and I'm biased

I think reducing the ravenous window to 1 pip is just too extreme. You have a valid argument for sure, but that would mess up the whole design of the hunger meter. She'd lose huge damage due to not being able to do rav DP > salt grinder to overstuffed combos, fall to starving halfway through her BnB and after a single mixup, and when that happens she'd need to use DP or consume stagger to comfortably stay afloat much more frequently than she already does, causing her to scale her combos far earlier and again still losing out on damage for it. Imagine finally getting to ravenous after working through four satiated pips only to do one mix up, have the opponent guess correctly, and then be in starving. Currently, it takes about 15 seconds for one pip to deplete from rav to starving, and trying to navigate neutral around heavy zoning or against characters that control the mid range really well is already enough of a struggle with her as is. Getting through all that only to make it there and be starving feels bad.

I think something way more reasonable is making her on-hit game/ravenous normals deplete her hunger more, that way she would be entirely the same but has to make every mix, hit, and combo while in rav matter a lot more in relation to the hunger meter as it's currently designed. Keeping her the same while changing the hunger meter is incredibly drastic, and making rav be that much more strict feels like an enjoyment imbalance for the person playing Umbrella vs the person playing against her. That is if it really is that much of a problem - it's hard for me to tell as someone who doesn't compete regularly despite being one of the stronger (and only) Umbrella players in my region.

 

[SonicFox]

My only thoughts is the Annie damage nerfs are extremely overkill I think. Characters like Filia's bnbs do more damage than her. She was always the heavy hitting character and I legitimately think her only massive issue in this game was Star Power at Level 2. I haven't messed too much with the level 3 but I definitely think tuning her damage back to roughly where it used to be is fine.

 

[G0ldenTw1g]

What is the state of Dahlia in the current meta?​

Black Dahlia is in a bit of a weird spot right now; not in need of many drastic changes to warrant BIG buffs, but also not necessarily a top pick for those who want a consistent setup character that truly lives up to the archetype. After witnessing the impressive performances in Mix Masters by players such as Reis, Mpgame, and even Triviality, all which make great use of her tools, it might make some people think that she isn’t in much need of buffs as is. However, in her current build, there’s still some inconsistencies and weak points to do with her super designs, bullet types, and reload.

In a game of great variety and flexibility, this character lacks both things given how much weaker you’d be if you went to experiment with tools such as her barrel or bullets (other than buck, fire or ice shot), for example: A simple synergy I've experimented with is barrel into Cerebella’s diamond dynamo as a corner dhc, it’s a cool synergy that is sadly extremely inconsistent due to how the barrel hit mechanics work. Dhc a bit too early and it explodes too fast, putting the opponent in otg before the last hit of the dhc conversion lands. This leads to very frustrating situations where a character falls out of the dhc combo and I end up in negative frames because of it. I suggest giving barrel the following buffs:
1. Make it consistent by giving it similar health and mechanics to Peacock’s Lenny, where it can reach 0 health but only explodes after a move that does enough damage ends. That way it becomes more reliable to use in corners or with multihits. To summarize, it would have health like it does now, but it wouldn't explode in the middle of a multi hit or super that put it at 0 health, instead waiting for the move to end before it detonates. Im not too sure if the way hits work currently should be changed, but I personally think that specific aspect is fine as it allows you to hit it without exploding it in neutral situations.
2. Increase the damage done by the explosion of the barrel itself. Right now it does 1.5k on base damage, and 1.9k on 130% scaling, with the puddles you’ll either pull less or a tiny bit more (like +90 dmg). That is very little damage for 1 bar in my opinion, and the only other things it offers is like, to try and hit an enemy’s assist, reload, or to block some projectiles, so I think it definitely warrants a damage buff despite these handful of uses.

On the topic of damage done by supers, I really see no point in using barrel or c4, right now you can reload super, load up on ice shot and win or use a specific loadout and get like 5x more damage from buckshot than from any other super. Moreover, it really bothers me how little damage you get from one bar with barrel, c4 and her lvl 3, like, why are the numbers so low? All characters except for Dahlia easily surpass 2k with all their supers, yet she has to go through the trouble of setting it up and THEN detonating it for very little reward? Or she uses her lvl 3 and memes for a couple seconds trying to open you up before the bunnies either get hit twice and die or just do some chip and leave. I think there would be so much potential in being able to do a full route with the lvl 3, perhaps pulling in like 13k damage. Honestly just give the bunnies anything, right now they’re probably the most lacking thing Dahlia has relative to how much bar you need.​

A couple of bigger changes I’d suggest that could allow for cool interactions with her kit are the following:

1. Add a reload that gives you the option to choose a specific bullet. In my opinion, the rng brings down the character a bit. I understand this was a vision of sorts for her design, but enough time has passed to where it becomes apparent that she needs more control over her bullets, and that the rng reload doesn’t come into play as much as initially thought. Using oki, barrel or just 5hp empowered would be so much better if I could use the time to pick the bullet I want at that moment. The new reload would come with its problems of course, but as long as there is a balance between all bullets it shouldn’t be an issue.
2. Add timed c4s. This would add so much to the c4 that we currently have, it could actually be utilized for setups. Imagine being able to stick a bomb on them as they’re falling into the oki from 2hp, then as it is about to explode, you do 5hp then teleport and the explosion crosses them up, devious as fuck. Not only that, but imagine the possibilities with team synergy. Obviously the timed ones would need some balancing to prevent them from being frustrating, like it could mirror the c4 Snake from Smash Bros has, where the c4 comes off the opponent if they freely move too much and it becomes a team-independent explosive, meaning it can hit both teams (funny). The way it should be added is similar to barrel, where the intensity of two of the punch buttons would determine what type of c4 it is:
- 236LkMk = short fuse c4, around 4 seconds
- 236LkHk = medium fuse c4, around 8 seconds
- 236MkHk = Actual normal c4, this might be too much but as an extra maybe add the option to spend another bar for a more damaging
explosion by inputting mkhk when detonating it (old c4 pausechamp)
(I saw triv’s idea of making c4 a special but I’d rather keep the abilities of it being a super whilst having these buffs than it just becoming a special in my opinion)

I believe all of these changes (on top of obvious ones like buffing bullet types) would make her a setup threat with many tricks up her sleeve, which is very fitting. Because of this, I don’t think it's a problem if she has this many things, as it is a part of her archetype, plus right now you can only lab so much until you reach a wall where there isn’t much more to do. I'm not a top Dahlia player by any stretch, but after a year I wanted to share my thoughts on the character and how she could have more potential setup options on hit.​

 

[Triviality]

My only thoughts is the Annie damage nerfs are extremely overkill I think. Characters like Filia's bnbs do more damage than her. She was always the heavy hitting character and I legitimately think her only massive issue in this game was Star Power at Level 2. I haven't messed too much with the level 3 but I definitely think tuning her damage back to roughly where it used to be is fine.

Reduce the damage nerfs to 50%-33% of their values (If a move lost 100 damage, give it back 50 or 65)
id even argue just revert the damage changes and maybe scale specific buttons [Scale combos harder from DP] but eh whatever Im not too versed
Im of the opinion that she doesnt even need nerfs personally cause shes a beatable character but I dont think we're avoiding that this cycle

What is the state of Dahlia in the current meta?​

Black Dahlia is in a bit of a weird spot right now; not in need of many drastic changes to warrant BIG buffs, but also not necessarily a top pick for those who want a consistent setup character that truly lives up to the archetype. After witnessing the impressive performances in Mix Masters by players such as Reis, Mpgame, and even Triviality, all which make great use of her tools, it might make some people think that she isn’t in much need of buffs as is. However, in her current build, there’s still some inconsistencies and weak points to do with her super designs, bullet types, and reload.

In a game of great variety and flexibility, this character lacks both things given how much weaker you’d be if you went to experiment with tools such as her barrel or bullets (other than buck, fire or ice shot), for example: A simple synergy I've experimented with is barrel into Cerebella’s diamond dynamo as a corner dhc, it’s a cool synergy that is sadly extremely inconsistent due to how the barrel hit mechanics work. Dhc a bit too early and it explodes too fast, putting the opponent in otg before the last hit of the dhc conversion lands. This leads to very frustrating situations where a character falls out of the dhc combo and I end up in negative frames because of it. I suggest giving barrel the following buffs:
1. Make it consistent by giving it similar health and mechanics to Peacock’s Lenny, where it can reach 0 health but only explodes after a move that does enough damage ends. That way it becomes more reliable to use in corners or with multihits. To summarize, it would have health like it does now, but it wouldn't explode in the middle of a multi hit or super that put it at 0 health, instead waiting for the move to end before it detonates. Im not too sure if the way hits work currently should be changed, but I personally think that specific aspect is fine as it allows you to hit it without exploding it in neutral situations.​

She's ironically the least flexible character in the game. Your committed into everything you do. Your committed to the bullets you pull, your committed to your blockstrings, your committed to the neutral Last Call reload sequence you use that the other opponent immediately has the info to play against because your fucking warplan is on the hud for them. And most of all your held back by her subpar damage.

2. Increase the damage done by the explosion of the barrel itself. Right now it does 1.5k on base damage, and 1.9k on 130% scaling, with the puddles you’ll either pull less or a tiny bit more (like +90 dmg). That is very little damage for 1 bar in my opinion, and the only other things it offers is like, to try and hit an enemy’s assist, reload, or to block some projectiles, so I think it definitely warrants a damage buff despite these handful of uses.
​

Barrel's Damage should scale higher based on how many times it banked a hit off of a character in a combo so people are rewarded better for routing for it. This scaling should not be present if another character is point (Prevents Dyanmo Barrel being a kill move)

On the topic of damage done by supers,​

What damage?

