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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Grangach said:
I don't really care if it was in marvel 2, I don't like any of the marvel games. I realize skullgirls is a homage but does it really need all to copy the bad parts too?

My thoughts exactly. I know i'm gonna get some flak for this but when i first played Marvel 2 on PSX2 i was like "This buggy cash-in inspired Skullgirls?!?" I'm sorry but 10 viable characters out of a cast of 50 doesn't really strike me as the holy grail of fighting game innovation. I'm just really curious as to why people think it's amazing.
 
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The game really only becomes a buggy unbalanced mess at high level play. You COULD ignore 80% of the cast if you just wanna go for "professional" exploits, but exploits are not the entirety of the game.
 
I just don't care for it, don't like the superjumps and don't like feel of the combos and really not a fan of any game with infinites, and there seems to be a high level of "this is really dumb why is this like this" in it. I don't really like hating on games I haven't played enough of to judge properly, but I can't say I'm a fan. Mad props to anyone that likes it, it's just not for me. I feel the same way about marvel 3.

Skullgirls is grounded in a way that really appeals to me, and it focuses very heavily on resets which pretty much no other game I can think of does. I think the game stands on it's own and hasn't nor shouldn't try to emulate other games, especially moving forward with the IP if we ever get SG2. The business with the superjumps makes me think mike wants to move away from the resets that make skullgirls so great and unique.... I play skullgirls to play skullgirls, not to play a marvel clone.

This is off topic though, we should probably move back to matchups. Don't want to derail the convo, just wanna explain myself.

................................

I think val is incredibly underated, her mobility is insane. She whiff punishes really well. I think Filia has a hard time against her because of her short range normals that val can weave in and out of. I think bella does pretty well against val because of her range and options but again, a lot of her moves are pretty punishable.
 
who underrates Val? I thought people finally agreed she is kinda really good.
 
As a Val mainer, I see an equal amount of people who really like her and really dislike her to this day.
 
After playing USF4 for over a hundred hours and returning to Skullgirls I'd like to say:

Painwheel is the highest tier of all time! :PUN:

You don't even have to do combos (people need to learn how to grab tech)

I digress. I found Painwheel to basically be the best because almost all of her moves
are like focus attacks.
This is insane because you can just ignore blocking single-hit (and even 2 hit) moves and get free damage.
It's like parrying without actually having to try.
She also has great tech and mobility and sick projectiles.
Also she has vortex tech? Whaaaat. She's a machine.
She just doesn't even care about your offense.

It's like mixing a shoto with Ibuki and giving her armored moves.
Needs nerf.
 
StripeyBoosh said:
After playing USF4 for over a hundred hours and returning to Skullgirls I'd like to say:

Painwheel is the highest tier of all time! :PUN:

You don't even have to do combos (people need to learn how to grab tech)

I digress. I found Painwheel to basically be the best because almost all of her moves
are like focus attacks.
This is insane because you can just ignore blocking single-hit (and even 2 hit) moves and get free damage.
It's like parrying without actually having to try.
She also has great tech and mobility and sick projectiles.
Also she has vortex tech? Whaaaat. She's a machine.
She just doesn't even care about your offense.

It's like mixing a shoto with Ibuki and giving her armored moves.
Needs nerf.
Nah Painwheel is fine. Something you may not realize from playing her is none of her armor starts up on the first frame, so you can't reversal with it (although if your opponent mistimes their meaty or generally just does a really bad mixup you can sometimes beat it with armor jab).
 
Grangach said:
I just don't care for it, don't like the superjumps and don't like feel of the combos and really not a fan of any game with infinites

Well, I have good news, because Marvel 2 doesn't have any!

Grangach said:
Skullgirls is grounded in a way that really appeals to me, and it focuses very heavily on resets which pretty much no other game I can think of does.

