SG Game Design Discussion

[Master Chibi]

Lol. U don't know what ur talking about.

If you've ever watched other fighting games you'll see combos dropped all the time cause of execution at the highest levels. These are people that have put thousands of hours into a game. Sure it is an available tool, but it isn't something that even the greatest executors regardless of amt of practice hit 100%. Watch all the dropped links in SF4 finals for example.

Why don't u try to grind that Sako combo out and try to infinity loop everyone to death in a tournament? See how it woks out for u.

People drop combos in SF4 finals because SF4 has the most asinine combo system to come out in a fighting game in the history of the genre.

 

[Spencer]

I still disagree. I think speaking in extremes (should we allow ToD in the game), it becomes obvious that you shouldn't balance around letting one player dominate an entire scene because s/he has the perfect execution to end it.

That said, speaking of much more realistic scenarios, it can (and should?) be used to an extent.

Like I said before, you wouldn't make a 5 hit combo with easy links do 70% of someone's life, but it seems more reasonable to let a 5 hit combo with brutal frames do a huge portion of someone's life. I don't think a dev should sit down and think "well let's make it arbitrarily hard and we'll call that a combo", but I think it should remain a metric as to what gets kept in a game. I especially like it if there is a risk to it. For example, if dropping the sakocombo let you open to some brutal damage of your own. Now that pits player skill vs player skill.

My argument with SG is that the amount of damage done in a combo is ridiculous, and if long combos are what is desired then there should be a limiting factor (one of which could be harder combos that increases a chance to drop). I'm more on the side of shortening combos, and I don't have a decent answer how to do that, but I am mentioning that there are alternatives and going to a game with tighter execution (which again... I'm not really an advocate for) is one way to do that.

 

[blufang]

1. SF4 combo system is quite flawed agreed.
2. I never brought up execution as a great way to balance, I agree that is a bad way to balance. Execution difficulties should arise naturally within the engine/system not be forced in.
3. I did bring up execution being able to make a difference in high level play. That was my only point.
4. So what do we do about the SG combo system? More push back on hits? A lot less carry, meaning it is harder to get opponent in the corner?

 

[Number 13]

4. So what do we do about the SG combo system? More push back on hits? A lot less carry, meaning it is harder to get opponent in the corner?

Common SG Combo design 'suggestion' I keep seeing over on Steam threads is "make them shorter and faster". Real question assuming the majority of the players are for that is how would they go about it?

 

[destruction_adv]

Common SG Combo design 'suggestion' I keep seeing over on Steam threads is "make them shorter and faster". Real question assuming the majority of the players are for that is how would they go about it?

Stricter rules on the IPS could help, but I'm not entirely sure, more once per combo limits'd be weird. Making them faster can be achieved with less hitstop I guess and speeding up a few animations (post hit buer reaper and Val's throw come to mind)

 

[ClarenceMage]

While balancing around "They can't possibly do it THAT often, it's high execution!" is dumb, ESPECIALLY for balancing combos, I do like having high execution stuff in games because it feels good to pull off. Akira's knee in VF, Electrics in Tekken, doing those things consistently just feels good.

Having the capacity for a character to be played at higher level because of increased player execution due to high capacity for quick changes in movement and quick reactions with specific options (Magneto and Melee's Fox & Falco come to mind) is also really cool because it keeps characters and the games they're in evolving over the years since the players keep bringing them to new heights.

 

[View619]

What's the problem with reducing the undizzy limit in order to force combos to be shorter? I don't have much experience with the system, but it seems like it would do the job.

 

[Spencer]

What's the problem with reducing the undizzy limit in order to force combos to be shorter? I don't have much experience with the system, but it seems like it would do the job.

I think this is likely the best option too, but dizzy is relatively controversial.

It isn't super loved, and it is awkwardly opaque.

 

[Dime]

Well jeez arent combos short enough? How damn short do people want them?

Vsav? I HATE vsav short ass combos. I find it extremely boring just hitting with like 3 hit chains and the like. And before anyone comes in with a combo demonstration... Im talking about combos that tournament players use regularly... Not bulleta combos etc etc etc.

