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Them's Fightin' Herds

I think that when "High standards" was mentioned, was most from the superficial point of view.

Like, huge roster, and stuff like that, people are saying that SFV releasing with 16 characters is not good, that they should have more characters day 1 and stuff like that.
 
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Probably. It's still weird considering people were getting hyped for Blazblue CT at 60$ with just ten characters a few years back. I guess +2 makes a big difference eh?

Than again, the SFV thing is probably because people are hesitant to downgrade to another Street Fighter variant with a smaller roster. Would probably be different if it were an all new liscense with a vastly different playstyle.
 
Well, i got USF4 because of the roster, i didn't knew better back then. =P

Oh R$ 90,00 totally wasted...

I don't know about blazblue.

When i think about TFH roster, i imagine: yeah, it is small. But i know that they are an independent group, not a giant corporation, and i preffer 6 balanced, diverse and interesting characters, than 20+ characters with 5 viable.

About vsav: God, so many fighting games that i missed in my entire life, the journey to play them all is tough.
 
How well did that donation drive do earlier this evening?
 
Squire Grooktook said:
The chance climbs to 100% if you do a perfect piano input, actually.
That's still bad design.

Squire Grooktook said:
It's roster is also ridiculously well balanced, with low tiers winning JP tournaments against top tiers to this day.
Nnnnnooooo....that's not true. The defensive systems are powerful and the damage is high, so a few good reads can close out a game or let you regenerate a lot, but Victor, Sasquatch, etc. do not qualify as "well balanced".

Squire Grooktook said:
I'd take the impeccable pace and unique playstyle of the game over SF4 or Blazblue's any day of the week though.
This, though, yes. "Fun" is important.
 
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Mike_Z said:
That's still bad design.

I agree, but it's a minor issue IMO and I'd take it over X-Factor a thousand fold.

Mike_Z said:
Nnnnnooooo....that's not true. The defensive systems are powerful and the damage is high, so a few good reads can close out a game or let you regenerate a lot, but Victor, Sasquatch, etc. do not qualify as "well balanced".

I'm not saying that Sasquatch isn't too strong or that Jedah/Anakaris/Lilith/Morrigan/Victor couldn't use a buff, but the worst characters are still viable and show up in tournaments.

Balance is pretty relative, though. Not saying it's perfectly balanced, but it's one of the better balanced games I've devoted time to IMO. And beyond balance there are a lot of strong game design fundamentals at work that I don't really see in a lot of modern games.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Point is, if you think "a higher standard of quality" exists today compared to yesterday, you're pretty drastically mistaken IMO. Especially if we're talking about the influential, big name titles.

Balance is definitely held to a higher standard than it could in the past, because we have patching now. Balance is a journey not a destination. Nowadays there's constant feedback between the players and the devs. Sean went from top tier in 2nd impact to bottom of the barrel in third strike, but I don't think he would be as bad as he ended up if capcom had been able to incrementally balance their games back then. Whether the core mechanics of a game are quality is a very different discussion.

Sotherius said:
I think that when "High standards" was mentioned, was most from the superficial point of view.

Like, huge roster, and stuff like that, people are saying that SFV releasing with 16 characters is not good, that they should have more characters day 1 and stuff like that.

Also yes this was my original point but it led somewhere interesting so yeah. Personally I would take a small cast that's added to over time over a big unbalanced cast where only half or less of them are viable.
 
Yeah, devs can make boorish, amateurish mistakes now and then make hasty patches later.

Thing is though, those mistakes are often signs of bigger, more fundamental problems. A true block string like this might be fixable, but the exploit is just a particularly glaring example of the lack of design fundamentals present throughout the entire game. Similarly, X-Factor is probably the biggest and most immediate piece of garbage in MVC3, but the move set design and pacing as a whole is similarly flawed (IMO).

From what I hear, a lot of people now think Vanilla Skullgirls was "bad", but IMO it had the fundamentals down.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
X-Factor is probably the biggest and most immediate piece of garbage in MVC3
If you really think this, you need to evaluate your standards again. (^.^)
Sure, XFactor has flaws (like Lv3 and that it shouldn't be different attributes per character) but it addresses one of the BIGGEST problems in MvC2 fairly well, actually.
 