I really see no point in using barrel or c4, right now you can reload super, load up on ice shot and win or use a specific loadout and get like 5x more damage from buckshot than from any other super. Moreover, it really bothers me how little damage you get from one bar with barrel, c4 and her lvl 3, like, why are the numbers so low? All characters except for Dahlia easily surpass 2k with all their supers, yet she has to go through the trouble of setting it up and THEN detonating it for very little reward? Or she uses her lvl 3 and memes for a couple seconds trying to open you up before the bunnies either get hit twice and die or just do some chip and leave. I think there would be so much potential in being able to do a full route with the lvl 3, perhaps pulling in like 13k damage. Honestly just give the bunnies anything, right now they’re probably the most lacking thing Dahlia has relative to how much bar you need.​

C4 needs another rework
Barrel needs a way to auto ignite it from the flash (Magnetic Shockwave)
Girls Night Out needs to not be garbage
Last call should be straight up removed and being able to choose her bullets should be something she gets in neutral

A couple of bigger changes I’d suggest that could allow for cool interactions with her kit are the following:

1. Add a reload that gives you the option to choose a specific bullet. In my opinion, the rng brings down the character a bit. I understand this was a vision of sorts for her design, but enough time has passed to where it becomes apparent that she needs more control over her bullets, and that the rng reload doesn’t come into play as much as initially thought. Using oki, barrel or just 5hp empowered would be so much better if I could use the time to pick the bullet I want at that moment. The new reload would come with its problems of course, but as long as there is a balance between all bullets it shouldn’t be
​

Already confirmed not happening due to design intention. Her RNG isnt the thing bringing her down, its the fact that normal bullets are not good for a game like SG. Her combo and reset game are not improved by regular bullets

Top 1 character if Hreload gave her 6 unique random RNG bullets

2. Add timed c4s. This would add so much to the c4 that we currently have, it could actually be utilized for setups. Imagine being able to stick a bomb on them as they’re falling into the oki from 2hp, then as it is about to explode, you do 5hp then teleport and the explosion crosses them up, devious as fuck. Not only that, but imagine the possibilities with team synergy. Obviously the timed ones would need some balancing to prevent them from being frustrating, like it could mirror the c4 Snake from Smash Bros has, where the c4 comes off the opponent if they freely move too much and it becomes a team-independent explosive, meaning it can hit both teams (funny). The way it should be added is similar to barrel, where the intensity of two of the punch buttons would determine what type of c4 it is:
- 236LkMk = short fuse c4, around 4 seconds
- 236LkHk = medium fuse c4, around 8 seconds
- 236MkHk = Actual normal c4, this might be too much but as an extra maybe add the option to spend another bar for a more damaging
explosion by inputting mkhk when detonating it (old c4 pausechamp)
(I saw triv’s idea of making c4 a special but I’d rather keep the abilities of it being a super whilst having these buffs than it just becoming a special in my​

this is just mystic stare and umbrella already has it. Dhalia doesnt need that especially since current C4 is pretty much objectively better than this idea

 

[KuroOneHalf]

1. Make it consistent by giving it similar health and mechanics to Peacock’s Lenny, where it can reach 0 health but only explodes after a move that does enough damage ends

Worth noting this only happens for argus (and from the owner's Peacock). No other thing delays Lenny explosion, to my knowledge.

 

[G0ldenTw1g]

Barrel's Damage should scale higher based on how many times it banked a hit off of a character in a combo so people are rewarded better for routing for it. This scaling should not be present if another character is point (Prevents Dyanmo Barrel being a kill move)

This could be another buff but I just want consistency more than anything with barrel, giving it good damage straight up makes it more desirable to use, to be honest making it so that it does above average damage from specific routes is cool and all but in certain situations, such as being in midscreen, it would make it useless and finicky imo. Not only is the weird hit mechanics a prevalent issue, but something else I didn't bring up cause it's slightly obscure (Like nobody uses it tho it would be cool if it was a thing) is the fact that the middle-distance barrel deploy (236lkhk) ALMOST lines up perfectly with some characters after doing empowered 2hp, whilst it lands completely behind other characters. I don't see anyone really using this setup, but imo it could be worthwhile if it was made reliable. Against someone like double, who it aligns perfectly with, you can rush up and do 5hp, hitting the character AND the barrel, which seems to be -1 to -3 when cancelled into doily deploy, if it hits, you can very easily pick up with 2hk empower.
I wish cool interactions like that to be made consistent, because right now the barrel just kinda slips past the skinnier characters in oki, and it is also at a distance where onslaught jlk to detonate it are awkward cause you have to dash up twice into onslaught, tho this can be slightly mitigated by doing 5lk 2hp since the character is thrown a slightly longer distance. Another way to mitigate it is to walk backwards a bit and deploy it, but this means you can't do stuff like any special into 236lkhk, which REALLY sucks.​

This isn't a popular buff idea or anything but PLEASE make it so that the 236lkhk barrel distance is slightly decreased in Dahlia's ice nerf patch, for my sanity :emoji_62:

Already confirmed not happening due to design intention. Her RNG isnt the thing bringing her down, its the fact that normal bullets are not good for a game like SG. Her combo and reset game are not improved by regular bullets

Top 1 character if Hreload gave her 6 unique random RNG bullets

Yea I forgot that Liam mentioned that, at the very least all I'd like is just for Last Call to have less recovery frames, as to make it more flexible with conversions. I disagree with rng not bringing her down cause when/if they buff other bullet types (or even if they JUST nerfed ice) it's gonna be really annoying not being able to choose the one specific bullet that you want to do the specific setup with at that moment, instead you'll get railshot standard shot electric shot when you were trying to do a cool barrel setup with fire or buckshot (last time I bring up barrel fr) and so I can't be as cool as Val, Umby or Beo cause I can't have precise control of my character mechanic without having to spend a bar, it's like her whole cool gimmick is just being brought down by rng. Imo the concept of reload ,shoot, reload, shoot is already a thing, thats the way a lot of people play her, the bullet gimmicks wouldnt really do much other than make you predictable ("omg she's going to the ground and reloading ice shot for the 50th time!!!" thats like more than a second per shot, would be very ineffective unless you use beam or brass but that could be a playstyle of its own, not like there aren't more oppressive zoning characters in the game already) This also really sucks for matchups cause you'll lab this setup against a specific character weight but only being able to rely on Last Call to do it, it just locks out the possibilities which I think should really be considered before the character heads into the direction of "random bullshit go!!!11!" cause all you can do is rng your way to the bullets that matches your team's playstyle, or just be like "i dont care lmao" while calling beam and just throwing whatever bullets you get at the enemy. But if Liam is truly locked in with the rng aspect of reload then Last Call needs a slight buff for the sake of consistency.​

this is just mystic stare and umbrella already has it. Dhalia doesnt need that especially since current C4 is pretty much objectively better than this idea

This idea is kinda aight in hindsight, I just want more with c4 cause rn its the button you use to kill when the opponent is at full undizzy and 1hp, and that's about all it does. Also my idea had more to do with adding c4 types depending on lp,mp,hp inputs (except for mphp), not really changing the current one.

Worth noting this only happens for argus (and from the owner's Peacock). No other thing delays Lenny explosion, to my knowledge.

Yea ik, I said I wanted the health mechanics to be similar, not one to one with Lenny, cause that'd be dumb.

 

[Controlfreak69]

I'll just get this out of the way. Lenny nerfs need to be directly targeted at happy birthday kill combos, and oppressive neutral potential. Playing it safe by just making peacock not able to gain meter when Lenny is out seems fair, removing CH damage or just honestly not letting it hit an assist when the point character is not in HitStun also just seems like a big change to just get that nonsense out of there. Start small please, Annie nerfs feel like a good bar for what bringing down top tiers should be.

Item drop going away when you hit her is super fair, this would encourage more people to swing at her, and I think encouraging counter play is the way to go for most of my balance perspective/philosophy, please do that if nothing else (there will probably be lots else)

Dont let bombs go away on hit, Good players seperate themselves from bad players in bracket when they know how to make the most or work around an active george. Definetely tone down the reward a peacock player gets by forcing an interactive decision (Space or reset) scale the combo to 10%

Hello triv, I would say I mostly disagree with the peacock change you presented or thought of. I'm mostly thinking of the game overall/in general rather peacock herself (although she will still be the prime focus of course)

I'm kinda writing this and thinking as I go so what I may say could be wrong or I'm just being bias, but here is my reasons why I think peacock bomb should go away or at least have a delay when she is getting hit. (May be small or long not sure)

I feel like if you approached peacock good and be patient with how her zoning should be, you should be rewarded for that, she consistently runs away and just have alot of tools to keep the opponent away from her, (back air dash and J.HP to help her push further back and just have double jump) it feel good being right against peacock, until you have a bomb walk, or fly towards you and you have to change your combo, drop your combo (block) or you get CH and she combo you for a bit and runs away and you back to square 1. Changing your combos isn't that much of a problem really, but it's just why change it when my health is 70-60% gone because I'm chasing peacock around when she consistently builds meter for free and chips me to death? (Add the common assist for peacock she is set)

I don't mind if she is blocking and bomb is coming for me, that's cool, it becomes a problem when you are right against peacock and you don't get rewarded for it. In my opinion Lenny should be the one to cover that kind of "counter" for her. Make her use her own meter to be in that state to where she thinks "Lenny is on the field, either you gonna take the hit or back off" L Bomb or H bomb shouldn't do that do that for her

Also I understand Lenny can maybe be a double edge sword since there is a chance you'll full take the full hit or it won't hit nobody depending on what's happening) but again in that state for peacock it should be a risk/reward kind of thing for her.