I like where the sg combo is right now... They arent to long, they could stand to get a BIT shorter, but i mean at this point it really seems like complaining cause if getting hit.

All i hear is:

"I'm getting hit, pls mike z, make them stop hitting me" i mean why play a combo based fighting game in the first place? Go play like soul calibur 2 or something... Thats a great game... When all the glitches are taken out....

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I think Mvc2 or Guilty Gear style combo length (mostly mvc2) are a much better ideal than Vampire Savior style combos.

Don't get me wrong, Vsavs combo's are great, but I don't think they'd fit with this style of gameplay.

 

[blufang]

I think the point isn't to make combos less interesting, but to increase the importance of other parts of the game.

 

[View619]

I think the point isn't to make combos less interesting, but to increase the importance of other parts of the game.

Other parts of the game ARE already important enough though. You can grind out optimized combos all day, but you will never even hit a good player in the neutral or survive long enough under pressure to ever land it if you don't know how to actually play the game. If anything is keeping players from learning the other parts of the game, it's assist confirms during neutral that most players lean so heavily on, not combos. It's nice to see those specifically taking a hit.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

I think the point isn't to make combos less interesting, but to increase the importance of other parts of the game.

Nah, it's just to target combo length, really.

This game is so momentum-heavy that even if combos do become slightly shorter you're not necessarily going to see other parts of the game play out differently or more often. Maybe you'll see more resets and thus more reading of the opponent and baiting, but that's about it.

For example: Say that resets become more commonplace because combo length becomes shorter and overall damage. You're probably not gonna see that much more playing out of the neutral game than usual because if you go for a reset and get a hit, then the ball is in your court again. If you go for a reset and get reversal'd, then chances are that the opponent is still going to be able to convert off of that reversal and put you into a combo or a pressure situation (Fiber upper, Updo > Gregor, Napalm > Bikes > Whatever Parasoul does, Whatever > Painwheel DHC, Whatever > Catheads DHC... you get the point).

If you decide to play all of your matches safely and still largely shy away from resets, then nothing really changes for you still since you aren't going to be losing out on large amounts of damage (since most of a combo's damage comes from the first couple of hits + supers). You'll have to spend more resources, but you'll still be getting kills in just 2 - 3 combos.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Napalm > Bikes > Whatever Parasoul does

You are aware that it ends here, right? Aside from very specific circumstances, Parasoul can't combo after Pillarbikes.

 

[IsaVulpes]

i mean why play a combo based fighting game in the first place? Go play like soul calibur 2 or something...

I mean, why play a reset based fighting game in the first place? Go play like Sengoku Basara X or something..

Why did YOU pick up SG originally? It was communicated from the start that this would be a reset dependant game, "MvC2 without the broken".
Did you wait 6 months after Vanilla came out, looked at gameplay and then went "WOW, there are 60 second long 14k damage meterless combos! Amazing! I want this game! #Combolove"?

 

[Dime]

I mean, why play a reset based fighting game in the first place? Go play like Sengoku Basara X or something..

Why did YOU pick up SG originally? It was communicated from the start that this would be a reset dependant game, "MvC2 without the broken".
Did you wait 6 months after Vanilla came out, looked at gameplay and then went "WOW, there are 60 second long 14k damage meterless combos! Amazing! I want this game! #Combolove"?

.... Er.. I use resets you crazy crazy person you. Combos arent resets.... Um i was talking about combos... Um you are talking about resets...

Um





Er?

-edit... I think you just need to stop replying to me. You seem to infer many things from my posts...many of which are things im not even saying.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

Why did YOU pick up SG originally?

Personally, I really like the neutral game in Marvel 2, and wanted to see it done in a way that exchanged the crazy brokenness for more traditionally sound game design, while still keeping the general play-style and offering some re-balanced versions of the more interesting stuff in mvc2.

.... Er.. I use resets you crazy crazy person you. Combos arent resets.... Um i was talking about combos... Um you are talking about resets...

