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SG Game Design Discussion

DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Make removing the head a risky process; being able to take it off with a fully invulnerable move that causes stagger and gives you the advantage over frames on block as well as now having the head off ready to make every move safe is pretty ridiculous

Yeah I always felt that's a tad silly. Safe on block maybe, to allow her to blockstring into it safely. But totally invuln? Please no. Those two things shouldn't go together, ever.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Ok, so after much thought and frustration I think I know where Fortune can get nerfs without completely changing her play style:
  • Make removing the head a risky process; being able to take it off with a fully invulnerable move that causes stagger and gives you the advantage over frames on block as well as now having the head off ready to make every move safe is pretty ridiculous
  • Don't let the head cancel moves into Omnomnom
  • If the head is hit have it suffer from lockdown (5s.HP length at the most)
  • Reduce the range of slides to make spacing more important for making moves safe, but maybe make it possible to have the head walk in exchange (this is an iffy clause, but it makes up for the lack of mobility from reduced slide distance, although reducing slide range on its own could be fine and not need compensation).
- Head toss is vulnerable to throws, though it is kinda silly that it's hit invincible and + on block.
- Nom would be pretty useless, then. You're barely ever gonna hit it raw and it doesn't do much as a combo tool. Zoom > Nom already causes extra cooldown than just a zoom or nom alone.
- This or longer cooldown on blocked head attacks. Or both?
- This would kill her headless combos since the slide barely covers the distance needed to continue comboing after a super. :( (It'd be nice if she could instantly summon the head to her position but that's too much work and would make no sense)
 
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Don't make hitting the head free it up for an action. Add cooldown to it if that happens, forcing the body to move in or protect it in general. Silly that if I want to punish the head for being out there, the opponent gets a faster action because of it.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
- Head toss is vulnerable to throws, though it is kinda silly that it's hit invincible and + on block.
- Nom would be pretty useless, then. You're barely ever gonna hit it raw and it doesn't do much as a combo tool. Zoom > Nom already causes extra cooldown than just a zoom or nom alone.
- This or longer cooldown on blocked head attacks. Or both?
- This would kill her headless combos since the slide barely covers the distance needed to continue comboing after a super. :( (It'd be nice if she could instantly summon the head to her position but that's too much work and would make no sense)
I get people with raw Nom all the time (just super jump into double jump and people are considerably more susceptible to any head attack), I had a few solo matches with Isa yesterday and I'm pretty sure I managed to grind his nerves with it. The idea behind reduced slide distance was to decrease her combo potential unless she's spaced correctly, but admittedly it hits too hard because of the carry on Fortune's air super, that's why I think letting the head walk around if you hold HP or something (which wouldn't require any extra assets because Fortune's head walks around in her headless victory animation) would be a good replacement for that range.
 
So we want to buff Filia and nerf Fortune, that seems fair.
 
blufang said:
So we want to buff Filia and nerf Fortune, that seems fair.
Is it really a buff at this point though? Will it allow more damage, or similar damage and more corner carry (cause more corner carry at the cost of damage isn't strictly an advantage IMO.)
 
blufang said:
So we want to buff Filia and nerf Fortune, that seems fair.
I play Filia and I play Fortune, I have done since SG's initial release, as someone who should be biased in Fortune's favor I can safely say she needs a nerf, people who play Fortune for a week can do as much damage as someone who's played any other character for months because her head makes virtually everything safe and she has some stupid moves (i.e Head removal).

I was also under the impression that Filia's hairball loops had been removed because of damage concerns (in fact this is exactly what I was told when they were taken out), but the new undizzy should alleviate those, making the removal of the loops obsolete, and that's why I want them (As well as all the other arbitrary combo restrictions that now serve no purpose) to be removed.
 
When I mentioned that for filia... It was just an example. I am a proponent of her getting back hairball cancels infinitely... But I'm certainly not losing sleep over it. The pint being that it was an example.

Another example?

The meter decrease... Now that combos are shorter... Can't we get back our better meter gain from before. Or AT LEAST look at the meter gain difference between certain characters? I mean Bella makes a shitton of meter for seemingly no reason while painwheel and double make much less... For seemingly no reason. Unless it because they both have safe on block supers... To which I say... Ok great, but isn't that something that should be stated rather than have huge discrepancies between characters for no mentioned reasons?

Also, I'd like to go on the record and say that I don't think that the hairball cancels will make filia to good. And it doesn't increase her pressure at all since pressure is on block or 1 hit stuff or attacking safe on block stuff... None of which have anything to do with filias infinite hairball cancel.


But yeah for real I'd like to see as many changes that have been done simply to limit combos, to be reinstated.