I do hope this made sense, sure I'm probably not a high top player like you or others but it's not fun being right, patient with peacock and still get punished for her because she called a bomb at the last sec before I hit her. Thank u for reading ^^

 

[ReyMercury YT]

What is the state of Dahlia in the current meta?​

Dhalia Rage post cause im salty

i feel all said here in a spiritual level.

Dahlia is a setup character. Usually setup characters start a bit below average strength and after they get their stuff out they become above average strength in certain aspects.

So WHY when i set up barrel to do damage does it do less than most supers??
Why do i have to setup C4 and then they have 4 frames to react to the explosion?? Squigly has Sing+SBO that she can do without having to hit the opponent and set it up first!
You have to setup a teleport before being able to use it, and your "reversal" (counter) is like setting up a DP, thats still minus on block/bait.
Girls Night (lvl 3) is lacklusting. i would love to be able to use a single bar to summon 1 bunny instead of what we currently have which only purpose is "win more" or assure an almost already won match. Cause as a comeback tool its not that great for how expensive it is, and as a safe DHC its prone to ACs.
Ice is OP, but aside from Ice and Shotgun, all other bullets are subpar proyectiles. You have to manage the bullet resource by reloading and all bullets go away when you get hit. Literally no other zoner has to replenish a resource to fire proyectiles and some of them dont go away on getting hit either.
We have airdash at home. DP at home. Teleport at home. Sing+SBO at home.
She commits to everything, like Triv already said. If you do a medium/heavy on block, you will lose your turn since bullets are -1 (ice/shotgun are plus).
To safely confirm her 5HP Overhead she either has to wait and lose OTG then confirm into Empower. This is so you can L Shot on reaction to a block. Or save the OTG by doing Empower right away at the cost of being death on block.
And she spends meter early in the combo for average or less than average damage. HER INSTALL OPTIMAL DEALS 7.3K and she uses the bar first string!
Her teambuilding theory goes against the norm, she wants to play point (there are exceptions) cause as mid she is Annie at home with a worse assist. And at point she wants to Tag Out, not DHC (there are exceptions).

If we are trully gonna get ice shot nerfed, which is currently the saving grace of the character, i'd like to see other moves get buffed.
Things that'd be cool to test in a beta build:
-Girl's Night being 1 bar per girl:
214LP+MP = Buttercup (Pistol)
214LP+HP = Bonnie (Shotgun)
214MP+HP = Killer (Knife)
You can repeat the motion quickly to summon up to the 3 of them, so like, 214LP+MP > 214MP+HP would summon Pistol+Knife for 2 bars for example.
This alone would make Dahlia so fcking cool and the girls usable, imagine the DHC potential!
Right now i barely if at all use her LvL 3, maybe only as a safe DHC after a blocked SSJ. With this tweak i'd be using it almost always, and it would trully feel like Dahlia is a Medici Mafia Boss.

C4 could drain meter when waiting for it to explode and deal more damage, currently apart from being toxic there is no reason to wait the explosion.
It could also maybe use Empower to make the explosion a superflash. Or maybe spend another bar for it to be a superflash and deal more damage.

im with Triv on Barrel being able to insta-ignite, at least if we are gonna keep its damage as its currently, yes.
(Maybe using empower to insta-ignite it or something?)

Counter should not be punishable on block/bait. Instead of -11, make it -4. We already gambled whether we were gonna get hit or not and successfully got the read, punishing the player after that feels awful.

Onslaught being 3 fixed distance jumps would be better IMO than the tracking we currently have.
Upclose its better to dash than Onslaught, and far away its better to Onslaught than dash, this is due to how the tracking works.
It makes things weird sometimes (mostly in neutral) for no reason when 3 fixed distances would enhance her rushdown potential by allowing the player to use Far Onslaught upclose and catch opponents backdashing.

I liked the Reload ideas proposed by Liam. M Reload is gonna be devious to find a purpose for but as long as we get special bullets earlier on H its gonna be fine. Normal bullets dont really do much, you usually H Reload and shoot just to cycle through the normals to get the 3rd special anyways.

Empowered Reload would be awesome too.

She feels like she has a lot of cool stuff going on but you cant pressure as hard as most of the cast, your getaway game doesnt work against any proyectile user or anyone with a horizontal assist really. And the reward for hitting the opponent is low damage-wise.

She is not low tier, but neither top tier, if ice shot is getting nerfed (and jHK for some reason) please look into some of these things.

 

[Triviality]

I feel like if you approached peacock good and be patient with how her zoning should be, you should be rewarded for that, she consistently runs away and just have alot of tools to keep the opponent away from her, (back air dash and J.HP to help her push further back and just have double jump) it feel good being right against peacock, until you have a bomb walk, or fly towards you and you have to change your combo, drop your combo (block) or you get CH and she combo you for a bit and runs away and you back to square 1. Changing your combos isn't that much of a problem really, but it's just why change it when my health is 70-60% gone because I'm chasing peacock around when she consistently builds meter for free and chips me to death? (Add the common assist for peacock she is set)

The entire thesis of the characters design is that she has openings in her zoning patterns, especially H-George. When you approach, its not just about being in front of her to hit her, she's spamming specials and moves that she has to commit to as an individual character. Liam's proposing the changes to make the projectiles deal less damage which is a step in the right direction for that sentiment that it really does feel like you have limited chances to hit her, but understanding how to fight peacock means you unironically demolish 90% of her player base.

You also take away that actual counter play that raise the games skill ceiling. I know a Parasol player is good if they use sniper shot and the George coming toward them as an extension, or a Val is good whose routing with an aerial bypass to get out of the way, or a cerebella who uses it for a mid combo reflect.

I don't mind if she is blocking and bomb is coming for me, that's cool, it becomes a problem when you are right against peacock and you don't get rewarded for it. In my opinion Lenny should be the one to cover that kind of "counter" for her. Make her use her own meter to be in that state to where she thinks "Lenny is on the field, either you gonna take the hit or back off" L Bomb or H bomb shouldn't do that do that for her

Lenny has startup frames on his explosion that you can react to with an invincible move if you know its coming, I'm surprised so many people just don't feel confident to play inside it and just back off until it detonates. This is the big damage super equivalent of just hit fortunes head.

Also I understand Lenny can maybe be a double edge sword since there is a chance you'll full take the full hit or it won't hit nobody depending on what's happening) but again in that state for peacock it should be a risk/reward kind of thing for her.

see above

I do hope this made sense, sure I'm probably not a high top player like you or others but it's not fun being right, patient with peacock and still get punished for her because she called a bomb at the last sec before I hit her. Thank u for reading ^^

It makes sense and I get it, but at the same time there's a level of interaction to peacock bombs and her zoning that I have a player have learned to abuse, that others that are genuinely outplaying me abuse as well. It existing as is cements who is putting the work to be better, and I want that to persist. Thank you for writing it up, appreciate you <3

 

[ShakyFingers]

Spoiler: CereBella

Cerebella

The character is weaker than what she once was, and she just dropped off hard in tournaments. I think she can afford better rewards on her base kit, like having her overhead options back. She really just loses to upback now that her options are so committal. She was fine and could honestly just go back to her 2016 version. I miss fighting strong cerebellas in bracket, and not ones that need to supplement that accursed frametrap battlebutt + brass nonsense

also lmao marie powercrept her ass hard

I think Bella's in a fine spot honestly. Do I think she's still top tier? Nah, maybe not. I think Annie and Umbrella kinda pushed her out, but I still think she's incredibly strong and is easily capable of slipping back into top 5 depending on how the balance patches go. The only changes I'd really like to see still are small changes.

1. Her standing pushblock not pulling her out of the corner so she isn't eating crossups in situations no one else does.
2. Pummel Horse leaving her *slightly* closer so the cMP link isn't a coin flip on Painwheel.
3. Looking at copter>dynamo AGAIN because no matter how many times the devs have tried to fix this silly combo, the dynamo STILL loves to turn around sometimes.

Otherwise I think she's fantastic. She's got a small handful of tough matchups, but they're not any that she hasn't been dealin' with for all her life now. Val, Robo, Painwheel, Fortune(if they have an actual headless game otherwise I think it's even) she's been struggling with forever now, and then Umbrella is tough and Dahlia is kinda tough, and then everyone else is in her favour(I think she checks Peacock extremely well as a notable example) or even. There may be better glue than her available now with Umbrella and Annie being strong contenders, but I dunno. I'm not the best right now so maybe my feelings about Bella are still a bit stuck in the past, so better Bella players than me should chime in too. I won't argue against buffs being thrown at her anyway :3

 

[Triviality]

I think Bella's in a fine spot honestly. Do I think she's still top tier? Nah, maybe not. I think Annie and Umbrella kinda pushed her out, but I still think she's incredibly strong and is easily capable of slipping back into top 5 depending on how the balance patches go. The only changes I'd really like to see still are small changes.