I'd say a reset is something you do as part of a combo. So not so much a combo or not a combo as a certain technique that can be incorporated into a combo.

 

[IsaVulpes]

You seem to infer many things from my posts...many of which are things im not even saying.

It's more the other way around

I can try again:
"I don't like shorter combos, you go play soul calibur instead" makes about as much sense as "I don't like long combos, you go play sengoku basara x instead"

I don't play SG for 30 second long combos, and I didn't pick it up for 30 second long combos.
There are a lot of things I love about the game, and a few that I loathe -
Boreass 30 second loops into unseeable reset into another 30 second same loop being one of them.

You are condescendingly assfacing something like "I'm getting hit, pls mike z, make them stop hitting me" as if everyone who doesn't like long combos was garbage (which btw REDUCE the skill level necessary to play the game.. you know, which I noted in my Damage#1 thread). How bad is MrPeck at this game, I wonder?

 

[Dime]

I still dont think you have much of a leg to stand on... Marvel has waaaaay longer combos... So you cant really use it as source of comboiness... It has plenty of 3 hit off axis combos and whatnot... But those are more just pokes than combos... But if we take the literal definition, then you have a point.

But i have a point that the game has changed drastically from what it was to what it is now... I like longish combos and that was what the game was, and what the game still is.

It will never play like marvel 2 because marvel has huge pokes that dont confirm into big stuff easily like sent frying pan and... Etc etc.

Marvel has actual pokes that are good... Sg by and large is ALL hitconfirms. If you make the game short combos it will just be like sf4... Seriously. Lots of neutral turtleing behind updo like it already is. Then a short combo into reset.... More turtling behind updo if the reset fails... So on and so forth.

The only chracters in this game that plays remotely close to marvel top tiers not named magneto are peacock and painwheel. Peacock can actually spam shit like capcom, spiral,or blackheart... So thats cool. And painwheel can fly around like sent and call out AAA assists... But this game plays very little like mvc2 did. Its homing jumps are nowhere near as crazy and there arent a bunch of huge hitbox normals to just spam from relative safety on wiff over and over again.


So i see the marvel 2 arguments as lacking because this game has very little of the cheese that made marvel 2.... Marvel 2. And the ease of hitconfirms into big stuff is one of them.


But I'm sure you will have much to say about what i just said.... Dont know if i really wa..


Whatever, bottom line is that sg's neutral is way different from marvel so you arent really going to geta marvel feel from it, no matter what you do unless the characters are almost completely redesigned.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I dunno, I kinda get a general "Marvel" vibe from Skullgirls neutral. Maybe not exactly Marvel 2, because a lot of the strategies and characters don't have direct conversions into this game (despite all the "Fillia is Magneto, Peacock is Cable" claims). But it still has kind of that feel in pacing and the general "logic" of the game and the way the move sets are set up. I mean, it feels way more like Marvel 2 or X-Men Vs Street Fighter than Mvc3 does in my honest opinion.



Also, maybe someone who is better at the game might want to correct me on this, but here's what I see as the primary difference between Skullgirls and Marvel 2 combos:

(keep in mind that I'm speaking very generally about the game, I know there's a lot of exceptions to this. I'm also speaking with the WHOLE cast in mind, as well as the top 8 or 10 characters)

In Marvel 2, unless you're a tri jump character (who thus has the advantage of being able to bring enemies down to within jumping distance from a super jump cancel), you pretty much have much more limited options off of hitconfirms.

What can you do off a ground hitconfirm? You can do the magic series (which for most characters, is little more than 3 hits if that), or you can do a launcher. If you choose the magic series on the ground, than all you can really do beyond that is either super or call an assist and start from the beginning (which is your only chance to do so, after that no more assists). If you launch, than you can air combo and that's pretty much it (again, assuming your not a tri jump character, you could also go for one more loop of this with certain assists.). Some characters have a few other tricks, otg's, air supers, air dash or double jump follow ups. But for the most part your combos pretty much end after you commit to the air.

