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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

PME said:
The only damage nerf I think she needs is to H Gato, FWIW
assistless bnbs dont use H gato unless you're vs big band (or you've developed some more PME black magic that I haven't seen yet) so this doesn't really nerf her damage that much.
 
Would it be too much to also suggest that when Parasoul calls the M dive and Mdive is hit it gives the same benefit of not being hit by projectiles while behind it to assists as well? There have been a few matches (robo AI pls) where my assist takes a ton of damage or like argus killing my assist and because even if my assist is behind me it still gets hit cause the beams n things whiff. I'd be fine with not I just didn't know if it was intentional or not.

I understand if not I just thought it was instesting and it came up a bunch in a few matches cause I didn't know it operated like that currently.

Lol

@Mike_Z for the highlight
 
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IsaVulpes said:
:^)
I didn't say "it wasn't a buff", I said it didn't give him any new abilities [to stay alive], it just made those existing abilities more accessible for more people. Which is also true of Parasoul, but the comparison that Tank made, which is what I was responding to,
Tank said:
With BB's parry improvements and not dying from chip as long as he is parrying he is able to survive final blows forever
is not different from what you could do before. It's not like the parry window is suddenly 100f with no cooldown.

Negus Eyoel said:
Then can I have double's air grab hitting assists also back? Since that was also a copypaste error. If not, could you fix rekka meter gain? She should not be able to build nearly a full bar without assists.
No, because the analysis is "do I agree with it or not", not "was it originally a mistake". :^P Double's airgrab hitting assists was stupid, to me.

Masqman said:
Hi! @Mikez I'm not sure if this has been asked already but is there anyway possible that you could play endless without encountering Marie.
[snip]
If the answer is "no" is it possible I ould get the reasoning as to why? You typically (at least 98%) have really good reasons for things that are "weird".
Do you mean Survival?
It's still setup on the game side as "these fights in this order", it's not "this fight over again 10x then Marie". So it eventually ends. I could see about making it not end, but that's extra code which means extra bugs. And I could see about making it not end with Marie, but that just seems strange? If the community would prefer it, though, I'm open to that.

@Fuzzy_Snugs
Daisy DHC is a technical limitation, actually, because the putting the opponent actually on top of the casket was difficult when I made the move. I can see if it's possible to fix, though.
H divekick breaking armor (it's possible just to mark it as a move that breaks armor, which would NOT break Sekhmet or hyper armor) is also moderately reasonable.

KhaosMuffins said:
Even if left in as a unique feature, I still believe H rekkas could manage to build a bit less meter. Even at max scaling, H Rekkas alone build nearly as much, if not more meter than her entire last string of normals.
It also gives the opponent 3x that amount, though?

Masqman said:
Can I also suggest that when Parasoul calls the M dive and Mdive is hit it gives the same benefit of not being hit by projectiles while behind it to assists as well?
Technical reason it doesn't - it's very difficult to find the point character's assists from inside a projectile.
Lore reason it doesn't - man he ain't jumpin' out there for commoners, he's there to protect the PRINCESS! :^P
 
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Mike_Z said:
It also gives the opponent 3x that amount, though?
It does, but this doesn't change the fact she gets to kill more frequently because she will get that last bit of meter she needs for super/dhc because of those rekkas. Nerfing it would force her to do one more reset (or spend more bar if you have it) to get those kills- which I assume would be the point of the damage nerf? Unless I'm missing something.

That said if you were to nerf Fortune's damage, did you already have something in mind?
 
Mike_Z said:
I could see about making it not end with Marie, but that just seems strange? If the community would prefer it, though, I'm open to that.
I think it would appeal to the casual audience a lot. I see it as a positive introduction
Dolfinh said:
assistless bnbs dont use H gato unless you're vs big band (or you've developed some more PME black magic that I haven't seen yet)
Saving it for ceotaku
 
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Mike_Z said:
Do you mean Survival?
It's still setup on the game side as "these fights in this order", it's not "this fight over again 10x then Marie". So it eventually ends. I could see about making it not end, but that's extra code which means extra bugs. And I could see about making it not end with Marie, but that just seems strange? If the community would prefer it, though, I'm open to that.
I think they mean something like an endless Arcade Mode, just keep fighting normal characters without Marie. Like Tekken Ghosts or something. Could put it under Vs. CPU with a setting to randomize a different opponent every rematch.
 
