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SG Game Design Discussion

i just jump it or use lk teleport... or hit it...this is solopeacock speaking i've never had a hard time dealing with bike, older bike was more anoying when it keeps going even though you hit parasoul.
 
dekillsage said:
Bike is kinda worthless in every match up atm though. Give the guy on the motorcycle a gun :PUN:


i think its good in a decent amount of situations to warrant use.

1) good for a universal corner carry combo from anywhere on screen to give parasoul her best offensive positioning (well, i mean its the corner so everyone but double's best).

2) if called at certain ranges or covered by an assist, its great to force your opponent into blocking the bike which creates pressure opportunities or conditioning them into trying to jump it for an air to air/air throw opportunity.

3) cr.hk xx bike is a great way to end a combo and set up some oki scenarios

In the neutral I think its a really good tool against Bella, PW, and double.
 
oh so this is the REAL gameplay thread then?
 
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I figure this is the right place to put it?

I think the current implementation of Downs is terrible. Didn't really care about them since I don't play 1v1, but now that I sometimes play Solo I don't see how they are any close to a good idea.

...

I much prefer Downs over Rounds, but I want Downs to just be a knockdown where the opponent gets to keep their Undizzy and be done with that.

Teams:
1)If you kill a char, you get a free mixup opportunity as a reward (worst case it being a j.LP/Airthrow 50/50)
2)In addition to that, the opponent will be stuck in the corner (favourable position for you) and you can dictate the distance you want to be at and set some shit up (ie tear tosses)
3)Killing chars with a full combo is worth it, but resetting before a kill is also useful due to the next char coming in with lower Undizzy

Current Downs:
1)If you kill a char, you don't get a reward other than that life being gone (worst case you're actually fucked due to the opponent having faster buttons than you do)
2)In addition to that, the opponent is free to move around in the blank period (neutral position for you, or if you want to play keepaway this is utter garbage cus he gets to run in your face without you being able to do anything about it) and the char with better mobility can dictate some things (ie Parasoul is royally buttfucked cus she can only dash/backdash/jump while other chars can run, doublejump, airdash, etc)
3)Killing chars with a full combo is a *MUST* due to Undizzy dropping to 0 in the in-between period anyways

'My' Downs:
1)If you kill a char, you get rewarded with a knockdown and can just as well set up some basic mixups (worst case being a low/throw 50/50)
2)In addition to that, the opponent will usually be stuck in the corner (due to your combo bringing them there); at least you will be able to set some shit up (ie tear tosses)
3)Killing chars with a full combo is worth it, but resetting before a kill is also useful due to the next life being on lower Undizzy

TL;DR: Current Downs have little to nothing to do with Teams, and actually nerf the shit out of already weak solo chars (keepaway which is hard to do with a lack of assists to gain space with) while tremendously buffing every rush the shit down character with fast buttons, as they get to run in your face for free and will beat your 7-8f jabs with their 5f ones easily.
 
I'm not sure how I feel about them.

In some sense, it feels more equitable. Have a rough start and are going to almost certainly going to lose the round? Might as well put some serious hurt on since it carries over.

I think it was also implemented to deal with how long solo v solo runs. Though I'm not sure, but they definitely feel faster now which is a good thing for lobbies (though relatively neutral thing out of lobbies).

I do agree with you, that those with bad mobility start with a small disadvantage. PW has terrible non-fly mobility and slow start up on her moves, so each round I generally have to play passive vs anyone that pushes into my face.

That said, I could take them or leave them.
 
Nono, I like Downs over Rounds and the Health and Meter carryover.
Just not with the 10 seconds of walking around without being able to attack after a char has lost a life.
 
I may be bullshitting here, but I feel you are assuming that a death in downs is directly equivalent to a death in teams, which is fundamentally not true.

All of your suggested changes have the sole and single purpose of bringing the way to play a 2v2 into a 1v1 without assists. Even though I believe it's a valid thought, I feel it's FAR from what the design under 1v1s is meant to be.

The distinction between rounds is clearly there, one must not pay by a mistake he made the round before. A second round is a second round. Absolute neutral is there. This is the way it was before downs, and this is the way it is now.

I am particularly fond of the old system way better than the current one, I believe these 3 seconds of neutral stupidity without being able to do anything anyway is retarded, but I REALLY like the meter carryover.