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Mike_Z said:
If you really think this, you need to evaluate your standards again. (^.^)
Sure, XFactor has flaws (like Lv3 and that it shouldn't be different attributes per character) but it addresses one of the BIGGEST problems in MvC2 fairly well, actually.
IMO X-Factor addresses it in a way that's more distasteful than just leaving it be.

It can be worked around, but the whole idea of a "comeback mechanic", or at least one so drastic, takes the interest out of actual comebacks IMO. The fact that the match pretty much revolves around it to the extent that it does is a pretty unnatural wedge in the pacing/flow of the match too, I think.

That being said, I think X-Factor would be tolerable if the rest of the game was better, but as is it's just one of the more noticeable instances of mediocrity in an overall mediocre game (IMO).

No offense to anyone who enjoys MVC3. Subjective taste/opinions and whatnot. I guess mediocre might be a bit harsh, since the game is functional, but for me and many of my friends it was incredibly bland and disappointing.
 
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Level 1 X Factor is actually pretty cool
 
Adwins said:
How well did that donation drive do earlier this evening?
At the end they put together $205.00 and a bunch of people went away with a bunch of limited edition MLP memorabilia.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Level 1 X Factor is actually pretty cool
and marvel 3 still has the best character in every fighting game. :/
 
Mike_Z said:
If you really think this, you need to evaluate your standards again. (^.^)
Sure, XFactor has flaws (like Lv3 and that it shouldn't be different attributes per character) but it addresses one of the BIGGEST problems in MvC2 fairly well, actually.
I dunno... Marvel needed a more immediate burst mechanic.
 
Can someone tell me why people in this thread (and elsewhere) keep dissing SF4 balance?

USF4 @EVO2015 had, counting only the main chars,
- 8 different chars in Top8
- 14 different chars in Top16
- 20 different chars in Top24
- 23 different chars in Top32;
With an additional 7 different chars (for 30 total in the Top32) picked on the side.

Are you really comparing a 15 char game feat matchup charts like this to a giant 44 roster which has viable characters down to some #35, and then claim it is better balanced?.?

E: Mizuumi Wiki doesn't allow Hotlinks apparently
 
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I made this for some reason.
Arizona's headbutt looks like a sA but she has another move that's clearly a jab, they don't seem to be proximity based and it doesn't look like a command normal so I don't know what it might be.
I also kept thinking the giant ice wave thing Velvet has would be a sC which chained into her cC but she has that buck which looks a lot more like a sC. That's a pretty big sB she has.
All of this is speculation, of course.
 
@Oreo I noticed a questionable thing now that the stretch goal graph is up on the main page. So if you reach the funding level for the goat it turns out it will be DLC at a later date which is fine, you don't want to overburden the project too much. But it specifies free for backers only which means you want to charge the public at large for even one extra character at this stage of the game?

Something about that feels off to me, especially after the Skullgirls experience of having a few months to get new characters free that were already funded. 6 characters isn't so many that the promise of a new one down the road without having to pay $5 or more isn't appreciated by the people who are going to buy the completed game.

Starting down the nickel and dime DLC path already is not a good look for this project when the campaign is still at such an early stage looking for hundreds of thousands more in donations.
 
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Ryin said:
I made this for some reason.
Arizona's headbutt looks like a sA but she has another move that's clearly a jab, they don't seem to be proximity based and it doesn't look like a command normal so I don't know what it might be.
I also kept thinking the giant ice wave thing Velvet has would be a sC which chained into her cC but she has that buck which looks a lot more like a sC. That's a pretty big sB she has.
All of this is speculation, of course.

Assuming that the moves are the same as Fighting Is Magic, I should be able to help a bit. Arizona's j. B should be the drop kick, and the downward kick should be j. C. Pretty sure either the headbutt or the horn swipe is a special move, not sure which one though.

Velvet's big ice swipe should be s. C and the lunging kick is c. C. The ice sculpture attack is her Launcher, which is a separate command (Forward + C while crouching or "3C"). You could just label that "Launcher". Add Arizona's Launcher (should be a jumping headbutt thing) and that should be all the normals showcased in the demo.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Can someone tell me why people in this thread (and elsewhere) keep dissing SF4 balance?