Dolfinh said:
assistless bnbs dont use H gato unless you're vs big band (or you've developed some more PME black magic that I haven't seen yet) so this doesn't really nerf her damage that much.
From 2014

I actually have a list of ways to consistently combo j.hp into H el gato
Most if these are corner only, but some work midscreen on a few characters, and they all require the opponent to be grounded.

L:
L fiber, j.hp, H axe kick
L fiber, j.lp, j.hp, H axe kick

M:
c.hp, L fiber, j.hp, adc j.hp, H axe kick
M fiber, j.lk, j.hp, H axe kick

H:
M fiber, j.mp, j.hp, H axe kick.

These are the ones I know at least
senpai haven't noticed me for two years ;-;
 
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I'm fenster and I endorse that post

(it mostly just hurts my brain, seriously wtf)
 
alright That makes sense.

I don't know how popular it is with whole community (cause I honesty don't know how many pay it enough to comment).
I'm not a coder so I don't know how hard that word be but if you beat her on survival doesn't it just bring up a new set of characters to fight. If not then yeah that makes hella since but if it does then I would just be a matter of not triggering marie fight? (or opting a skip which would defeat the purpose though.) note- I cant beat marie ... I know I'm bad.

And Megret makes sense as well, I guess i'll just be a yeah i better just hold that. At least it covers both assist and lead if it's an assist

As well as leaving the field hella early with the shield still on the screen making it difficult to mash in some setups (wakeup kaht, some other assists because of the hit thing.)
 
Yeah when I first hear survival I thought it was endless survival like SFV's or something
 
I'm kinda ok with Fortune building a lot of meter. It's nice having more than 1 battery character that isn't just peacock.

Also I did some testing on combos and she doesn't really gain very much more meter than other characters in 1 combo. She doesn't gain very much at all until the rekka part actually.
99fa7288b46c537a8235cebeebbc406a.png


Fortune:
c.LK, MK(2), HK(2), LK Fiber,
j.HP, adc, j.HP, MK el gato,
c.MP, MK(2), HK(2), LK Fiber,
j.LK, j.HP, MK el gato,
LP, LP, LK, MP, MK, HP, HP Rekka x3

Valentine:
c.LK, c.MK(2), c.HP,
j.HP, HK bypass, MK bypass,
LK, c.HP,
j.HK, HK bypass, ad, j.MP, j.HK, MK bypass,
LP, MP, MP, c.MK, HP, HK bypass
 
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I think the issue is that in how much time she games meter. Also meter gain comes from rekka loops and gato(iirc) you only have 2 gato's and 1 rekka. Most of her meter gain combos involve looping one or the other into oblivion
 
val's p much the "rushdown" battery in this game.

edit besides Fortune obv

edit Val's more the lame rushdown battery
 
Masqman said:
I think the issue is that in how much time she games meter. Also meter gain comes from rekka loops and gato(iirc) you only have 2 gato's and 1 rekka. Most of her meter gain combos involve looping one or the other into oblivion
Are we talking about head-on or headless rekka loops? To my knowledge, you can really only get 2 different rekkas in a combo without using an assist. The headless rekka loop doesn't build very much meter last I checked. The gato loops do build quite a bit of meter but aren't as easy to set up I think.

99fa7288b46c537a8235cebeebbc406a.png

5056a04089df9aafce9aa25d122a3277.png

The second fortune combo is:
c.LK, MK(2), HP, HP rekka x2, slide finisher,
c.LK, HK(2), LK Fiber, ad,
j.HP, MK el gato,
MK(2), HK(3), LK Fiber,
j.LK, j.HP, MK el gato,
LP, LP, LK, MP, MK, HP, HP rekka x3

using this route does net you a nice extra chunk of meter, but you sacrifice damage and your otg.
 