Now compare that to Skullgirls. What's the main difference? Well, super jumping is more like Guilty Gear instead of sending you into the fucking stratosphere (and you no longer need to worry about Flight Screen Deterioration either), so now when you air combo someone, you're already pretty much within jumping distance and you only need some very basic tech (or the corner, or both) to otg them, relaunch, juggle, and do all sorts of other shenanigans.

So I guess what I see as the main difference in the combos (besides obvious stuff like the ips), is the lack of a separate screen for the super jumps. Pretty much every air combo can be converted easily into multiple juggles, restands, and more air combos. With or without an assist. If Skullgirls had a super jump screen like Marvel 2, I couldn't see combos being nearly as long as they are now. On the flip side, can you imagine what Mvc2 would be like if all you had to do to juggle someone 3 times in the corner with every character was just slow down your moves a bit after launching them?

Not endorsing a super jump screen, just saying that's what I think makes it difficult to have that mvc2 pacing on the combos. Also I think there's more to why the combo system works out the way it does besides "more hit confirms and less pokes."

 

[destruction_adv]

(which btw REDUCE the skill level necessary to play the game.. you know, which I noted in my Damage#1 thread).

I know you noted this, but I still can see combo length and player skill as being cause and effect related. I can see a tangential relation between the two, but getting better or not getting better is largely something I would attribute to an individual player an not something in the system.

EDIT: Sorry I replied with poo brain before my morning coffee, let me reply to what you actually posted. It's similar to the above but also slightly different I suppose. I don't feel the combo system really reduces the skill required to play the game in a really meaningful way either. Reducing combo length won't make most other parts of the game any easier or harder to execute and for some it might make them want to learn more about other parts of the game, there is an equal some that probably won't try to change much at all. I practically did the opposite when I picked up this game and haven't even bothered learning a really long combo to this day (well, not exactly, I did set out trying to learn a few long combos but ended up abandoning them for shorter versions when I decided it was too much work when resets are there), so I can see some people feeling the same about other parts of the game if combo length is shortened.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

You are aware that it ends here, right? Aside from very specific circumstances, Parasoul can't combo after Pillarbikes.

Oh. Welp, there are still DHCs if she has the meter. You get my point, though.

 

[dekillsage]

Just want it to be easier to rush Cerebella down. If anything she needs to be changed to make it scarier to be close/rushing her down.

huh

I'd personally love to see the recovery on Bella's command grabs be increased IN EXCHANGE for her getting something like a slide knockdown on Diamond Drop, Grab Bag, and/or Excellebella

I wouldn't

 

[iLoli]

Just skimming through the page...

I agree that execution shouldn't be used as a balancing tool. Tools themselves should not have execution barriers on using them imo, the only execution barrier should be able to put them to use effectively in the middle of a match (in like a footsies situation, which usually requires good reflexes and being able to do inputs consistently).

Balancing damage (aka stats) with execution is not really needed, because it already kinda is. The higher your execution, the better combos you'll be able to do and the more damage you'll be able to get. Making a characters effective combo execution barrier higher than all the others is a really gimmicky and arbitrary thing to do, and doesn't really accomplish much besides making sure that newcomers can't play that character (which is bad). In a balanced game, you shouldn't have to be Sako just to play a character at the same level as the other characters.

Hint:Why Viper is a shitty character design.

 

[wiredgod]

People drop combos in SF4 finals because SF4 has the most asinine combo system to come out in a fighting game in the history of the genre.

I didn't play SF4 because I thought it was ugly and felt boring. Can anyone describe for me why SF4 combo system sucks so hard?

 

[Number 13]

To put emphasis more on the neutral game footsie mindset then combos. I imagine the lofty combo difficulty learning curve is so that not just anyone playing the game for a couple hours will immediately master those tight link combos to magnify that much more to the 'Pro' players that can consistently land those combos.

I agree the game artstyle feels ugly to me, but not boring especially in higher level play.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

Hint:Why Viper is a shitty character design.

If you're talking about sf4 C.Viper, I'm one of the three people who doesn't played Sf4, so that reference is lost on me.

