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For what it's worth I played a lot of sets with missile assist before that change, and I was strongly considering switching to mine if it stayed the way it was. I would call the assist from fullscreen, move in to pressure the opponent, and if I got hit they would carry me fullscreen with a combo and still pick up the assist for a happy birthday. There was basically no amount of distance that you could put between yourself and the assist to make yourself safe from a happy birthday, and the extra risk was so big that I found myself wanting retail missile assist back instead.
-Land a hit, go for a cross up mix up, you get 3 heads guaranteed whether they hit you or not for a reset attempt.
-Kill a character, call assist, cross up the corpse so they end up facing the other way.
-Call assist, stand behind it.
There are tons of ways to set up the head, calling missiles and then going in is the wrong way to do it. But now not only is that still wrong, because the assist doesn't even set up, now all my other head summoning strategies not involving landing a full combo and calling it during that full combo are way worse.
Fair enough! I'll try those out the next time I get to play beta, although the first two situations don't happen so often for me as a zoner, and the last one seems like it would be pretty much unchanged because it's likely to result in them hitting your assist before hitting your point.
Fair enough! I'll try those out the next time I get to play beta, although the first two situations don't happen so often for me as a zoner, and the last one seems like it would be pretty much unchanged because it's likely to result in them hitting your assist before hitting your point.
I also play peacock with that assist~
With peacock you can
-land a hit, call assist, get 2 heads launch item drop walk behind. For a mix up/ safe 3rd head call.
-grab -> call assist -> teleport or
-grab -> call assist + argus
standing behind the assist as peacock = you touch it and you get shot. Unless you're fighting beowulf, bella, fukua, parasoul, etc etc oh man nvm ~
Yeah, I guess? I don't think it's necessarily bad to ask for changes even though the character is ahead in the nerf/buff calculus.
It escaped me before but what the gravity changes for jmk[2] do is give Big Band a sort of niche use, mid combo, crummy downward air dash. The gist of my suggestions was to make it better at doing that. That would probably be a buff to Big Band but it also makes the button more interesting than the 'pass execution test, get damage' button it is in retail.
If the point of the jmk[2] changes is just to make the button worse (and it looks like it is), then, welp, too bad for me I guess.
Also, if she does item drop and you make her hold a block string, she can't drop the item. The change to item drop not letting you drop it until you leave blockstun or w/e it was, I'm sorry I don't 100% remember the change, screws over peacock way too hard. You can force her to charge level 2/3 item drop removing it from play.
If I remember correctly, if you let go of the button while you're still in blockstun, the item doesn't actually drop until X frames after you leave blockstun. If you wait until blockstun ends then drop it, it comes out immediately, so in theory you can use it the same way as before the nerf, it's just more difficult. In practice though you're never gonna drop it 1st frame out of blockstun, so whether you're in blockstun when you let go of the button or not, it comes out later.
There's more, but maybe that will help give an idea of why peacock players feel like she's a bit weak? I can't see how people think she's an amazing S tier character. I can see how people think she's good, but to me she's been a bottom 3 character of mine for a while...
I've discussed this with you in private, but part of the issue is that you can't JUST balance around high level play. Peacock is really oppressive against people who have no idea how to play and don't have any idea what they're doing. Ideally if Peacock got buffs, I would prefer it to be in a way that didn't affect those people. I can't think of any straight buff that would do that, but you could maybe nerf one thing and buff another thing and end up okay. Nerfing her damage would be one idea. You could also do something like increase the cooldown on George at the Air Show. That would weaken her ability to spam bombs from full screen, which I don't think would really affect high level play since when I play you you're always in before I have the chance to throw two planes anyways.
If I remember correctly, if you let go of the button while you're still in blockstun, the item doesn't actually drop until X frames after you leave blockstun. If you wait until blockstun ends then drop it, it comes out immediately, so in theory you can use it the same way as before the nerf, it's just more difficult. In practice though you're never gonna drop it 1st frame out of blockstun, so whether you're in blockstun when you let go of the button or not, it comes out later.