1. Her standing pushblock not pulling her out of the corner so she isn't eating crossups in situations no one else does.
2. Pummel Horse leaving her *slightly* closer so the cMP link isn't a coin flip on Painwheel.
3. Looking at copter>dynamo AGAIN because no matter how many times the devs have tried to fix this silly combo, the dynamo STILL loves to turn around sometimes.

Otherwise I think she's fantastic. She's got a small handful of tough matchups, but they're not any that she hasn't been dealin' with for all her life now. Val, Robo, Painwheel, Fortune(if they have an actual headless game otherwise I think it's even) she's been struggling with forever now, and then Umbrella is tough and Dahlia is kinda tough, and then everyone else is in her favour(I think she checks Peacock extremely well as a notable example) or even. There may be better glue than her available now with Umbrella and Annie being strong contenders, but I dunno. I'm not the best right now so maybe my feelings about Bella are still a bit stuck in the past, so better Bella players than me should chime in too. I won't argue against buffs being thrown at her anyway :3

I concede my word to you, dear friend. I personally wanna fight the version of Bella that took over the game from 2016, but I'm not a Bella player so I'm not really gonna be strong in how i feel about her.

"Annie and umbrella pushed her out"

Just you wait until you see Marie's command grab hitbox compared to merrygorilla

She can have a good overhead I think LOL please

That or let her cancel j.hp flight into elbow drop

 

[ShakyFingers]

Might see about getting a hold of better/more consistent Bella players like TJ/Biceps/Sage/Caio/I'm blanking on other Bella players sorry >.<
I'm way too inconsistent and I also acknowledge that I have some contrarian opinions about the game and certain characters here and there, so everything I say should basically be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[CaioLugon]

I also don't really think bella needs any significant buffs. She's already incredibly well rounded and even her worst match-ups feel much more manageable than other notable bad MUs in the game. I'll never agree that instant jhp overhead is a tool that she needs or that's healthy for the game at all.

Just you wait until you see Marie's command grab hitbox compared to merrygorilla

Marie vs Bella (both done from roundstart position)

What about it? Mgr is also 4f faster and does 1k more.

Spoiler: Changes/buffs I could see her getting

Bring back the buffer on jlp mash - This was very very very nice. Please bring it back.

Extend cmp hitbox down a bit so it otgs more consistently - So stuff like this doesn't happen

Grab bag not spending the opponent's otg on whiff - Old rule break that's still in somehow

Make excella leave the opponent closer in the air after the last hit - This is the most notable example, but if bella hits anything other than the point character on the first few frames like an assist or a lenny the whole super whiffs.

Make pummel horse leave opponents closer and reduce recovery a bit - There's the painwheel issue like shaky mentioned, but this link also feels tighter than it should be imo. Idk there's any frames to spare without making pummel into command grabs an issue tho (is that even an issue?).

Increase hitstop on elbow drop and make the combo stage consistent - I'd really appreciate a bit more leniency to convert from elbow but not knowing if i'll be on stage 2 or 3 kills me every time.

Overhead on glide jHP - You have to be asleep to get hit by it normally so it's fine, but it was nice in a few situations.

Would also very much appreciate the copter dynamo and the pushblock issues getting looked at

 

[Triviality]

Spoiler: Changes/buffs I could see her getting

Bring back the buffer on jlp mash - This was very very very nice. Please bring it back.

Extend cmp hitbox down a bit so it otgs more consistently - So stuff like this doesn't happen

Grab bag not spending the opponent's otg on whiff - Old rule break that's still in somehow

Make excella leave the opponent closer in the air after the last hit - This is the most notable example, but if bella hits anything other than the point character on the first few frames like an assist or a lenny the whole super whiffs.

Make pummel horse leave opponents closer and reduce recovery a bit - There's the painwheel issue like shaky mentioned, but this link also feels tighter than it should be imo. Idk there's any frames to spare without making pummel into command grabs an issue tho (is that even an issue?).

Increase hitstop on elbow drop and make the combo stage consistent - I'd really appreciate a bit more leniency to convert from elbow but not knowing if i'll be on stage 2 or 3 kills me every time.

Overhead on glide jHP - You have to be asleep to get hit by it normally so it's fine, but it was nice in a few situations.

Would also very much appreciate the copter dynamo and the pushblock issues getting looked at

This list made me giggle cause these are the kind of problems I'll never live through cause I don't play bella but LOL THAT C.MP CLIP

That 4 frame 1k damage difference is pale compared to Marie's giant armored built in lock n load assist and dust bunny threatening you for swinging while she can be somewhat spaced from you considering that vacuum grab has the hitbox the size of a small schoolbus

 

[SeaJay]

I think Bella's in a pretty good spot personally, but I wouldn't say no to most of the little tweaks Caio suggested. Some matchups feel tough for me (like RF and PW) but hey that's life.

If we're asking for smaller qol stuff then

- Pummel Horse's post-grab animation getting sped up (again!). She already has a lot of lengthy hitgrabs and wallbounces in her combos, so it might be nice to make combos less of a movie to sit through.
- that thing that Pika_Bat complains about all the time where if you input instant elbow too perfectly then you get a rising j.MP instead, but afaik that's already tracked as a bug and will be fixed at some point.
- attacks having a buffer after DDrop (making it like Dynamo) would be real nice for conversions
- special+assist inputs having a buffer after DDrop/Dynamo would make the weaker/niche conversion assists more viable

 

[the_rpg_king]

I am loving Annie's new Star Power so far. I feel like it should be renamed from Star Power to Star Overdrive to better reflect the changes to her Star Power. But do you know what it needs? A timer gauge that appears during Overdrive-style Blockbusters like Painwheel's Hatred Install and Annie's Star Power for example. But has to be character-specific.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Reminder that Liam has requested we keep posts on topic and relevant for this thread. Low effort posts/copy pastas/shitposts etc will be removed going forward.

 

[Façade]

I think the Annie damage nerfs are a step in the right direction. Although I could see the damage nerfs on her normals being scaled back a bit, the more egregious cases should stay as they are. I'm sorry, but you can't convince me that H DP doing 1100 damage with no forced scaling is anything but over-tuned. The install rework is interesting, but I still wish you weren't required to push 3 buttons at the same time to activate Star Cancel. I'm aware what the move is in reference to, that doesn't justify breaking the established design decision where no move in SG requires you to press 3 buttons at once.

 

[hunter half hands]

So I have thought about this a lot and run into this issue personally a lot only due to my personal limitations but I wanted to bring it up regardless for accessibility sake. Is there any feasible way to disable dash and assist macros on normals or have an alternate method for them, i very much understand why they are the way they are and pb baits exist so i get why at least for dash macro and fully understand if id simply have to live with it but getting assist call instead of lk>mk and losing for it simply because the way i HAVE to input the string due to my hands is really discouraging and full candidacy depressing at times. There's only so much i and others with limited motor function can do to work around these things and i have been trying to for a long time and even seen people stop learning the game for the lack of control accessibility compared to say dbfz which has said options. I fully understand i am in the minority on this issue but i just wanted to put it out there because i feel as if i dont no one will

 

[dekillsage]

I've spent a lot of my time playing the beta and I'm pretty disappointed in the way the game is currently played now that all the dlc characters are in play. There is too much talk about 2 touch vs 3 touch which was super relevant in 2022, but since the meta has changed and the other dlc characters became part of the game I really think the conversation should be about how much these new characters get away with.

Prior to the full DLC cast SG in my opinion always had a balance between rushdown, zoning, and defensive play. Recently the game is so far into defensive play and zoning that its hardly recognizable to me anymore. Calling beam assist while jumping to the top of the screen and putting out my combo breaking projectile that gives me a stage 2 combo, what is this? Every DLC character has been released with combo starting projectiles that combo breaks and controls the entire pace of the neutral game while active. All this on top of 3/4 of the dlc characters having aqua man trait built into their kits and way too many low profile options. Dahlia hurtbox is also so thin I'm sitting here thinking to myself why do I have to give up so much for consistency as Filia when each DLC character auto fixes their combos and get max damage while doing it.

Peacock has too many combo breaking moves too. Item drop being toned down needs to be the #1 priority when it comes to her, followed by Lenny.
Toning down those two moves in a significant way should be enough, and I would recommend doing this before trying anything else.

Annie's changes do not instill confidence in me. The install change is a work in progress so I'm not pressed about it, but lowering her damage to this extent feels so out of touch. I understand the idea of it being the only changes we got so far, but if the games changes are all like this then its an easy drop for me. I am not fighting these killer instinct/strive characters with this damage output.

I understand wanting to nerf the DHC damage scaling. It matches up a lot with the other single hit dhc supers. Her on point damage does not need to be nerfed this hard. She does not have a prehit mix up strong enough to warrant that. She is currently carried by Beam/Extend to get a powerful prehit mix up. Fortune/Filia/Bella/Peacock etc just look at me, do a 50/50, and then hit harder. Let's boost it back up a bit.

I hope we can get some updates at all even if its just verbal. We're already in the middle of January with nothing said (to my knowledge). At the moment the current damage is what's keeping me playing in the current meta, and I really want to see some of the underplayed characters get their boosts/quality of life changes experimented with already. Best of luck.