 

[Spencer]

To put emphasis more on the neutral game footsie mindset then combos. I imagine the lofty combo difficulty learning curve is so that not just anyone playing the game for a couple hours will immediately master those tight link combos to magnify that much more to the 'Pro' players that can consistently land those combos.

I agree the game artstyle feels ugly to me, but not boring especially in higher level play.

Agreed. It is heavily focused on defense and waiting out for that perfect timing (EVO finals with Gen was amazing to watch) which can get dull depending on how in the mood I am for it, but it just looks and feels strategic.

I also think it is ugly. Guilty gear and SG are my two favorite artwork fighting games.

 

[ukyo_rulz]

I saw the thread title and got excited. Wrote up my thoughts on ideal FG design. But now I realize this is about SG game design and what I wrote was not appropriate. But I already wrote it so I will just throw it out there anyway:

In my mind, a perfect fighting game is one that shortens the learning curve and encourages players to play the actual game rather than go to training mode. It encourages players to be active when they play and take risks. It makes being predictable a losing proposition. It avoids the "slippery slope" problem (http://www.sirlin.net/articles/slippery-slope-and-perpetual-comeback.html). It takes internet latency into account. As such, some of my ideas on how to achieve these goals are:

* No character-specific anything (everything works on everyone)
* Everything has punishable recovery, which you can cancel out of but eventually you will run out of things to cancel into and be punishable. (no safe pressure)
* There will be a simple rule that governs what is punishable by what (ie. all normals will have recovery greater than the startup of all weaker normals)
* Tremendous amounts of chip damage for specials and trace amounts of chip damage for normals (blocking is dangerous)
* Limited combo system (short combos only) with generous buffers and easy timing (more playing, less lab time)
* Ridiculously high damage scaling for combos, with unscaled supers that all lead to both characters on opposite ends of the screen (if you want your combos to be damaging you need to burn meter and are forced to return to neutral afterwards)
* Supers are invincible while active and punishable on recovery (newbies always assume this, so might as well make it so they don't have to unlearn it)
* No throw techs. No just-frames. No quick-roll. Basically no standard mechanics that require tight timing. (netplay-friendly by design!)
* Everything except blocking and neutral is invincible to throws. Blocking state is always throwable (maybe not abusable because punishable recovery on everything means no tick-throws, I think)

I didn't really think any of the above ideas through in detail. It's just an assortment of half-baked concepts off the top of my mind. The design goals are something I've put much more thought towards.

 

[Age]

In my mind, a perfect fighting game is one that shortens the learning curve and encourages players to play the actual game rather than go to training mode...

I kinda differ from this. I do think it's important for the game itself to be fun/deep/engaging without necessarily dedicating a large amount of time to training mode. That said, part of the joy of playing games that have such complex systems is the process of discovery. Discovery of combos, techniques, mixups, team concepts etc. All of which can make training mode pretty much a game in its own right.

As for the specific ideas, a couple bother me:

- no safe pressure
- chip damage to discourage blocking

Those seem a little contradictory to me, since I'd be discouraged from throwing out pokes, and discouraged from blocking them too.

Also, I don't think I like the idea to have universal rules on what type of move punishes what types of moves. It might make different characters hard to feel unique since their normals would have similar frame data to everyone else.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I tend to be a bit cold on games where "discovery" is a big part of the games appeal. The way I see it, discovering something is a one time experience, and by making sacrifices to have that sense of discovery in tact, your trading long term appeal for short term appeal.

This is also why I loath single player games with a focus on trial and error in difficulty. I mean if you can get better by practice or learning the game and using your brain, that's good. But if it's impossible to win on your first attempt, or impossible to lose on your second attempt, than you got a problem.

But that's just me.

 

[Dime]

Well, since this is game design discussion, and since I've never put down my philosophy of what i like in fighting games and because of boredom ill list what i like about fighting games and games design as well as how i think characters should generally behave:

Design


Personally i like games where throws are good, very good. Reason being is that i dont like it when people can just neglect the midrange spacing.. Example: all the people in earlier days of sf4 (and some probably still to this day) that wont anti air jumpins regularly because that is a risk, and because simply blocking the jumping attack and then crouchteching their way out was seen as lower risk... At least at the time. Not by all players mind you, but some definitely had that style of play. And it goes across the entire game. With throws being less powerful, non airdasher games tend to slow down.