USF4 @EVO2015 had, counting only the main chars,
- 8 different chars in Top8
- 14 different chars in Top16
- 20 different chars in Top24
- 23 different chars in Top32;
With an additional 7 different chars (for 30 total in the Top32) picked on the side.

Are you really comparing a 15 char game feat matchup charts like this to a giant 44 roster which has viable characters down to some #35, and then claim it is better balanced?.?

E: Mizuumi Wiki doesn't allow Hotlinks apparently

I'd say we mention it because it is germane to the conversation. It has a massive list of characters, many of whom are fundamentally flawed simply because of the size of the roster. Most characters simply don't have the tools to deal with all of the characters. Do you see 'Gief at high tiers? Snake Eyez says of course you do. Does that mean that Gief vs Sagat is a balanced match? E. Honda in the form of Ross shows the exact same issue there. Dhalsim? Yeah, you'll have some fantastic match-ups... but you'll have some terrible ones.

I'd make the argument that a big portion of pools isn't simply just playing well, but your relative match-ups as well. If Dieminion fought nothing but Vipers on his way to top 8... well, he'd probably not be in top 8.

That said, USFIV is much more balanced than it was. So, maybe you're right. Maybe it isn't the best example anymore, but I think my point that instead of a massive roster, they'd have been better polishing each character also stands. There is a reason everyone seems to have a pocket E.Ryu.

This was SFIV he was talking about.
 
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ProtagonistHero said:
Assuming that the moves are the same as Fighting Is Magic, I should be able to help a bit. Arizona's j. B should be the drop kick, and the downward kick should be j. C. Pretty sure either the headbutt or the horn swipe is a special move, not sure which one though.

Velvet's big ice swipe should be s. C and the lunging kick is c. C. The ice sculpture attack is her Launcher, which is a separate command (Forward + C while crouching or "3C"). You could just label that "Launcher". Add Arizona's Launcher (should be a jumping headbutt thing) and that should be all the normals showcased in the demo.

Thanks a lot! I played the leaked version of Fighting is Magic but not for long so I didn't even remember launchers were separate normals. And nice catch on Arizona's launcher. I forgot to check the raw gameplay video for normals not present in the dynamic music system one.

Updated more accurate version.
 
Spencer said:
Most characters simply don't have the tools to deal with all of the characters.
Can you please, PLEASE, list the fighting games where this is any different?
Even Skullgirls would be a meh example due to being hardly developed and assists being a large questionmark
KoF XIII was seen as a posterchild for balance for a long time; now everyone plays the same 5 characters?!

The Bottom 10-20% of characters in USF4 are probably not strong enough to win a major tournament..
In most fighters (avg ~15char cast), that would be 1-3 characters.
How many FGs do you know where out of a 15 char cast, you can't name 1-3 which are notably weaker than the rest?

You're looking at a sea of fighting games starting with MvC2, going over 3S and ending at Smash/Melee, and out of all of those.. you pick the one game with 8 different chars in the Top8 of the strongest tournament in the world, and call it awfully balanced.
I don't REALLY have to understand this?

The Sanford video is from 2009. That was Vanilla SF4. That is uh, 5 balance versions ago??
Have you seen Vanilla Skullgirls and how much that has to do with the game today?

P.S. Matchupwise SF4 is actually way better than I am currently selling it (which is overall-wise, since I believed that to be your complaint); there are very very few "unwinnable" matchups (Hawk v Blanka, Dict v Guile, blub) when compared to the rostersize, with most being rather evenish

E: I agree that the game would be a better/more_fun one if you straight removed half the cast and gave the remaining 22 characters some more options so they're more interesting/diverse to play (particularly if you removed garbage like Fuerte while you're at it), but complaining about the balance of the game I most definitely can't understand (and I stopped playing it long prior to Ultra release; AE v2012 was already by no means badly balanced)

E2: "There is a reason everyone seems to have a pocket E.Ryu"; probably the same reason as to why everyone has a pocket Cerebella?
 