Something tells me you didn't look very much into Marvel 2.
 
tbh from all the times I've seen Marvel 2 it doesn't seem that reset heavy. It seems like it's a lot more about short combo into DHC into Sentinel into death, or do 3 AHVBs, or do the Sentinel only Storm combo, or other things of that nature. Sometimes Magneto does a crossup low reset and I'm like "oh that was really fast" but even Magnetos don't seem to go for resets very often.
 
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Magneto is the only one in later MvC2 play that I remember going for lots of resets. Well, I guess combofiend's team too, but that was a corner case. Most gameplay was ABC combo into oki, kinda GG style.
 
only posting this cause I'm getting called out:
all the high level matches I've watched are not reset heavy at all, the combos are too short for them and there aren't restands from what I can tell...

seriously though someone make a new thread if people want to talk about this.

................

Does bella have any bad matchups? Everything feels pretty close to even.
 
I'm convinced you just linked the video without watching it at all. I'm impressed.

But yeah i'm fine with dropping it good lord ;_;

Eliza probably beats Bella, Fukua???, I played her for a bit idk i'm sure she has some xD
 
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Back when I played Squigly I liked Squigly v Bella. A lot of patches have come out since then though. Main thing I liked was that Daisy Pusher blew up all of Bellas block strings. It would win if she tried runstop pressure or LnL or command grab or 360 or any of the follow ups to Tumble Run (except maybe Kancho? idk)
 
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IMO, Squigly is advantaged vs Bella. chord or center stage + super blows up too many of Bella's approach options
 
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mcpeanuts said:
Back when I played Squigly I liked Squigly v Bella. A lot of patches have come out since then though. Main thing I liked was that Daisy Pusher blew up all of Bellas block strings. It would win if she tried runstop pressure or LnL or command grab or 360 or any of the follow ups to Tumble Run (except maybe Kancho? idk)

FYI - Sometimes Pummel Horse beats Daisy Pusher because of the throw invul frames but its not consistent. Nothing else really works, especially now that she can't cancel her normals into tag-out to avoid it.
 
keninblack said:
I'm convinced you just linked the video without watching it at all. I'm impressed.

I watched it and I don't know what I'm missing. There's also the iron man infinite? Regardless of whether infinites are prevalent, that's not even my main problem with the game, it's the verticality and lack of resets compared to skullgirls. I'm sure there's all sorts of intricacies I'm missing out on feel free to PM me if you want to tell me about them. It seems to have a lot of neutral game which is cool.

..............................

Squiggly definitely blows up bella. I think filia does pretty well against squiggs though cause her fast normals can tag squiggly's jHP pretty free, and Filia's HP blows up a lot of squigg's approach options. I don't have trouble getting in on squiggs with filia the same way I do against getting in on other characters.
 
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The thing I like the most about this game is that even though mano e mono there are some bad matchups, with the right assist you can negate those problems. Bella with a brass knuck assist is pretty good for approaching. Makes it hard to make a tier or matchup list though.
 
I think mano e mano he suffers but overall he's very strong.
 
I think he's better than a lot of people give him credit for but he still has some bad matchups.
 
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Grangach said:
Infinites and Bella

Marvel 2 infinites are in the same way Skullgirls has infinites, they are there but the opponent will spin out when you reach a certain combo threshold. That's when you see them spin up in the air out of the combo. Other games don't have this safeguard (marvel 3, even with its other infinite prevention safeguards).

Skullgirls has "infintes" but has this IPS which lets the opponent break out of the combo when it detects one.

On Bella, I feel Painwheel, Eliza, and Val(though I haven't played a lot against Val recently) Poop over Bella in neutral. And once they get on Bella its hard to get them off. Though you have dynamo and good resets so it doesn't feel as bad that bad.

I think Eliza V Squigly is even. I never feel too worried in this match up. I was wondering why dekillsage hated the Eliza match up but then i felt why when I picked up Bella.

Squigly V Bigband used to feel bad but Squigly just has to be a bit more passive and not as committal to buttons and wait for big band to overextend, then you get a big punish and bait their reversal and kill him.
 
