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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

Jason said:
FYI - Sometimes Pummel Horse beats Daisy Pusher because of the throw invul frames but its not consistent. Nothing else really works, especially now that she can't cancel her normals into tag-out to avoid it.

Just in case anyone doesn't know about it, cancelling a normal during daisy flash into horns xx dynamo or horns xx 360 lets you stretch the invincibility out enough to beat the daisy. Not as good as tag was but eh
 
Dreamepitaph said:
Hmm i'm ok with most things.

How does big band stand to most people nowadays?
I still think Big Band is very good but I have recanted my stance that he has no bad matchups. I now think Painwheel is a bad matchup. Big Band doesn't have great answers to Painwheel j.MP. I haven't played against Robo Fortune much yet but on paper I think that's bad too.
 
mcpeanuts said:
I still think Big Band is very good but I have recanted my stance that he has no bad matchups. I now think Painwheel is a bad matchup. Big Band doesn't have great answers to Painwheel j.MP. I haven't played against Robo Fortune much yet but on paper I think that's bad too.

I didn't know you had a stance that BB had no bad matchups, I disagree heavily. Aside from robo (which I honestly think is the hardest matchup in the game, 7-3 AT LEAST for robo EASILY until i find the secret anti-robo tech):

-fukua is still a struggle imo because of sweep shadow on top of obviously other zoning tools
-like you said vs painwheel sucks because her air normals beat your armor so you basically can't use a-train
-Squigly seems like she would be annoying but I don't have any real MU exp
-I would almost say Val since BB has trouble with people who can get super high above him but again the only times I've played BB against a val of any worth the reason I lost wasn't a bad matchup lol
 
Pickles said:
I didn't know you had a stance that BB had no bad matchups, I disagree heavily. Aside from robo (which I honestly think is the hardest matchup in the game, 7-3 AT LEAST for robo EASILY until i find the secret anti-robo tech):

-fukua is still a struggle imo because of sweep shadow on top of obviously other zoning tools
-like you said vs painwheel sucks because her air normals beat your armor so you basically can't use a-train
-Squigly seems like she would be annoying but I don't have any real MU exp
-I would almost say Val since BB has trouble with people who can get super high above him but again the only times I've played BB against a val of any worth the reason I lost wasn't a bad matchup lol
I think Fukua is even. She beats Big Band from full screen but once you get in it's fine, and her zoning isn't so good that it should keep you out forever. L Clone is whatever just don't do armor moves if you're worried about it, it's not hard to jump over it. She also can't reversal you after a hard knockdown which is gr8 one less thing I need to think about lol.

I think Squigly is Big Band's favor, she has trouble punishing certain things so you can go nuts to an extent. I haven't played Val that much but it doesn't feel that bad, just don't let her get above you (easier said than done I realize haha but you can do stuff like wait for her to double jump then jump back double jump forward or whatever)
 
BB vs Fortune really really sucks for BB, probably his hardest one IMO. Para vs BB is still bad for BB as well.

Pickles said:
Aside from robo (which I honestly think is the hardest matchup in the game, 7-3 AT LEAST for robo EASILY until i find the secret anti-robo tech):

(all of this is asssuming we are putting numbers to Robo MUs, which not a lot of people will agree with since she's still super early and not released yet)

Robo and BB is bad for BB for sure, but it's not 7-3 and certainly not the hardest MU in the game. Robo can jump back laser all day but unless you're bad at blocking BB is gonna be chicken blocking everything and only getting chipped, where as all BB needs is 1 opening for Rush punch or A train which will do big damage to her on top of completely putting on her on defense, which is her big weakness. Once she's being pressured, she has a hard time dealing with BB corner pressure where her best option is to dash under which you can control as BB using assists. It's 6-4 and not in his favor for sure since he does have to work hard to get the space for brass/atrain and corner, but it's going to be an eventuality when BB gets in close and Robo doesn't pressure BB upclose like a lot of his other MUs do. The only way the MU would be that difficult would be if Robo was using something like Cilia Slide or L Shadow assist (Butchers blade kind of, but it's pretty slow and can be hit out of in this scenario) to cover BB ground options, outside of that I don't see how the MU is any worse than BB vs Para.
 