You want to reward a player who won a round better? Look at it this way: having to keep the meter after your current round is over is enough incentive to reset even if you have an assured kill with a super. That alone is the advantage I want to keep by the next round. Anything beyond that I feel would be undeserved, having in mind the distinction between rounds I mentioned before.

If I could change something, I would either remove the neutral period after a kill entirely and bring it back to how it was before; or reduce the neutral period by like half and make the player who lost be unable to tech that knockdown the took.

Btw, sorry for my english, It's not my first language.

EDIT: typos
 
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The only thing I'd change is taking out this 3s of running around. When someone is killed, the positions should reset, but the meter and HP should remain the same, IMO.

About the advantages of killing someone, in this current system you have 1s more to run around and position yourself better, but I don't agree that the one who won the round should get advantages. I mean, he already has more HP than the other, why would he have more advantage than this? Giving more advantages would make some matches more one-sided than they should be.
 
The downs are supposed to function like Vampire Savior, and they do a good job of emulating that. The health and meter carryover is the main point, you can move around to position yourself in different parts of the screen but not to continue your assault from the previous round. It works as it is supposed to. Maybe the down could be a little shorter, that's all I would change.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Nono, I like Downs over Rounds and the Health and Meter carryover.
Just not with the 10 seconds of walking around without being able to attack after a char has lost a life.

With rounds you get to reset your spacing.

If Downs didn't allow you to do that and you had to start the 2nd down in the corner and unable to get out you'd be at a severe disadvantage. It especially makes it bad for zoning since you don't get to reset the spacing to get your positioning back.

Downs already favors the winning player compared to Rounds, there's no need to make it even more momentum heavy.
 
Blame VSav for having an influence on 1v1 play.
 
I kinda just want vampire saviors.
 
The spacing isn't RESET. The spacing is RESET with Rounds. With downs, the char with faster buttons who wants to be in my face gets a tremendous advantage during the down period, as he can get up close to me without me being able to use my tools (superior range, superior hitboxes, fireballs, etc)

This is 'preround movement' with all its problems (both players walk into each other in the middle of the stage and the guy who has faster buttons wins; any attempt at gaining space is just you running yourself into the corner for free) and even ughly implemented (chars with superior movement options get to keep them, so some chars can doublejump airdash all over the place while others are limited to walk/dash/jump)

~~~

To make my point REALLY simple:

I'm Parasoul, fighting Filia. I kill her, have 40% life left.
!!! NOW I AM ESSENTIALY AT A DISADVANTAGE !!!
Cus she's freely running in my face, utmost likely gonna land a hit in the 2nd 'round' (as she has faster EVERYTHING than I do, and is able to position herself better due to being able to airdash), kill me off of that, then I sit on 0 Undizzy and we get to play the same game again

THAT IS COMPLETELY RETARRRRDEDDDDD

~~~

E: I have no fucking idea why people are talking about health and meter carryover when I specified multiple times now THAT I LIKE THIS AND WAYYYYY PREFER IT OVER ROUNDS etc

Is reading really that hard
 
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So what you're saying is you want downs like injustice has them? Would that be fiiiiiiiine?
 
Downs, ups. Who cares. Whens pre round walking testing in beta for teams?
 
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IsaVulpes said:
as she has faster EVERYTHING than I do, and is able to position herself better due to being able to airdash

Actually both Filia and Parasoul's fastest air normal is 7 frames, so... just make sure you're in the air.
 
Woofly said:
Downs, ups. Who cares. Whens pre round walking testing in beta for teams?

So, MvC2\MvC3 round start for SG teams (RIP Peacock players)?
 
dekillsage said:
So what you're saying is you want downs like injustice has them? Would that be fiiiiiiiine?
I have no idea about what injustice downs are, sorry.
I quick looked at some YT matches, this looks like neither player can move?
Or do they just decide not to because they're Superman

Jason said:
Actually both Filia and Parasoul's fastest air normal is 7 frames, so... just make sure you're in the air.
GJ missing the point of me still being in the fucking face of Filia as a reward for killing her
P.S. Please teach me why Downs favour the winner of the first round more than Rounds do
 
View619 said:
So, MvC2\MvC3 round start for SG teams (RIP Peacock players)?

would kill point double players. Peacock would probably be fine.