So... Throws are good in my mind.

Midrange play is ALWAYS at the forefront of my thoughts as far as good game balance/design is concerned. Midrange in my mind is where the core component of fighting takes place IN GOOD GAMES. And I'm talking about actual fighting... Not spacial turtling... Actual fighting means pressing them buttons, not JUST moving back and forth.

In order for this to happen its kinda paramount for at least 1 of 3 things to be in the game:

1.Long range pokes that have a decent walk speed to range and recovery ratio... In other words, moves that are Quick to come out, have decent range, and recover relatively quickly (using the game as an example of what quick and what is not quick). In capcom games these kinds of moves are all over the place, but guiles cr.mk is the prototypical example. Guys st.mk from the alpha games is another one. Unfortunately, while skullgirls has some hella long range pokes, they almost all suffer in recovery. This is neither bad nor good, just an observation.

2. The 2nd thing that is needed generally speaking is a safe way of moving around fast, effectively. (Fast walkspeed)

Sf4 DOES NOT have this. In sf4 ground movement is really slow... Characters walk forward super slow in that game, this is done to make dashes more pronounced. Unfortunately dashes create a situation where the dasher cant block.. So they are anything but safe.

This creates a game where its rather hard to just go offensive against an opponent. This is easily seen in early sf4 where characters would just sit there and look at each other. Sf4 didnt get more offensive until the vortex and divekick really came into play. Vortex characters play the boring sf4 style footsie game until a knockdown... AND THEN the offensive game happens because at that time the attackers options get much more pronounced whereas the defenders options get less pronounced.

I'm not necessarily a fan of that style of play either... I much more prefer a run and gun style of play... Lots of button presses lots of moving forward, punishes dont do THAT much and certainly dont lead to vortex bs, which actually slows games down (harder punishes generally tend to slow games down, and being hit into a vortex is a hard punish cause it means that one could lose the entire round for a few more heavily weighted in the opponents favor, guesses)

Harder punishes make for more defensive play because people tend to not want to get punished hard. So they will stop, slow down, think moar. Thinking more slows games down. Unfortunately this is true. And its easily seen when someone is confused:

Confusion sets in when one has to many options available and doesnt know which option to take. In fighting game terms this means that the person confused has no reads on what the opponent might do next AND they have gotten their flowchart whether it be offensive or defensive, shut down. Thats when actual thinking happens. And... Its never pretty.

An example from mvc2:

When storm is running away spamming whatever it is shes spamming... Shes not really critically thinking at a high level. Shes just running around spamming shit and hoping to see something she likes, such as an overextension of the opponent character or assist. The thing is... There is nothing wrong with that in and of itself. Its the fact that the tactic is nigh unbeatable by so many characters that is wrong. But the thing to see is the low risk low reward... MASS BUTTONS, goings on. This not thinking thing is actually fun. And it allows for setups at her pace, so there is some thinking going on. And if we look at the opponent, he can do the same thing... Press mad buttons try and engineer an in or some crazy chip... Etc etc. This is exactly where dynamic gameplay stems from. Overthinking doesnt encourage dynamic play, it encourages up/down back because of analysis paralysis. Dynamic play generally comes about when characters have a wealth of options for dealing with any certain situation. Less dynamic play when they have less options.

To me, the characters that really represent this type of dynamic play are:

Peacock, blackheart, arakune, sentinel, storm, mvc3 Spider-Man (weirdo movement options), mvc3 modok, painwheel to a lesser extent.

Almost all these characters have crazy movement and great projectile pokes or quick recovering pokes. In the end its almost ALL ABOUT the pokes. Lots o pokes generally means lots o neutral, with the caveat that those pokes cant easily confirm into full combo.


3.