 

[sheep]

TL;DR, going forward with brella, if possible, I would think that she needs her fd hierarchy toppled (but with only slightly poor fd for purple/blue due to the implications of those states that I talk about below) because the main topic that everybody goes on about is how red completely overarches her other states

Spoiler: Brella thoughts #3205

everything I say here is mostly my beliefs in what sort of ideas I think should be explored, and these sorts of ideas in reality could be impossible/completely break her, but my one solid belief is reds power should be spread apart so she can thrive as a character that weaves between different states depending on what happens in a game and/or player decisions, not a character that has very strange matchups that turns into absurd advantage when she finds a crack to exploit


red/yellow could have satiated fd, while blue and purple have slightly worse fd but each state brings something new to table, whether it be different normal properties and/or specials

lessening total amount of pips could assist in state swaps, and we shant forget that both bubbles and consuming the opponents should have tied meanings to choices, e.g. blowing bubbles reducing hunger, butwhat the player wants is to be in red rather than blue, and vice versa

I think a nice starting point could be 2 2 2 (r, y, b) or 2 2 1 to perfectly line up with grinder/tt/throw chews (blue can afford to be 1 pip because its basically undroppable with ptooie uptime)

and with lessening total amounts of pips I suggest reducing grinder damage to a level that is comfortable but allowing her to do full grinds even if hungern is full, same with TT I would think, or a different system that would still keep the satisfaction of chewing people into little shreds of cloth in a similar vein to mashing beat extend or merkava throw having you mash all your buttons for higher damage


blue could act as a setplay/zoning position, but with slightly worse startup on normals and/or punch specials with purple sharing the same position of startup

wm could drag victims towards brella so corner mixups could exist

ptooie could add her retina sticky "bomb" to a target oh and/or ob with a reduced timer on detonation as to not feel obscenely oppressive? not sure if people would want more or less time, but if its a single bomb then I would assume people would prefer the bomb to have a reduced timer to deal with it faster, and of course kd is gone from ptooie in exchange for sticky bomb

blue bobble could be nullified like byakuya webs causing it to pop harmlessly, any normal type, but near the end of its lifespan it homes in on the opponent aggressively (may need to tweak other bubbles or new idea for bobble since I know people have strong feelings with how good camping bobble is in certain mus, could even extend enemies popping it across all states, not just blue)

normal wise I think having all the wallsplat and bounces is fun, but damage likely needs tweaks

I would imagine it would be fine to have something like -2 sns in this state with what she gets from it, or even -4

blue dp should be faster too, and imo I think blue grinder speed is a fine flavor with showing how hungern doesn't want to eat anymore, but I would want damage to be severely reduced in in blue as to not cheese the grind system mentioned earlier, as well as tt



red could still exist as it does today, without the ridiculous 4f button that she so loves in current state, but bubbles would end up spending 1 full pip of hunger gauge that puts her at risk of going into her worst state, purple

6lp could become a overhead, and 2mp becomes a low as usual, but..
perhaps this is a little audacious of me to say but would it be possible to nerf the range of 2mp by somehow "squashing" it down? it would not clash with the startup of her squeezing hungerns mouth and would seem natural in startup and recovery, and I don't think she needs /that/ much range

red TT still has the speed boost to unfurling his tongue, and here I would think its fine for umbrella to have fullscreen TT across all states, its easy to spot fullscreen unless your timing is good, which if your timing IS good its nice to have a callout option similar to giant step, keeping projectile destruction is fine too I think, doesn't really help her when hungerns upper jaw extends her hitbox forward and makes her prone to getting hit by projectiles faster

sns is admittedly tricky to balance in this state, with the 2mp sns hitconfirm being ridiculous with its easy to convert kd and generally plus on block, even with attempts to pbgc against it, so I think going hand in hand we should have 2mp have a VERY strong suction on hit in red instead of the wimpy one we currently have for 2hk conversions and instead convert into something like 2hp so the midrange feels more fair, while removing the kd on sns and allowing it to be unconvertable but scary in your face threat

rush could be faster in red, I'm not too concerned about a horizontally flawed but surprisingly powerful dp when it hits due to my beliefs of playing universal defensive mechanics if you're a character with poor meterless reversal options


some general things now across states

2hk becomes soft kd. combo sweep is literally just a extra low in her kit. absurd

part of the purpose behind empowered sns was better conversions and such but as far as anybody has cared it only exists as a boost to damage
when in the corner or the +4 ob it grants, due to the condition of blowing a bubble > popping it > sliding over it

if we care about flavor then we could make it so 2hp "licks up" his drool and lets her store a 1 use charge, a la headdrone/squig charge (squig uses charge to get stuff off throw midscreen) but she only gets the charge if she commits to both "hits" on a puddle

I would expect brellas throw to improve drastically if red lost less meaning, but it would either need a property that lets both red and blue to convert fairly, or force a players hand if they want to keep a state, like sideswap to convert to keep red or doing all chews for the wallbounce for blue (this might be char specific but yellow 1 tap throw into rush cancel nets you a conversion current patch in corner) or the above sns changes would give conversions

the range on throw is also very large and could be nerfed as a result


Overall I think her supers are well balanced outside of maybe utw being a ridiculous jail setup to drain ud on incoming, could reduce number of bubbles or light increase to falling speed of bubbles

mainly I think we should just remove the bonus to red with lvl 3 since its redundant, and let it exist as a big nuke ender in any state, and let the eating thing be visual on death like the a21 lvl 3 kill animation has her finishing the treat instead of having to feel like the character should be rewarded for guzzling down a character like a cat on shrimp


even if its something weaker than the red we have now I think I would much prefer the version of brella using different states to one that overwhelms the opponent with a constant barrage of obscene ticks into high low into death, but I understand if they just want to adjust some things and let her continue this way, but I do not think my love for this character will keep going if its 1% about eating the opponent to control where my hunger is and 99% about sustaining red 24/7 365 days a year

I'm probably misproperly using comas this much but you get the point

 

[Shub]

I have very much been an observer in terms of this forum and have decided to make a post as to my thoughts for Painwheel changes as I have been playing her for awhile now and have some things that I would like to see.

I would like to preface that I prefer to play aggressively with PW attempting to drown my opponent in my pressure with stagger assist calls and reads on my opponents block. Whether or not I am successful. I am not above playing neutral however, but would prefer to see more options for me to get in rather than lay back and wait.

Spoiler: Normals

I don't necessarily see changes to the speed of her moves being improved changing how she functions and her pitfalls under pressure. While they would be happily accepted I don't see them making a huge impact.

I do have a problem with armoring a move into a losing trade. Many times I have armored a hit just to lose the interaction anyway. I will chop this up to a skill issue but would be interested in some for of experimentation. My buttons are so slow that even if the interaction is +0 I will likely lose outside of just going back into block. I know jab is the only move outside of hatred that has startup armor but I would be interested in seeing armor during the actual hitbox of moves or just 1 move rather than just the charge. I think having a certain move have armor during the hitbox and not during its charge (or both ;) 2mp Pausechamp) would give it an interesting use case.

I honestly am fine with a majority of her normals but would like to see 5mp make slightly larger so that some combo routes work against the smaller characters. I am fine with having to micro dash certain situations but as I have improved as a player the more I have ran into, Insert combo doesn't work on squig/umbrella because they are skinny. Which has work arounds for some routes but seems unnecessary. I doubt a major change would need to be implemented to address this.

Also hitting a max range 2lk 2mk into 5hp/2hp wiff feels awful and I would love to see something done about this. Whether it is 2lk 2mk L-buer or even 2lk 2mk 2hp into fly buttons I would love to see this issue addressed.

Oh JMP My beloved.

Specials:

Spoiler: Pinion

I honestly think the "bring pinion back" conversation is a waste of time. While it may be implemented in a way that provides utility I don't have a vision of it being something that would overall improve her current condition unless its fly cancelable or something like that. Which may be ill advised. I would be open to experimenting with the idea in practice but do not find it very interesting aside from an ebrake-esk movement option. Even if it was implemented in this way the startup on H would make it extremely linear and provide little use case.

Spoiler: Charged Nails

I think this could be interesting in terms of optimizing routes for max damage but aside from that I don't the most interest in it. I would happily experiment with it and how it affects neutral around characters like Robo-fortune where I find myself getting locked down and practically sitting on the ground doing nothing waiting for an opening to inch forward. But aside from those niche circumstance I don't see myself using it heavily.

Spoiler: Buer

Overall I don't have a ton to say about buer. It is my damage engine. It is painful and frustrating for it to wiff by mere pixels but it comes with the territory.

A slight buff to the length of L-buer would be welcome but is not expected.

I do have a gripe with H-buer wiffing on squigly in the corner after 5mp which I have to completely route around for my light specific corner route. This might just be a squig hurtbox issue but it is none the less frustrating.

Spoiler: Hatred Install

The idea of nerfing hatred damage does worry me. I do in fact play Painwheel as a mid but would not mind giving her a shot on point. My concern comes from the lack of utility that is gotten from hatred in comparison to other installs. While her not dying while armoring is a really cool use and something I love to use in dire situations it does feel very meh.

Hatred neutral is improved for only a few matchups while it has little to no affect on most. Have 1 additional hit of armor is usually negligible and does very little in practice. I do rely on armor quite heavily as a player but it is one of my favorite things about painwheel and I would love to see it expanded specifically within hatred.

If I am sacrificing damage are previously stated I expect to get utility to compensate at the very least. Whether it is fly speed or more armor of moves like jhp which I could use to get in. I would love to use install more than just "damage."

I do love that I have some way of cashing out with install (I think her lvl 3 is not good for damage, which is intentional because install provides vastly more damage in exchange for good execution which is a healthy balance for her). So with nerfs to install damage do we get lvl 3 damage? Or am I just giving up damage in general? I suppose I will have to wait and see.