Fukua vs big band......

I can understand mcpeanuts in that regard.

I think fukua still dictates where he will go and how will react due to the mere prescense of l shadow. Getting air grabbed into a oki setup where i can limit your options is not good for band. Aside from fireball buff and allowing conversions from a distance i'm not so sure its even. Of course with assist but other than that? The neutral game is left to be desired for band
 
I agree that PW vs BB is in PW's favor for all the reasons people have said, just wanted to add that PW also has charge sweep which is good, and if she is charging armor and BB does something like Rush Punch xx SSJ, PW's armor cancel into DC will beat the SSJ. Also, BB can have a tough time dealing with fly cancel xx j.HK mixups since he's so tall.

As for the PW Bella matchup, I think it's mostly even. The only thing that really sucks for PW is when Bella gets in, she can really bully PW with her cr.lk pressure.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Big Band doesn't have great answers to Painwheel j.MP.
I think parry is a great answer to j.mp, you can do it pretty easily on reaction.
 
CaioLugon said:
I think parry is a great answer to j.mp, you can do it pretty easily on reaction.
No I can't lol I've tried
 
CaioLugon said:
lol git gud
Well help me out here. Cause it feels like to parry a specific move at neutral you need to be looking for it. In my experience when people see Big Band standing there doing nothing they can read that he's looking for something to parry and react by doing something unparryable, like empty jump throw, or Painwheel can even fly over and Buer Reaper you since it's unparryable.
 
j.MP is not really reactable. It starts up too quick. You can parry on expectation to one coming out, but that's it.

However, there's no reason you can't buffer parry then do another option, then keep parrying if j.MP comes out.

This is third strike baloney.

Also, I can't put a dent in Flotilla, but I'm a fraud, and my team is only 1/3rd PW.

I think Cymbol Clash in the air owns PW approach. It's very hard to juke, and PW lacks a good midrange punish... but maybe that's online play talking.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Well help me out here. Cause it feels like to parry a specific move at neutral you need to be looking for it. In my experience when people see Big Band standing there doing nothing they can read that he's looking for something to parry and react by doing something unparryable, like empty jump throw, or Painwheel can even fly over and Buer Reaper you since it's unparryable.
Well it's a 22f move and I think you should actually be looking for it to react and parry, and stuff like j.mp > fly > j.mp and H nails > fly > j.mp can be parried most of the time pretty easily as well imo. If you can make her understand that if she's not respecting that option she's gonna get punished you're already making it a lot easier to deal with.
 
CaioLugon said:
Well it's a 22f move and I think you should actually be looking for it to react and parry, and stuff like j.mp > fly > j.mp and H nails > fly > j.mp can be parried most of the time pretty easily as well imo. If you can make her understand that if she's not respecting that option she's gonna get punished you're already making it a lot easier to deal with.
That's what I'm saying though, if I'm looking for it, the Painwheel player isn't gonna do it. They're only gonna do it when I'm not looking for it.
 
You can still do stuff expecting a j.mp and be able to react, and it won't really beat your options if you're up close, even L cymbals is faster than j.mp
 
I don't think people are giving Robo Fortune's movement and mobility enough credit in the BB matchup.

Robo Fortune can run under BB if she expects him to double jump j.LK to try and get over RF and if RF was backed in the corner she gets the other side to play with.
Good use of rising j.HK and air to air j.LK makes BB j.LK very difficult to use. Super jump dropkick, however, can work against j.HK at the right spacings but people aren't that great at using it yet.
If you were able to get a mine down through getting hits/air throws, it basically gets rid of BB being able to approach on the ground for a full 9 seconds, and with the right spacings, this means free head calls and possibly even more time to lay mines down.