The 3rd thing is fakes of some sort. The ability to fakeout the opponent into thinking you might attack, but dont, generally allows the neutral game to last longer than if fakes arent used, this is baiting, but a more active version of it.... Lik ryus fake fireball or painwheel flight into wiffed jump attack close to the ground shenanigans.

About sg:

Coming back to the hard punish, and the easy hitconfirm:


The reason why i dont like the good invincible assists to give combo is BECAUSE of the things i just said. Those assists slow the game down and make for high damaging punishes as well as giving easy hitconfirm to many of the characters in the game.

As ive stated before, the easier it is to hitconfirm, the more there will be combos from everything that hitconfirms and the more those moves that hitconfirm, will be used. So going back to moves like updo and pillar, and bomber, of course people that use those assists are basically going to use them for everything. The biggest punishes to those moves were getting thrown before the assist went active.... Which skewed risk reward since throws scaled damage to 50%. And not every character could combo after a throw easily.
steps have been taken to rectify the situation such as the new assist scaling, which is GREAT. But invincible assists still lead to vortex on hit. And still do rather good damage for pokes that can be confirmed into full combo from fullscreen away (argus dhc gregor) granted that that isnt on every team for sure... But the point is that as long as invincible assists give any kind of combo on hit, they will be used in favor of other moves/assists because vortex in this game is so good, and vortex leads to unscaled combos.

Also note that as i said up at the top, there arent many great pokes in sg (not when compared to... Like, capcom games)
But if invincible assists gave full techable otg, then only well read and positioned assist calls will get mid air converted, and the assists themselves will function much more as pokes. Also note that techable knockdown (with 50% scaling to followup combos still applied) is less of a nerf than the one i personally would apply which is:

that the opponent character becomes fully invincible after having been hit by any assist that has invincibility frames and the character in recovery gets either a 3 way or 2 way tech option (3way equals tech in every direction as well as neutral, 2 way means tech backwards or in place) 2 way tech being a further nerf to invincible assists so that players cant simply take the hit to get an invincible forward roll toward an opponent playing keepaway.

If the invincible assists got all ability to hitconfirm taken away from them, then, imho the game would become much faster. People would be much more willing to press forward off assist cause the punishment for making a mistake is nowhere near huge. Also, if the invincibles were nerfed like this then assist lockout could Become a thing of the past (this is VERY GOOD) because as it is, assists are the only real long range pokes.

Dynamic assist calling as meatshields and other things could come back. Moar buttons, more movement, less upback. And sg would have actual poke wars.

But what about other assists giving full combo such as hairball or excelebella or cerecopter?


Make them either abide by the same rules, or be happy that those assists arent invincible and that your new fully invincible assist will never trade to hairball or cerecopter.



Anways, im sure people will call me stupid and i dont know what I'm talking about. And hey its quite possible. But trying for something like this at least as an attempt to make for some more button/midrange/offense at midscreen friendly, fighter. Looks good in my eyes.


I mean gtfo on its own is EXTREMELY powerful.. So why give it combo as well?

 

[Master Chibi]

I didn't play SF4 because I thought it was ugly and felt boring. Can anyone describe for me why SF4 combo system sucks so hard?

To do three crouching light punches into a special you have to chain the first two light punches, LINK the third one, and then cancel into the special from the link off the third one. Many combos end up being 1-2 frame dependent and the game makes absolutely no mention of it at any point.

It's why you WILL see people drop combos in the game at even the highest of levels, it's that god damn stupid.

 

[RemiKz]

Most links like that are relatively easy and some of the harder ones can usually be mitigated with plinking. Heck, I use a pad so I don't have access to typical plinking, and I still don't think most are too hard.

That being said, I'm not entirely fond of links myself and would rather just not deal with them lol. Even without links, people drop combos regardless.

 

[View619]

I actually like the idea of assist scaling with a change to green bounce. The new green bounce being, you have to pick up the character within 3-4 frames of hitting the ground (pretty much be ready to pick up immediately) so characters can't run in from close to full screen and convert off of an invincible assist hit after up-backing to play behind it. I agree that invincible assists should remain as a strong option, but the follow-ups need to be balanced accordingly. It would also be a slight buff to lock-down assists that keep you standing on hit, which is fine because it gives players reasons to use other options (Filia players switching between Hairball and Up-do because Up-do is no longer the all around better choice).