With that being said:

Spoiler: Armor

I love armor. The mind game around armor into fly is really fun to play around and I have very little I would like to see adjusted.
I think her grounded buttons are in a decent state and committing to armor as someone falls on you with a multi hit to smoke your poor decision is simply a "skill issue."

I do think that adding a hit of armor to jhp would be a welcome addition. It would not change a ton involving situations where painwheel already has the advantage in a air to scenario but would alleviate some of the pressure from her worse air to air matchups. Making it easier to reaction thresher or just outright win a certain situation. I understand the pitfalls of implementing something like this but believe it should be experimented with at the very least.

Spoiler: Meter Gain

This is a pretty big one. I really have nothing to say that hasn't been said before.

It's bad. Really bad.

I expect it is being experimented with on some level. I am not going to act like I have a deep understanding of meter gain because I don't. Anything would be better than now aside from nerfs.

I would love to keep the conversation going on painwheel changes and I really loved the post that Lugon did addressing Painwheel before the beta discussion was reignited. Just about every painwheel player plays very differently from eachother and I enjoy seeing what others say. I hope we can find common ground on the changes.

Spoiler: Final Thoughts

I feel like this boils down to something.

Something. Just a crumb.

I love this character and the people who stick with her for a long time all feel this way. For all her faults and pitfalls.

I think that alot of people who have been playing base roster for a long time feel similarly.

I have hopes for the patch. While I do have my worries and concerns I will not act like they aren't beneath some level of excitement. Regardless I am more excited to get my hands on anything. Whether they will make it through to retail or not. I hope that that idea is carried by more players. Thanks for the work y'all do.

 

[Stuff]

So I ended up being too busy to actually document everything, sorry.

Painwheel imo is a character that's supposed to be really good at baiting and punishing, at the moment she's not the greatest at that (esp with the powercreep of the DLC, as it stands literally all of them have buttons that smoke her jMP for free.)

So here's a few things I want to suggest with that in mind, the ideas are up to interpretation as I can't program the game myself and have no idea what its limitations are but here they are as follows:

Spoiler: Painwheel's normals

Personally, I think her having slower buttons is fine, I really don't think a 7f jab is going to change anything if at all but that's just me if it gets added, whatever honestly because this character has alternative ways of punishing that no other character has access to and I would much rather see those be better but it is what it is.

5LP: Please don't remove the armor for the speed change, this button has its uses and timings
2LP: Please don't remove the armor for the speed change, this button has its uses and timings
5MP: This button is so edge case it hurts, it can work sometimes but considering it's a launcher that makes it hard to covert from so idk why you're buff this one specifically. Please make it so that my launcher does not whiff and get me killed. [edit: I see you guys fix routes for other characters and this one only needs mere pixels so what's up with that? "holding that" sucks.]
2MP: This button is THE armor button and because it's not a launcher it's easier to convert from, I understand your fear of giving Painwheel armor frames into the active frames but I really do think that if the condition is that I'm standing there for 20-40f waiting for my armor to be broken it's fair but I'm not you and can't seem to convince you, that stinks but I really do think you should try it again for longer than a week. If anything please buff this button so that the conversions are easier because fly cancelling this button to combo either kills you or wins games and it's because the hitstop seems to be fairly low between hits.
5HP: idk, this button is a combo tool and that's fine.
2HP: Similar feelings like 5HP though I do wish pw had a more viable grounded overhead since she's so obviously going to overhead you if she flies since she can't mix it up and drop a low not without it being the slowest mix up known to man Painwheel heavily relies on staggers and I really do wish that she had a better high/low game because imo rn it sucks ass and it's predictable as hell.

5LK: Just make this one the 7f one, who cares if it's long, not much is going to change I swear to God, I will pay you money if this somehow would change Painwheel by a lot but I know it won't so just do it, pleeeeeeeeeeease.
2LK: Fix max range
5MK: combo tool, who cares, fine as is
2MK: Fix max range [edit: with how many dlc characters just have dbfz buttons that move forward for you, this shouldn't be a hard fix though honestly I'd hate this as the solution, advancing normals are so fucking cringe.]
5HK: I really do wish this had more uses like why does this character have two launchers and this one is just okay and very specific use case shrug
2HK: Eh, it gets the job done ig, maybe it would be nice if you had a little more time to combo from but I don't care either way.
6HK: Can this button be useful? Why does it have different properties vs air, just make this one consistent and comboable all the time. Bonus idea: Make it fully disjointed, fuck it, this button is so useless it's not even funny.

jLP: I wish painwheel had something that hit above her
jMP: Great button, should be more disjointed imo but nobody is gonna like that one so I'll just... Good button, no notes, wish she had other good ones in the air.
jHP: Very niche, otherwise a combo tool. Look I like that she can do stuff like armor things into thresher but I hate how meter reliant that is on a character that builds none so idk. I don't have very many good suggestions on how to make this more useful.
jLK: I wish painwheel had something that hit above her
jMK: Good button, has some crossups with it, wish it consistently did that against the entire cast to give her some variation in mix up.
jHK: This button has potential but I really think what screws it up is the hitbox and the hitstop between hits, it's clearly built to cross up but it's so bad at that. Give her more hitbox behind her and add more hitstop between hits and also if possible have it drag down a bit, unless somebody has a specific mix up with its current properties in which case, just the hitbox increase would do a lot.

Painwheel and on block: I get that she's supposed to be really minus on block because she can fly but does she really have to be that minus on block on everything and trust me I know "If you fly unfly you're plus" that's cool, my low (and longest reaching normal) is 10f and I still have to land.

Spoiler: Painwheel's specials

L nails: does this really need the scaling penalty? This button is strictly a combo tool but buer exists so it just has the niche case of "can't buer > fly > button? Well here's this dogshit special. Woo.
M nails: Fine as is but I would prefer if charge times in general were faster.
H nails: Fine as is but I would prefer if charge times in general were faster.
Grounded buers: Don't really care, personally, more consistently combo-ing would be great I guess.
Air buers: I wish these were useful outside of combos but they aren't, would be so cool if fishing hits with these actually did something.
Flight: Personally I wish backwards flight was faster but I know everyone hates that, as it stands though, every character in the game can dash forward faster than pw can fly and every character can dash jump at her but whether or not people actually do the counter play is a whole other story shrug.

I also think her forward flight should be faster since imo her air movement in general is pretty tame despite having this whole ass mechanic that let's her do whatever other characters can't but it is what it is, idk how to make a good argument for it.

Another thing I heavily dislike is that she has a limited number of flights in neutral, it really sucks making good progress on zoning and closing the gap and... oops 0 flight cancels! so you just can't really do anything sometimes.

Unfly: I just wish this did more, as it is now, it's actually pretty underexplored but Painwheel can potentially punish every air blockstring in the game with Unfly Guard Cancel provided that you have meter and are God. Wish that was more down to human level but it is what it is. I also think it would be cool if successful UFGC's built meter or something, could be cool to have to use this more often, you can think of it as a part of hatred guard except this one absorbs meter.

Momentum from flight/unfly: I wish these were tweaked to have less reduction overall in every direction, though I think it might cause problems with normals moving further than intended but who knows. [Edit: I would still like to try this] If anything, have less reduction of momentum for unfly.

Spoiler: Painwheel's supers

Deathcrawl: This super sucks ass, make the hitbox bigger or something, idk anymore.
Thresher: Does this have to scale combos to 20%? That's absurdly high and it should be 50% like the rest of grab supers, as it stands throw combos deal roughly as much as CH thresher combos (both totaling to one bar spent.) Also if the hitstop was more usable that'd be cool but I really don't care because even if it was better it's still a major pain in the ass to even convert from at times. Can this please just be a consistent conversion? Idk why the previous dev was so afraid of this, literally every other character that can convert from their supers don't have it this bad. Also because this super is only convertable with fly can it PLEASE restore one flight per combo so that she can always convert?
Buer Overdrive: It's a super. Wish this one could detect whether it needs to keep going or not, I rather enjoy it as a really expensive get out of jail card but I think from DHC she should just detect whether there's a combo happening or not to either always hit or just to go with its normal behavior. Also I wish this was easier to convert from.
Hatred Install: To this day I think the rework sucks, it's been years now, it's just a combo tool and I fucking hate it. I miss the old Hatred Install where it had a niche of DHCing into zoner Painwheel and it was awesome, now it's just a lame combo tool people pretend is hype but it's so fucking lame.

[edit: I really don't care whether painwheel has good reversal options or not, I've always done extremely well finding holes to armor through or blocking as it's my only other option but like I keep saying, the armor is just not that good anymore and it's easy to break and pw is not like big band or cerebella where they have giant supers that hit anything out of armor. I always felt she didn't have good reversals because her tools make up for it by preventing those situations in the first place but at this moment in time, the tools are not rewarding enough to escape those situations and painwheel is stuck blocking or dying. Your call though ig.]

Spoiler: Hatred Guard

Here's why I don't want you guys to change how hatred guard works, namely the bonus you get from it.

