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Painwheel MU Thread

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I'm thinking Eliza's IAD air grab is dangerous enough to be cautious about as Painwheel.Also, Eliza's dive kick as an anti-air does not really scare me. I don't know who has the better ground game though. I like Painwheel's normals better but I don't know how she would do against the summons.
 
I would say between normals with a lot of range (not much disjoint, if any, on most of them, though), Sekhmet, and the Albus wagon, Eliza would have the better ground game. I don't think PW's supposed to 'win' the ground game against most anyway.
 
The matchup isnt about disjointed normals, of which neither character is walking around with hugely disjointed hitboxes. The matchup is about range and speed of normals. Eliza's normals have way more range than painwheels AND have more speed. At which point, hitboxes matter little. Eliza's j.mk is 14 frame startup and airdash cancelable, painwheels j.mp is 22 frame startup. Painwheels j.mp can only really be use as an AIR TO AIR once per jump, Eliza's j.mk can be used twice per jump as an AA because of airdash cancel.

Whereas flight canceling j.mp makes the second j.mp always hit close to the ground and a bad AA. If pw decides to use a different move after the flight cancel for better AIR TO AIR applications, she still loses out on attack height and range.


Painwheel has the advantage while her j.mp is out and active but loses that advantage before j.mp becomes active and after its active frames wear off.
 
Does anyone have a lot of, or any, experience playing PW vs. Eliza? The theory talk is cool and all, but the matchup itself may play out wayyy different than it seems on paper. I'll be playing beta again after this weekend, so if anybody wants to mess around online and try to figure some junk out let me know, I'd be glad to participate.

Anyway, just to join the fun, I have no experience against her, but I've heard her defense is lacking and her DP is a really bad reversal, plus she does not have an air super IIRC?
 
She has an air super, last time I checked, but it has no invincibility. You don't need a DP for a grounded reversal when you have Sekhmet, although it doesn't really AA very well. Question about that: How early does Sekhmet come out? Can it be stuffed?
 
I think it takes long enough to start up as to not be a reversal. I didn't see any hit or throw invincibility either. One thing I would like to say is that her reversal option seems hard to mash reliably.
 
theDMAGS said:
Does anyone have a lot of, or any, experience playing PW vs. Eliza? The theory talk is cool and all, but the matchup itself may play out wayyy different than it seems on paper. I'll be playing beta again after this weekend, so if anybody wants to mess around online and try to figure some junk out let me know, I'd be glad to participate.

Anyway, just to join the fun, I have no experience against her, but I've heard her defense is lacking and her DP is a really bad reversal, plus she does not have an air super IIRC?


Very little of what i said in reference to the matchup is theory. Ive played around 50 or so games against Eliza with painwheel point and against 2 different Eliza points.

Not the most experience at all, but enough to evaluate the matchup on a basic level.
 
no need to defend yourself, im not trying to call anybody out or say this info is useless. I was just getting the vibe that everyone was speculating this stuff, not actually trying it in matches is all.
 
We'll probably find out when Eliza is released. I've only found a few Elizas in the beta and most were not really good.
 
With the exception of being locked down by laggy shots at fullscreen parasoul has never given me more trouble than just about any other character and pw pwns parasoul for free, on hit.
 
This is all 1v1, so that might be why, but PW v Para is the most lop-sided match-up for me (including the god-awful Squig v Pea MU). Her air normals out prioritize just about everything PW has. Good pillar's can make jump-ins difficult (seriously, if Parasoul gains a life lead, she can literally back up to full screen and prepare for a jump-in). Tear spam is easily dealt with via fly, but if the Para is aware of spacing, it cannot be punished. Air armor is almost completely worthless as j.lp > j.hp and tear > SS blow through it. The entire MU comes down to a few good guesses by PW or shitty play by Para (can't count how many Para's I air throw because they over estimate j.hp's speed).
Edited to add: Not to mention she covers our two major types of resets with a "mashed" pillar since it hits behind her.

If we are talking teams? PW is in a damn good place right now. I think she takes some up front work not required by a lot of the cast, but she is as viable as any of them.