Undizzy makes almost all of those things non issues.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
I play Filia and I play Fortune, I have done since SG's initial release, as someone who should be biased in Fortune's favor I can safely say she needs a nerf, people who play Fortune for a week can do as much damage as someone who's played any other character for months because her head makes virtually everything safe and she has some stupid moves (i.e Head removal).

I was also under the impression that Filia's hairball loops had been removed because of damage concerns (in fact this is exactly what I was told when they were taken out), but the new undizzy should alleviate those, making the removal of the loops obsolete, and that's why I want them (As well as all the other arbitrary combo restrictions that now serve no purpose) to be removed.
The actual reason for the removal of airball cancel was "because she shouldn't get the damage AND the corner carry from the same thing," which is incredibly ironic considering Valentine exists.
 
Valentine doesn't have the damage, tho. (Without a purple vial of doom, that is...) And a lot of her damage is in Flatliner, which completely obliterates any corner carry your combo might have gotten you.
 
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Lol. Start your combo in the corner with a loaded lvl3 vial and J. HP xx vial throw, then use several (strict) heavy attack links... that'll prove she has damage. Apparently that's how you prove your character can get close to TOD these days. Ha.
 
Darklightjg1 said:
Lol. Start your combo in the corner with a loaded lvl3 vial and J. HP xx vial throw, then use several (strict) heavy attack links... that'll prove she has damage. Apparently that's how you prove your character can get close to TOD these days. Ha.
Are you seriously trying to bring that argument in here too over something virtually unrelated?
 
He brought up Val's damage and corner carry, so I vented by posting a way you get "big damage" with her now... which is a joke.
Nobody has to argue about anything, but some buffs thrown Val's way too would be nice. Maybe undo the change that made J. HP bounce the opponent higher than it did originally. 'Makes it easier to bring light-weights down after a launch (or get rid of the weight-class BS altogether).
 
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Darklightjg1 said:
He brought up Val's damage and corner carry, so I vented by posting a way you get "big damage" with her now... which is a joke.
Nobody has to argue about anything, but some buffs thrown Val's way too would be nice. Maybe undo the change that made J. HP bounce the opponent higher than it did originally. 'Makes it easier to bring light-weights down after a launch (or get rid of the weight-class BS altogether).
It might just be me, but Val still seems okay. Again, long combos were never something I could pull off, so maybe it's just that I'm playing the way I always played.
 
What I proposed has more to do with positioning than combo length.
I also still think the ground version of her scalpel super needs to be fixed for when it's used right next to someone or in the corner (will only hit some characters with 1 out of the 8 scaplels... just move her back a little bit before she throws them). That'll make it so carrying someone to the corner and then using super isn't going to make you lose out on either the corner advantage or damage from the super.
 
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I'd like to know in what universe is Val's midscreen (to corner lol) damage lower than Filia's. I get to do 3 1-frame links in a row for 7.2k.
Darklightjg1 said:
What I proposed has more to do with positioning than combo length.
I also still think the ground version of her scalpel super needs to be fixed for when it's used right next to someone or in the corner (will only hit some characters with 1 out of the 8 scaplels... just move her back a little bit before she throws them). That'll make it so carrying someone to the corner and then using super isn't going to make you lose out on either the corner advantage or damage from the super.
So don't use scalpels in the corner.
 
Darklightjg1 said:
What I proposed has more to do with positioning than combo length.
I also still think the ground version of her scalpel super needs to be fixed for when it's used right next to someone or in the corner (will only hit some characters with 1 out of the 8 scaplels... just move her back a little bit before she throws them). That'll make it so carrying someone to the corner and then using super isn't going to make you lose out on either the corner advantage or damage from the super.

You know she has s.HP to move her back and you don't always have to end in super right?
 
In combos I only really use it in DHC for post-DHC followup because it ain't worth it otherwise (because it doesn't hit enough). Wanting it work better in general so you wouldn't have to omit a S.HP xx HK SB before super and keep them in the corner isn't unreasonable though.
 
Broken Loose said:
I'd like to know in what universe is Val's midscreen (to corner lol) damage lower than Filia's. I get to do 3 1-frame links in a row for 7.2k.

I really don't know if she's supposed too, but the midscreen combo I used for Fillia did more than the one I did for Valentine. That might be just the combos i use though.
 
Darklightjg1 said:
Maybe undo the change that made J. HP bounce the opponent higher than it did originally. 'Makes it easier to bring light-weights down after a launch (or get rid of the weight-class BS altogether).
There was something about that which was apparently completely busted with how it originally worked and was changed, so I doubt he'd bring it back.
I don't know. I can still do like 6.5 to 7k with no poison/assist help and 1 bar in the beta, which is roughly half their health in most cases.
 