I've discussed this with you in private, but part of the issue is that you can't JUST balance around high level play. Peacock is really oppressive against people who have no idea how to play and don't have any idea what they're doing. Ideally if Peacock got buffs, I would prefer it to be in a way that didn't affect those people. I can't think of any straight buff that would do that, but you could maybe nerf one thing and buff another thing and end up okay. Nerfing her damage would be one idea. You could also do something like increase the cooldown on George at the Air Show. That would weaken her ability to spam bombs from full screen, which I don't think would really affect high level play since when I play you you're always in before I have the chance to throw two planes anyways.
Thank you. It's very difficult to do ~_~ I've had plenty of matches where I would let go of the button to only be stuck in blockstun and then I end up getting hit right after zzz
As she is right now, and how she would be if she did end up getting better, she would still be oppressive to new players. So I don't know how I feel about balancing her around both groups of players, but I do understand that concern.
... I also think airshow could be made a tiny bit better =p
If I remember correctly, if you let go of the button while you're still in blockstun, the item doesn't actually drop until X frames after you leave blockstun. If you wait until blockstun ends then drop it, it comes out immediately, so in theory you can use it the same way as before the nerf, it's just more difficult. In practice though you're never gonna drop it 1st frame out of blockstun, so whether you're in blockstun when you let go of the button or not, it comes out later.
If this mechanic itself were to be looked at in terms of Peacock's overall balance, consider if doing a pushblock lowered that automatic-drop from 10 frames to 5 frames once blockstun ends. That's probably just execution error on my part, though. If I get to a point where I want the PBGC I will forego the item drop and just try to get out of pressure.
edit: Also Filia does not need hairball cancels on block. Come on....
A lot of characters don't need "X". It just let's her stay in your face a little bit longer, makes airball more than just a movement tool I guess. I don't think it's that great, but at this point I'll take what I can. Feel me?
One of peacock's biggest glaring weaknesses, IMO, is the fact that she can't deal with people being right above her. Stuff like j.HP is great air-to-air at a good distance, but up close, her slower air normals tend to lose out. She has a much harder time anti airing people after the nerfs shadow got to blockstun and less aggressive tracking. Her grounded anti-airs like c.LK will just flat out loss to aerials with bigger hitboxes coming down on you like double j.HP or cerebella j.MP, and MP Bang's startup makes it a liability to try. Not to mention stuff like Robo's c.LP can be chained into itself on whiff so it's much easier to use as an anti air compared to peacock's c.LK.
Maybe try reverting one of the shadow nerfs or making one of her aerial lights faster? I've also kind of toyed with the idea of making L teleport or L shadow something different. Maybe have it be an alternative to her fake teleport, but instead of summoning a george under the opponent, it would drop a shadow right on top of the opponent. This way she has some sorta of invincible antiair but don't allow peacock to combo off it to keep it from being too strong.
One of peacock's biggest glaring weaknesses, IMO, is the fact that she can't deal with people being right above her. Stuff like j.HP is great air-to-air at a good distance, but up close, her slower air normals tend to lose out. She has a much harder time anti airing people after the nerfs shadow got to blockstun and less aggressive tracking. Her grounded anti-airs like c.LK will just flat out loss to aerials with bigger hitboxes coming down on you like double j.HP or cerebella j.MP, and MP Bang's startup makes it a liability to try. Not to mention stuff like Robo's c.LP can be chained into itself on whiff so it's much easier to use as an anti air compared to peacock's c.LK.
Maybe try reverting one of the shadow nerfs or making one of her aerial lights faster? I've also kind of toyed with the idea of making L teleport or L shadow something different. Maybe have it be an alternative to her fake teleport, but instead of summoning a george under the opponent, it would drop a shadow right on top of the opponent. This way she has some sorta of invincible antiair but don't allow peacock to combo off it to keep it from being too strong.