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I started an MvC2 thread if anyone really wants to continue arguing about weather the game has true infinites or teams based largely on the the ones that Ironman and Warmachine have don’t exist.
 
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akindhobo said:
On Bella, I feel Painwheel, Eliza, and Val(though I haven't played a lot against Val recently) Poop over Bella in neutral. And once they get on Bella its hard to get them off. Though you have dynamo and good resets so it doesn't feel as bad that bad.


I always feel as if bella is one of my hardest matchups as painwheel. Bella tends to have a huge priority advantage of painwheel.

Painwheel can take the initiative by getting space on bella, but still has to approach bella at the end of the day.

I would have thought it was just me, but all the sg video I've ever seen (there isn't a whole lot of it) shows painwheels losing to bellas of the same approximate skill level.

At neutral the problem is that Bella can kinda just do what she wants, Painwheel doesn't generally have the hitboxes to stand toe to toe with bellas airnormals, and Painwheel also can't double jump for priority, or at the very least, to deny Bella height priority.

So it can become about making Bella wiff, but pws moves are either very slow or very short ranged so wiff pressuring Bella isn't easy. And Bella has great answers for basically all of painwheels offense, including Dynamo, battle butt, excelebella, jmp and jhp.
 
Bella has a grand total of zero multihit airnormals
Against a character that is pooping armor nonstop

Those things you listed all lose clean to a spaced PW jMP?
E: And kinda make no sense anyway; Dynamo really?.?
 
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I don't have that much trouble with painwheel as bella I just do her anti air grab and it stuffs painwheels options. you cant challenge her air to air.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Bella has a grand total of zero multihit airnormals
Against a character that is pooping armor nonstop

Those things you listed all lose clean to a spaced PW jMP?
E: And kinda make no sense anyway; Dynamo really?.?


Idk why you even bother if everything you say comes from some weird point of everything else everyone says being stupid.

Bella has 2 hit air chains to beat armor. J.lp mash to beat air armor. A hugely long range sweep to beat ground armor. Excelebella to beat air armor.

And pw j.mp can actually be reactively diamond dynamoed if the Bella is on the ground. If the Bella is in the air then pw j.mp will lose most of the time unless Painwheel is jumping backwards.


Getting spacing is also rather hard to do.

Reversals like buer thresher from armored j.hp while still a decent look are still guesses and easily baited by Bella jumping forward with an empty jump.

Bella has the advantage in the matchup based around initial priority air to air, a double jump, a good dash jump normal (jmp), a good neutral jump beat everything normal (jhp)

After all that. The matchup is much better for Painwheel once she gains range because once pw gains range Bella doesn't have great answers for jmp that don't include calling her dp assist or diamond Dynamo or battlebutt/excelebella
 
I can't really see post flight speed buff Painwheel vs Bella being anything but Painwheel favoured.

It makes such a difference, spacing j.MPs where they are needed and getting into good places to bait, armour and thresher is so easy now.
 
Grangach said:
I don't have that much trouble with painwheel as bella I just do her anti air grab and it stuffs painwheels options. you cant challenge her air to air.

that might work well on val, eliza or some other airborn character but painwheel can easily bait that grab (and pretty much any of bellas aa moves) making it a rather unsafe move in that matchup.
 
...none of you actually use Painwheel though do you?

And even if you do.. Do you have a good Bella main to play against?

If not, you are talking theory fighter at best.

I have around 4 bellas that I have played against. I can beat all of them convincingly except for 1.

The 1 is the one that I base the matchup on. I dont base the matchup around players that I can beat with damn near any character, no matter the matchup.
 
MEXICO JUICE said:
that might work well on val, eliza or some other airborn character but painwheel can easily bait that grab (and pretty much any of bellas aa moves) making it a rather unsafe move in that matchup.

Maybe I only play against bad painwheels.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
K dime x

Is it better to reset early or get your damage and reset with full undizzy?