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Off topic so sorry:

People play the 'same 5 characters' in KOF13 because the top players believe the small advantages are more important than what other characters offer ie picking Karate over Takuma because 236A is gdlk even though Takuma does brutal amounts of damage etc, and even so other characters are still visible in high level play, such as Duo Lon (Reynald and MadKOF), Daimon (MadKOF), Benimaru, to an extent King and Yuri too. It isn't like Marvel 2 where the top tier shit on everyone else for free and don't wipe afterwards.

Almost nothing in the current generation of fighting games can really match up to some of the stupid matchups in SF4 ie Abel vs Rufus, Dhalsim vs pretty much anyone. SF4 does not give enough universal options for characters to effectively deal with other characters' tools (divekicks are a great example of this) and in almost every other fighting game (at least any other fighting game I have personally played) that is the case.

Character viability of lack of thereof is the least of my concerns; what I want in games is playstyle variety backed by solid, well thought out character designs, which SF4 lacks.

Also I'd argue Hoodaman currently is a better example of a Honda doing well than Mike Ross.
 
Yomabuddy said:
People play the 'same 5 characters' in KOF13 because the top players believe the small advantages are more important than what other characters offer i...Character viability of lack of thereof is the least of my concerns; what I want in games is playstyle variety backed by solid, well thought out character designs, which SF4 lacks.

This actually goes back to my feelings on MVC3.

It's a lot better balanced game than mvc2, technically. But you do tend to see the "same 5 characters" in Mvc3 as well. It's just that it's for completely different reasons.

In Mvc2, some of the lower tier characters were legitimately interesting and unique even if they sucked, because they were ported over from good games with good fundamentals. In Mvc3, a lot of the movesets just feel "thrown together" (like they sat around a meeting table and dolled out dive kicks and beams at random), and a lot of characters feel really same-y. As a result, there's not much reason to play many of the lower tier characters (not even just "lol fun"), even if they're viable, because there's usually a better version of each of those characters who doesn't feel much different.

There are other things I don't like about MVC3's move set design besides the same-y-ness, I also think a lot of characters (some exceptions, of course) feel really one-dimensional in terms of gameplan and options (spacing game is boring imo), but that's another story.


aaaaaaaand it suddenly occurred to me how off topic this is, lol.
 
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Super Milk Chan said:
I guess the writer and designers original vision is stupid, eh?
Yeah, sometimes. Mahvel was only accidentally great, and SG took a long time to get to where it is.
 
The Keep Skullgirls Growing IGG characters came out as advertised, give or take an experimental gimmick. Knew exactly what to expect. These Them's Fightin' Herds descriptions aren't giving me enough information.

I'm trying to concisely picture the cast with other fighting game terms like an elevator pitch. Let me know if I got the right impression:

Arizona = uh, Beowulf without The Hurting?
Velvet = splash characters like Eliza, Eddie (Guilty Gear), Glacius (Killer Instinct), Venom (Marvel vs Capcom)
Paprika = odd, super-strong, random grappler...? No one comes to mind
Oleander = Dr. Strange (traps) + Dormammu (spells) + Phoenix Wright (power-up)
Pom = permanent Double's blockbuster Catellite Lives?
Tianhuo = a flyer so a mix of Storm, Painwheel, Firebrand, etc.?
Goat = a stretch goal lacking details
 
Not to restart this debate, but Boxer are you calling Eliza's entire high risk, high reward gameplay style in her description just an experimental gimmick? I would say it defined her character at that time. The whole two characters in one mode was the expendable ancillary part and that is what actually stuck.

But as Ninja said, there is already a game with these characters in another form except for the wall climbing goat. If you can think of a fighting game that let's you do more than stick to walls, but actually go up them that is your point of reference.
 
Looks like funding has stagnated pretty solidly. It's nice they got that early leap, but it's going to be tooth and nails from here on out I think.
 