I don't play fortune that's just what I've been told by other ones. Her rekka's glitched or something right? :P
 
Just a thought, what if hitting Peacock out of the startup of her bombs (mainly MK/HK george) wouldn't cancel them from coming out? It would sort of give her a really niche combo breaker with MK. Also with airshow bomb the Robo matchup would not completely one sided. Still think it's weird LP bang has 8 more frames of recovery than MP bang considering it's not as useful. Is it because it hits a little earlier than MP does? I feel that just hurts the move more as it make confirms off predictions very difficult to impossible at certain ranges.

And finally, I thought of something that maybe might make L teleport a bit useful but not sure what people would think of L teleport sending Peacock to the middle of the stage or screen. I understand one thing about the teleports is that she can't use them to get distance from the opponent, but ehh just a thought.
 
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So maybe Big Band's new jmk[2] isn't so bad. If I look at it more like a resource that gets built up during a combo the more it's used, then trading some damage to do some interesting resets doesn't seem so bad. It's still an awkward button to work into combos and whiffs on lights a lot of the time. I've got some suggestions I think might improve it.

1. Reverse the order of gravity changes so that the first use of jmk[2] pulls BB down fastest. This would make the button pretty broken since in neutral it would be a lot like Fukua j.hk. It would also allow for easy conversions off of instant overhead j.mk and big damage combos, probably bigger damage than retail jmk[2]. In short, probably not a good idea.

2. Allow the gravity to be selectable by doing up/neutral/down on the stick. Probably more broken than suggestion 1.

3. Adjust how much the opponent is knocked upward or downward to match BB's gravity change changes. If on the third use it pulled downward, even a little bit, that would make it a lot less frustrating to use against basically everyone. I see it letting BB unexpectedly pull characters down to the ground for a high/low/throw/whatever reset or combo extension. BB yanking people out of the air would also look pretty cool too.

4. If BB drops his combo in the middle of an air chain don't reset jmk[2]'s gravity until the air chain ends. It would make the increased gravity useful for midair resets. Also prevents BB from awkwardly floating away and probably dying if he drops his combo.
 
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Cadenza said:
So you want to buff big band again?

His jMK2 isn't the best feeling thing, I wouldn't mind it being changed again. I don't think he needs another buff, though. Happy?
 
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Jim Groovester said:
So maybe Big Band's new jmk[2] isn't so bad. If I look at it more like a resource that gets built up during a combo the more it's used, then trading some damage to do some interesting resets doesn't seem so bad.
[snip]
I've got some suggestions I think might improve it.
It's a NERF. It's not SUPPOSED to improve him. :^P I just want it to be the nerf that people are most comfortable with.

Dolfinh said:
Goddamn this shit has eluded me for two years
It helps to play the game, I hear.
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Do you mean Survival?
It's still setup on the game side as "these fights in this order", it's not "this fight over again 10x then Marie". So it eventually ends. I could see about making it not end, but that's extra code which means extra bugs. And I could see about making it not end with Marie, but that just seems strange? If the community would prefer it, though, I'm open to that.

If modifying Survival mode could introduce bugs, would a seperate "Endless" game mode be possible instead? An unlimited stream of random opponents until either death or quit? I mostly play offline and being able to marathon fights would be very neat.
 
Mike_Z said:
It helps to play the game, I hear.
DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN.
Shall we talk about your 2jMP knowledge? :^)
 
I still don't like m shadow or holding shadows. Holding shadows is more of a "I don't like holding them" now than anything, but what I still really care about is old m shadow. I've played with new m shadow a lot and I just don't like it (it was really fun before the change to its range). As an assist it's only really good for crazy looking combo extensions, or some teammate specific confirms. Her only real general assists were l/m shadow and drill, but the new m shadow feels incredibly lackluster for neutral so it's down to l shadow and drill as choices. The hitbox is too small to do anything to anyone who isn't on the ground. It doesn't feel good to use.