Temple NUT! said:
So how does everyone feel about Eliza so far?

Still tough to say. I am not convinced I've fought any good ones.

She can compete in the air due to her huge hitboxes. But similarly, she gets easily punished due to her huge hurtboxes. She generally has to throw out her air normals well before you use j.mp or you'll win.

You do want to watch her overhead summon. It reaches further than you would think. And watch predictable jump ins. Sek will make you hurt for it by absorbing everything you jump-in with and punishing.
 
I think the Eliza MU is kinda in PW's favor. But it's still too early to tell.
 
Daemyx said:
I think the Eliza MU is kinda in PW's favor. But it's still too early to tell.

Yeah this is exactly where I'm at too.

@Dreamepitaph

I'll try to get a set in 1v1 with some better Eliza.
 
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Spencer said:
This is all 1v1, so that might be why, but PW v Para is the most lop-sided match-up for me (including the god-awful Squig v Pea MU). Her air normals out prioritize just about everything PW has. Good pillar's can make jump-ins difficult (seriously, if Parasoul gains a life lead, she can literally back up to full screen and prepare for a jump-in). Tear spam is easily dealt with via fly, but if the Para is aware of spacing, it cannot be punished. Air armor is almost completely worthless as j.lp > j.hp and tear > SS blow through it. The entire MU comes down to a few good guesses by PW or shitty play by Para (can't count how many Para's I air throw because they over estimate j.hp's speed).
Edited to add: Not to mention she covers our two major types of resets with a "mashed" pillar since it hits behind her.

Ask @Dagwood about the Parasoul matchup and how I shit all over him all the time if he picks anyone other than Peacock.
v7HEKNz.png


Getting hit by non-stop Pillars means you need to armor more. Getting hit by Air-to-air j.LP means you need to be smarter with your approach. Your j.LP is as good as hers. Stop worrying about hitboxes and worry about timing.

"Covers our two major types of resets". PW has tons of resets besides grounded crossups, which you should not be trying to do without covering reversal windows with armor first (Scare them into not pressing buttons). There's tons of mid-air resets that Parasoul has no direct answer for, save for blocking correctly. Most garden-variety PW mixups (Ground Fly > Do X) are garbage, and you should die a horrible death whenever you do them. Thank online play for making PW fly cancel overheads invisible.

Rarely does Parasoul get to "react" with something to smack you out of your approach. Learn the difference between getting smacked on prediction and getting smacked on reaction. If you're getting smacked on reaction, you're doing kusobaddie gimmick approaches. If you're regularly getting smacked on prediction, your neutral is yawn-snores plain, and you need to broaden your horizons. Either that or your opponent downloaded you.
 
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If @Dagwood is on Steam, I'd gladly go a few 1v1 sets to see what I'm doing wrong.

From my perspective, it feels more like I have to read the Para than the other way around. j.hp spam makes approaches risky, so you have to find the pattern and go in on it. It is punishable, but it feels like the momentum starts with Para and has to be earned by PW.

I fly a lot and this might be a MU that punishes that more than others.

In any case, I'd like to get some 1v1 with some good Parasouls to learn the MU better.
 
Lmfao.

I dont find para that much harder than anyone else. Shes tough at neutral, no doubt. But everyone is tough at neutral for pw. And unlike many other characters, parasoul is completely free to fly airthrow mixups. Its the only mixup i do on her:

St.mp xx fly then airthrow.
Or

St.mp xx fly DF j.lk fastfall, cr.lk,cr.mk,st.hp hitconfirm.


If parasoul guessed throw but you went for cr.lk... You win and do gobs of damage to her. If you guess correctly on the throw you still do good damage. If you guess wrong on the airthrow you take no damage, and if she guesses exceptionally right on the cr.lk, and does something like falling j.hp to blow up your cr.lk, then you take some good damage. But this has happened to me all of never.


But on another point... Painwheels j.lp is as good as parasouls? Oh lord this made me laugh hard. I temp mained parasoul for around 6 months and i can say with 100% certainty that this is not how it is.