 

[Dime]

@View619

I concur on all that. However there is a very big reason why i personally would make it so that characters hit by invincible assists just go full invincible with no chance at followup:

When you shorten the otg window, you arent really doing anything but increasing the execution needed in order to get that combo. Which is balancing by execution, which as you know there is already a lot of debate going around about, with the general consensus that balancing by execution is pretty terrible.

Also, it wont affect every character equally. Val will be least affected, painwheel most affected. Every other character in between. Lets take a rigid example:

instead of a 4 frame window to pick up the otg. Its lessened to 1 frame.

Does that make it any better? Val will still be the least affected, painwheel the most, with every character in between with the caveat that only the val players with high execution will be able to really consistently pull it off.

Looking at numbers we can see:

Current val confirms roughly 85% of updo confirms (numbers not scientific) when the otg window goes down to 4 frames from the 7 or 9 that it currently is, that percentage also goes down. Let's say to fifty percent. Ok. Now let's say that the otg window goes down to 1 frame and that vals converison rate goes down to 20%

All updos do 1000? Damage.

So painwheel whos percentage will be lower than everyone elses will be somewhere at 5% or so will be doing say 6k damage 1 in 20 times from the confirm. All total thats 25k damage.

Now let's look at val, lets also say she gets 6k damage off of every assist confirm.

That means val will be doing 40k over 20 assist hits.

Meaning that val will still have a huge handicap against other characters when it comes to converting.

Im not necessarily saying that that in and of itself is a bad thing, but it certainly bares mentioning.

The only way to truly balance it is to give it a zero sum, which is either terribly easy to convert assists for everyone like it was pre patch, or to make it so that no one can convert from them. I'm not of the mind to particularly care either way, but people have been saying that they want more neutral...


and easy assists confirms are about as anti neutral as it gets.

Also before anyone thinks that I'm saying this because painwheel. No I'm not. I use other characters all of which have some great uses of otg:

Peacock argus... Stupid easy.

Parasoul crazy fast dash startup with good range and a fast lk = easy pickups

Double has the same dash as parasoul but with a slower lk that has more range... Still stupid easy confirms.


I only use painwheel as an example as to the contrast of how some characters will get shafted more than others.

 

[View619]

The only issue I have with making these knockdowns fully invincible is, how do you decide what remains green bounce and what goes blue bounce? Would LP Bang for example, cause fully invincible knockdown too, etc. Or would it just be any assist that lifts the opponent off of the ground? I am actually fine with any assist taking the opponent off of the ground causing blue bounce.

 

[Dime]

The only issue I have with making these knockdowns fully invincible is, how do you decide what remains green bounce and what goes blue bounce? Would LP Bang for example, cause fully invincible knockdown too, etc. Or would it just be any assist that lifts the opponent off of the ground?

Imho anything startup invincible or invincible only to attacks as an assist, since assists cant be thrown.

Lp bang is anti throw iirc so it has no real invincibility as an assist... So it can have its stagger properties with no ill gotten benefits in my mind.

 

[View619]

Imho anything startup invincible or invincible only to attacks as an assist, since assists cant be thrown.

Lp bang is anti throw iirc so it has no real invincibility as an assist... So it can have its stagger properties with no ill gotten benefits in my mind.

Isn't LP Bang still invincible to hits, while MP Bang is invincible to everything? Unless every invincible move's assist version will be changed to knock down? I'm fine with that, too.

 

[Dime]

Isn't LP Bang still invincible to hits, while MP Bang is invincible to everything? Unless every invincible move's assist version will be changed to knock down? I'm fine with that, too.

It very well might be.

I was going to say that if it is invincible to attacks then take the stagger away when used as an assist.
Or make it only throw invincible on point.

:)

If this assist thing were to go through im sure there would be some case by case examples that might need to be further balanced... But thats a part of good game design... Nothing starts out perfect, its an ongoing process of balance.