Tbf though I can think of a couple characters that have a hard time when dealing with characters directly above them. Peacock, Squigly (kinda, her DP isn't that great, her anti airs are kind meh, meaning that her best anti-air requires a bar or a resource), and Parasoul come to mind immediately (which is why Val - Para MU is "Is Valentine above Parasoul").
I'm not sure if that's intentional (dealing with opponents directly above your head), but these three come to mind immediately with that problem so I don't think it's exclusive to peacock. Also, the same time peacock could probably get A FEW buffs that would help keep people out better. However, I always saw her as more of the rushdown zoner while Robo was the Keep away zoner. That might just be the result of what I see people play but I thought the whole deal was that you were supposed to get in on your terms and have the stuff on the screen back you up (see the fact that none of it disappears when she's hit).
I guess the main things I would like to see, if it doesn't break anything.
Increase jLP hitbox to fit animation better
Less cool down on walking bomb specifically
Marie out of endless (I kid, but not really though)
10 frames to 5 frames
If this mechanic itself were to be looked at in terms of Peacock's overall balance, consider if doing a push-block lowered that automatic-drop from 10 frames to 5 frames once blockstun ends. That's probably just execution error on my part, though. If I get to a point where I want the PBGC I will forego the item drop and just try to get out of pressure. ~psychopath
And quick question why does tele feint make a bomb appear on your person at any given time. I get upset about it to me at least it feels really stupid. If I could get at least some explanation to that, that would probably make me not upset as to why it's there. That all being said I hate peacock very much but I do understand that she has some problems. But like Mcpeanuts said balancing a character like this around high tier play is gonna be difficult cause she's kinda a newer player killer already.
And quick question why does tele fient make a bomb appear on your person at any given time. I get upset about it to me at least it feels really stupid. If I could get at least some explination to that, that would probably make me not upset as to why it's there.
Tbf though I can think of a couple characters that have a hard time when dealing with characters directly above them.............. Parasoul comes to mind immediately
Tbf though I can think of a couple characters that have a hard time when dealing with characters directly above them. Peacock, Squigly (kinda, her DP isn't that great, her anti airs are kind meh, meaning that her best anti-air requires a bar or a resource), and Parasoul come to mind immediately (which is why Val - Para MU is "Is Valentine above Parasoul").
I'm not sure if that's intentional (dealing with opponents directly above your head), but these three come to mind immediately with that problem so I don't think it's exclusive to peacock. Also, the same time peacock could probably get A FEW buffs that would help keep people out better. However, I always saw her as more of the rushdown zoner while Robo was the Keep away zoner. That might just be the result of what I see people play but I thought the whole deal was that you were supposed to get in on your terms and have the stuff on the screen back you up (see the fact that none of it disappears when she's hit).
I guess the main things I would like to see, if it doesn't break anything.
Increase jLP hitbox to fit animation better
Less cool down on walking bomb specifically
Marie out of endless (I kid, but not really though)
10 frames to 5 frames
If this mechanic itself were to be looked at in terms of Peacock's overall balance, consider if doing a push-block lowered that automatic-drop from 10 frames to 5 frames once blockstun ends. That's probably just execution error on my part, though. If I get to a point where I want the PBGC I will forego the item drop and just try to get out of pressure. ~psychopath
And quick question why does tele feint make a bomb appear on your person at any given time. I get upset about it to me at least it feels really stupid. If I could get at least some explanation to that, that would probably make me not upset as to why it's there. That all being said I hate peacock very much but I do understand that she has some problems. But like Mcpeanuts said balancing a character like this around high tier play is gonna be difficult cause she's kinda a newer player killer already.
But even those characters you mentioned have more going for them than peacock. Squigly's j.LK is pretty great air-to-air as is both of Parasoul's air lights. Squigly also has the option of spending meter on SBO or Daisy Pusher to punish people jumping in on her. Parasoul, despite the deadzone it has behind her, at least has an invincible attack that hits vertically.
In regards to the teleport feint, it's there to prevent you from being able to teleport crossup while holding an shadow. If you are asking why the george tracks you, it would be PRETTY BAD if it didn't. It's safe on block but if peacock does it right next to you, you can actually grab her before the george even explodes.