It is almost like comparing dans fireball to sagats. Ok perhaps not quite that bad. Its more like comparing saks fireball to ryus.

Painwheel does have the caveat that she can chain os confirm her j.lp and if it wiffs she can cancel into flight. But its precisely this reason why parasouls j.lp is so much better than other characters... Basically EVERY other character in the game. Some have comparable j.lk attacks but no one has a j.lp as good as parasouls, though there are some characters that come somewhat close (filia) truthfully they arent in the same ballpark.


Though i guess maybe we semantics now... Idk... Still found the statement quite amusing and had to say something.
 
What I was trying to convey is that, for the purposes of air-to-air, Painwheel's j.LP has serious fundamental application in situations I hear everyone boohooing about.
 
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You have any videos of 1v1 PW v Para?

I'd love to see some, but good ones are nigh impossible to find.
 
Spencer said:
You have any videos of 1v1 PW v Para?

I'd love to see some, but good ones are nigh impossible to find.

Replay system going up soon. Patience.
 
Dime_x said:
With the exception of being locked down by laggy shots at fullscreen parasoul has never given me more trouble than just about any other character and pw pwns parasoul for free, on hit.
Good nails should be able to stop them or trade, plus you can combine super-jump, fly, and unfly to get through the napalm course. Personally, I like to have an assist soak them up while I fully charge nails so I can go in or throw more charged nails.

Edit: Sorry, forgot this is 1 v 1 with that last sentence. >.<
 
Dime_x said:
You will have moved full screen and will be right in the opponents face, this tactic has serious range. And when you do smart shit like do wiffed iad into midrange and then do the dash j.hp tactic... Its near impossible to outrange. So pw has to unfly or ground herself preemptively and thats where filia iad stuff takes over. And charged st.mp is an easy break for filia iad j.mp so it isnt something that you will be using with any kind of consistency against good players.
@Dime_x I'd rather discuss this in this thread before people complain. What you have described makes me think of danger to PW when Filia and PW are on an even level. What about when PW is above using fly? I get that it's supposed to take away PW's needed space, but I thought PW could take to the air since Filia only jumps once.
 
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I dont understand what you mean there. But I'll just go ahead and say that when pw is flying a half screen away from filia, and filia does that pattern, painwheel cant fly over filia. the pattern is to fast and painwheel flies to slow to make j.hp hugeness wiff... Painwheel has a height restriction on her fly when the opponent is grounded so that she is catchable. Why the opponent is in the air, her height restriction gets higher but she doesnt instantly go high, she has to fly upwards, and that where the filia pattern beats her, painwheel cant fly fast enough to get away.


Painwheel DOES have options, as i said in the other thread, its just that most/all of them are lackluster and require pw to give up something big or make huge guesses that will get her killed. And thats from a neutral position, not a position where one would expect a characters hand to be so forced such as oki or in a reset mixup.
 
I have plenty of Solo Painwheel matches I want to post on this thread but I don't want to spam the thread. So I leave these two videos.


 
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Raising the dead it would seem:

I'm playing again after a couple of sizeable breaks, and Eliza is the MU that gives me the most problems. She seems to win the neutral and once in block stun, I'm dealing with IOH resets into IOH resets.

So... does she have the better neutral? Am I approaching her wrong? Is her IOH not as oppressive as it first seems? Funny enough, Sek doesn't give me the same problems that she used to... now it is just Eliza in general.
 
H buer into thresher helps. You can j.lp instant overhead her with Painwheel. Armor normals like s.mk are good. Outrange her with your pokes. Eliza isn't all that great against pressure. She can stop you from getting where you want to be, but it's pretty even when you do get there. You can also tk thresher when being pressured. Life's good with a dp assist.

You use c.hp as Squigly's assist right? Call assist and j.lp for a high low that will os her reversal.
 
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I found that hg s.mk worked okay when at neutral, but it didn't work to well to get out of pressure. Am I wrong in assuming that you just have to guess right on her IOH shit and if you guess wrong, she gets a combo back into it?

No, I play solo.
 