Absorbing damage to reflect it later is not something anyone is aiming to do, it comes in handy sometimes but nobody is armoring with the intent to reflect the damage and to think that changing this for something else is flawed thinking because even if it did something else nobody is using the armor for the """""""""bonus""""""""" people are using it simply because it's armor and it's great for staggering and punishes NOT THE DAMAGE REFLECTION. I know it comes in handy sometimes but there's never a time I'm thinking "I will armor beowulf because if he does arm, he will eat 3k right then and there." I'm instead thinking "I will armor beowulf because if he does arm, I can punish him but if he does nothing, I will be able to stagger the next button." There's just never a time I'm like "damn good thing I explicitly was storing damage!!!!!!!" because it sucks. It's great armor tho.

Spoiler: Painwheel snap

JUST MAKE IT LAUNCH HIGHER OH MY GOD

I'm very sorry for the insane scrawlings of a lunatic but currently this character is just so powercrept that all her flaws are now painfully unmanageable.

Also about the overall meta, this meta sucks ass everyone just has to learn combos now and that's lame everyone just play cookie cutter teams now and that's lame. What's causing that and how can I provide insight on how to make that better? No idea, sorry.

I don't particularly think offense or defense is too strong but I just think a lot of DLC play by their own rules and the best assist characters are still the best assist characters and the name of the game is still committing the least amount of times but now it's so optimized you can kill from these less risky plays.

I miss when we'd reset each other for no reason, the game was cooler that way. Now it's just oops that's the 50/50 bro, you lost the coin flip rip thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat's skullgirls! Incoming? oops, that's the 50/50 bro, you lost the coin flip... etc.

Alrighty that's it from me, hope this game gets fun again.

Sorry again for the language used, I just don't care to save face anymore, this meta is abysmal and makes me so sad.

 

[Nuuance]

...

Spoiler: Painwheel's supers

Hatred Install: To this day I think the rework sucks, it's been years now, it's just a combo tool and I fucking hate it. I miss the old Hatred Install where it had a niche of DHCing into zoner Painwheel and it was awesome, now it's just a lame combo tool people pretend is hype but it's so fucking lame.

Spoiler: Hatred Guard

Here's why I don't want you guys to change how hatred guard works, namely the bonus you get from it.

Absorbing damage to reflect it later is not something anyone is aiming to do, it comes in handy sometimes but nobody is armoring with the intent to reflect the damage and to think that changing this for something else is flawed thinking because even if it did something else nobody is using the armor for the """""""""bonus""""""""" people are using it simply because it's armor and it's great for staggering and punishes NOT THE DAMAGE REFLECTION. I know it comes in handy sometimes but there's never a time I'm thinking "I will armor beowulf because if he does arm, he will eat 3k right then and there." I'm instead thinking "I will armor beowulf because if he does arm, I can punish him but if he does nothing, I will be able to stagger the next button." There's just never a time I'm like "damn good thing I explicitly was storing damage!!!!!!!" because it sucks. It's great armor tho.

I haven't played in some time, am incredibly incredibly rusty, and tbh really need to catch up on things so there's that, but checking back seeing what people are saying is nice. Waiting on certain changes before jumping back in.

I feel like it's a bit of a non-topic to say most painwheels dont use hatred guard as a damage multiplier because in all honesty it's not that good at doing it & the risk/reward jumps out the window with a meta like this. In the past a few've mentioned reworking it to actually give real numbers or feed into hatred install as a feeding method so the risk goes towards something completely tangible. Besides robo & annie...PW's the OG install character & her's is worse than her counterparts...

I love risk/reward. Why I picked up Eliza initially. But even with her, besides sekh which is kinda integral at filling in certain holes in a hammer-to-nail way, dude I just wanna spend blood & do cool shit & buff lame specials/supers. I dont see the problem. I know 'identity' can be a bad word these days or what a character 'needs' but I want to see legacy cast & legacy DLC get some of the stuff we've been asking for for years. Namely last couple years. Mechanics allowing more branches of play.

One recommendation tho regardless for PW...the additional damage should be shown as maybe blue slivers (or whatever color) falling off the health bar or something so people *see & feel* it. Even if it was changed to deal much more damage, UI/UX-wise that feedback would help so much more than just relying on the game it's working. Let us *experience* it.

Lastly, i miss the reset slot machine vibes too but I'm not the person who knows the solution to that problem.

 

[Controlfreak69]

Hello everyone! So to get straight to the point these are my ideas on how hatred guard could evolve into a high risk high reward kind of thing. If pw hatred install does get nerf, hatred guard could be like " hatred install at home" kind of thing, especially if her point game is gonna be stronger/better. But it would give her a reason and players a reason to use hatred guard alot more. (Just so we are clear I'm talking about the absorb damage and reflecting back, not the armor itself)


So you know how umby have the hunger bar for different modes? Hatred guard could be a percentage base below painwheel (10% 25% 70% 100% you get the idea) each time painwheel absorb an attack the number will go up. The way I think this could work is a normal attack could charge 5% a DP move could charge 25% and a super could charge 50% and maybe assist moves could give 10%. Number could change if it's either to high or to low just make it balance and fair.

The purpose for this is to only reach 50% and 100% which will now give cool interaction for painwheel. Once you reach 50% painwheel buer Attack will give bonus damage and (maybe) a stagger with it IF you hold down the Buer button (L, M, H) that way you can control when and where you want the bonuses to come out. (Think of umby cutie pootie when you hold it down the bar goes lower to get to rev) 50% of hatred guard gains 1 stack of stagger and 100% gains 2 stack of stagger. The damage for the bonus could be cap to 600 or higher or lower. Example buer doing let's say 1.5k the bonus allows it to reach 2.1k now. Maybe reaching 100% the damage is cut in half only giving 300 now but it's still alot.

Another thing that could work is IF you only reach 100% during any super will either do extra damage or allows you to confirm from it if you hold down the button of course. (Again giving you more control on when and where to use it)

If hatred install does get nerf to be weaker what could happen is it could flow into hatred guard. Example if you use hatred install the percent will slowly increase on its own, maybe depend how low your health is it could increase speed, not sure if the bonus should still be a thing in this state.

Just so it wasn't clear, using up the bonuses cuts it in half, so you use buer at 50% it goes back to 0, using it 100% cuts it down to 50. You can only have access to the bonuses in 50% or 100%



I hope I didn't confuse anyone l, I doubt painwheel will have this but just giving out ideas is fun and making hatred guard better will do wonders do pw. Also play painwheel thanks!

Ps when I meant give stagger I basically mean L buer stagger, M buer wall bounce, and H buer ground bounce, just like hatred install but with hatred guard when the conditions are met.

 

[Stuff]

The only thing I'll concede about that is that it gives Painwheel a way to control the secondary effect of hatred guard (which is great) but I'm gonna point out that changing it to what you're suggesting is a huge downgrade for the character in my personal opinion, here's why I feel that way:

Painwheel hatred install routes only do like 10-11k for 3 bars. and the only reason it gets that far is because deathcrawl in install does like 3k and you get these routes by using like almost every install buer.

Storing one Beo arm reflects roughly 1.4k (she loses 2.3k of her own health for this) so from a 2LK starter using 5HP to reflect the damage, you get 9.7k near corner.
Maximum health hatred reflection with a heavy normal is 11k for 1 bar. That's with a 2LK starter.
CH 5HP starter does like 13k and I didn't even bother optimizing it, she can probably TOD.

Outside of utility, which I'm unsure where it would apply, I think I'd rather keep the bonus as is. An installed buer or two isn't going to change much for this character imo. So if for some reason this has to get in, it would really need to come down to implementation because damage reflection the way it is now can at least also apply to an assist if you're hitting point and assist and that's way bigger than a boosted buer which only hits one character anyway.

The mechanic as it is now is like this:
So the common thing with Painwheel is that this sounds great on paper, if you store damage you can fish out something you can CH with 5HP and bam she's a TOD machine but in practice that's almost never the case because you can't easily avoid your hatred guard normals so you're bound to spend it accidentally at any point of the game.

I only feel it would end up the same.

While I hate the idea of changing hatred guard's secondary effect the only thing I'd suggest that would also work how hg already works but with more control would be to tack on that stored damage into her supers like how Buer Overdrive already does except you could also choose not to like how Big Band can decide whether to spend his taunt boost or not. So your bonus is still a lot of damage + now you have a lot more control over what you stored.

But I want to make it clear that if it's between this and another buff I'd really rather throw this one out first but I also don't want it in the first place.

 

[Controlfreak69]

The only thing I'll concede about that is that it gives Painwheel a way to control the secondary effect of hatred guard (which is great) but I'm gonna point out that changing it to what you're suggesting is a huge downgrade for the character in my personal opinion, here's why I feel that way:

Painwheel hatred install routes only do like 10-11k for 3 bars. and the only reason it gets that far is because deathcrawl in install does like 3k and you get these routes by using like almost every install buer.

Storing one Beo arm reflects roughly 1.4k (she loses 2.3k of her own health for this) so from a 2LK starter using 5HP to reflect the damage, you get 9.7k near corner.
Maximum health hatred reflection with a heavy normal is 11k for 1 bar. That's with a 2LK starter.
CH 5HP starter does like 13k and I didn't even bother optimizing it, she can probably TOD.

Outside of utility, which I'm unsure where it would apply, I think I'd rather keep the bonus as is. An installed buer or two isn't going to change much for this character imo. So if for some reason this has to get in, it would really need to come down to implementation because damage reflection the way it is now can at least also apply to an assist if you're hitting point and assist and that's way bigger than a boosted buer which only hits one character anyway.