Peacock already has this. It's called uncharged item drop.
Difference is uncharged shadow drop has a pretty good chance of resulting in a trade (or complete whiff) a lot of the time. This would let you drop a shadow and be invincible for a short period of time without the risk of a trade, which is why I suggested you shouldn't be able to combo off of it.
Let's pretend fake teleport bomb drop thing doesn't exist.
I call a Shadow, from across the stage, I do H Teleport.
As soon as I cross over from fullscreen with the H Teleport, I release the shadow and drop the item on them.
This gives me a 50/50 with M or H Teleport from any range (cross up / fake cross up), and it's completely safe when I drop it, and it's a very good starter.
By adding fake teleports input to be "If you are holding P (Shadow) and attempt a teleport" that's no longer possible.
I'm not really understanding the "shadow crossup" thing, also air george is fine. or are they all named george.
air to air's aren't the same as anti-airs, I would make peacocks jLP better @RemiKz
Edit: Item drop? Also I fail to see how it prevents it.
Basically, you get a teleport feint by holding any punch button while inputting a teleport. This means that you can't teleport behind your opponent while holding a shadow because every shadow command uses a punch button. This is to prevent you from being able to crossup your opponent while you hold a shadow over them.
Every george has a name technically. George's day out = LK, Boxcar george = MK, George at the airshow = HK.
Air-to-air can totally be considered an antiair if you do it with the intent of beating someone out of the air.
Item drop is another name people call peacock's shadow of impending doom
I've discussed this with you in private, but part of the issue is that you can't JUST balance around high level play. Peacock is really oppressive against people who have no idea how to play and don't have any idea what they're doing. Ideally if Peacock got buffs, I would prefer it to be in a way that didn't affect those people. I can't think of any straight buff that would do that, but you could maybe nerf one thing and buff another thing and end up okay. Nerfing her damage would be one idea. You could also do something like increase the cooldown on George at the Air Show. That would weaken her ability to spam bombs from full screen, which I don't think would really affect high level play since when I play you you're always in before I have the chance to throw two planes anyways.
While we spoke about it in private I'll share it in public so others can take it into account.
I don't know what could be done to alleviate that, but that's kinda true for all skill disparities. Good players body bad players. Are the bad peacocks being oppressively strong over other bad players? Is that an actual problem? When people talk about new players being cannon fodder I think they have this misconception that doesn't account for skill differences that much.
Speaking from personal experience as I dove into the genre with zero prior conditioning, I was overwhelmed with dealing with not only my opponents but my opponent's assists as well. There was a seemingly insurmountable amount of pressure that I had no idea how to get out of. But I've since graduated from that beginner skill rung and I am capable of not only defending myself, but turning a situation around with reversals. In terms of Peacocks being a newbie-filter, yes that's true. But it's no more true than good players being proficient with their own characters putting a new player through the assist and mixup blender. It's just more obvious for a new player to despise a better peacock because getting past their wall seems more impossible than getting out of a reset hurricane.
A lot of characters don't need "X". It just let's her stay in your face a little bit longer, makes airball more than just a movement tool I guess. I don't think it's that great, but at this point I'll take what I can. Feel me?
It lets her airball whenever she wants for free and if it hits you convert meterless and if its blocked you get free pressure??? Mehhhh
It's a NERF. It's not SUPPOSED to improve him. :^P I just want it to be the nerf that people are most comfortable with.
What exactly did you consider the problem? I kinda liked having a combo tool that rewarded really good timing. I also kinda don't like how the change feels, but that could be cause I am way to use to the old one.
What exactly did you consider the problem? I kinda liked having a combo tool that rewarded really good timing. I also kinda don't like how the change feels, but that could be cause I am way to use to the old one.
jMKx2 made combos too long
that's why it's much faster now in the beta
It's just... I thought I remembered it being said that the reason Guilty Gear devs did such a good job at Guilty Gear was because they didn't take away a thing players liked, they instead balanced around it to make things fair.