Tk thresher or armor along with clever pushblocking. Her pressure is pretty strong, especially since you don't have an alpha counter or assist.
Also, her ioh is a bit slower than the others.
 
You have frames for the various IOH?
 
Kinda odd to ask but any tips for the reverse?

Having a pretty hard time dealing with pain's forward game, especially with her taking lead in a team since it feels like her heavy attacks from the air leave me wide open for an assist assault and her J.MP I think?

The one where she does this:
150


Is still pretty hard to deal with imo since if she does it anywhere besides face to face, I can't stop her or punish her on landing since my character will still be recoiling from the heavy hits.

I main Squigly and Fukua
(And sometimes: Parasoul, Robo and a Ms Forturn I can't really fiber upper with. It's a long story lolz)

Any soild tips with dealing with a particularly agro pinwheel?
 
Notkastar said:
Kinda odd to ask but any tips for the reverse?

Having a pretty hard time dealing with pain's forward game, especially with her taking lead in a team since it feels like her heavy attacks from the air leave me wide open for an assist assault and her J.MP I think?

The one where she does this:
150


Is still pretty hard to deal with imo since if she does it anywhere besides face to face, I can't stop her or punish her on landing since my character will still be recoiling from the heavy hits.

I main Squigly and Fukua
(And sometimes: Parasoul, Robo and a Ms Forturn I can't really fiber upper with. It's a long story lolz)

Any soild tips with dealing with a particularly agro pinwheel?

Definitely ask your characters' respective subforums, but I'll help how I can here too.

j.mp is hard to deal with, and it leads into combo (a decent PW should be converting it probably 80-90% of the time... good PWs are pushing 100%). It does have a reasonably long start-up though. If PW gets about 1/2 - 2/3 of the screen, she's going to start j.mp. Closer than that, it becomes a risk. Fast moves (Squigs j.lk) beat it clean and easily. It is also reasonably predictable so it is prone to eating invuln moves, tear/revolver shots, etc. Finally, it has an annoying habit of being prone to eating air throws. Parasoul's especially have a wonderful time just dash jumping into a throw.

In the event that PWs spacing is decent and she's putting you into block stun, pushblock goes along way and can be frustrating for the PW who has to keep trying to get in.

@Triblue

Are those the same numbers if the character doesn't IAD? For example, can't Eliza just j.lk for an IOH without needing to IAD?
 
J.hp is 23 frames
J.lk rising is never an overhead, it must be done when falling or air dashing.
Horus, I forget, but I'm pretty sure it's the slowest.
 
Spencer said:
Definitely ask your characters' respective subforums, but I'll help how I can here too.

j.mp is hard to deal with, and it leads into combo (a decent PW should be converting it probably 80-90% of the time... good PWs are pushing 100%). It does have a reasonably long start-up though. If PW gets about 1/2 - 2/3 of the screen, she's going to start j.mp. Closer than that, it becomes a risk. Fast moves (Squigs j.lk) beat it clean and easily. It is also reasonably predictable so it is prone to eating invuln moves, tear/revolver shots, etc. Finally, it has an annoying habit of being prone to eating air throws. Parasoul's especially have a wonderful time just dash jumping into a throw.

In the event that PWs spacing is decent and she's putting you into block stun, pushblock goes along way and can be frustrating for the PW who has to keep trying to get in.

I'll definitely do that next time m8 and thanks a bunch for getting back to on this in detail.
From the sounds of it, My best bet is to pushblock whenever I end up getting stun locked by that move.
Though I have to say, Did not once cross my mind that you could tap her out of the move. idk why but I just sorta assumed that moved was armored since most of PW airs tend to be and move seemed so invincible. Thanks for the heads up that a quick jab or air grab can put a stop to the madness in the corner.

Now I just need to found out a way to beat it while in the corner when they keep calling long pushblock preventing assists like Fukua's Drill, Cerecopter or honet bomber.
 
You can also avoid it and then take advantage of PW's slow normals. If you plan on pushblocking it then remember that is one of her more useful tools to pressure a pushblocking opponent.
 
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