Do note that in the common situations that this matchup would happen, anchor BB vs RF team, with the right assists this matchup is extremely free since c.MK + assist is basically L Clone (well yeah it isn't exactly but it is somewhat similar in its usage) but with slightly more commitment and depending on the assist, possibly more reward. Also you'll at least have one head to deploy, so with the right assist you get to deploy mines for free at neutral.

I also think that the Bella matchup should be played in a similar fashion, which means I do think RF beats Bella, but Bella has better abare conversion ability since super jump j.MP is pretty decent at slapping through j.HK at spacings where BB has trouble and nets more consistent and possibly higher damage if it does hit with j.MP j.HK, but if Bella is reliant upon such reads then again you can run under and play the mouse again.

All these matchups look to me like they have very fine lines though, since if RF gets hit it's more often than not lol rip RF, unless you make use of alpha counters and raw tags.
 
One thing I realized today is that RF is the only character in the game who can do an armored reversal and call assist at the same time. Other characters you have to be at neutral for at least 1 frame to call assist after your reversal but since RF's s.HP is a normal she's fully able to do wakeup s.HP and call assist on the same frame.

Also people should be doing s.HP as an anti-air as well in some matchups.
 
Pre-armor frames for Painwheel, so she still loses to meaty attacks

s.LP 3
s.MP 5
s.MK 7
s.HP 7
c.LP 3
c.MP 7
c.HP 9
c.HK 4
j.HP 2

does anybody know how many frames until armor kicks in for Robo-Fortunes st.hp ?
 
dMags said:
Pre-armor frames for Painwheel, so she still loses to meaty attacks

s.LP 3
s.MP 5
s.MK 7
s.HP 7
c.LP 3
c.MP 7
c.HP 9
c.HK 4
j.HP 2

does anybody know how many frames until armor kicks in for Robo-Fortunes st.hp ?

It has armor immediately on frame 1. Which is why you can use it as a real reversal and Painwheel can't use Hatred Guard as a reversal.
 
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Jason said:
One thing I realized today is that RF is the only character in the game who can do an armored reversal and call assist at the same time. Other characters you have to be at neutral for at least 1 frame to call assist after your reversal but since RF's s.HP is a normal she's fully able to do wakeup s.HP and call assist on the same frame.

Also people should be doing s.HP as an anti-air as well in some matchups.
You can do this with special moves via assist input.
Down, up + MP HK is Pillar + assist.

Do you have to wait one frame to do this? I think you can do it on the first wake up frame
 
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Skarmand said:
Do you have to wait one frame to do this?
Sure feels that way

PERHAPS it is possible to do this if you are frame perfect (rather than just inputting you reversal during the buffer, time it to precisely happen on your wakeup frame)
But yes in general, you go straight from hit/blockstun (can't call assist) into a special (can't call assist) and thus it won't happen
Easy to test with like, you cornered, Dummy Peacock throws you and does meaty cHK on your wakeup
 
Specials have a 4F reversal buffer but assist calls do not.
That's why your assist doesn't come out sometimes but special does.
It's still possible though and would apply to RF's sHP aswell.

Edit: Oh I get it now nevermind. Yeah I guess hers might be special then.
I am curious about the meaty set up though.
 
I'm almost sure that Mike has said before that the "do a special with an assist call button combo" thing works by calling the assist on frame 1 then doing the special on frame 2.

From looking at inputs one thing I know doesn't work is trying to do a plink type input to do the special first. That's the cause of most failed "special + assist" inputs and why they feel a little finicky - you have to hit the assist buttons on the same frame when most stuff in SG is 1 or 2 frames lenient. But in Robo's case that will work because the normal is still assist-OK.
 
Is it bad that I had to look at it for a good two minutes before I realized what you meant?
 