They seldom took away things that were broken. And when they did, witness GGSlash's Eddie not having unblockables with the shadow, people complained, and they put it back, and then you got broken AC Eddie.
I don't mind M shadow at neutral at all, but the M shadow repeatable reset is not something I want to continue to exist. Aside from like, M Shadow sticks around for years on hit and entirely prevents you from using another M shadow in the next combo if you start it before it disappears, which I think is a terrible idea...what else you got, then, SGC?
I can easily make shadows not get hit by bursts.
@dekillsage regarding Airball dash cancel on block
Does it make her more fun, though? :^) Cuz I'm still not seeing busted, I'm just seeing "I'm not used to it".
Also what's the opinion about Birthdays vs getting all 3 heads?
I'll respond more tomorrow, just mentioning these before I forgot.
re: airball dash cancel (going to be restating stuff people have said but we're talking about it again so w/e)
I still don't believe, and no one has shown me anything to prove otherwise, that filia gets any more out of airball dash cancel than she does with popular filia assists (bomber, drill, etc).
It lets her airball whenever she wants for free and if it hits you convert meterless and if its blocked you get free pressure???
Bomber + dash forward/airdash pressure/whatever accomplishes the same thing. Airball doesn't have invincibility and doesn't really trade in her favor or anything so its not like you can't contest it or antiair it or anything; I would hardly say she can airball "whenever she wants for free". It's still extremely punishable on whiff so the only time you would really use it (besides L for certain approaches) would be when you can already be making them block, and at that range she already has plenty of other approach tools (as well as now being vulnerable to pbgc if she commits to a long multihitting move like airball). Pretty much every filia I've talked to has said that it doesn't really give anything to filia + assist, so its basically a buff for solo filia, and seeing as how pretty much every top player (including you) has written off filia's weaknesses as "just cover them with an assist" I don't see anything wrong with giving filia WITHOUT an assist something to keep up pressure with.
or drill, or drag n bite, or (insert multihitting, forward-moving assist here), but that's the POINT is that hairball doesn't do anything an assist doesn't and every discussion of how good filia is assumes that you have one of these assists anyway.
jMKx2 made combos too long
that's why it's much faster now in the beta
Yes but along with that Mike fundamentally changed how it works. Now, with gravity scaling, it's sort of like doing j.HP fastfalls into c.LP, along with nerfing the damage. I don't particularly like it, but maybe just nerfing the damage and leaving it like that would be a good solution?? After all, j.MK is CRAZY fast now compared to retail, and the loops would do less damage and go by quickly. I can't get used to the retail version now, lol.
There's the thing I said before, which was make hitting with M shadow in neutral give normal hitstun, but in a combo it could have completely different hitstun. It could push the opponent away (like the m shadow before the new one) to prevent it from being used to vortex loop, or it could just keep them in hitstun until they touch the ground (which may look weird), or even cause a techable knockdown if used in a combo. Any of those would keep old neutral m shadow while changing nothing else about it. There are a couple moves in the game that give different hitstun depending on how it's used, like Bella's j.mp, the new Fortune axe kick change, Eliza's s.hpx3, Squigly's s.mk, etc., so I think this kind of solution would fit well.
Another option might be to increase the startup frames of m shadow just enough to prevent her from being able get under the opponent. Though I'm not sure if that's satisfactory, since the intention is to nerf her assist vortex potential as well?
There's one other idea, which is probably a strange idea, but you could make comboing into m shadow give the new m shadow, and using it at neutral give old m shadow. This would keep everything everyone likes about both shadows and still prevent the thing you wanna prevent. I would have the most fun with this one, but I don't really know if this would be generally pleasing.
There's one other idea, which is probably a strange idea, but you could make comboing into m shadow give the new m shadow, and using it at neutral give old m shadow. This would keep everything everyone likes about both shadows and still prevent the thing you wanna prevent. I would have the most fun with this one, but I don't really know if this would be generally pleasing.
I was thinking the same thing. Not sure how that would work out though at all but if its possible i would care to try that.
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