That being said nooooooooooooooooooope wouldn't do it(lets try it for fun)
 
IsaVulpes said:
I have no idea about what injustice downs are, sorry.
I quick looked at some YT matches, this looks like neither player can move?

Guy dies and you back off and taunt.(I think) Then they get up and the next round starts. Can't move during
 
View619 said:
So, MvC2\MvC3 round start for SG teams (RIP Peacock players)?
I did say beta and testing right? Yeah I did, sounds like something a beta could and is used for.

Also if you check Mike's todo list he mentions the possibility of testing it. Search for "See about allowing movement before rounds start…?".

@Mike_Z
 
What I want is

Either:
- Char dying means opponent gets stuck in crumple/sliding knockdown, other guy can freely act in the meantime
Or:
- How Vsav actually works, just a techable knockdown with no breaks

(To the people saying that we took Downs from Vsav, please look at 1:00 and tell me whether this has anything to do with how SG 1v1 looks like)
 
You said:
With downs, the char with faster buttons who wants to be in my face gets a tremendous advantage during the down period

I said:
I would either remove the neutral period after a kill entirely

We're both defending the same point here. May that be clear. But I don't really understand what you are defending in the end.

1. You tell us in your first post that you want to reward a player who won a round with mixup stuff:

'My' Downs:
1)If you kill a char, you get rewarded with a knockdown and can just as well set up some basic mixups (worst case being a low/throw 50/50)
2)In addition to that, the opponent will usually be stuck in the corner (due to your combo bringing them there); at least you will be able to set some shit up (ie tear tosses)

2. Then you contradict yourself telling us that you don't want to be taking mixups in the face:
Cus she's freely running in my face, utmost likely gonna land a hit in the 2nd 'round' (as she has faster EVERYTHING than I do, and is able to position herself better due to being able to airdash), kill me off of that, then I sit on 0 Undizzy and we get to play the same game again

THAT IS COMPLETELY RETARRRRDEDDDDD

Let's make one thing clear, okay? THERE IS NO WAY (at least not any that I can come up with) to balance a downs system with neutral time as it is currently that will not favour some characters over the others due to movement impairing/advantage issues. I'M WITH YOU ON THIS ONE.

The thing is... you have suggested stuff that would make that EVEN WORSE. Explain to me how the hell giving more setup options on knockdown would make your life easier against a Filia as Parasoul? You're poisoning your own idea.

Again, please show us you're not the one who lacks competence on reading and picture my suggestions. I like the idea of SEPARATING ENTIRELY a round from another exactly because of the point you've risen.

And please, don't make a fuss about everyone defending meter carryover and pointing a finger at you as if you've not already said you defend the idea aswell. I've brought it up because it ALONE is a feature that gives the so called "reward" you're looking for properly.
 
IsaVulpes said:
P.S. Please teach me why Downs favour the winner of the first round more than Rounds do

Because you get touched once, reset once, dead character = now I have to work though two life bars of my opponent with only one.

Compared to if I get crushed in the opening round in Rounds I still have two full bars of life to work with, provided I can win the next round.

IsaVulpes said:
I kill the opponent, have 1% life left.
Downs: My opponent now has to deal 101% life (1% life to get into the last 'round', then another 100%) to win, I have to deal 100%
Rounds: My opponent now has to deal 200% life (2x 100% life) to win, I have to deal 100%

Except that's wrong because in Rounds if your opponent wins the next round they get another full life bar. Yes, you only 'technically' only have to deal 100% but it all has to be in a single round.
 
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Thanks! Forgot about that indeed.
That seems like roughly equal to me then?
Lemmie check.

E: Uuuuuh it's a bit difficult to calculate.
It's a lot easier to get into a 3rd 'round' during Downs than in Rounds,
but that 3rd round is then probably in the 1st round winners favour.

That does seem roughly equalish to me?
 
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Vulpes complaining as Vulpes does, lets ignore him guys and talk about the pros and cons of pre round movement. You know........a real topic.
 
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noaa said:
The thing is... you have suggested stuff that would make that EVEN WORSE. Explain to me how the hell giving more setup options on knockdown would make your life easier against a Filia as Parasoul? You're poisoning your own idea.
No? IF I WIN, *I* get a reward = Setup time. If I lose, I get fucked. Shit happens, I shouldn't lose.
In the current version, no matter whether I win or lose, I'm fucked. Filia always gets to run in my face for free.
 