It's just... I thought I remembered it being said that the reason Guilty Gear devs did such a good job at Guilty Gear was because they didn't take away a thing players liked, they instead balanced around it to make things fair. If players got used to a broken thing, that the best thing to do was to tone down the broken thing while still making it fair and fun. For me, I got used to a thing that felt fun, using m shadow at neutral as an assist, but now the thing I like, that I've been playing with for like a year and a half, has been extracted from the game entirely. It's not simply a nerf, like to Bella's MGR or Deflector (which I didn't like but didn't open my mouth about very much), it's a dead up removal of a move I enjoyed using. I really hope it doesn't stay, that Mike can find an alternative balance option.
 
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thing with that idea

He wanted the m shadow vortex removed completely because it was boring and strong.


After playing this patch. i stopped playing fukua for a few things.

1. L shadow not breaking armor. I was open to trying out the experiment, I tried it and honestly that was prolly the #2 change i was still iffy about. on to #1 which adds on to what zidiane was saying.

I still don't like holding shadows. Holding shadows is more of a "I don't like holding them"

Shadows being held without doing c.mp c.hp is -20. This is fine till you get to the part about burst baits. burst nullifies shadow, if the opponent doesn't burst and you hold the shadow a good number of people can punish it.

I know you had something on the list, I understand that. From what I tried playing of fukua in this build, she feels rather stiff when it comes to holding shadows and ultimately, unpolished.

One thing i thought would be cool is during M shadow's slam you can set up a shadow of your choosing to make a proper set up.
 
Cadenza said:
One thing i thought would be cool is during M shadow's slam you can set up a shadow of your choosing to make a proper set up.
This translates to 8 way mixup setups solo without spending a bar or on a team still having an assist that gives you time to set up. That's REALLY strong. The fact that she gets these setups in the first place is crazy, AND some of the damage nerfs that sonic recommended were revised to give her a little more damage back.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
This translates to 8 way mixup setups solo without spending a bar or on a team still having an assist that gives you time to set up. That's REALLY strong. The fact that she gets these setups in the first place is crazy, AND some of the damage nerfs that sonic recommended were revised to give her a little more damage back.

Oh please no!
 
Zidiane said:
fukua stuff.
Cadenza said:
more stuff
I agree with these 2. Before, Fukua was my "best" character doing the most work. Now she does less work than robo and parasoul. I already have teams that dropped her that I'm working on. M shadow, the overall damage reduction, my shadows being hit off screen by every projectile or assist, can't break armor assists... it's just too much stuff that happened all at once to change her playstyle. Sure holding shadows is super fun, but it feels like her playstyle SOLELY revolves around cr. mp, hp xx shadow hold xx high low mixup.

Also, since shadows go the same distance as before, I have a lot of trouble finding shadow combo extensions since after you relaunch holding a shadow, it gets left behind off screen and doesn't reach you/opponent anymore. So I'm forced to keep the combo super short or cross up somewhere. So even as a combo extension, it's not very good. Maybe if shadow didn't go past walls it would help?

Is she a rush down character or a zoner now? She feels like neither. I'm losing to Painwheels now with Fukua when I used to eat PWs for breakfast.

I understand she had a lot of complaints and needed a nerf so I'm not saying "RAWR DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING", and it is still only 1 week so it just might take time getting used to which I'm definitely willing to take. That's just the nature of balance updates.

Adapt, Evolve, Conquer!
 
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Peacock bothers me a lot right now. She doesn't feel complete to me, like there's too much counter play to what makes her "good".

What makes her good:
-High damage output on hit. The best in the game
-High meter build from zoning
-Bodies new players
-She controls the screen, but only in very short burts
-Bursting against her puts her fullscreen, which is a good spot for her
-Fullscreen confirms off certain moves/zoning patterns with the use of 2 meters or charged level 3 item drop.
-Bomb -> argus is a top 2 assist killer next to counter venom super

What maker her bad:
-Her reversal is a 50/50 guess, except its not. Jumping beats all of them, making L and M gun jokes.