"Something" tells me I'm being trolled here. But I'll give my best non answer:

It depends on the situation at the time. Barring me not knowing some important facet of the game mechanically speaking there are positives for doing both. Resetting early gives the opponent less meter. So on paper that is always the best option. But, since resetting early is never guaranteed. Just getting your damage is a great option. Then there are a myriad of other things to be aware of such as will this combo kill in no resets/does meter even matter right now/what's my team composition versus their team composition.


I'd say the more important thing to do is take advantage of the systems that the game gives you to reduce undizzy:

Techable knockdowns
Counterhits
Burst baits


Life you have a REALLY good burst bait for example, then it might always be wise to go for a full undizzy combo into burstbait/airthrow 50/50 since the burst bait gives you full counter hit combo mde undizzy goodness and you can probably kill from that alone along with the first combo.

Likewise if you have a good techable knockdown setup in the corner, you can end in sweep and then cover the forward tech whereas no tech or back tech keeps them cornered.

This is of course much better against a cornered opponent.



What I personally do is simple:

Scaled starter gets early reset mixup
Non scaled cr.lk starter or some such goes to full undizzy into whatever I'm feeling like doing.


I've seen in my games that taking scaled combos to full undizzy isn't worth it for me, in general unless they will kill for 3 meters or less. Depending on how much I want to get rid of the character.
 
Grangach said:
Does bella have any bad matchups? Everything feels pretty close to even.

Peacock played the right way will give Bella very few options.

Parasoul, Valentine, Eliza and Painwheel can give Bella trouble in neutral, so they may have the advantage in that matchup but it's not 'bad' I don't think.

Everyone else is pretty even or Bella does well in my opinion.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Well i ask this in regards to finding the best way to eliminate a duo team as quickly as possible
Maaaan, I wish I knew since I'm kinda staunch on liking the trios more than duos.

But I'd say the best in an all around fashion would be to up those burst bait setups into legitimate burst baits instead of just as anti ash burst baits.


Gettin g an actual, burst bait to hit in this game is so incredibly huge. You generally get a counter hit heavy starter into a long ass combo.

Right now the team I'm trying to max out because I feel like on paper this team is kinda BS. Is pw/wulf/fukua


I got the idea from watching sages stream and listening to him comment on the beo/fukua shell. Mainly that gigantic arm into bff is an incredible dhc on hit. There are lots of other things that make the shell good on paper... (Like getting to watch sage abuse it against people) but that dhc sold me.

After those reasons, pw can control huge amounts of screen with chair toss assist and stingers, as well as she has access to a lockdown assist for resets, which when combined with painwheels easy mode safejump setups, is really good.


So the neutral/space control part of the team is Painwheel with assists, and the damage part of the team is Beowulf to fukua dhc.

so yeah. Big damage is the best way to take on duo IMHO. That or oppressive neutral.

I don't think an all aorund trio team will be maximized enough at this point in time.... But I may be wrong.
 
Considering the flight speed buff and Excellebella only being unblockable when the opponent jumps up, I'd say the matchup is even where it used to be in Bella's favor.
 
I bait excelebella in the matchup into my pw unfly.

From the range that this generally happens at (near max range excelebella at near peak fly height), it's almost impossible if not impossible to actually punish.

Excelebella on air blocking opponent varies from -14 at a realistic spacing, to -21 at a completely unrealistic spacing.

When blocking excelebella the blocking character gets pushed back as well.

In real world terms this means that outside empty jumping with assist, Painwheel doesn't actually get a "punish" against blocked excelebella.

She does however get an opportunity for a mixup, where bellas options are jump, block,
or reversal into safe on block reversal cats... But I guess cats is outside the scope of this.


Basically play the matchup or try it in training mode and see if you can consistently punish blocked excelebella with pw.

I think you will find that if you use real world spacings and timings that you don't actually get anything.


But perhaps a mixup opportunity is a good enough punish... Idk. Could be.
 
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