I'm sure they'll get a great boost near the deadline like all crowdfunding campaign. Under the pressure of the final deadline the fence-sitting procrastinators will chip-in.
Okie Dokie said:
Not to restart this debate, but Boxer are you calling Eliza's entire high risk, high reward gameplay style in her description just an experimental gimmick? I would say it defined her character at that time. The whole two characters in one mode was the expendable ancillary part and that is what actually stuck.
Nah, I meant Eliza's blood gimmick. The idea that more she bled on the battlefield, the more special attacks she could get. Interesting, but understandably resource prohibitive.

Ninja said:
just play Fighting is magic you'll get the idea behind each character...
I'd rather discuss opinions than trying somehow to track down and play an obscure, legally unavailable, smashed into the treads of forty Hasbro lawyers' shoes, video game.

Okie Dokie said:
But as Ninja said, there is already a game with these characters in another form except for the wall climbing goat. If you can think of a fighting game that let's you do more than stick to walls, but actually go up them that is your point of reference.
Oh, so all 6 characters are "done", gameplay wise? Here I thought only Arizona and Velvet were leftovers. So if I search YouTube videos, who is who?

I missed the MLP boat so I don't know a yellow pony from a blue one, but from this thread it looks like:
Applejack = Arizona
Rarity = Velvet

Are Muro's predictions from page 3 accurate? They are:
Twilight = Oleander
Fluttershy = Pom
Pinkie Pie = Paprika
??? = Tianhuo
 
Tianhou is Rainbow Dash, who had a stand up on two hooves fighting style. I'm sure they will add more aerial moves with her flapping wings however.
 
Apple jack (orange) = Arizona
Rarity (white) = Velvet
Twilight (purple) = Oleander
Fluttershy (yellow) = Pom
Pinkie Pie (surprise: pink) = Paprika
Rainbow dash (blue) = Tianhuo
Keep in mind there are different palettes, but their move sets should be a giveaway anyway.
 
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BallotBoxer said:
I missed the MLP boat so I don't know a yellow pony from a blue one, but from this thread it looks like:
Applejack = Arizona
Rarity = Velvet

Are Muro's predictions from page 3 accurate? They are:
Twilight = Oleander
Fluttershy = Pom
Pinkie Pie = Paprika
??? = Tianhuo

Just to add to this: Arizona and Velvet are pretty much exactly how Applejack and Rarity were.

Oleander seems like a more interesting Twilight Sparle. Twilight could read the book to get Magic stocks to launch EX Fireballs and traps. Oleander seems to have some sort of mechanic similar to Phoenix Wright or what Annie would have, so she'll probably get better normals and specials as she reads the book.

Paprika and Pinkie Pie should also be pretty similar because Pinkie was fairly complete by the time the game was abandoned.

Fluttershy and Rainbow Dash will probably be very different from Pom and Tianhuo. Both barely had anything ready when the game was abandoned and everything was added by fans. Fluttershy had a makeshift assist-like mechanic and Rainbow dash was kind of a divekick character(?) (I didn't really play Tribute Edition or watch enough videos of her).
 
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Ryin said:
Oleander seems to have some sort of mechanic similar to Phoenix Wright or what Annie would have
Minette*
 
Muro said:
Minette*

I completely forgot Minette had that with tips, thanks.

But now I'm incredibly confused. I'm sure I had read that Annie would also have some sort of evolution (though hers would be meter based, so not really as appropriate for a comparison as Minette) in which she'd look like what she'd be in a season finale or something like that. I specifically remember reading and discussing this. The fact she has Phoenix among her gameplay inspirations also corroborates to this fact, but I can't find the part talking about her transformation.
 
Ryin said:
I completely forgot Minette had that with tips, thanks.

But now I'm incredibly confused. I'm sure I had read that Annie would also have some sort of evolution (though hers would be meter based, so not really as appropriate for a comparison as Minette) in which she'd look like what she'd be in a season finale or something like that. I specifically remember reading and discussing this. The fact she has Phoenix among her gameplay inspirations also corroborates to this fact, but I can't find the part talking about her transformation.

I was under the impression "Season 2 Upgrade" was a super akin to, say, Hatred Install (better moves and mobility for a limited duration), whereas Annie's main gimmick would've been a "perfect hit" mechanic by hitting the enemy with a specific part of her sword.
 
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