-M gun is 20f, making it way too easy to PBGC bait it, jump over it, do a 50/50 and still block in time, etc. It can also be low profiled by some moves, like Squigly cr.lk and cr.mp, which is unfair to the character who already loses to jumping.

-Item drop is amazing, but it sucks, and as it is now it makes or breaks peacock. If you do M item drop, and the opponent chills from fullscreen, its true peacock gets to build a decent amount of meter and do a little bit of chip, but as soon as item drop goes to level 2 you just run forward and block everything. Now that she's committed to level 2 item drop the recovery on it is way too high which lets the entire cast break the gap really easily. So to counter play that you need to drop the item once you see its not working right away, but when you do that the opponent moves forward through the bomb patterns with no problems.

Also, if she does item drop and you make her hold a block string, she can't drop the item. The change to item drop not letting you drop it until you leave blockstun or w/e it was, I'm sorry I don't 100% remember the change, screws over peacock way too hard. You can force her to charge level 2/3 item drop removing it from play.

-Too many supers/specials/assists counter her zoning.

It's not a game of let me think about the patterns and then figure out how to get around it. It's a game of, let me call brass assist once and move in, let me do arm when I see her throw one bomb and I think she's gonna throw a second one, let me do bff, let me giant step, let me sniper, let me bypass, let me shoot a beam, let me do car, let me reflect. Why is there so much counter play??? Why does peacock have the worst defense in the game if there are so many ways to beat it? Why does peacock have to stop zoning and move away putting herself in the corner where she can't get out every bomb pattern? Everything is a risk with her, it gets unfair very fast. She gets bodied for zoning, she gets bodied for the opponent getting in, getting in is really easy a lot of the time.

This is very much not the case for the runaway character, who is supposed(?) to have weak reversal options, but was blessed with an invincible super to dhc out of, has an armored normal, a lets trade in my favor special, an anti air special, etc.

There's more, but maybe that will help give an idea of why peacock players feel like she's a bit weak? I can't see how people think she's an amazing S tier character. I can see how people think she's good, but to me she's been a bottom 3 character of mine for a while...
 
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MegamanDS said:
I agree with these 2. Before, Fukua was my "best" character doing the most work. Now she does less work than robo and parasoul. I already have teams that dropped her that I'm working on. M shadow, the overall damage reduction, my shadows being hit off screen by every projectile or assist, can't break armor assists... it's just too much stuff that happened all at once to change her playstyle. Sure holding shadows is super fun, but it feels like her playstyle SOLELY revolves around cr. mp, hp xx shadow hold xx high low mixup.
I'm okay with her not being able to do as much work as easily, that's fine. I also think the opponent being able to hit shadows, while a bit annoying, is a fine change (though I'd like it if shadows released instantly were intangible but holding them makes them hittable, leaving her with potential to use them as zoning tools still).
 
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The change that made robo stop summoning heads as an assist if the point gets hit is awful. I would risk taking hits to get all 3 heads. Now its unnecessarily difficult to set up when she just stops at 1 or 2 and I never know how many she has.

edit: Also Filia does not need hairball cancels on block. Come on....
 
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dekillsage said:
The change that made robo stop summoning heads as an assist if the point gets hit is awful. I would risk taking hits to get all 3 heads. Now its unnecessarily difficult to set up when she just stops at 1 or 2 and I never know how many she has.
For what it's worth I played a lot of sets with missile assist before that change, and I was strongly considering switching to mine if it stayed the way it was. I would call the assist from fullscreen, move in to pressure the opponent, and if I got hit they would carry me fullscreen with a combo and still pick up the assist for a happy birthday. There was basically no amount of distance that you could put between yourself and the assist to make yourself safe from a happy birthday, and the extra risk was so big that I found myself wanting retail missile assist back instead.
 
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