Good boy, now read the entire post and you will understand why I defend a freezed round start after a kill.
 
IsaVulpes said:
No? IF I WIN, *I* get a reward = Setup time. If I lose, I get fucked. Shit happens, I shouldn't lose.
In the current version, no matter whether I win or lose, I'm fucked. Filia always gets to run in my face for free.

The winner gets the most important advantage in a fighting game, he won. Lel.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
What I want is

Or:
- How Vsav actually works, just a techable knockdown with no breaks

(To the people saying that we took Downs from Vsav, please look at 1:00 and tell me whether this has anything to do with how SG 1v1 looks like)
IIRC downs used to be exactly like this. The problem was that, say:
- Fortune is comboing the opponent and they have a sliver of life left before she supers
- Fortune kills the opponent near the beginning of her super. The opponent gets back up and Fortune is still in her super animation
- The opponent gets a free punish because Fortune is still doing/recovering from her super

Though really, this could be fixed by making it so that more supers only deal the finishing blow on the last hit or something.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Though really, this could be fixed by making it so that more supers only deal the finishing blow on the last hit or something.
A much much simpler fix would be to just lock out the teching until I'm done with my current animation, much like there's no 2nd character coming in while I'm stuck in my Argus if the Beam kills in a Team match.
 
blufang said:
The downs are supposed to function like Vampire Savior, and they do a good job of emulating that. The health and meter carryover is the main point, you can move around to position yourself in different parts of the screen but not to continue your assault from the previous round. It works as it is supposed to. Maybe the down could be a little shorter, that's all I would change.
The problem I have with the current downs system in Skullgirls is that it doesn't serve the same function as downs in Vampire Savior. I've noticed that when you have a 1v2, 2v3, or 1v3 scenario; If the solo takes down the team they are almost immediately killed simply because they have low/half health while their opponent is back at full with access to assists. I think Skullgirls has always been best played with rounds regardless of team sizes, and when I watch tournament footage that seems to be the case. Number of rounds is almost always set to 1 in offline tournaments, and I don't think online fascilitates anything but single round games (that might be for other reasons though). For solo player like myself, downs make the game go by faster so it's accomplishing it's goal nicely. I just don't think non 1v1 Skullgirls benefits from the new down system at all.

If it's a matter of saving time go back to rounds but something similar to Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.
(@0:45)
Keep the meter gained by both players but reset everyone's health. Movement is still allowed but the time allotted is shorter than currently in the SG.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
I just don't think non 1v1 Skullgirls benefits from the new down system at all.
Wait are you talking about Downs in Teams now

That's a really different matter and nothing I want to go into, it's an unsupported mode and I have no opinion on it at all
 
IsaVulpes said:
Wait are you talking about Downs in Teams now

That's a really different matter and nothing I want to go into, it's an unsupported mode and I have no opinion on it at all
That's fine, but I think it's worth talking about. Having to set number of rounds to 1 and have a longer-than-necessary period between team rounds to simply hit play again and wait isn't really optimal. But the alternative is having a more unbalanced situation for team bouts.
 
Woofly said:
I did say beta and testing right? Yeah I did, sounds like something a beta could and is used for.@Mike_Z
Yes, I want to try it. It's VERY difficult to do.
Or at least it was last time I thought about it. Now with having locked out everything before round start in Downs, it's probably easier.

@PaperBag_Sniper
Multiple rounds in non-1v1 is "unsupported, the option is only still there because it was already there". I don't care how it affects solos-vs-teams or anything else.
If it ain't how the game works in Tournament Mode, it probably won't get fixed.

@IsaVulpes
When they were that fast (and they WERE initially) many people complained. You're in the minority, surprise surprise.
 
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I guess this is a problem for characters that don't have a double jump.
 
Mike_Z said:
@IsaVulpes
When they were that fast (and they WERE initially) many people complained.
Do you recall what exactly they complained about? For the life of me I can't see any advantage in letting rushdown chars walk into my face for free.
The only complaint I can even think of would be "It doesn't really feel like killing a character if they just stand up instantly after", which could be circumvented by whatever.. plain freezing the screen for a second?

Same thing for preround movement in teams, how is that anything but a tremendous buff for characters who want to be in the opponent's face while a huge nerf for anyone with slower buttons / a different gameplan?
 
What about keeping HP/Meter and reseting initial position?
 
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