The mechanic as it is now is like this:
So the common thing with Painwheel is that this sounds great on paper, if you store damage you can fish out something you can CH with 5HP and bam she's a TOD machine but in practice that's almost never the case because you can't easily avoid your hatred guard normals so you're bound to spend it accidentally at any point of the game.

I only feel it would end up the same.

While I hate the idea of changing hatred guard's secondary effect the only thing I'd suggest that would also work how hg already works but with more control would be to tack on that stored damage into her supers like how Buer Overdrive already does except you could also choose not to like how Big Band can decide whether to spend his taunt boost or not. So your bonus is still a lot of damage + now you have a lot more control over what you stored.

But I want to make it clear that if it's between this and another buff I'd really rather throw this one out first but I also don't want it in the first place.

Hello stuff! Hope your having a great day/weekend but I'll get to the point.


Basically this idea was more of a point painwheel thing since I'm assuming painwheel hatred install will get nerf along with the DMG (dhc or just overall I'm assuming) my version of the hatred guard will open up more opportunities for her and maybe just more damage for her normal bnb.

Maybe you are right she will probably do less damage with this kind of thing, but it was mostly just to make hatred guard be better or just have a better identity.

 

[Nuuance]

Hello everyone! So to get straight to the point these are my ideas on how hatred guard could evolve into a high risk high reward kind of thing. If pw hatred install does get nerf, hatred guard could be like " hatred install at home" kind of thing, especially if her point game is gonna be stronger/better. But it would give her a reason and players a reason to use hatred guard alot more. (Just so we are clear I'm talking about the absorb damage and reflecting back, not the armor itself)


So you know how umby have the hunger bar for different modes? Hatred guard could be a percentage base below painwheel (10% 25% 70% 100% you get the idea) each time painwheel absorb an attack the number will go up. The way I think this could work is a normal attack could charge 5% a DP move could charge 25% and a super could charge 50% and maybe assist moves could give 10%. Number could change if it's either to high or to low just make it balance and fair.

The purpose for this is to only reach 50% and 100% which will now give cool interaction for painwheel. Once you reach 50% painwheel buer Attack will give bonus damage and (maybe) a stagger with it IF you hold down the Buer button (L, M, H) that way you can control when and where you want the bonuses to come out. (Think of umby cutie pootie when you hold it down the bar goes lower to get to rev) 50% of hatred guard gains 1 stack of stagger and 100% gains 2 stack of stagger. The damage for the bonus could be cap to 600 or higher or lower. Example buer doing let's say 1.5k the bonus allows it to reach 2.1k now. Maybe reaching 100% the damage is cut in half only giving 300 now but it's still alot.

Another thing that could work is IF you only reach 100% during any super will either do extra damage or allows you to confirm from it if you hold down the button of course. (Again giving you more control on when and where to use it)

If hatred install does get nerf to be weaker what could happen is it could flow into hatred guard. Example if you use hatred install the percent will slowly increase on its own, maybe depend how low your health is it could increase speed, not sure if the bonus should still be a thing in this state.

Just so it wasn't clear, using up the bonuses cuts it in half, so you use buer at 50% it goes back to 0, using it 100% cuts it down to 50. You can only have access to the bonuses in 50% or 100%



I hope I didn't confuse anyone l, I doubt painwheel will have this but just giving out ideas is fun and making hatred guard better will do wonders do pw. Also play painwheel thanks!

Ps when I meant give stagger I basically mean L buer stagger, M buer wall bounce, and H buer ground bounce, just like hatred install but with hatred guard when the conditions are met.

feel like simply making a meter that fills up as you absorb damage getting a free install is simple & meaningful enough. Riskier stuff, faster it fills

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Since shadows will no longer require health to use (or, the idea is on the table based on Liam's last post), my suggestion is to allow Fukua to hold down a punch button for dart to perform a powered up version of the move that costs health to cast, but goes a bit further (maybe an extra bounce, or two fireballs distance further), and restores a decent, but reasonable net positive amount of health on hit. This would be a way better buff for her than HK Drill invincibility, which is insane, was removed for a reason and she should never get back.

 

[Stuff]

my version of the hatred guard will open up more opportunities for her and maybe just more damage for her normal bnb.

Could you extrapolate on that? Part of why I don't agree is that it's very vague and frankly the only hatred buers that would be useful would be the ones that send to corner but the thing is I just don't see much of an improvement for the character because the rest of her tools would still be lacking.

Regardless, I don't think install DHC combo being as strong as it is should really constitute a nerf since plenty of characters that are also exceptional on point 3 bar dhc TOD anyway. So to me it seems like a moot point.

I just really don't think it should be changed at all, it's a secondary effect so it was bound to always be half baked and any new ideas would be hard to balance because it would either be too good or worse. I really believe the focus should be on the armor itself since that's what wins games. The secondary effect highly relies on the primary effect imo. Which to me means, "Who cares if you have install buers on deck, you can't do anything if your armor breaks easily." so I'm pretty opposed to the idea since it doesn't fix anything Painwheel is currently bad at. I'd be more into the idea if it gave her like, HNK boost stocks or something but that's a ridiculous idea but I'd be more okay with it because Painwheel lacks good movement. (another stupid idea would be to let her FADC on armor that was hit but again, really stupid idea but at least it would help painwheel move out of things.)

Painwheel's weakest trait is that she has an alternative way to defense but that alternative way sucks atm and those would be what I feel should be improved. She's already good at attacking.

Though I'm ngl I don't like being in conjecture mode forever, I really hope this patch comes out soon and then I can give feedback otherwise, I don't feel like anything I point out is particularly useful since idk what they're up to.

 

[Nuuance]

Since shadows will no longer require health to use (or, the idea is on the table based on Liam's last post), my suggestion is to allow Fukua to hold down a punch button for dart to perform a powered up version of the move that costs health to cast, but goes a bit further (maybe an extra bounce, or two fireballs distance further), and restores a decent, but reasonable net positive amount of health on hit. This would be a way better buff for her than HK Drill invincibility, which is insane, was removed for a reason and she should never get back.

almost sounds like something eliza should have with her assist specials & blood/health...

:/

 

[05mario]

I’ve seen some of the fukua discussion in the past couple months and since my thoughts on what she needs has changed since I made my last post I thought I’d post again. The list of what I think she needs after even more time competing and playing with her is shorter and more concise than what I last posted. After messing with a character with a throw conversion and thinking about it some more fukua absolutely needs a meterless throw pickup of some sort. Her damage is already low in general, her pre hit is already on the weaker side, and she doesn’t build an outstanding amount of bar so forcing her to spend bar to neuter her damage even further really sucks. The recently introduced marie gets a free stage 2 throw pickup with a huge throw hitbox. Granted Marie’s is slower than fukua’s but if takes nerfing the frame data on fukua’s grab to get a pickup that's a trade off I’m sure many fukua players would be happy to take. A conversion that doesn’t force a m shadow pickup off her fast command grab would be ideal (so a similar pop up to what she gets on her armored command grab). If that would be too much, at least consider letting her pickup off her normal throw (tied for smallest in the game) with something that's not m shadow. Another big thing I’m running into that hopefully gets changed is the distance on clones. Initially I wanted them to get an unconditional one to two unit range buff but I’ve changed my mind on that. That would likely turn out to be incredibly unfun in neutral and remove some counterplay with dealing with clones which I dont think is a good thing. I’d much prefer clones to go significantly farther not during neutral but instead when the opponent is in hitstun to allow for long range confirms and it would eliminate the combo inconsistencies that can occur with clones at longer ranges and skinnier hurtboxes. Even if clones don’t get buffed to go significantly farther in hitstun at the very least add half a unit or so of distance to h clone so it doesn’t drop on things like 5hk m shadow [h clone] 2hp drill ]h clone[ or similar confirms on skinnier characters. In that same vein m clone should be adjusted slightly so characters like umby and squigly are easier to combo with the clone. Trying to combo umby with m clone midscreen is significantly more difficult than it should be and in the corner 5hk m clone does not work on squigly without significant delays that are incredibly annoying. One last thing with clones is maybe they shouldn't disappear when a projectile makes fukua block. Projectiles are already incredibly strong and having it invalidate one of a characters unique mechanics so completely feels awful. I used to think assists shouldn't make clones disappear but I think clones baiting out assists is an intersting application of them while you can't really bait out a projectile in the same fashion. H drill has many problems (slow startup, +0 on hit, almost no overlapping invul and active frames, strike invul, weak hitbox, difficult to happy birthday with midscreen with dhcs (or maybe with just gregor), no solo conversions outside the corner) and should probably be looked at in some fashion. It has way to many flaws for a character who is lacking is many other departments. I’m not sure what exactly should be done to it, but at least one or two of its flaws should get looked at.

It doesn’t seem like there are any plans to do anything with health drain other than outright remove it but if there is even a passing thought of keeping it and reworking it I ask that something is said about so players can give input/ideas towards what it could become.

Since shadows will no longer require health to use (or, the idea is on the table based on Liam's last post), my suggestion is to allow Fukua to hold down a punch button for dart to perform a powered up version of the move that costs health to cast, but goes a bit further (maybe an extra bounce, or two fireballs distance further), and restores a decent, but reasonable net positive amount of health on hit. This would be a way better buff for her than HK Drill invincibility, which is insane, was removed for a reason and she should never get back.

spending health for zoning as weak as fireballs even if they were buffed just wouldn't work out well. We can already see in part how something like that would play out with clones. Its not very hard to either not engage with the darts or just block them out and move on so making them cost health is kinda eh.