I'm actually curious if what it was meant to fix had anything to do with the ips system in place at the time.

I don't really have a problem pulling that much damage either without poison, but there's some alternate stuff where I use (purple) poison during the air combo at the beginning while omitting a normal and I think it's kind of strict to hit with it and continue on characters that float higher due to their weight class (Squigly being the worst offender). I'd like to bring them down during the juggle more consistently without risking whiffing something right under them or switching sides when I don't intend to (that happens sometimes). There's altered timing, but like I said, it is just stricter for no good reason.
 
I thought Filia was top tier, and Valentine too (on teams), along with Double (who is like on every pro team). What about Bella, Squigly (who everyone agrees is the worst character), Peacock, etc.? If we are talking about buffs, we should look at the characters that really need them rather than the ones who already got plenty.
 
blufang said:
I thought Filia was top tier, and Valentine too (on teams), along with Double (who is like on every pro team). What about Bella, Squigly (who everyone agrees is the worst character), Peacock, etc.? If we are talking about buffs, we should look at the characters that really need them rather than the ones who already got plenty.

Duckator and other good players mained the same teams in Skullgirls v.1 where everything was completely different and we are about to get a patch that changes everything again.
 
dekillsage said:
omg yes give bella a teleport and a airsuper that has all the hitstop in the world
No, don't do that
 
blufang said:
I thought Filia was top tier, and Valentine too (on teams), along with Double (who is like on every pro team). What about Bella, Squigly (who everyone agrees is the worst character), Peacock, etc.? If we are talking about buffs, we should look at the characters that really need them rather than the ones who already got plenty.
The game has/will changed recently, we can't just assume tiers will stay the same.
 
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destruction_adv said:
The game has/will changed recently, we can't just assume tiers will stay the same.

Then why are we discussing Filia changes? Shouldn't we wait to see if the beta changes go into the real game, and how everyone is effected after an extended period of testing?
 
blufang said:
Then why are we discussing Filia changes? Shouldn't we wait to see if the beta changes go into the real game, and how everyone is effected after an extended period of testing?
Actually you're 100% right, much of what people are saying is just theory fighter. the reasoning is that these limits aren't needed anymore because undizzy will prevent combos from getting too long or damaging. I honestly find it rather reasonable as well.
 
A better buff for for Bella would be making Diamonds are Forever a 1 meter move.
4wk0s.jpg

Buzz represents all the solobellas, Woody everyone else
 
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Calypsx said:
Personally, I would rather see other characters buffed to be as good as Fortune rather than her get nerfed.
Ok ok I got this.
Valentine: Nurse Upper or Fiber Vial
Peacock: Acme Upper
Painwheel: Buer Upper
Double: Fugazi Upper
Parasoul: Napalm Upper
Squigly: Divekick... Upper?
Cerebella: Slide knockdowns on Grab Bag and Excellebella. And Diamond Upper.
Filia: She's arguably just as good or better than Fortune so she gets NOTHING (though I would not be opposed to a Thigh Upper).
 
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Oh man
idk if you actually want to see bella with a sliding knockdown on Excellebella
 
dekillsage said:
Oh man
idk if you actually want to see bella with a sliding knockdown on Excellebella
I do. It'd be nice to see her actually getting a reward from making a hard read instead of just having the opponent be knocked away from her so she has to work to get in again.
 
I wouldn't consider landing excellebella a hard read, and you do get in vs your opponent with the exception of landing it with your back against the wall regardless if they can tech the ground or not.

As an assist it also wouldn't be fun to fight someone who combo's into excellebella, gets 20 days to get to where he needs to be, then makes you choose between throw, overhead, low, cross up etc. I don't want to fight a filia or val who can get that positioning for free, nor do I want to fight a peacock who uses the sliding knockdown as a way to charge soid for free as I sit on the ground waiting.
 
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dekillsage said:
I wouldn't consider landing excellebella a hard read, and you do get in vs your opponent with the exception of landing it with your back against the wall regardless if they can tech the ground or not.

As an assist it also wouldn't be fun to fight someone who combo's into excellebella, gets 20 days to get to where he needs to be, then makes you choose between throw, overhead, low, cross up etc. I don't want to fight a filia or val who can get that positioning for free, nor do I want to fight a peacock who uses the sliding knockdown as a way to charge soid for free as I sit on the ground waiting.

It can be for point Bella only. It's a decent buff, seeing how raw Excellebella outside of the corner does nothing for her (although I guess you can super off of it now)?
 
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I like the idea of grab bag getting something. Excellabella doesn't need anything, or at least it didn't when we could still dash after dynamo (god damnit mike).
 
What is the justification for grab bag NOT getting anything else right now? It seems a little odd compared to other tools in the game.
 
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