SG%20tiers_zpsjmilsqbs.png


I made a rough and opinionated tier list based on my experiences. It of course goes off the assumption that Skullgirls is very balanced and the bottom tier is fully viable against the top tier.

On a scale from 1-10, how wrong am I?
 
I personally think painwheel should be higher, filia should be lower, Big band should moved more to the right, valentine should be higher and bella should be higher. I have no idea about fortune or beowulf. Remember tier lists are strictly opinion, especially for sg. So I wouldn't want to say your tier list is wrong. Just that I don't completely agree with it.
 
Could you explain your findings? I mean whatever it's a picture.

That said I don't agree with it in the slightest. Tiers in this game is like a strange haze where it's hard to make out anything.
 
Adeveis said:
Remember tier lists are strictly opinion.
Huh?
It is not an 'opinion' that Fox is better than Bowser in Melee.
It's not an opinion that Magneto is good in Marvel 2.

Tier lists are made from data and results.
(Which is why it's still pretty early for Tier lists in Skullgirls.)
 
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Skarmand said:
Huh?
It is not an 'opinion' that Fox is better than Bowser in Melee.
It's not an opinion that Magneto is good in Marvel 2.

Tier lists are made from data and results.
(Which is why it's still pretty early for Tier lists in Skullgirls.)
Yeah you are right. I don't know why I said strictly. I'll still stand by them being somewhat based on opinion in certain instances like how strong dudley is in 3s as most people have him on different spots in their tier lists.
 
obregon said:
I'm almost sure that Mike has said before that the "do a special with an assist call button combo" thing works by calling the assist on frame 1 then doing the special on frame 2.
@Skarmand too, just in case...

Doing special + assist on the same frame requires you to be in a state where assist calls are allowed. The assist gets the "do an assist" input and the point gets the "do a special" input on the same frame, and the point is allowed to call assists. Assist calls have a 5f buffer (yep) and specials/supers have a 3f buffer as reversals, so assist+special as a reversal WOULD be possible, except that on a true reveresal you do not go through a frame where assist calls are allowed - you are in wakeup, then you are in a special move.

As such, to get special+assist call you must be in not-wakeup AND not-the-special-move for at least 1 frame, so it cannot be a true reversal. Since RF's s.HP is a normal, she can reversal with s.HP + assist.
 
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If people rate filia that high then i do suggest playing her point for a bit against the rest of the cast. Now why is squigs low tier? Someone that plays the character provide a detailed spoiler on the toolset and why she lacks.
 
Skarmand said:
Huh?
It is not an 'opinion' that Fox is better than Bowser in Melee.
It's not an opinion that Magneto is good in Marvel 2.

Tier lists are made from data and results.
(Which is why it's still pretty early for Tier lists in Skullgirls.)


Tier lists are still largely opinion based. Its an opinion that sent is stronger than storm or that storm is stronger than sent in mvc2 as an example. Opinion tends to be strongest in gsmes that are relatively balanced. The newest gg as an example has a wildly fluctuating tier list depending on what top japanese player you ask. Of course, it isnt thst servbot and roll suck in mvc2. But that doesnt mean that there are no leaps of faith or opinionated conjrctures in the game.


In the oldschool games were less balanced because of no patches but in newer games with dlc patching and the like, tiers tend to get more compressed and then they tend to fluctuate based on opinion and region.
@Ryik

I dont agree with that lisy almost at all. But its still interesting for me to see :)
 
@Dreamepitaph
Squigly relies a lot on a charge and meter and without either she really suffers a lot against airdashers. She folds hella hard to pressure (val can freely loop j.mp pressure if she ever gets squigly in the corner without a charge) and only has s.lp( it's a little disjointed) and j.lk for those trying to airdash at her. J.lk specifically is her safest option since it beats just about everything in the air and is very safe if it whiffs, but if you ever get put in blockstun, your best option is to block until you get a bar but even then val, filia, eliza, and fortune are pretty hard to get off you once they start their pressure.

If you have a bar at neutral, in most matchups it's a free charge. With that task done you pretty much don't have to worry too much about the rest of the cast especially if you have fast reactions allowing you to punish things with the center stage + sbo/daisy pusher. Pretty much only really Fukua peacock and Bigband are the only characters that don't have to respect it. Against the airdashers, even if they apply pressure you have a reliable way out, your stancel becomes very safe making it ok to whiff, and their movement becomes very limited for fear of center stage.

Against non airdash characters she doesn't have as hard a time even without a charge. It's pretty easy to get out of most pressure with a pushblock. Your pokes (s.lp, j.lk, j.hp, c.mk) are also a lot more useful. at worst these matchups are like 6:4

I don't really agree with squigly being so low on a tier list. Imo squigly is better than filia and double. However she gets punished a lot harder than they do if an airdasher get in on her without a charge or meter. This is pretty much in 1v1 scenarios btw
 
Ryik said:
SG%20tiers_zpsjmilsqbs.png
I put Eliza high largely because of a certain friend of mine who first showed me what she can do. It's ridiculous how much mobility, range, mixups, and options she has for so many situations. Just by being subjected to him I became a decent Eliza and now she's one of my best, if not my best. She's easy to pick up and has a lot going for her. She can convert off of both grabs without much issue, has a full screen command grab that can be converted off of, has an overhead special that is safe on block, (I swear to god there is no way to punish it, it's impossible. I've tried everything, before he lands, after he lands, everything) and once again can be converted off of, a projectile of her own that can let her get in, she provides great assists, she has armored options and her damage isn't bad. In practice she's somewhat like Filia in terms of getting in, but with more range. Her neutral is also better and I don't think there's a single character in the game with more options as a Point than her. In summary: EVIL INCARNATE

Beowulf has very good grab mixups, instant overheads (that make Parasoul's look laughable) and a panic button if your opponent is dead-set on keeping pressure up on you. His ability to dominate the air with just j. HP makes him very good paired up with Peacock's George's day out assist so that punishing it when possible is dangerous and can feel like an unwinnable battle. I'm terrible with him and for a while I thought WulfCock was my best team just because of how well they work together. Then I picked up Eliza.

...Maybe he should be lower without Peacock on his team. I honestly think they have more synergy than any other team in the game.

Miss Fortune is scary. Can't play her at all but she has very scary mixups but more neutral options than Filia. She doesn't seem like a zoner character since she basically converts off of OM NOM NOM but that's in a nutshell what headless fortune can do if you don't pay attention to the head.

Filia is all about getting in and being a hyperactive hoe. Not just any hyperactive hoe either, but the hyperactive hoe. Mixups for days. Fukua on the other hand is the easiest character to play ever holy shit. End all ground combos with HP and all air combos with HK. You can now play Fukua. That being said her j. HK is extremely versatile if it actually lands and she has numerous options in the neutral. Her inevitable snuggle can be slapped on an assist to instantly give any character a very effective mixup option, and her projectiles make her feel like Parasoul with command grabs.

Parasoul is just good all-around. Unlike, say, Peacock or Filia, she can go with the flow of a fight instead of trying to dictate how a match goes, (like Fukua) but she has solid block strings and reversals to back it up.

Peacock doesn't have a lot of options if you go in on her. The thing is, can you get in on her? Once you figure out how to spam effectively with Peacock you can find that some opponents can completely get shut down by her whether you can combo half-decently with her or not. If you CAN combo with her, you can be deviously unpredictable with your teleports. I put her below Parasoul because if you have patience with your blocks it's not impossible to get in on her. If you don't let her teleport away it can be hard for her to get you off of her, and if she does you can probably just get in on her again.

Double is also good all-around. She's not nearly as good at dictating space as Parasoul is, (which is ironic considering what I said, I know) though the limiting factor of bandwagon rushdown and the crossover capability with flesh step makes her at least as devious as Peacock.

Robo-Fortune has good spam. She has good combos too. She doesn't have the ever-present threat of Bandwagon rushdown and her neutral options are usually bland. Good as they might be you don't need to keep track of a circus like with Peacock or worry about never having a neutral as with Double, and her grabs aren't as good as Double's either, which themselves aren't as good as Parasoul's.

Squigly used to be my main main, and possibly still is. (over Eliza) I get why she's hard to use and I get she has many flaws, her terrible tag-in being not the least of them. (Actually that may or may not be the worst part about her) She does however have brutal mixups with her stance cancels, good (passable?) aerial mobility, a relatively good neutral in her aerials cancelled by LK/MK shovel, j. HP and center stage. (Often into SBO or something) Her daisy pusher is quite possibly the best special in the game. Problem is she has no full screen attacks that don't put you a little too close for comfort; no projectiles, and she's not very fast. Almost anything with projectiles can force you to try getting in on them, and you aren't nearly as good at that as several other characters. Filia, Miss Fortune, Parasoul and Valentine can get in there faster, Eliza can convert off her j. MK unlike your j. HP, your j. HK can be moved around, counter-aerial'd or easily anti-air'd. She can't exert full-screen pressure without a stance charge, (something projectiles can deny her for the most part) and even if she did she couldn't convert off of her punish without meter.

Painwheel is a monster. She gets in on you and then obliterates you. She dominates the air with armor and can flight cancel her air attacks for days. Thing is her projectiles are pretty bad and she has about as much reversal options as Peacock. Maybe less. She's also somewhat predictable before she gets in on you in that she's likely gonna go for an air approach since her ground dash is terrible. She also can't block while flying, so good aerials can give her a hard time.

Valentine is good overall, very much like Parasoul, but underwhelming as well. Her projectiles are inferior, her grab is better but as long as you can combo off of it effectively why would you need the extra hand-holding? It seems as if she's not as damaging as other characters without poison (in which case she's better at it than them) and her neutral options are pretty bad or predictable. (Is obvious a better term?) She doesn't have Squigly's shovel to cancel out of aerials, savage bypass isn't safe on block, her dead cross doesn't travel the full screen unless she jumps up first, overall she seems assist-dependent. She's mobile sure, but she can't project out a constant stream of hate like Eliza can, isn't as fast as Filia, doesn't have as much reach as Parasoul or Eliza, doesn't have the spacing options of Double or Peacock, can't zone at all, her crossovers generally rely on jumping over people, and her air grab needs meter to reliably convert off of. All this being said Valentine is one of my best characters and possibly the most satisfying to play for the 100 hit combos.

Big Band zoning is just obnoxious. That being said you know everything you need to watch out for depending on whether you're airborne or not. He has a lot going for him but a lot of what he does is also unsafe on block. What really sets him low is his gigantic hitbox that makes really, really, really dumb shit apply to him and no other character. Pushblocks will not always be successful for him because of how big he is. Several aerial mixups and silliness work only on Big Band, and pretty much the entire cast has something of that nature. I can't even tell if he's the same weight as Double or not because he's so big that it seems as if he might as well be Parasoul's weight. I know he has a lot of potential for mixups and a lot of damage overall but his glaring weaknesses in his hugeness that make getting in on him that much easier puts him a cut below the pack. Which is to say, perfectly viable and strong in his own right, but he needed to be put somewhere on a tier list, so I chose the bottom.

Make no mistake, Cerebella's HERE WE GO is downright satanic. That being said she still isn't the best equipped to deal with zoning (largely due to her poor speed) and once she gets in she has middling mixups/methods of staying in. For a grab-centric character, it's a little odd Eliza and several other characters have better grabs. She's not a bad character, she really isn't, but then neither are Valentine or Big Band.

Unrelatedly I'm down for a demonstration-of Filia for example in case anybody wants to play me a few rounds.
 
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